Southampton-2

[LBIA]

Looks like Eastern putting the Saab 2000 on both the morning and evening weekday SOU-LBA-ABZ rotations next summer.

[Rivet Joint]

https://mobile.twitter.com/SOU_Airport/status/943861828358213632?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7C twgr%5Etweet

[Planespeaking]

Meanwhile out on the ramp!

[stewyb]

I'm sure the airport only ever spends money on shops, toilets and where to buy another latte!

[southside bobby]

You are not realistic with the comments..
SOU probably derives as good a return from retail as it does from those movements out on the ramp!.

[stewyb]

You are probably quite right, its just that some of us would like to see a little more money put in to air side facilities to aid future growth and profitability!

[southside bobby]

Certainly..would be with you from that viewpoint.

[Reversethrustset]

Maybe they don't WANT to invest in airside improvements to aid further growth? You can want it all you like but your desires are irrelevant.

[stewyb]

Quick question, is there any particular reason why Flybe use the E75 on the Nantes service?

[gkmeech]

This is a Birmingham based aircraft that flies BHX-NTE-SOU-NTE-BHX

[adfly]

Southampton handled 143,587 passengers in November, representing a not inconsiderable 5% decrease on last year (could the timing of school holidays have influenced this?). Some basic route analysis below:

Alicante - 68 pax / 87%
Bergerac - 61 pax / 79%
Cork - 45 pax / 62%
Dusseldorf - 48 pax / 61%
Munich - 21 pax / 43% (assuming all E145)
Nantes - 51 pax / 65%
Paris CDG - 58 pax / 74%

Data from here as always: https://www.caa.co.uk/Data-and-analysis/UK-aviation-market/Airports/Datasets/UK-airport-data/

[stewyb]

Loads on Easy Geneva doing well and I know they had a full A320 last Sunday. Now that Flybe are ending the Lyon route, this may be an opportunity for EZY to also add Lyon/Grenoble next winter for those resorts in the southern French Alps

[canberra97]

Or even HOP to operate SOU to LYON considering they are expanding operations at Lyon, wishful thinking maybe but it would have been great to have entered 2018 with the announcement of a new airline and possibly new routes at SOU.

I can't see 2018 reaching the same level of passengers as 2017 unless more flights are added.

I really hope that EasyJet make a success of the GVA route and hopefully the airline does consider other opportunities from SOU.

[RW20]

Disappointing that pax figures are down,but not surprising considering the lack of any further route announcements.I can't see much more being added in the foreseeable future,unless the airport is significantly upgraded airside.Investment is needed,but sadly this has been quoted many times over recent years,to no effect!.

[canberra97]

RW20

We all share your enthusiasm for Southampton Airport and we all wish the airport well and I think that we all agree that substantial airside investment is needed but as much as yourself and Stweyb continuously bring it up nothing is going to happen unless we hear otherwise from the management at Southampton Airport.

Like it or not nothing will happen until it happens and it doesn't matter how many times it's mentioned on here there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it so seeing that it is 2018 now and nothing came of the Autumn statement when the management initially said that they would release details of airport investment but it hasn't happened so I guess that we all have to accept it as hard as it sounds :-(

[stewyb]

No more discussions on airside investment from me, I promise, however I can foresee EasyJet adding 1 or 2 further destinations in the near future

[A320.b744]

As has been mentioned several times, SOU-GVA is operated by easyJet Switzerland, which has its own team of route strategists. easyJet Switzerland flies to several destinations not served by easyJet UK, and given the close proximity of SOU to both BRS and LGW, I doubt that easyJet UK will commence any routes from SOU in the near future. It is also worth noting that even if easyJet were to add more routes from SOU, they would have to be from one of the 22 operating bases that aren't located in the South of England. There is no chance that easyJet would commence a non-base route.

[stewyb]

Press release from the Geneva launch:

Ali Gayward, General Manager at easyJet said: “We’re delighted, today’s flight is almost full, and we’ve got lots of dates throughout the season that are showing a huge amount of demand – we’re expecting this to be a really successful flight. We’re starting off with three times a week for the ski season, but if it proves successful, which we expect it to be, then we’ll begin to look at what else we can do in the future.”


Not saying it will happen but wouldn't bet against it just yet!

[OldBristolFreighter]

Southampton has been my local airport for decades (think DC-3,Heron etc. up to Q400) and is always my preference when a direct flight isavailable, regardless of operator. (AF to Paris fondly remembered for a fullmeal service!).
This year Munich is likely to be one of my destinations, sothe BM service seemed to fit my needs. However, a quick glance seems to indicate appalling timekeeping alongwith excessive cancellations. I alsorecall this route has some sort of subsidy which could, assumedly, be withdrawnat short notice.
I know this is a rumour site but could anyone with realknowledge (not to be confused with wishful thinking) of the BM situation give meany advice please?

[The Nutts Mutts]

A320.b744

I'm not taking issue with what you've written, I'd just like to ask for a little more information about how this works in practice out of personal curiosity?
I'm assuming that even if the two companies have separate route planning departments as you say, there must be some level of cooperation to avoid duplication of routes or unintended internal competition?
And how does it work when a route is flown by both EZS and EZY? Among other airports, this will be the case from SOU in March and April following the season extension with the Tuesday and Thursday flights flown by EZS but the Saturday flight flown by EZY. So does the Saturday flight technically become a new EZY route as they haven't flown it before, or do EZS when planning the schedule pick up the phone to their EZY counterparts and ask them to provide an A319 to fill a gap in their schedule?
Just interested to know how it all works. Until I read it on here I always assumed that EZS would provide operational equipment and staff on their Swiss AOC, but that all schedule, marketing and other corporate decisions would be made centrally for the whole easyJet group.

[RW20]

canberra97
The reason we bring up the airside improvements is simply to illustrate that airlines including HOP etc are not going to happen at Southampton until things change.Indeed the terminal is probably at its max for present operations. Queing outside to enter arrivals with fuel burning fumes is not idea( returning from Ibiza this Summer),Easy have dipped the water at Soton,but like many before it's short term only.
I've flown from SOU many times, domestic seems OK,but higher numbers on Sun routes is another story.

[canberra97]

But we are all aware of that aren't we!

And as far as the press release from EasyJet 'which we've all previously seen' at the launch of the Geneva route well that's just your average reply your always hear in those situations, don't get me wrong I would love to see you EasyJet expand on the Geneva operations to other destinations from Southampton but I generally take those sort of press releases with a huge pinch of salt!

I'm always realistic as well as being optimistic but I never put two and two together and assume anything until it actually happens or at least made official so for now it's just another waiting game to see what new destinations or airlines we can expect at SOU during 2018.

[canberra97]

canberra97

BTW HOP wouldn't have any issues at SOU regarding airside infrastructure as they have E145 and E170 in their fleet and they are expanding their network from Lyon.

[Buster the Bear]

I think with the success of the Cork route, a service to Dublin under the Aer Lingus Regional banner would be an ideal fit for Southampton, but only if the timings permitted connections to the east coast of N America.

[Albert Hall]

So an Aer Lingus Regional service operated by Stobart Air, which would compete with the Flybe SOU-DUB service, an airline which also has a franchise agreement with.....oh - Stobart Air? I'd never say never, but that would make for some very interesting dynamics between the two airlines. I'd be offering long odds on that happening if I was Ladbrokes!

[canberra97]

Considering that BMI have stuck it out on the SOU to Munich route for nearly two years now and with consistent loads the airline must be happy with the economics of the route to have sustained it to this point.

With the apparent success of SOU to Munich I am rather surprised that BMI haven't announced any other route or routes even from Southampton, the airline could possibly fly to business destinations currently unserved from the airport and BMI could have a similar but smaller network to their Bristol operation.

Possible destinations from BMI could be Brussels, Copenhagen, Frankfurt, Milan, Zurich all feeding into Star Alliance hubs except for Milan.

BMI could set up quite a niche network from Southampton without having to operate any routes that would overlap or be in direct competition with Flybe.

[Tagron]

No need for an Aer Lingus Regional service to DUB for transatlantic connections because Aer Lingus already offer connections to 13 USA/Canada destinations using the Flybe SOU-DUB services. They are for sale not on the Flybe website but on the Aer Lingus website for which purpose they carry EI flight codes.

This is not a new arrangement. I don't know when it started but I think it was at least two years ago.

[paulc]

I did that route last May and it was on time both ways. Lot of empty seats though

[Soton27]

Do you think Iberia Regional could make a go at SOU? They have the right aircraft, and Madrid would be a useful addition to have

[darren1]

Do you think Iberia Regional could make a go at SOU? They have the right aircraft, and Madrid would be a useful addition to have

I’m 100% sure it wouldn't work. Places like BCN, NCE and MXP have all failed.

[The Nutts Mutts]

I also can't see it happening on the basis that IAG wouldn't want to dilute their existing BA/IB routes from LHR. In effect they'd just be competing with themselves.

[Rivet Joint]

https://www.southamptonairport.com/news/blog/2012/12/08/meet-dave-lees-southampton-airport-managing-director/

[canberra97]

But seriously why have all those destinations failed?

Southampton has a large and on the a whole wealthy catchment area that should surely support those destinations along with Madrid.

Those destinations are flown from many regional airports so why such a failure from Southampton, I put it down to the schedules that the quoted routes operated and they inevitably suffered because of it.

If another airline came to SOU an airline which was a household name maybe I am sure that the likes of BCN, MAD, MXP, NCE could work along with VCE.

These are the sort of destinations that we should be seeing from Southampton, it can't be the fact that no one in the airports catchment area don't fly to any of them and those travel to either LGW or LHR would surely use SOU if those destinations with well timed schedules were offered from SOU.

I know I would use such flights because the likes of Bergerac or Limoges lose their appeal once you have visited them at least once.

I hate having to drive past Southampton Airport on my way to LHR to fly to BCN something that I do approximately 6 times a year and I had such high hopes for Vueling when they started SOU to BCN a few years ago and was sad to see them leave.

I wonder if Vueling would ever attempt a return to SOU as they weren't under the ownership of IAG when they did operate from SOU and management may take a different view.

Flybe flew from SOU to NCE for years, why did it abruptly stop when so many other regional flights to France have been successful!

Maybe an Iberia flight from Madrid operated by Air Nostrum during the peak summer could work especially when you hear and see so many Spaniards in our region working, living, inbound Tourism, exchange students, etc.

The route network has so much potential from Southampton and the incumbents are not exploiting that opportunity that's why the airport desperately needs to attract new business from alternative airlines.

[RW20]

There seems to be plenty of destinations not being exploited at Southampton,some have been tried in the past ,but have failed,the question has to be asked is the airport being managed to its full potential? and has there been the investment needed to meet
its potential?

[Soton27]

I agree - the fact that the airport can support daily frequency routes to destinations such as Amsterdam, Nantes, Paris, Dublin, Munich show that it can support them else where to far more popular locations. At the end of the day all that needs to happen is to build some big stands and a starter strip. Southampton/Portsmouth is the UKs eight most populated area, the GVA of Hampshire is equivalent to that of Uruguay - so there is demand, but people choose to go to LHR, LGW and LTN constantly!

[canberra97]

And those traveling from either LGW or LHR or even I hate to say LTN would probably use an equivalent route from Southampton if they were available including myself.

The potential at SOU is huge but it's not being exploited enough and for the destinations I had mentioned earlier the aircraft wouldn't need to be any bigger than the current aircraft operating from the airport so a starter strip wouldn't necessarily be needed although obviously having that strip would be a huge long term advantage for the airport.

[SWBKCB]

Considering that BMI have stuck it out on the SOU to Munich route for nearly two years now and with consistent loads the airline must be happy with the economics of the route to have sustained it to this point.

With the apparent success of SOU to Munich I am rather surprised that BMI haven't announced any other route or routes even from Southampton, the airline could possibly fly to business destinations currently unserved from the airport and BMI could have a similar but smaller network to their Bristol operation.


Maybe BMI the reason BMI aren't doing more, is they know more about the economics of the operation than you do?

[canberra97]

I wasn't in any way suggestion that I know more about the economics of the operation than BMI!

There was no reference in my post to say otherwise, I don't work for BMI so how the hell would I know more about the economics of the operation than BMI!

I was just making remarks based around BMI and SOU and considering you have just way laid into this discussion I suggest that you keep the ridiculous comments like that to yourself.

[SWBKCB]

So why do are say you surprised that BMI aren't doing more from SOU? What's that based on?

[canberra97]

From past history SOU hasn't been that successful in retaining new entrants i.e. Air Berlin, Vueling and even the scheduled flights from Volotea so the fact that BMI have sustained a single route from SOU to MUN for almost two years now the airline must obviously be satisfied with how the route is performing and considering it's just the one route from SOU and the fact that they fly to several business destinations from Bristol that's why I made the comments in my post regarding any possible expansion from SOU on a smaller scale to their operation at Bristol.

I don't think anyone would have thought that BMI would still be on the route and that it has lasted this long looking back at previous attempts by other airlines so the airline are obviously happy with the economics of the route hence my post and the codeshare with Lufthansa is obviously helping to fill the flight.

I'm assuming why your trying to make a point is because this may we'll have something to do with what I had posted on another thread in the past, you saw my username and thought yeah I'll rip into him, I've seen how you work on these threads with other posters but it isn't going to work with me!

[SWBKCB]

C97 - what are you on about? Think your paranoia's showing :ok:

Based on the fact that the route hasn't been dropped, you are assuming it is a success and wonder why BMI haven't expanded.

On the other hand, is it not just as valid to wonder why bmi, with their access to all the data, route planning tools and professionals etc, haven't made any such move?

[canberra97]

I'm not doubting the professionals at BMI all I was putting across in my post was that I would like to have seen them expand on their current one route operation from SOU which has been present for nearly two years where others have given up in far less a time it's nothing more than that, I'm no bleeding expert matey it was a topic that I brought up so I don't know why your being so dogmatic about it and I can't believe that I'm being interrogated and having to explain myself, I'm that type so you know I'm not responding to any more of your posts because I'm not actually interested in what you think.

I'm not paranoid I'm often referred to as arrogant and over confident but paranoid I'm not!

[Planespeaking]

Its supposed to be the season of goodwill to all men. The rest of us are really fed up with this bickering, either grow up or get a room. In the meantime back at SOU!

[Callum Paterson]

I think management plays a significant part here. Compare the three airports owned by AGS. Aberdeen, Glasgow and Southampton. All three have failed to truly embrace low cost airlines. All three are very conservative. All three are very "lazy" when it comes to attracting new airlines. While other airports and airport groups are out there banging on the doors of airline, AGS are sitting back waiting for the phone to ring.

Perhaps it stems from the BAA Heathrow days when airline were banging on their door. Sadly these three airports don't have that luxury. Whither AGS have realised that or not is unclear.

[Rivet Joint]

https://www.southamptonairport.com/media/1960/dave-for-blog.jpg?w=600&h=140

Trust, encouragement, reward, loyalty... satisfaction. That's what I'm... you know. Trust people and they'll be true to you. Treat them greatly, and they will show themselves to be great.

[Rivet Joint]

Spot on. Same management team still in place. Small and dependable profit keeps the pension funds happy.

[MARKEYD]

Just found this link with a local news paper regarding possible expansion from Southampton this summer with " Lolo flights "

sussexlocal.net then type in Southampton airport ( sorry can't seem to get a direct link , don't know if anyone else can )

[canberra97]

If your referring to the Skiathos flight that was ready discussed a few months ago.

Flights by seat only operator LoLo Flights to the Greek island of Skiathos have been on sale since November 2017, flights will be weekly on a Saturday using a chartered Flybe 195.

It's on the Southampton Airport website and has been since the flight was first announced.

[canberra97]

Its supposed to be the season of goodwill to all men. The rest of us are really fed up with this bickering, either grow up or get a room. In the meantime back at SOU!

I appreciate you getting involved and making those comments as the exchange of posts with that guy was really seriously starting to annoy me and I'm glad you helped in putting a stop to it :-) (I know exactly what he was upto).

[MARKEYD]

Canberra , I actually started the original discussion a few months ago when it first stated

I am talking about the article in the magazine dated 11 Dec about possible new routes by Lolo flights to

Almeria , Dubrovnik , Split , Kefalonia , Florence amonst others

[RW20]

MARKEYD
Lolo flights are always going to be at best a whimsical idea,the truth is the destinations mentioned would wholely suit Bournemouth rather then Southampton,and indeed would be tried at Bounemouth if they had the pax base for such destinations.
As mentioned by many on this blog,unless Southampton management step up a few gears ( and on recent times this looks very unlikely) the airport will continue much as it is,that is gain a few airlines the lose them,add a odd destination,invest in retail side,but little else investment airside.Southampton will plod on,but not at the pace it could and should be at.

[MARKEYD]

I agree with everything you have just said

The routes mentioned are far more suited for BOH and some are being trialled this summer with Super break holidays

As said before , Southampton does very well on scheduled flights and will continue to do so Bournemouth the holiday charters

[The Nutts Mutts]

It seems like a very specific destination list considering it's a puff piece article in a local rag. I'd have expected a generic statement along the lines of "we're hoping to expand our offering to more destinations in the future." A list of destinations such as they mentioned in that article would normally come at the official announcement of the new routes.
So I guess they're either getting way ahead of themselves and blurting out daydream thoughts to the press, or there's maybe something in the pipeline.

[RW20]

I think it's the former,pure daydream as it gets!

[stewyb]

I assume a route distance of 1400 miles to Skiathos will mean a restricted payload for the E195, any idea on number of seats available?

[Buster the Bear]

So an Aer Lingus Regional service operated by Stobart Air, which would compete with the Flybe SOU-DUB service, an airline which also has a franchise agreement with.....oh - Stobart Air? I'd never say never, but that would make for some very interesting dynamics between the two airlines. I'd be offering long odds on that happening if I was Ladbrokes!

I just tried to book on the Flybe website, a through flight via Dublin to a number of destinations in N America served by Aer Lingus. Strangely I was unable. Care to tell me how I can do it please? The whole point of my original post remains.

[Jerry123]

You can book through Aer Lingus.

[paulc]

Southampton has often suffered from being over reliant on 1 airline, be it Air UK, BA Express or currently Flybe. It also needs to have a taxiway that removes the backtracking involved when using Rwy 20.

[Reversethrustset]

The backtracking is not an issue because SOU isn't busy enough for it to be an issue. If it had arrivals and departures stacking up then I'd agree with your sentiment.

[canberra97]

But it would make things a lot more easier for operations at SOU if we did have that taxi way especially during busy periods and to be honest it should have been part of the original redevelopment plan back in 1991.

[Reversethrustset]

Well I can't argue with your sentiment that it would make it easier, but then there's easier and there's necessary and right now it's not really necessary, I've operated from SOU airport off and on for 11 years and I've never once had an issue with the backtracking.

[Wycombe]

Think I am right in saying that a taxiway to the 20 threshold would need to be on the eastern side of the runway (ie, via a crossing point at the existing mid-runway taxiway/holding point), as there isn't space to fit one in the other side?

Looking at it in Google Earth, a car park and the 20 ILS glidesplope aerials are in the area where a taxiway would need to go, as far as I can see.

[RW20]

The only way possible for a additional taxiway would be eastern side,involving crossing the runway,not ideal,but possible.However as stated before there is no immediate need for this,and of course this involves investment ,sadly it's not going to happen.

[Rivet Joint]

Well I can't argue with your sentiment that it would make it easier, but then there's easier and there's necessary and right now it's not really necessary, I've operated from SOU airport off and on for 11 years and I've never once had an issue with the backtracking.

Sorry but you are not talking sense. You only have to look at the discrepancies between the arrivals and departure boards on any given day to see that the majority of arrivals (even the ones that arrive early) are departing late. Of course this could be down to a number of reasons but SOU prides itself on its car to plane time duration, and from personal experience I could not find fault with that. It stands to reason that the lack of any real taxiways is a huge handicap with planes effectively having to sit on stands whilst the runway becomes free. If it was not an important cog in an efficient airport why do all airports have them? Apart from LCY, which other airport in the whole of the UK have backtracking of the runway? Even if this point could be argued, your point is flawed in that a well run business plans for the future, it does not wait until it is crippled before putting its hand in its pocket. The low cost operators would be turned off long before that.

[stewyb]

Don't wait for capacity to be reached, act now and develop an infrastructure fit for future growth. I would imagine a northern taxiway will be put in place at the time of a runway resurface and will probably entail a bit of tarmac from stand 14 out to the runway, more than sufficient to alleviate certain delays and will not cost huge amounts of money if done at the same time. That's my guess anyway!

[Planespeaking]

Sorry but you are not talking sense. You only have to look at the discrepancies between the arrivals and departure boards on any given day to see that the majority of arrivals (even the ones that arrive early) are departing late. Of course this could be down to a number of reasons but SOU prides itself on its car to plane time duration, and from personal experience I could not find fault with that. It stands to reason that the lack of any real taxiways is a huge handicap with planes effectively having to sit on stands whilst the runway becomes free. If it was not an important cog in an efficient airport why do all airports have them? Apart from LCY, which other airport in the whole of the UK have backtracking of the runway? Even if this point could be argued, your point is flawed in that a well run business plans for the future, it does not wait until it is crippled before putting its hand in its pocket. The low cost operators would be turned off long before that.
Even SEN have just spent several millions on completely upgrading it's three taxiways in addition to a resurfaced and extended apron area. The three taxiways have greatly reduced the need for runway backtracking, presumably Stobart consider this investment to be future proofing the airport.

[stewyb]

Even SEN have just spent several millions on completely upgrading it's three taxiways in addition to a resurfaced and extended apron area. The three taxiways have greatly reduced the need for runway backtracking, presumably Stobart consider this investment to be future proofing the airport.

Is Twy C being used by EZY now?

[Planespeaking]

Is Twy C being used by EZY now?

Yes it is.

[SWBKCB]

Well I can't argue with your sentiment that it would make it easier, but then there's easier and there's necessary and right now it's not really necessary, I've operated from SOU airport off and on for 11 years and I've never once had an issue with the backtracking.

We go again - Reversethrustset is of course correct, there is a difference between what you want and what you need. Still to actually see any evidence of the delays caused by the lack of a taxiway, much less a business case.

[jp54]

As someone who flies into Southampton multiple times a week, I can't say I have ever been delayed due to having to backtrack. I have had plenty of short delays while waiting for push and start due to other aircraft either taxiing or pushing, but a full length taxiway would not do anything to solve this.

[Soton27]

I understand that no further development can really occur on the western side of the runway, given that no aviation development is allowed within 250m (at a guess) of residential dwellings. Since they’ve built houses next to lakeside, that blocks any development, so a new taxiway would have to be on the other side of the runway which surely defeats the object of creating it.

[good egg]

Simple economics and the Return On Investment?
When the bean counters say it’s worth doing then the investment may happen (usually with a delay!).

It’s a lovely thought that this type of work would be completed ahead of time but that’s reliant on the confidence of business forecasts (and any synergies with other on-going work which may allow some cost reductions in the new project...e.g. equipment already on-site for Project A saves cost of deployment for Project B, etc, etc.)

Only those people who have accurate reports of costs, forecasts and risks can determine when is the best time to invest in order to maximise any potential return.
Even armed with that information things can, and do, go wrong.

If it was the choice between a pound in your pocket or a white elephant what would you do? (Or, more likely, a pound in debt for the same white elephant...)

[Reversethrustset]

Sorry but you are not talking sense. You only have to look at the discrepancies between the arrivals and departure boards on any given day to see that the majority of arrivals (even the ones that arrive early) are departing late. Of course this could be down to a number of reasons but SOU prides itself on its car to plane time duration, and from personal experience I could not find fault with that. It stands to reason that the lack of any real taxiways is a huge handicap with planes effectively having to sit on stands whilst the runway becomes free. If it was not an important cog in an efficient airport why do all airports have them? Apart from LCY, which other airport in the whole of the UK have backtracking of the runway? Even if this point could be argued, your point is flawed in that a well run business plans for the future, it does not wait until it is crippled before putting its hand in its pocket. The low cost operators would be turned off long before that.

Sorry Rivet Joint but your own contradictions are laughable, in one breath you're saying my argument doesn't make sense because there are delays departing, then in the other breath you're saying this could be down to a number of reasons; make your mind up, if you want to counter argue something then at least have the facts to hand. I have never been delayed at SOU due to the runway/taxiway/backtracking etc being congested.
All airports have them? what about Cardiff, Exeter to name a couple and I'm sure there's more that I can find, I just can't be bothered to go search for them.
I think the sad fact of the matter is that you lot on here want the investment and growth more than the SOU management want it. At the end of the day you can want it all you want, it doesn't make a jot of difference, if the management don't want it then you can dream up any plans you want, but at the end of the day your opinions, dreams and aspirations are irrelevant. If you troll through the last 2 years of pages on this thread it will reveal that every third page contains the same old conversations over and over again like a stuck record. No doubt we'll have a 2 week break then you will go over the same stuff - again. Well I'm afraid it doesn't make the management inept or other people's opinions wrong, it just means they have different aspirations to you, that's life, get over it.

[canberra97]

I think everyone is getting carried away with the thought of a full length taxiway but as already stated it's not entirely needed at present although desirable but what has been mentioned numerous times and steweyb points out that a strip of tarmac from stand 14 to the runway would be sufficient and could well be installed at the same time as the runway is resurfaced.

At least the backtracking would be shorter than it currently is without the cost of a full taxiway.

I always thought it was strange that this wasn't incorporated into the original redevelopment in 1991 when the apron in that area was built.

[Plane.Silly]

There are plenty of airports that get on just fine without the need for a full length taxiway. LBA springs to mind, both relatively similar for size/pax movements

[TCAS FAN]

Look at what LCY did to mitigate delays caused by backtracks on 27.

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-1910FB47A5C6641577C75D2DD6979645/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGLC_2-1_en_2017-03-02.pdf

Due to the planning restrictions imposed on distance between aircraft and houses on Southampton Road, an eastern location for a parallel taxiway is the only option available.

What's the optimum runway utilisation/cost option, the LCY solution or parallel taxiway? Might even add the starter strip with the same project?

Either way something needs to be done if SOU are to expand - not forgetting additional apron parking space!

Did we all misunderstand, and it is in fact an Autumn 2018 announcement on airport development?

[RW20]

TCAS FAN
My sentiments entirely,there has been no announcement on airport development as advertised early Autumn,therefore I believe there is little to get excited about airside,and therefore I expect SOU to plod on as much as it had done recently.

[Rivet Joint]

Reversethrustset

I have made my mind up, I merely suggested that other factors could play a part largely to preempt anyone using that as an argument. I will have to take your word that Cardiff and Exeter also have backtracking of the runway but I think its fair to say that those two airports are a lot less busy than SOU. Lets not forget that those airports also have way more space than SOU and therefore larger stands etc. I think it is important to remember that it is not just the runway that is handicapped, but also the stands. Maybe someone can confirm, but I reckon no more than two aircraft at a time can be queuing to access the runway. This means departures are having to wait on stands. The runway is inefficient and lets also not forget that most the aircraft using SOU are based here. Small delays will mount up over the course of the day which in turn impact the whole schedule. BE might not care with their monopoly on the regional sector in the UK, EZY I suspect will not want aircraft from other bases being held up at an inefficient and unambitious airport like SOU.

The argument about the bean counters is probably right but as others have said look at SEN and LCY. Southend was nothing more than a place to park unwanted aircraft not long ago. The owner put their hand in their pocket and now EZY have created a sizable base as a result. LCY is owned by a pension fund, who acknowledge it becomes stretched at peak times so are putting their hand in their pocket. Both have short runways but the investment will make them more efficient.

I will agree with you that this thread has turned into a farce lately, historically it was the BOH thread that left me with a case of deja vu. I think this is largely to do with the MD boasting about the announcement of investment in the autumn though.

[RW20]

River joint,although I can agree with some of your points especially with the lack of announcement with the SOU MD,I think the airport could advance quickly with moderate investment airside,but we all know that this is not on the immediate horizon,therefore I feel the investment blog has gone around to its maximum,and it's time to move on,sadly nothing changes.

[canberra97]

Yes I think it is time to move on the subject as I mentioned at the beginning of the month as sadly there is nothing anyone of us can do about as much we continually debate the topic and nothing will change I'm afraid until we hear otherwise

River Joint

Can I just applaud you on your above post, it was meticulously written and well put together and absolutely spot on

[Rivet Joint]

Thanks Canberra97. Lets see what develops this year. Interestingly, Southampton is one of the fastest growing cities in the UK according to a recent report.

[good egg]

Along with Bournemouth...
*titters, and stands by for flak*

[canberra97]

Difference being that Southampton is a city which Bournemouth isn't

[good egg]

Touché...anyway, thread drift (sorry)

[SWBKCB]

Interestingly, Southampton is one of the fastest growing cities in the UK according to a recent report.

Some evidence...

https://www.pwc.co.uk/press-room/press-releases/good-growth-for-cities-2017.html

[RW20]

The debate on SOU development seems to been going on for some time,however when you read the below link it seems a lot of hot air has been emitting from the airport management for some time!

https://www.built-environment-networking.com/southampton-comes-out-of-the-shadows/
Time for something to happen I think??

[Planespeaking]

An Aerotropolis! Who thinks up this ridiculous and vacuous business jargon? If the authority means a business park then say so, get on and build it.
Just as a matter of fact a new airport business park is already underway at SEN with the access roads in place and the ground being cleared to provide up to 5000 new jobs adjacent to the airport. The big question is whether the local infrastructure can cope.
Only time will tell.

[derelicte]

It is a bit of a mystery why Southampton doesn't do better - I know a few people from Wiltshire and Hampshire who travel to Bristol but they all hate the journey and say they would use Southampton (or Bournemouth) every time if possible.

[SotonFlightpath]

I can’t help thinking that it’s unlikely that SOU will develop in the way many of the posters on this forum would like. It will develop, and new destinations will be established, but I have always thought that Southampton is in many ways fundamentally different from many other regional airports.

There are several reasons for this: SOU’s proximity to London, together its excellent transport links and affluent catchment area means that the airport has already developed quite differently to most regional airports. Most of the local catchment area are quite happy to travel to LHR for most long-distance travel, and to LGW for leisure flights.

Southampton’s forte is regular short-haul domestic and near-continent flights, primarily for business users, but also with some short-break weekends, and visiting friends and family etc. SOU is far more comparable to London City than any other regional airport, and indeed it attracts a not inconsiderable amount of business from the SW home-counties and Western end of the Thames Valley, as well as locally.

I really wish BA City Flyer would consider SOU for some of their growing number of off-peak leisure flights as their brand profile is a good fit for the largely affluent local market, and, they have exactly the right equipment!

I also think that BMI regional could potentially have a go at a few more business/city break routes, eg. Frankfurt, Milan and possibly Brussels or Copenhagen.

There will always be leisure-oriented carriers such as Volotea, EasyJet etc having a punt at the discount holiday markets from Southampton, but SOUs unique strength is the fabulous and frequent connections it already has to useful destinations for the local market.

[canberra97]

Sotonflightpath

Can I just congratulate you on your excellent post and I totally agree with absolutely everything you have written and I share the exact same sentiments regarding Southampton Airport and its potential and the I've always thought of LCY and SOU being very familiar airports in the way you have described.

But that 'small' strip of tarmac from stand 14!

[SotonFlightpath]

canberra97

Many thanks, and I'm pleased someone else shares my thought, and I completely agree with you about the 'small' strip from stand 14!

[stewyb]

SOU Facebook page are asking for feedback on a possible return of the Brussels route, maybe this would suit BMI/Brussels Airlines?

[Wycombe]

Noticed that yesterday (Sun) Eastern used one of their new ATR72's for the run down from Leeds.

[stewyb]

2.08m passengers for 2017, up 6.1% on 2016, excellent figures. Now to keep/increase footfall!

[adfly]

Southampton handled 150,691 passengers in December, up 2% on the previous year, rounding off the year to be one of solid growth. (2.08m pax and up 6.1%, as stewyb has posted above). Once the full year CAA data is out I'll put together a proper summary post.

Route breakdowns below (fewer than usual as some of routes had varying frequencies for the holidays and xmas, which I don't have the time to go through!). I have also assumed no flights on xmas day, could somebody let me know if this was the case?

Alicante - 67 pax / 86%
Cork - 43 pax / 59%
Dusseldorf - 55 pax / 71%
Munich - 20 pax / 41% (based on all E145, seems low compared to other months)
Paris CDG - 62 pax / 80%

Data from here: https://www.caa.co.uk/Data-and-analysis/UK-aviation-market/Airports/Datasets/UK-airport-data/

[OldBristolFreighter]

Apologies for not acknowledging Canberra97's reply sooner but I've been checking the January weekday morning SOU-MUC flights.


19 flights of which; 2 cancelled (=10%); 3 over 2 hours late (=15%); a further 3 over 1 hour late (=15%): 3 30 to 60 minutes late (=15%). So on a 1hr 45min flight only (approx.) 45% arrived on time or with 30 minutes of schedule.


For a business oriented flight are such figures acceptable? Hence my query as to whether BM can keep their customers for this flight, or will it quietly disappear? Or perhaps I should say "disappear more often"? :E


Update: cancellations etc. continuing into Feb.

[The Nutts Mutts]

Adfly, you are indeed correct that there were no flights on Christmas Day as the airport was closed.
There have been quite a few E135 rotations on the MUC route but I couldn't give you a number.

[RW20]

Is there any further updates on 02 RNAV introduction?
This subject seems to have been rolling on for many years without any further development.
I believe that VOR dme approaches were to be discontinued,but as ever with any airside development at SOU there is no news!

[Rivet Joint]

Some evidence...

https://www.pwc.co.uk/press-room/press-releases/good-growth-for-cities-2017.html

Not to go over old ground but this is a very telling article. Clearly this was a meeting of local stake holders to discuss what they were were doing to boost the local economy. I can confirm that pretty much all the plans that the other stake holders tak about have not only started to be built, but in most cases have long since been completed. Meanwhile, all (yes ALL) of the stuff the long in the tooth MD spouts has never seen the light of day. Bearing in mind this article is nearly 4 years old, SOU was suppose to see £30m of investment by now? Apparently a new master plan was due in two years (from 2014) but 2016 has been and gone? Let's not forget that this is coming from the horses mouth, not some rumours in the press. Direct from the MD whilst stood in front of all the key stake holders in the local area. I suppose it would be wrong for me to say that they were nothing more than bare faced lies but how else would you explain such a bullish assessment and 0% follow through? Pretty damning in my opinion.

Incidentally, I see AGS airports has a new chief executive but he will also be MD of Glasgow. I hope this does not mean investment will be skewed towards Glasgow but the best thing he could do for SOU is get some new blood in charge.

In respect of BM, pretty sure they go down to a single rotation over a large part of December so that will need to be taken into account. The Brussels route would be a good move for them. It was successful for a long time but suffered when it went down to a single rotation a day. Judging by the response on SOUs Facebook page there are still a lot of people that would use it.

[stewyb]

Looks like the Munich route is down to one rotation daily as the morning flights have been cancelled for the past couple of days, not good!

[RW20]

River Joint

There has been very little coming out of the MD at SOU regarding development especially airside.This on the back that he said there would be a significant announcement last Autumn.
SOU needs development to move forward,if the present MD is not able to deliver this,then lets hope that a progressive replacement is implemented ASAP.
If Bournemouth had SOU transport links it would be booming right now, it has in place the appropriate airside aids etc to meet demand.
We can only hope!

[stewyb]

Rivet

With the jewell in the crown now seemingly north of the border with Glasgow and Edinburgh under AGS ownership, I doubt the new CEO even knows of SOU existence or potential. Guess time will tell as to further developments but suffice to say its for the SOU MD to stand up and be heard loud and clear!!

[inOban]

AGS own Glasgow and Aberdeen. Edinburgh belongs to GIP, who are the major shareholder in Gatwick.

[stewyb]

Apologies you are quite right

[EastMids]

Dave Lees leaving in the summer to become CEO at Bristol Airport according to a press release from AGS Airports.

[Wycombe]

.....awaits incoming from Rivet Joint ;-)

[stewyb]

Looks like the new CEO of AGS has been listening to you Rivet!:ok:

[RNWY03]

Dave Lees picture and details of his appointment are already on the Bristol Airport website! Nothing so far from the SOU end regarding his replacement?
I believe that the SOU airport consultative Committee meets today so hopefully any update on the Development plan will be on the agenda....I guess that any updates would be made to the local 'stakeholders' before any public announcement?

[RW20]

Can we expect some news on development now that Dave Lee's had gone,and let's face it he's gone to better things!

[SWBKCB]

I'd have thought they'd get a new CEO in and up and running?

[canberra97]

I think Rivet Joint must be down the pub celebrating cause I'm absolutely gob smacked that he hasn't made an appearance here today as I was so looking forward to his response regarding the news of the departure of his much loved David Lees :-)

[Rivet Joint]

Celebrate good times come on! :ok:

So surprised by this, I honestly thought he would have stayed until the nursing home came to pick him up. Perhaps more surprising is the fact that another airport (let alone a larger one!) came calling. Have they not checked his CV? He moved from SOU to LHR in the past, and soon came back with his tail between his legs. What has he achieved in the 7 years since he came back to warrant being head hunted I wonder? As far as I can tell, the 2007 masterplan (that he spearheaded) has only come in use as a doorstop. Last rant over :D

Hopefully this is behind the delayed announcement of the Autumn investment. The next MD hire is crucial to SOU's future in my eyes, hopefully it is someone young, ambitious and male (sorry if the latter offends anyone). EZY are knocking on the door, it would be really great if the next MD greeted them rather than ignoring their existence like the last MD did to Vueling, Volotea etc. Onwards and upwards (hopefully!).

[Wycombe]

Looks like a busy Ski Saturday at SOU today with BEE operating 2 x GVA, 2 x LYS and 3 x CMF. Pretty sure some of those were not originally timetabled and are half-term additions.

[inOban]

Surely any MD delivers an investment program determined by his/her employers. For all I know he may have moved on out of frustration at the failure to authorise the investment he saw was needed.

[canberra97]

That's a very good point actually and something that never crossed my mind, it does make you think.

[MARKEYD]

Just been looking at Easy jet Geneva route in December and trying to work out the load factor , its a bit tricky as Flybe lumped in there as well

Both airlines operated 8 flights so being generous and giving Flybe an average load of 60 pax per flight that leaves Easy jet with an average of 133 pax per flight on a A320 , 180 / 186 seater

All guess work to a degree though !

[stewyb]

From what I have been told on the easy GVA route, Tue has been mixed with some loads as low as 80ish whereas Thur & Sun have been consistently busy and achieving between 140-180. All in all a successful first season to date and would imagine a Saturday service would be popular as this is changeover day in the ski resorts

[The Nutts Mutts]

Regarding the EZY GVA route from SOU, what strikes me is the incredible 426% increase in pax numbers on that route from December 2016 to 2017. I think this just shows the potential available from SOU that an airline such as EZY can unlock with the right routes, fares and marketing.
What's also interesting is that Flybe don't appear to be suffering from the competition, in actual fact they've doubled their numbers on the route since the year before too. Having another carrier on the route increases visibility and footfall, and Flybe may be benefiting from EZY passengers who go one way with one carrier and return with the other, for example.
No matter what the finer details are, it's great to see such a large increase in numbers on that route and hopefully provides food for thought to EZY for the future.
As another example of competition at SOU increasing a market for both carriers, look at the growth in numbers to/from AMS over the last couple of years.

[Wycombe]

426% increase in pax numbers on that route from December 2016 to 2017

Don't forget there would not have been many flights in December itself, as the ski season doesn't really start in earnest until mid-month (the first EZS flight was on the 16th), so you're probably comparing maybe 3 or 4 A320 loads plus a similar no. of BEE Q400 loads in 2017, versus just the Q400 loads in 2016. In that case a big increase should have been expected.

January YoY will be much more representative.

Seems like good news though.

[MARKEYD]

Lolo flights have added another new Greek destination in September with Kalamata being offered

3 flights are on sale on a Monday afternoon , no idea who is operating at the moment but the flight gets back into SOU at 2230
Flybe at the moment have an Alicante flight at about the same time but these are still on sale so it might not be them

[RW20]

This must be on the absolute limit on distance that can be flown on a commercial basis from Southampton.I guess there will be payload restrictions. There would be many other destinations from SOU if there was runway length available.On a separate note there is still silence on any much needed airside development,with SOU moving forward with passenger numbers surely this must be the time to expand?

[The Nutts Mutts]

Wycombe

You're of course right that the large percentage increase comes from a low baseline. My point (although perhaps not worded well) was that I think seeing the route go from circa 500 pax in December '16 to over 3000 in December '17 is a good thing for the airport and gives an indication of what may be possible with competition on routes from SOU, particularly competition from established carriers with strong brands and reasonable fares. I'd expect an increase of similar magnitude in January.

I just hope easyJet are happy with the route and bring it back for next winter. I suspect that many potential customers would have already booked flights from BOH and the London airports by the time the SOU route was announced last July, so having the flights on sale earlier for next time should see stronger forward bookings. A Saturday flight would also be a big bonus if they introduce one. Whatever, it's just good that they're here for now!

[The Nutts Mutts]

The Fly LoLo website has now been updated with summer 2019 flights on sale from SOU, and compared to their initial offering of Skiathos this year it's fair to say that their program will expand somewhat!
I'm guessing that there may be some tinkering still to come, but at the moment their flying program for the school summer holiday period (Jul-Sep) 2019 is as follows:
Monday AM Kefalonia
Monday PM Corfu Jul & Aug, Kalamata Sept
Tuesday AM Murcia
Tuesday PM Skiathos
Tuesday overnight, returning to SOU 0630 Wed Salonika
Wednesday AM Almeria
Wednesday PM nothing showing at the moment
Wednesday o/night Kos
Thursday AM Tivat (Montenegro)
Thursday PM Pristina
Friday AM Skiathos
Friday PM Split
Friday o/night Bari
Saturday AM Murcia
Saturday PM Corfu
Saturday o/night Kos
Sunday AM Bourgas
Sunday PM Almeria


This looks like a one aircraft operation, for example maybe a leased Flybe E195 as planned for the Skiathos route this year. It's a full schedule which is great aircraft utilisation, particularly the overnight trips ex SOU which neatly get round the airport closing times, but it will be vulnerable to tech or ATC delays.
An interesting development.

[rog747]

that looks interesting but rather an adventurous series

poor thing needs some downtime during the week for a bit of mx and TLC if its just one a/c!

looks abit like something from amber air days (2 x 737-200's)

[Buster the Bear]

Average utilisation for an airframe. I assume a replacement aircraft due tech issues is available from somewhere?

[davidjohnson6]

Probably more efficient if Flybe take responsibility for providing a backup aircraft across their entire operation than Lolo chartering a 2nd aircraft.

[canberra97]

I've always considered that many of those destinations were actually out of reach from Southampton until the Skiathos flight was announced for this year.

What surprises me are some of those planned routes such as Pristina and Tivat who would have ever thought that those destinations alone would ever be flown from SOU.

With such a variety of planned destinations it does make you wonder why no LCC hasn't already looked into operating something similar from SOU!

Just out of curiosity can a A319/320 be capable of flying non stop from SOU to those destinations further afield such as the Greek islands and Bulgaria?

[jensdad]

An interesting programme there from FlyLoLo. All seaside resorts with a bit of niche about them - 'bucket, spade and Guardian' if I were to coin a phrase. The one outlier is Pristina. Is there a large Kosovan community in Southampton?

[rog747]

SEN has just seen air malta KM go head to head with EZY from there with alot of flights per week to Malta -

some flights op via catania and cagliari - opening up new nice destinations

[Wycombe]

What surprises me are some of those planned routes such as Pristina and Tivat

Not so sure about the former, but Tivat is in a beautiful part of the world, near to the fjord-like scenery of Kotor, Montenegro. Not far from Dubrovnik, but an interesting alternative destination.

Hoping to head that way myself in just over a month (with BA to DBV).

[adfly]

Looks to be a very interesting operation. I daresay that it is exactly the sort of operation SOU could do well with, as it fills a niche that no major carrier can really compete with directly. Only Murcia and Corfu are served from BOH, and none of those routes are currently served from SOU.

The Kalamata flights that briefly appeared for this year have now disappeared, and only show for 2019.

Despite their failed attempt to start from MAN and BOH in 2017, they seem to be doing alright now, having seemingly sold out most of the odd flights from LGW/MAN/GLA to the Canaries last xmas. They are also selling 2 weekly MAN-TFS flights (presumably using Air Europa as per their other Canaries flights) this summer holidays in addition to SOU-JSI, and also have a few more flights to the canaries loaded for this coming xmas.

Hopefully they can make a success of it all!

[stewyb]

The question is what equipment would be used and by whom. Flybe are reducing their E195 fleet down to 1? in S19 and therefore cannot see this as an option!

[MARKEYD]

I would imagine that this years Skiathos flights will be the telling answer as to how they perform with “‘Lo Lo “ before anyone gets to excited with a list of school boy destinations

[canberra97]

Not so sure about the former, but Tivat is in a beautiful part of the world, near to the fjord-like scenery of Kotor, Montenegro. Not far from Dubrovnik, but an interesting alternative destination.

Hoping to head that way myself in just over a month (with BA to DBV).

Having personally been to Dubrovnik as well as Montenegro including the old town of Kotor and its marvellous fjord, Budva, Centinjae and Tivat I thoroughly recommend visiting the country :-)

I'm not questioning there appeal but the reason I questioned Tivat as well as Pristina was because of the fact that there are other destinations one could consider obvious from SOU before those two despite their individual appeal!

[stewyb]

Anybody know the reasoning for PMI being slashed from 7 flights weekly S17 (3 Flybe/2 TUI/2 Volotea) to 4 (2 Flybe/2 TUI) S18?

[MARKEYD]

I think this has already been discussed a little while ago , but obviously Volotea are not operating this year so thats 2 flights down , then Flybe have cut back 1 flight to accommodate the new Skiathos flights with ' Lo Lo ' flights and are operating the other flight on ' put put ' aircraft rather than a E195

I think Ryanair have picked up on this and are operating double daily flights on a SAT and TUE in August and September from Bournemouth which didn't happen last year

[stewyb]

I know where the reductions have come from but just curious as to why capacity has been cut back by circa 40%, that's very significant and if the route was successful like I assumed it was, would the airport not have tried to fill the void!

[TCAS FAN]

At last a positive development!

Included in tomorrow's (1 March) AIP Amendment is a new RNAV (GNSS) instrument approach procedure for runway 02.

At last a 21st century instrument approach procedure as an alternative to the antiquated offset VOR/DME and NDB non precision approaches, with a 100FT+ reduction in the OCA compared to other 02 IAPs for CAT C aircraft.

Now all we now need is a RNAV (GNSS) procedure for 20 to replace the non precision procedures. Might take even longer to come to fruition due to a need for an Airspace Change Proposal to provide the additional controlled airspace to contain the procedure inside?

The significance of this safety improvement appears to have been missed by the airport's media machine, nothing found on the airport's website

[destinationsky]

There is already a precision approach on runway 20 - It's the ILS. The GNSS is non-precision too.

[shamrock7seal]

The airport is probably in a bit of flux given lack of MD

[TCAS FAN]

destinationsky

The 02 GNSS IAP has the LPV option, ie Localiser performance with vertical guidance.

Am more than aware that 20 has an ILS, look at the options for CAT C aircraft when the ILS is off for maintenance or is U/S, NDB (offset), VOR/DME off set (circling minima with an 890FT OCA!) or an SRA (subject ATCO availability, no approaches available when combined TWR/APS being provided).

Bring on the LPV procedure for 20!

[stewyb]

At last a positive development!

Included in tomorrow's (1 March) AIP Amendment is a new RNAV (GNSS) instrument approach procedure for runway 02.

At last a 21st century instrument approach procedure as an alternative to the antiquated offset VOR/DME and NDB non precision approaches, with a 100FT+ reduction in the OCA compared to other 02 IAPs for CAT C aircraft.

Now all we now need is a RNAV (GNSS) procedure for 20 to replace the non precision procedures. Might take even longer to come to fruition due to a need for an Airspace Change Proposal to provide the additional controlled airspace to contain the procedure inside?

The significance of this safety improvement appears to have been missed by the airport's media machine, nothing found on the airport's website

To the lay-man, what does this exactly mean?👍

[RW20]

TCAS FAN
It's good news on the RNAV approach,with OCH 364 (@LPV)it's much better then What we have now!
Let's hope for airside development announcement know?- well you can only hope!

[TCAS FAN]

stewyb

Until the advent of GPS based procedures, instrument approach procedures were provided by ground based equipment, either radio navigation aids or radar systems.

If you wanted an instrument approach procedure to make an approach in line with the runway you normally had to locate the radio navigation aid in line with the runway (eg, an ILS localiser), or you could locate a VOR or NDB in line with the runway, the latter is often not practicable due to off airport developments.

SOU has an ILS on one runway, 20. On cost grounds it never installed one on 02. Consequently all approaches to 02 had to be offset using navigation aids that were located either side of the runway (VOR to the east, NDB to the west). The intent is that you approach towards the navigation aid, offset at an angle to the runway centreline which intersects the centreline at around 1000 metres from touchdown, by which time you are hopefully below cloud/in sight of the runway. Then make a turn and land.

VOR and NDB based instrument approaches also do not provide real time vertical guidance information to the pilot.

While better than nothing, the offset approach is far from ideal as it gives you minimal time to spot the runway, sometimes seeing it after you are too close to it and having gone through the runway centreline with no option other than to carry out a missed approach, unless you were a Trislander and were slow enough to make a late turn!

To have the highest possible chance of a successful landing in poor weather the runway needs to be directly in front of you when you break cloud or otherwise see it. Without the expense of ground based navigation aids, a RNAV (GNSS) instrument approach procedure enables you do approach in line with the runway. Advances in GPS based technology can now also provide real time vertical guidance to the pilot, as will be available for the first time ever on runway 02, from 1st March.

VOR and NDB based instrument approach procedures use 1950's and 60's technology, far short of what is, and has been for some time, available in the 21st century.

[stewyb]

stewyb

Until the advent of GPS based procedures, instrument approach procedures were provided by ground based equipment, either radio navigation aids or radar systems.

If you wanted an instrument approach procedure to make an approach in line with the runway you normally had to locate the radio navigation aid in line with the runway (eg, an ILS localiser), or you could locate a VOR or NDB in line with the runway, the latter is often not practicable due to off airport developments.

SOU has an ILS on one runway, 20. On cost grounds it never installed one on 02. Consequently all approaches to 02 had to be offset using navigation aids that were located either side of the runway (VOR to the east, NDB to the west). The intent is that you approach towards the navigation aid, offset at an angle to the runway centreline which intersects the centreline at around 1000 metres from touchdown, by which time you are hopefully below cloud/in sight of the runway. Then make a turn and land.

VOR and NDB based instrument approaches also do not provide real time vertical guidance information to the pilot.

While better than nothing, the offset approach is far from ideal as it gives you minimal time to spot the runway, sometimes seeing it after you are too close to it and having gone through the runway centreline with no option other than to carry out a missed approach, unless you were a Trislander and were slow enough to make a late turn!

To have the highest possible chance of a successful landing in poor weather the runway needs to be directly in front of you when you break cloud or otherwise see it. Without the expense of ground based navigation aids, a RNAV (GNSS) instrument approach procedure enables you do approach in line with the runway. Advances in GPS based technology can now also provide real time vertical guidance to the pilot, as will be available for the first time ever on runway 02, from 1st March.

VOR and NDB based instrument approach procedures use 1950's and 60's technology, far short of what is, and has been for some time, available in the 21st century.

Thanks, great explanation TCAS FAN!! This is obviously a big improvement for the airport and will hopefully attract the likes of EZY to operate more efficiently in to SOU?

[SWBKCB]

How many operators use RNAV approaches?

[stewyb]

Thanks, great explanation TCAS FAN!! This is obviously a big improvement for the airport and will hopefully attract the likes of EZY to operate more efficiently in to SOU?

TCAS FAN

Assume the Transmissometer installed recently has nothing to do with RNAV but instead is part of the overall airfield upgrade?

[The Nutts Mutts]

The transmissometers are there as part of the IRVR (instrumented runway visual range) system which is being installed. They're a different upgrade and separate to the GNSS approach which has no associated ground equipment.

[stewyb]

The transmissometers are there as part of the IRVR (instrumented runway visual range) system which is being installed. They're a different upgrade and separate to the GNSS approach which has no associated ground equipment.

Much needed airfield investment in visual/approach aids. Any news on runway resurfacing as I thought this was due during 2017/2018?

[Rivet Joint]

stewyb

Until the advent of GPS based procedures, instrument approach procedures were provided by ground based equipment, either radio navigation aids or radar systems.

If you wanted an instrument approach procedure to make an approach in line with the runway you normally had to locate the radio navigation aid in line with the runway (eg, an ILS localiser), or you could locate a VOR or NDB in line with the runway, the latter is often not practicable due to off airport developments.

SOU has an ILS on one runway, 20. On cost grounds it never installed one on 02. Consequently all approaches to 02 had to be offset using navigation aids that were located either side of the runway (VOR to the east, NDB to the west). The intent is that you approach towards the navigation aid, offset at an angle to the runway centreline which intersects the centreline at around 1000 metres from touchdown, by which time you are hopefully below cloud/in sight of the runway. Then make a turn and land.

VOR and NDB based instrument approaches also do not provide real time vertical guidance information to the pilot.

While better than nothing, the offset approach is far from ideal as it gives you minimal time to spot the runway, sometimes seeing it after you are too close to it and having gone through the runway centreline with no option other than to carry out a missed approach, unless you were a Trislander and were slow enough to make a late turn!

To have the highest possible chance of a successful landing in poor weather the runway needs to be directly in front of you when you break cloud or otherwise see it. Without the expense of ground based navigation aids, a RNAV (GNSS) instrument approach procedure enables you do approach in line with the runway. Advances in GPS based technology can now also provide real time vertical guidance to the pilot, as will be available for the first time ever on runway 02, from 1st March.

VOR and NDB based instrument approach procedures use 1950's and 60's technology, far short of what is, and has been for some time, available in the 21st century.

Great explanation TCAS FAN. Will this have involved any upgrading of the equipment at SOU? If so, this will be further evidence of some much needed airside investment along with the transmissometer. What are other people's thoughts about the timing of this investment relative to the MD leaving? Bit odd he is leaving when investment finally starts materialising.

[stewyb]

Great explanation TCAS FAN. Will this have involved any upgrading of the equipment at SOU? If so, this will be further evidence of some much needed airside investment along with the transmissometer. What are other people's thoughts about the timing of this investment relative to the MD leaving? Bit odd he is leaving when investment finally starts materialising.

This investment would have been planned months ago and hence don't see how this can be pinned on the MD

[TCAS FAN]

Rivet Joint

LPV explained here:

https://www.thebalance.com/localizer-performance-with-vertical-guidance-lpv-approach-282711


Great advance over ILS, no expensive equipment to buy/maintain and does not need the recurring expense of having to flight check it every six months.

The only expenditure required is a obstacle survey, which is checked annually (already needed to sustain other instrument approach procedures and the EASA Aerodrome Certification) and paying someone to design the procedure and get it approved by CAA. Last time I was quoted for one was less than £50K.

[Groundloop]

Just remember if you read that link we do not have WAAS in Europe - so EGNOS would be used instead.

[Le Tirer]

How many operators use RNAV approaches?

This morning's KLM requested an RNAV approach but was advised it was now NOTAM'd as not available until March 8th.

[Rivet Joint]

Rivet Joint

LPV explained here:

https://www.thebalance.com/localizer-performance-with-vertical-guidance-lpv-approach-282711


Great advance over ILS, no expensive equipment to buy/maintain and does not need the recurring expense of having to flight check it every six months.

The only expenditure required is a obstacle survey, which is checked annually (already needed to sustain other instrument approach procedures and the EASA Aerodrome Certification) and paying someone to design the procedure and get it approved by CAA. Last time I was quoted for one was less than £50K.

Sounds like win win. Begs the question why the bigger airports stick with ILS though?

On a separate note, what's going on at SOU today? Obviously the whether is extreme at the moment but the likes of Doncaster and Newquay seem to be open yet SOU is closed. Lack of equipment to clear the snow? Can't imagine it has been hit as bad as the airports in the north.

[shamrock7seal]

The snow has been particularly bad for SOU and BOH meaning the runways couldn’t be cleared fast enough before another’s layer covered them. Also freezing rain affected the southern most airports like Exeter Bournemouth and Southampton which is even more disastrous than snow and can be deadly. My only criticism is of Exeter and Bournemouth’s social media updates which have been totally disgraceful compared to Southampton and others

[zantopst]

Why do you say Southampton is closed! it has been open since 8:30 am this morning.

The Blue island from Guernsey landed at 10am and the Jersey flight was on its way but turned back to Jersey for reasons unknown to me.
Flybe have taken the decision to cancel its flights until 3pm but saying the airport is closed is not true!

[Del Prado]

Sounds like win win. Begs the question why the bigger airports stick with ILS though?

.

ILS has lower minima (including CAT 3 autoland). If the bigger airports relied solely on RNAV approaches then no one would land when visibility went below 1400M or cloud ceiling was below 700’. CAT 1 ILS approaches can be carried out in 550M visibility and 200’ cloud ceiling.

*these figures are an approximation and vary according to location and aircraft/aircrew.

[TCAS FAN]

ILS has lower minima (including CAT 3 autoland). If the bigger airports relied solely on RNAV approaches then no one would land when visibility went below 1400M or cloud ceiling was below 700’. CAT 1 ILS approaches can be carried out in 550M visibility and 200’ cloud ceiling.

The ability to fly a LPV procedure considerably lowers the OCA, for a CAT C aircraft on runway 02 the OCA is 415 FT. Had the obstacle environment been better (ie no hill or trees) the OCA would have been even lower.

From what I recollect the visibility/RVR minima takes into account many factors, including OCA and the length of approach lighting on the landing runway. I suspect that could result in less than 1400 metres.

See my link in #402

[stewyb]

The ability to fly a LPV procedure considerably lowers the OCA, for a CAT C aircraft on runway 02 the OCA is 415 FT. Had the obstacle environment been better (ie no hill or trees) the OCA would have been even lower.

From what I recollect the visibility/RVR minima takes into account many factors, including OCA and the length of approach lighting on the landing runway. I suspect that could result in less than 1400 metres.

See my link in #402

Of which SOU has very little!

[MARKEYD]

Just having a look at the January 18 figures for Easy jet flights

Geneva 4697 passengers

Don't have access to the Flybe loads but taking the following , for example

1 )

Flybe operated 12 flights ( 2 x Sat , 1 x Sun ) average 65 pax per flight
Easy jet operated 13 flights average 121 pax per flight

2 )

Flybe average 75 pax per flight
Easy jet averaged 111 pax per flight

[Del Prado]

From what I recollect the visibility/RVR minima takes into account many factors, including OCA and the length of approach lighting on the landing runway. I suspect that could result in less than 1400 metres.


That’s why I said the figures were an approximation.
The question was why do the big airports still rely on ILS: the answer is lower minima.
I’ve yet to see RNAV approaches be certified for LVPs.

[RW20]

Del Prado
The Nats IAIP RNAV chart 02 for SOU clearly shows the LPV approach with the minima OCA as stated by TCAS FAN,therefore it is available ,but not to the 8/3 as stated by Notams.
Clearly a big improvement for landing aircraft at SOU.

[TCAS FAN]

I’ve yet to see RNAV approaches be certified for LVPs.

Presumably you are talking about EU OPS Low Visibility Operations, ie operations in RVR less than 550 metres, applicable for Lower than CAT 1, CAT 2 etc.

These are not applicable at SOU due to obstacles in the each runway's final approach segment, and a restrictive aerodrome ground lighting system.

What will now become available on 8 March for runway 02 is a quantum leap for SOU.

Adding to this plaudit, well done to the Airside Ops team for getting the runway back into operation following the recent snow, and keeping it operational.

[Del Prado]

Rivet Joint said “Begs the question why the bigger airports stick with ILS though?”

The answer is lower minima for ILS.

With the greatest respect to other posters, I don’t have to check out SOU approach plates or links to explanations of types of approach or consider the lack of LVPs at SOU.

The question was “why the bigger airports stick with ILS?”

The answer FOR BIGGER AIRPORTS is that the ILS allows operations to continue in marginal weather - in fact right down to 0/0 if aircraft is so equipped and crew are suitably qualified.

Apologies for the lack of Southampton references here but I was simply trying to answer a question from another poster about bigger airfields.

[The Nutts Mutts]

Just been trying to book flights from SOU-MUC for May but nothing is showing as bookable on the BMI Regional website after 24th March. Is the route stopping?

[stewyb]

Just been trying to book flights from SOU-MUC for May but nothing is showing as bookable on the BMI Regional website after 24th March. Is the route stopping?

Wouldn't be a surprise as the route is cancelled more times than it runs!

[Rivet Joint]

Just been trying to book flights from SOU-MUC for May but nothing is showing as bookable on the BMI Regional website after 24th March. Is the route stopping?

I hope not, was planning to use it again in the summer. Loads were over half last time I used it. Really will be a case of groundhog day if SOU loses another operator/route. I have noticed they often lend their fleet to Logan and even Eastern lately. Would be better used serving their own routes, but these niche operators seem to want to just be in the wet leasing business now. Look at Cityjet.

[stewyb]

Which airline would operate a Brussels route if re-instated? Airport social media recently asking for feedback on viability and with Flybe withdrawing some time ago, maybe someone else is looking at it (BMI? Although if they are pulling out of MUC, would they then jump in to Brussels)

[shamrock7seal]

The airport has seen big falls in passenger volumes year on year for the MUC route. Is the airport too close to Heathrow? Is that why it seems to struggle to get above 2m pax per year? It should be at least half of Bristol’s throughput (9m) by now (4.5M)

[adfly]

Would be a shame to see them pull out, until recently the loads seemed fairly good, and inline with the average for the airline. It is a shame to see that the slight reversal we began to see a couple of years ago where other airlines were starting to break into Flybe's dominant position has all but disappeared.

Considering the positives first, Aer Lingus seem to be doing well on the Cork route, with it being better served now now I can ever recall in the past by Aer Arran (last time it was only a seasonal operation?). Likewise KLM have stuck around so for now it seems safe to assume the route meets their expectations. Finally. EZY seem to be off to a reasonable start, but I guess it is too early to properly judge this one for the time being.

On the leisure front Volotea have dropped their scheduled operation, in spite of a considerable reduction of Flybe PMI flights this year.

Leaving aside VLM (was a niche operation at best) and Powdair (considerable airline issues) the 2nd and 3rd busiest carriers (by flights) are now both Flybe franchises (Blue Islands and Eastern), and now BMI are also throwing in the towel! Considering it was on paper a well suited route (small aircraft, twice daily frequency, numerous onward connections on BMI and Lufthansa) could it be the reliability issues and cancellations that caused this, or was it a case of the route under performing and being the first to go any time operational issues came about?

As an extra point I remain intrigued as to whose aircraft Lolo Flights are going to use next year if Flybe are planning on getting rid of the E195's by then...

[stewyb]

Would be a shame to see them pull out, until recently the loads seemed fairly good, and inline with the average for the airline. It is a shame to see that the slight reversal we began to see a couple of years ago where other airlines were starting to break into Flybe's dominant position has all but disappeared.

Considering the positives first, Aer Lingus seem to be doing well on the Cork route, with it being better served now now I can ever recall in the past by Aer Arran (last time it was only a seasonal operation?). Likewise KLM have stuck around so for now it seems safe to assume the route meets their expectations. Finally. EZY seem to be off to a reasonable start, but I guess it is too early to properly judge this one for the time being.

On the leisure front Volotea have dropped their scheduled operation, in spite of a considerable reduction of Flybe PMI flights this year.

Leaving aside VLM (was a niche operation at best) and Powdair (considerable airline issues) the 2nd and 3rd busiest carriers (by flights) are now both Flybe franchises (Blue Islands and Eastern), and now BMI are also throwing in the towel! Considering it was on paper a well suited route (small aircraft, twice daily frequency, numerous onward connections on BMI and Lufthansa) could it be the reliability issues and cancellations that caused this, or was it a case of the route under performing and being the first to go any time operational issues came about?

As an extra point I remain intrigued as to whose aircraft Lolo Flights are going to use next year if Flybe are planning on getting rid of the E195's by then...

BMI service ends on the 24/03. A shame and clearly some UK airlines are struggling to survive and make routes profitable, I include Eastern, Cityjet (Eire) and also Flybe in this as well. Me thinks further consolidation beckons!!

[SWBKCB]

Me thinks further consolidation beckons!!

More? there won't be anything left!

[Rivet Joint]

BMI service ends on the 24/03. A shame and clearly some UK airlines are struggling to survive and make routes profitable, I include Eastern, Cityjet (Eire) and also Flybe in this as well. Me thinks further consolidation beckons!!

That is ridiculous. Obviously we are not privy to the yields but surely at their prices, an over 50% erj-145 is making money for them. The recent decrease is probably largely down to the fact it went down to a single rotation. A route like this could become a gold mine with the LH codeshare. When I used it recently there were all sorts of nationalities on the flight. Why ride out the hard times when BE were operating the same route only to throw in the towel? I had high hopes of them opening more routes to Frankfurt, Brussels etc which are all routes which have been served a few times previously. This smacks of them seeing a quick buck in the wet lease market over their bread and butter. You only have to look at cityjet to see where that goes.

[SWBKCB]

A route like this could become a gold mine with the LH codeshare.

I had high hopes of them opening more routes to Frankfurt, Brussels etc which are all routes which have been served a few times previously.

or maybe, just maybe, there just isn't the demand at the right price, and it isn't always the airlines sabotaging their own routes?

[canberra97]

I thought that BMI to Munich had a LH codeshare.

[Rivet Joint]

or maybe, just maybe, there just isn't the demand at the right price, and it isn't always the airlines sabotaging their own routes?

Is that why two airlines were fighting over it not so long ago? I bet they were making a small amount of money on it but can make more on the wet leasing market. That is a temperamental market though. I doubt you believe that Amsterdam and Paris are the only foreign hubs sustainable from SOU?

It does have a LH codeshare which opened up a big customer base for SOU. Other airports seem to sustain LH affiliates, not sure why SOU cannot.

[canberra97]

Is that why two airlines were fighting over it not so long ago? I bet they were making a small amount of money on it but can make more on the wet leasing market. That is a temperamental market though. I doubt you believe that Amsterdam and Paris are the only foreign hubs sustainable from SOU?

It does have a LH codeshare which opened up a big customer base for SOU. Other airports seem to sustain LH affiliates, not sure why SOU cannot.

Regarding your last comment I also find it very strange and also very frustrating.

The catchment area for SOU and a fairly wealthy one at that should be able to support such services but I just can't understand why it doesn't.

The company I work for has seen a huge growth over the last few years with Germany now being our second biggest market WORLDWIDE after the USA with the United Kingdom taking third place as far as market share is concerned.

Although obviously the U.K. Market is the largest from the port the amount of German originating passengers actually joining cruise ships at the Port of Southampton is increasing with the majority of those passengers flying into LHR and catching the cruise shuttle coach to the port.

Having personally spoken to many of those passengers and asking where in Germany they originated it amazes me that SOU can't sustain a few more routes to Germany other than the Flybe Düsseldorf link now that we've lost BMI to Munich.

Eurowings with their Dash8's would be a good addition to SOU offering perhaps a few routes such as Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg, Munich and Stuttgart, some could even be seasonal..but then perhaps it's too close to LHR where they operate from to those destinations.

[Buster the Bear]

If it wasn't for the fact that I have a keen interest in the aviation world, living inland by 25 min, I would not of had a clue that I could connect in Munich via a 'Lufthansa' flight from Southampton.

[SWBKCB]

My point is airlines and routes come and go from SOU, and the view on this thread is consistently that it's the airports fault for not investing, or the airlines fault for not advertising, etc, etc

These repeated comings and goings would indicate that the routes that have operated are marginal at best. There maybe one or two odd airline choices, but this seems to be a consistent pattern at SOU. Airlines don't drop profitable routes for no reason.

Maybe the airport just is what it is - it is constrained by its location, and has LHR and LGW on its doorstep.

[Groundloop]

These repeated comings and goings would indicate that the routes that have operated are marginal at best. There maybe one or two odd airline choices, but this seems to be a consistent pattern at SOU. Airlines don't drop profitable routes for no reason.

How dare you bring logic into this thread!:ok:

[adfly]

UK-Germany market enjoys six straight years of growth; flag carriers lead the way, London Heathrow is top airport. (http://www.anna.aero/2018/03/06/uk-germany-market-enjoys-six-straight-years-of-growth-flag-carriers-lead-the-way-london-heathrow-is-top-airport/) An interesting article considering the last couple of days discussion!

[Rivet Joint]

My point is airlines and routes come and go from SOU, and the view on this thread is consistently that it's the airports fault for not investing, or the airlines fault for not advertising, etc, etc

These repeated comings and goings would indicate that the routes that have operated are marginal at best. There maybe one or two odd airline choices, but this seems to be a consistent pattern at SOU. Airlines don't drop profitable routes for no reason.

Maybe the airport just is what it is - it is constrained by its location, and has LHR and LGW on its doorstep.

How do you explain the growth taking place at "London"Southend? It is pretty much a similar distance away from LHR and LGW but also has LTN and STN to compete with. Not to mention a big part of its catchment being sea! SOU has a place and that's providing a more convenient option for its affluent catchment. There is also a long list of USPs (I posted it a while ago) that create a customer base (being Europe's biggest turnaround cruise port for a start! - that's 2 million customers right there) in my opinion Southend is an example of what happens when investment is forthcoming. Hopefully now the dinasour is out the door we will see a bit of ambition (I will not hold my breath though).

[southside bobby]

You will only cause yourself angst viewing Southend as a correct model of a market I feel.

[Nakata77]

1. A cruise ship terminal has nothing to do with whether or not an airport is successful. Cruise ship customers either are coming from London or going to London and simply using SOU as a stepping stone. London doesn’t have its own cruise port. Granted you may get a few fly in/cruise out pax but that would be a tiny fraction of what most people do and where most customers originate. If I took a cruise ship out from Southampton I would certainly not want to be flying back to SOU on a turboprop. I will fly into LHR in style up front with BA. Most of those 2m customers at the cruise terminal are British or American.

2. Take your passion Rivet Joint and try and do something with it. For instance would you sink your own money into an airline at SOU? Would you be willing to put your money where your mouth is and re-mortgage your house for it for example?

3. SEN. Jan 18 CAA stats show that their GLA, DUB and MAN routes only managed 30% load factors. I would say SOU is far more successful than SEN currently and I doubt very much that SEN would be able to sustain anything above 1m pax per year for long without massive advertising spend, shorter train times and closure of LCY

[canberra97]

Regarding cruise passengers traveling to Southampton by air as it all depends on where your originating from.

Royal Caribbean Cruises and Celebrity Cruises have a deal with Flybe and most of the weekend cruise departures have a fair amount of passengers connecting to SOU from BFS, GLA and MAN and to a lesser extent EDI to join the ship.

On one weekend last summer for two ships there was over 600 passengers over the Saturday and Sunday connecting with a similar amount flying out, the SOU shuttle to the port was operating every 30 mins with all the coaches full.

Princess Cruises Northern Europe cruises are extremely popular with Americans, Australians, Chinese (huge market) many South Americans, last summer on one particular cruise on the Caribbean Princess to the Baltic we only had 86 British passengers out of a total compliment of 3126, so that that gives a good idea of the demographics.

Obviously American passengers tend to arrive at either LGW or LHR and get the cruise shuttle direct to the port but there are still a lot of passengers who tend to arrive a few days before their cruise and those that opt to stay in the local area before flying home.

[SWBKCB]

in my opinion Southend is an example of what happens when investment is forthcoming.

Back to the same old point - that isn't the reason airlines stop and start services

Hopefully now the dinasour is out the door we will see a bit of ambition

Do you really think it is down to one man?

[RW20]

Nakata77

Some good and valid points,except to say SEN have invested heavily in airside development, something we have yet to see todate at SOU,and on recent evidence it's not likely.
Having used SOU a few times over the last few months I would say there is a need to expand arrivals,as queing outside to enter customs is not ideal! Money needs to be spent to expand operations at the airport,if it's not going to fall behind in growth and popularity.

[stewyb]

BMI call a temporary halt to flights between Southampton and Bavarian capital to allow for "recruitment and training" | Daily Echo (http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/16072950.Air_service_between_Southampton_and_Munich_suspende d/)

[The Nutts Mutts]

It's interesting, it may be a load of rubbish and the flight is gone for good, but on the other hand I don't recall an airline dropping, or "suspending" a route for that reason before? (I don't mean SOU, I mean anywhere).
I always thought that if a route got dropped the airline would just say they weren't happy with it's performance and be done with it?
There have been a lot of cancellations and delays over the last few months, so maybe there is something in their explanation?
I guess we'll just have to wait and see if they bring it back.

[stewyb]

Flybe's W18/19 schedule has been released and a quick look suggests that Easyjet will be back for another season as Flybe have dropped completely their Geneva route and Chambery reduced from 3 to 1 weekly. On this basis, we might even see EZY adding further to the route, maybe a Saturday? :ok:

[FrequentlyFlying]

It surely isn't good news FlyBe dropping Geneva - yes it maybe an enevitable consequence of the new reality but as both were running last this winter it isn't great news for SOU that FlyBe stop altogether for a Easy Swiss route that is less than a season long, a discounted season at that.

[The Nutts Mutts]

For me this is actually a bit of a shame, assuming the Flybe schedule stays that way and they don't add flights in the future.
I'm as keen to see EZY expand and develop from SOU as anyone, but I do think it's unfortunate if Flybe pull off the Geneva route completely. Their flights to/from there have had good loads this season, and if they haven't made money from them (>80% full Dash 8s on a <90 minute flight at the weekends when demand is highest) then I don't know how they make their money!
From a consumer point of view going to one carrier on the route will mean less choice of flights and possibly higher prices owing to the lack of competition. Also less movements for the airport.
It'll be good if EZY do expand, but there's no indication that they will yet, and even if they do I'd have thought there could have been room for two carriers on this route, at least for another season to see how it all pans out.

[MARKEYD]

Easy jet release their Winter schedule in mid April so over another month before it comes clear what is happening with the Geneva route

Flybe are well known for dithering about with there routes and schedules , plenty of time to add or take away routes for next winter

[stewyb]

Easy jet release their Winter schedule in mid April so over another month before it comes clear what is happening with the Geneva route

Flybe are well known for dithering about with there routes and schedules , plenty of time to add or take away routes for next winter

Fair point although its fun to speculate:)

[inOban]

It can be seen as a result for SOU that a route has grown to a level where it attracts a major player. It is unfortunate that Flybe don't get a 'transfer fee'!

[TCAS FAN]

Further to my post #388 I see that there is now a NOTAM delaying implementation of the 02 RNAV approaches until 2nd April.

Anyone know what's going on? For the IAP to appear in the AIP the procedures must have been approved by CAA, or were they approved subject to conditions that have as yet not been fulfilled by the airport operator?

[MARKEYD]

Understand that Lo lo flights are about to sign a contract within the next 3 weeks with an EU airline to offer the flights listed from Southampton to various destinations next year , they won't divulge who it is yet , but a bit of pushing gleamed the following information

Was told by Lolo its an ex KLM FK 70 aircraft with 80 seats and EU registered

[PDXCWL45]

Understand that Lo lo flights are about to sign a contract within the next 3 weeks with an EU airline to offer the flights listed from Southampton to various destinations next year , they won't divulge who it is yet , but a bit of pushing gleamed the following information

Was told by Lolo its an ex KLM FK 70 aircraft with 80 seats and EU registered
TUS Airways is Cyprus based and has 4 Fokker 70s and 2 Fokker 100s in it's fleet. So could be them.

[Wycombe]

....or possibly Carpatair (Romania-based) although I think they currently have FK100's rather than FK70's.

[adfly]

Have to say I was not expecting that as an answer! But looking into it a little it does seem like a pretty wise choice.

The aircraft easily has enough range for all of the planned destinations, and the F70's decent runway performance should mean flying ex. SOU will a full load isn't too much of a concern (if anyone has some even vague figures they would be interesting to see).

From what I can see, the only issue will be the presumably high CASM of the aircraft compared to the usual 319/20 and 738's used by the loco's. Presumably the average fare will have to be relatively high (or not lolo...) to balance this out, although only having to sell 80 seats may aid this somewhat.

[MARKEYD]

Geneva is on sale with Flybe for 2018 / 19

Same schedule as this year 2 x Sat and 1 x Sun

[darren1]

....or possibly Carpatair (Romania-based) although I think they currently have FK100's rather than FK70's.

So it’s not then...:ok:

[darren1]

Geneva is on sale with Flybe for 2018 / 19

Same schedule as this year 2 x Sat and 1 x Sun

So lots of flapping from people who can’t wait for the whole schedule to be released.

[adfly]

S18 Summary

As usual, here is a breakdown of the coming summer. Looks to be a reduction in a number of areas compared to last year, so I wonder if passengers will remain above the 2m mark. From what I could see only Alicante, Dublin and Manchester have increased capacity compared to last year, plus the two new charter routes and KLM being all E175 this summer. There were actually more flights in the peak W17/18 season if my maths is reasonably accurate... Let me know of any errors and I'll update the post.

Aer Lingus Regional

Cork - 5 weekly AT7

Aurigny Air Services

Alderney - 20-29 weekly D28

Easyjet

Geneva - 3 weekly 319/20 (until 21/04)

Flybe - 6-7x Q400, 1x E95 based

Aberdeen - 8-10 weekly J41/S20 (Eastern via LBA)
Alicante - 6 weekly E95/Q400 (5x/1x)
Amsterdam - 23 weekly Q400
Avignon - 1-3 weekly Q400
Bastia - 1 weekly Q400
Belfast City - 20 weekly Q400
Bergerac - 7 weekly Q400
Biarritz - 1 weekly Q400
Bordeaux - 5 weekly Q400
Brest - 1 weekly Q400
Chambery - 2 weekly Q400 (until 15/04)
Dublin - 26 weekly Q400
Dusseldorf - 6 weekly Q400
Edinburgh - 26 weekly Q400
Faro - 3 weekly E95
Geneva - 3 weekly Q400 (until 15/04)
Glasgow - 30 weekly Q400
Guernsey - 29 weekly AT4/7 (Blue Islands)
Jersey - 25 weekly Q400/AT4/7 (Blue Islands)
La Rochelle - 3-4 weekly Q400
Leeds - 15 weekly J41/S20 (Eastern)
Limoges - 3-5 weekly Q400
Malaga - 4 weekly E95
Manchester - 37 weekly Q400/E75
Nantes - 4 weekly Q400
Newcastle - 18 weekly Q400
Palma - 2-3 weekly E95/Q400
Paris CDG - 12 weekly Q400
Perpignan - 1 weekly Q400
Rennes - 3 weekly Q400
Rodez - 3 weekly S20 (Eastern)
Toulon - 3 weekly Q400
Verona - 3 weekly Q400

KLM Cityhopper

Amsterdam - 7-12 weekly E75

Lolo Flights

Skiathos (New) - 1 weekly Flybe E95 (From 03/07)

Thomson

Ibiza - 1 weekly Volotea 712
Menorca (New) - 1 weekly Flybe Q400 (From 26/05)
Palma - 2 weekly Volotea 712/319


Summary

355-360 weekly departures (432-480 in S17)
315-316 weekly Flybe departures (inc. charters, 357-369 in S17)
40-44 weekly other departures (75-91 in S17)
51 daily departures (62-69 in S17)

[RW20]

adfly
A bit of a dissapointing summary for SOU,it's seems just as the airport ups a gear then it takes two steps back!
Surely there's more potential from SOU then what is currently being offered?,or is it we are expecting o much from a relatively small regional?

[Wycombe]

So it’s not then...

Carpatair website indicates that they have operated FK70's on ACMI also, so my previous post is perhaps not quite so winky, although will concede I could have explained it better :)

In response to adfly (great summary BTW) some of the reduction in total YoY Flybe sectors is probably accounted for by those positioning ops to EXT and EMA in S17 that one suspects carried very few pax.

It does seem like something of a retrenchment (esp. on continental routes) by BEE though :-(

[Expressflight]

adfly

The F70 will not be payload restricted at SOU.

[adfly]

SOU 2017 Stats

Summarises passenger numbers & changes on all regular scheduled and charter routes for 2017, I have included all routes served on a scheduled/ charter basis.

UK

Aberdeen - 14,217 (+112%)
Alderney - 23,692 (+2%)
Belfast City - 118,840 (+1%)
East Midlands - 652 (New)
Edinburgh - 208,105 (+5%)
Exeter - 596 (New)
Glasgow - 197,769 (+10%)
Guernsey - 117,244 (-14%)
Jersey - 167,483 (+3%)
Leeds Bradford - 34,803 (-15%)
Manchester - 203,162 (+8%)
Newcastle - 130,256 (+7%)

Total UK - 1,216,819

Republic of Ireland

Cork - 24,119 (+47%)
Dublin - 140,752+(+6%)

Total Republic of Ireland - 164,871

France

Avignon - 6,114 (+34%)
Bastia - 2,141 (-7%)
Bergerac - 37,490 (+3%)
Biarritz - 5,416 (+40%)
Bordeaux - 13,937 (+195%)
Brest - 2,916 (-33%)
Chambery - 8,658 (-9%)
La Rochelle - 17,352 (+4%)
Limoges - 17,444 (+23%)
Lyon - 18,647 (+64%)
Nantes - 23,319 (-9%)
Paris CDG - 63,032 (+148%)
Paris Orly - 14,392 (-78%)
Perpignan - 2,326 (-17%)
Rennes - 15,588 (-18%)
Rodez - 851 (New)
Toulon - 9,024 (+99%)

Total France - 258,647

Netherlands

Amsterdam - 229,184 (+22%)

Germany

Dusseldorf - 30,342 (+3%)
Munich - 33,590 (+23%)

Total Germany - 63,934

Switzerland

Geneva - 8,402 (+38%)

Austria

Innsbruck - 786 (-51%)

Italy

Verona - 7,397 (+<1%)

Spain

Alicante - 34,813 (+3%)
Ibiza - 4,153 (New)
Palma - 29,195 (-30%)
Malaga - 30,652 (+31%)

Total Spain - 98,813

Portugal

Faro - 20,851 (+30%)

Finland

Entontekio - 752 (+10%)
Ivalo - 306 (+2%)

Total Finland - 1058


Total Overall - 2,069,910 (+6%) (Includes charters/one off flights/diversions etc)

[stewyb]

SOU 2017 Stats

Summarises passenger numbers & changes on all regular scheduled and charter routes for 2017, I have included all routes served on a scheduled/ charter basis.

UK

Aberdeen - 14,217 (+112%)
Alderney - 23,692 (+2%)
Belfast City - 118,840 (+1%)
East Midlands - 652 (New)
Edinburgh - 208,105 (+5%)
Exeter - 596 (New)
Glasgow - 197,769 (+10%)
Guernsey - 117,244 (-14%)
Jersey - 167,483 (+3%)
Leeds Bradford - 34,803 (-15%)
Manchester - 203,162 (+8%)
Newcastle - 130,256 (+7%)

Total UK - 1,216,819

Republic of Ireland

Cork - 24,119 (+47%)
Dublin - 140,752+(+6%)

Total Republic of Ireland - 164,871

France

Avignon - 6,114 (+34%)
Bastia - 2,141 (-7%)
Bergerac - 37,490 (+3%)
Biarritz - 5,416 (+40%)
Bordeaux - 13,937 (+195%)
Brest - 2,916 (-33%)
Chambery - 8,658 (-9%)
La Rochelle - 17,352 (+4%)
Limoges - 17,444 (+23%)
Lyon - 18,647 (+64%)
Nantes - 23,319 (-9%)
Paris CDG - 63,032 (+148%)
Paris Orly - 14,392 (-78%)
Perpignan - 2,326 (-17%)
Rennes - 15,588 (-18%)
Rodez - 851 (New)
Toulon - 9,024 (+99%)

Total France - 258,647

Netherlands

Amsterdam - 229,184 (+22%)

Germany

Dusseldorf - 30,342 (+3%)
Munich - 33,590 (+23%)

Total Germany - 63,934

Switzerland

Geneva - 8,402 (+38%)

Austria

Innsbruck - 786 (-51%)

Italy

Verona - 7,397 (+<1%)

Spain

Alicante - 34,813 (+3%)
Ibiza - 4,153 (New)
Palma - 29,195 (-30%)
Malaga - 30,652 (+31%)

Total Spain - 98,813

Portugal

Faro - 20,851 (+30%)

Finland

Entontekio - 752 (+10%)
Ivalo - 306 (+2%)

Total Finland - 1058


Total Overall - 2,069,910 (+6%) (Includes charters/one off flights/diversions etc)

A healthy increase on MUC route, yet BMI have pulled the plug, baffling!
A large decrease on PMI, why?

[Richard Taylor]

+112% for my local (ABZ) is welcome - wonder what drove that (leisure or business).

[Wycombe]

+112% for my local (ABZ) is welcome - wonder what drove that (leisure or business).

Some direct weekend flights by Flybe last Summer IIRC, as opposed to previous indirect-only options with Eastern?

[The Nutts Mutts]

That was indeed the case, there were also direct flights this winter season ABZ-SOU on a Friday evening and SOU-ABZ on a Sunday evening. I think they're selling seats on a positioning flight as the aircraft operates SOU routes for the weekend before heading back north. Loads seem fairly healthy. The direct flights stop this summer but return again for winter 18/19

[Rivet Joint]

This airport is such a joke. There has been a light smattering of snow and by 11:30 only 2 departures. The first has already arrived in Guernsey and in that time only the EZY has departed. If an A320 can use the runway why can't all these BE Q400s! And why cancel odd flights at complete random? Especially routes with only one rotation! Such a badly badly run airport.

[Planespeaking]

This airport is such a joke. There has been a light smattering of snow and by 11:30 only 2 departures. The first has already arrived in Guernsey and in that time only the EZY has departed. If an A320 can use the runway why can't all these BE Q400s! And why cancel odd flights at complete random? Especially routes with only one rotation! Such a badly badly run airport.

Q400s seem to be very prone to icing conditions. Several BEQ400s and a Luxair Q400 diverted to SEN yesterday because of severe inflight icing into LCY. So it may not be an airport failing but an airframe problem.

[Deano777]

It's not an icing issue, the icing does have a major impact on operations into LCY due to the steep approaches, something SOU doesn't have, but rather than it being ineptitude from the airport I'm sure there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for it because they wouldn't just not move the flights for the sake of it. The issue is, Rivet, you don't know what this reason is so you're just saying "there's a bit of snow and the flights haven't moved, they're a joke", which is the normal response from the general public, I would expect better from you considering you're in, or was in the industry.

[Planespeaking]

It's not an icing issue, the icing does have a major impact on operations into LCY due to the steep approaches, something SOU doesn't have, but rather than it being ineptitude from the airport I'm sure there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for it because they wouldn't just not move the flights for the sake of it. The issue is, Rivet, you don't know what this reason is so you're just saying "there's a bit of snow and the flights haven't moved, they're a joke", which is the normal response from the general public, I would expect better from you considering you're in, or was in the industry.

I'm sorry it was an icing issue, and not just because of LCY's steep approach.There were several Q400s calling into SEN because of severe icing problems in the South East, it does seem that Q400s have certain problems whilst the ATRs seem to be less susceptable. I have no knowledge of the operational decisions made at SOU, however the main point is that Hampshire wasn't showered with aluminium as well as snow. Live to fly another day.

[Deano777]

No I don't think you understand. It's a performance issue, as soon as you have ice on the airframe then operations into LCY is prohibited and this is due to the steep approach, this can even be a trace of ice. The ATR isn't certified to fly into severe icing just the same as the Q400, infact most planes in the sky aren't certified. You'll most likely find this was only Q400 operations into LCY and not Q400 operations into any other airport. I've flown it in both the left and the right seat for over 5,000hrs. I know it's capability. The Q400 is very resilient in icing conditions and it flies as good as any other turboprop, if not better. Google ATR and icing and it'll be very enlightening.

[SWBKCB]

it does seem that Q400s have certain problems whilst the ATRs seem to be less susceptable.

You might want to look at the history of ATR operations in North America...

[Planespeaking]

You might want to look at the history of ATR operations in North America...

Yes I'm aware of that, I'm talking about operations today.

[stewyb]

This airport is such a joke. There has been a light smattering of snow and by 11:30 only 2 departures. The first has already arrived in Guernsey and in that time only the EZY has departed. If an A320 can use the runway why can't all these BE Q400s! And why cancel odd flights at complete random? Especially routes with only one rotation! Such a badly badly run airport.

Give it a rest Rivet!

[Tagron]

Deano 777

Is the problem at LCY that on approach engine power may need to be increased to provide adequate bleed air pressure to operate the wing de-icing but it is this extra power that causes difficulty in maintaining the steep glideslope ? And then the short runway at LCY (1319m LDA) is not the place to be arriving with an excess of energy.

Genuine question, I was never Q400 qualified, just basing it on experience of other types.

[Deano777]

Tagron the issue is when you have ice on the Q400 airframe you have to increase your Vref by 15kts (flap 35). In doing so you push up your ground speed. Clearly if your ground speed has increased then you need an increase in rate of descent to maintain the glideslope. If you increase your ROD then you clearly increase your forward speed. The way to control that is obviously to reduce your power but with the power levers near idle anyway you're in the realms of not being able to control your speed (speed unstable regime of a high aspect ratio wing anyone?), or not having alot of authority left behind your right hand.
Then after all that you have to take your landing performance into consideration. The go around performance and gradients at LCY are reasonably standard.

[MARKEYD]

You need to move on guys , or go onto a different thread regarding all this stuff about performance issues on aircraft

[Buster the Bear]

I would imagine that the surface conditions today were blighted by snow and ice, the latter is particularly difficult and expensive to deal with. I assume that there are no Ops staff at EGHI 24/7? It could be that the morning shift had quite a bit to deal with?

[Deano777]

Says who MARKEYD? I was asked a question, I answered it. Get over it.

[Tagron]

Deano777

Thank you for your reply. I wasn't aware the icing increment as was as high as 15kts. Thats a lot of speed to lose.

[Rivet Joint]

Give it a rest Rivet!

I could if the airport wasn't so inept. It doesn't help when the main operator is flymaybe. Bet they were rubbing their hands with glee this morning at the prospect of all the potential for havoc they could unleash on the poor people who had no choice but to use them. SOUs twitter and Facebook is full of angry comments. Turns out the slow departures this morning were because there was only one de-iceing team. Of course SOU and flymaybe were nowhere to be seen. Let's not forget their snow clearing equipment appears to be two tractors that they have probably borrowed from a local farmer. An airport run by small minded people with small minded aspirations. Oh and guess what, it's closed again. Pathetic.

[Deano777]

the main operator is flymaybe.

:D:D:} that's sooooooo funny, we haven't heard that one before, my goodness can I steal that phrase please so I can start using it? It's brilliant :}:D:D

[Pringle_]

What a joke they didn't spend a few million on snow clearing equipment...

[01475]

Absolute scandal. Heads should roll. Unbelievable. Has the likes of this ever caused disruption at every other airport in a similar climate, and to every airline that operates from them? Apart from Slothampton the only ones I can think of are those on this list of shame (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_the_United_Kingdom_and_the_British_Crown _Dependencies)

I hope they take a long hard look at themselves and then singlehandedly adjust the economic climate in which airlines and airports operate so they can make the necessary improvements.

[stewyb]

LoLo Flights have a busy program from SOU for S19 now bookable in their system (Jun-Oct):

Monday - Corfu/Kefalonia/Kalamata (Corfu ends, Kalamata starts)
Tuesday - Skiathos/Murcia/Salonika
Wednesday - Kos/ Almeria
Thursday - Pristina/Tivat
Friday - Split/Skiathos/Bari
Saturday - Dubrovnik/Kos/Murcia
Sunday - Bourgas/Almeria

That's a tight schedule to carry out planned routes using a rumoured ex KLM F70 and hope the air frame is reliable!!

[RW20]

Stewyb
An ambitious program from Lolo, something Southampton needs,however will a F70 capacity offer a decent pax price to make it a viable propersition?.Would a F100 be more appropriate?.
Surely a Palma flight would offer a more attractive propersition,given the fact that there is a huge reduction in capacity from SOU on this route.

[stewyb]

Not sure if a F100 would be payload restricted for some of the Greece flights?

[Rivet Joint]

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/16104908.amp/

[stewyb]

If this is to be the last summer for the E95 on sun routes before it leaves the BE fleet, interested to get your thoughts on whether the E75 can replace it from SOU or are there field performance restrictions in hot conditions!? This of course will have a bearing on whether BE continue the med destinations, cheers

[rog747]

LoLo Flights have a busy program from SOU for S19 now bookable in their system (Jun-Oct):

Monday - Corfu/Kefalonia/Kalamata (Corfu ends, Kalamata starts)
Tuesday - Skiathos/Murcia/Salonika
Wednesday - Kos/ Almeria
Thursday - Pristina/Tivat
Friday - Split/Skiathos/Bari
Saturday - Dubrovnik/Kos/Murcia
Sunday - Bourgas/Almeria

That's a tight schedule to carry out planned routes using a rumoured ex KLM F70 and hope the air frame is reliable!!

an adventurous schedule even for a small time specialist tour proprietor running out of LGW let alone SOU

sorry to be raining on the parade but this lot will not see the light of day unless the sales pitch is strong and hard

[Nakata77]

Strong and Hard.

Amen.

[adfly]

Looks as if Dusseldorf will be dropped from the end of the summer season, unless there is still more of the Flybe winter schedule to be released.

Small bit of good news is the Esprit Ski/Ski Total flights to Chambery will be operated by an E195 rather than a Q400 this coming winter.

https://www.southamptonairport.com/news/news-press/2018/03/14/delight-for-southampton-skiers-with-more-choice-to-chambery/

[canberra97]

Hopefully Düsseldorf has yet to be loaded into the system if not that means there will be no more links from SOU to Germany which is unbelievable really considering at one point or another we've had links to DUS, FRA, HAM (via ANR), HAJ, MUN and PAD.

If only Eurowings weren't so stretched fleet wise as their DHC8's would be perfect for a couple of German destinations from SOU.

We definitely seem to be going backwards at SOU with these recent cutbacks in the destinations.

Wishful thinking but SOU could have seen a few of those routes continued by,

Düsseldorf by Eurowings
Hamburg by Eurowings
Lyon by HOP
Munich by Eurowings

Over the last three decades SOU has lost and gained many routes but it has never been able to reach the full figure of 50 destinations on offer at any time which for an airport having such a large and fairly affluent catchment area is unbelievable.

Previous destinations that have come and gone from Southampton over those decades are,

Alghero, Angers, Antwerp, Barcelona, Belfast International, Berne, Biarritz, Birmingham, Blackpool, Bristol, Brussels, Caen, Cardiff, Cherbourg, Clermont-Ferrand, Deauville, Dinard, Dijon, Dubrovnik, Exeter, Frankfurt, Galway, Grenoble, Hamburg, Hannover, Inverness, Isle of Man, Le Havre, Le Touquet, Liverpool, Malta, Milan MXP, Munich, Murcia, Newquay, Nice, Paderborn, Paris ORLY, Pau, Rotterdam, Split, St Mary's, Teesside, Tenerife, Toulouse, Tours, Varna, Zurich.

That's a lot but obviously quite a few of those destinations would not be possible these days but there are quite a few that are especially if the likes of Easyjet were interested.

[rog747]

we used to have IBZ and MAH too? Thomson with air Europa i think?

[MARKEYD]

Based E 195 arrives this weekend for the start of the summer routes to Palma , Faro , Malaga and Alicante

Easy jet flights moves to a Sat until mid April , which is when they should release there winter schedule

Nothing on the Southampton website regarding the Lolo flights for next summer , I would imagine they want a little bit more detail about who is operating etc before it goes viral

[canberra97]

we used to have IBZ and MAH too? Thomson with air Europa i think?

IBZ and MAH are current destinations from SOU for summer 2018 with Volotea to IBZ and Flybe to MAH both operating on behalf of TUI.

That's why neither we're in my list of former destinations ex SOU!

[rog747]

IBZ and MAH are current destinations from SOU for summer 2018 with Volotea to IBZ and Flybe to MAH both operating on behalf of TUI.

That's why neither we're in my list of former destinations ex SOU!

ah - missed that
must be charters then>? good to see Thomson still going there

[Rivet Joint]

Hopefully Düsseldorf has yet to be loaded into the system if not that means there will be no more links from SOU to Germany which is unbelievable really considering at one point or another we've had links to DUS, FRA, HAM (via ANR), HAJ, MUN and PAD.

If only Eurowings weren't so stretched fleet wise as their DHC8's would be perfect for a couple of German destinations from SOU.

We definitely seem to be going backwards at SOU with these recent cutbacks in the destinations.

Wishful thinking but SOU could have seen a few of those routes continued by,

Düsseldorf by Eurowings
Hamburg by Eurowings
Lyon by HOP
Munich by Eurowings

Over the last three decades SOU has lost and gained many routes but it has never been able to reach the full figure of 50 destinations on offer at any time which for an airport having such a large and fairly affluent catchment area is unbelievable.

Previous destinations that have come and gone from Southampton over those decades are,

Alghero, Angers, Antwerp, Barcelona, Belfast International, Berne, Biarritz, Birmingham, Blackpool, Bristol, Brussels, Caen, Cardiff, Cherbourg, Clermont-Ferrand, Deauville, Dinard, Dijon, Dubrovnik, Exeter, Frankfurt, Galway, Grenoble, Hamburg, Hannover, Inverness, Isle of Man, Le Havre, Le Touquet, Liverpool, Malta, Milan MXP, Munich, Murcia, Newquay, Nice, Paderborn, Paris ORLY, Pau, Rotterdam, Split, St Mary's, Teesside, Tenerife, Toulouse, Tours, Varna, Zurich.

That's a lot but obviously quite a few of those destinations would not be possible these days but there are quite a few that are especially if the likes of Easyjet were interested.

Who operated the Zurich route? Cannot remember that one.

It is very strange as you say. The Munich one is more odd for me. BM aren't exactly blessed with a good route network, and the SOU route was clearly growing (23% this year). Düsseldorf would undoubtedly be a loss as well, but flymaybe are getting rid of a load of Q400s without any replacements. The continental routes are going to be the first to go, Lyon looked to have performed well but is being dropped also. Ezy are definitely the perfect fit for SOU and hopefully the new MD will give them anything they want. Here's an interesting question, what would SOU look like now if Stobart had bought from BAA?

[canberra97]

ah - missed that
must be charters then>? good to see Thomson still going there

Or TUI even as the brand name of Thomson is history!

Just in case you also missed it but Volotea also fly to Palma twice weekly on behalf of TUI, no scheduled flights from Volotea ex SOU for summer 2018 just the three charter flights for TUI to Ibiza and Palma.

[canberra97]

Who operated the Zurich route? Cannot remember that one.

It is very strange as you say. The Munich one is more odd for me. BM aren't exactly blessed with a good route network, and the SOU route was clearly growing (23% this year). Düsseldorf would undoubtedly be a loss as well, but flymaybe are getting rid of a load of Q400s without any replacements. The continental routes are going to be the first to go, Lyon looked to have performed well but is being dropped also. Ezy are definitely the perfect fit for SOU and hopefully the new MD will give them anything they want. Here's an interesting question, what would SOU look like now if Stobart had bought from BAA?

British Airways operated SOU to ZURICH six weekly flights with EMB145, the timings weren't perfect for business as they left SOU mid afternoon.

British Airways had a fairly decent network from Southampton at one point during the 1990's and early 2000's and operated to the following destinations Belfast City, Brussels, Edinburgh, Frankfurt, Glasgow, Guernsey, Isle of Man (former Manx Airways route), Leeds, Manchester, Paris, Zurich.

In the mid to late 1980's British Airways operated a short lived Edinburgh-Manchester-Birmingham-Southampton route with a HS748.

Prior to April 1980 British Airways operated twice daily to Jersey with Viscount 800, prior to 1976 British also operated a daily service to Paris LBG with Viscount 800 (former Cambrian route).

If British Airways Cityflyer had spare aircraft available which they currently don't have as all of the LCY aircraft are busy during the summer they would also be an excellent fit at SOU along with Easyjet.

The management have to seriously look at alternative airlines to take up the slack at SOU otherwise this downward trend will only continue and at a time when the airport had finally reached the two million passenger mark for the first time.

With regards to Stobart, I'm also curious of what could have happened if they had bought SOU rather than SEN and the similar investment that could have been made at the airport.

[rog747]

Or TUI even as the brand name of Thomson is history!

Just in case you also missed it but Volotea also fly to Palma twice weekly on behalf of TUI, no scheduled flights from Volotea ex SOU for summer 2018 just the three charter flights for TUI to Ibiza and Palma.

still got BY flight numbers - hanging in there!

yes thanks i knew Volo had canned the 2018 scheduled flights from SOU and SEN

[canberra97]

TUI and Thomson before that hasn't used the BY flight code for several years they use TOM.

TUI don't add their flight code to outsourced flying as both Flybe and Volotea use their own codes regardless of the fact that they are operating on behalf of TUI.

It's Lolo Flights not Volo!

LoLo flights are using a EMB195 from Flybe for SOU to Skiathos from July to September 2018, it's a charter flight not a 'scheduled' flight, Kalamata was to be added from late September up until the end of the summer season but the flights never went on sale.

There hasn't been anything confirmed relating to the cancellation of the LoLo flight program for summer 2019, I should imagine that their planned frequencies have yet to have aircraft allocated but I have to admit it does sound a bit over ambitious, we're just have to wait and see!

[SWBKCB]

I think Volo is being used as a shortened form of Volotea, not a reference to Lolo