Ryanair Cancelling flights!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Let's hope O'Leary doesn't have the last laugh.
Stick together

[ExDubai]

Yepp and keep in mind this is a log distance race....

I like the FR response....
https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-to-face-down-ialpa-threatened-strike/?market=ie

While some disruption may occur, Ryanair believes this will largely be confined to a small group of pilots who are working their notice and will shortly leave Ryanair, so they don’t care how much upset they cause colleagues or customers.

[dirk85]

https://image.ibb.co/gguYSw/Schermata_2017_12_12_alle_17_33_46.png (https://imgbb.com/)

[Sober Lark]

CAMP IT compliments of IMPACT.

[Reversethrustset]

Parasites like this are endemic in the industry unfortunately. The best thing to do is not turn up for work, then when he takes it away just organise more industrial action. You and he will soon realise the power is in the workforce and not with this grubby little weasel.

[Dualbleed]

“Eddie Wilson” What a fantastic set of people skills he must possess. Petty little dictator comes to mind. !

[ExDubai]

What's the ratio on the LHS between direct employment and contracting at FR?

[gearlever]

To say "VC is a LUFTHANSA UNION" means to claim Trump to be "President of Women's lib".

[McBruce]

This process which needs done will almost certainly create pain on both sides but its a procedure that needs undertaken otherwise they will always dominate you as a work force. If they take away the 5/4 roster, given your already high on hours.... What could go wrong eh :E the history of the 5/4 is because they needed it to stop crew getting high on hours.

Internal flights and shorter sectors on the continent mean't a lot of bases would be more optimum for them on a 5/3. Force them to the table under your terms, not theirs. Good luck.

[TheMightyAtom]

What's the ratio on the LHS between direct employment and contracting at FR?

At a meeting Eddie said something like 70/30 employee/contractor for LHS. Then 15/85 for RHS

[KelvinD]

Their Italian pilots too are planning to strike.

[GScapture]

All the best guys and girls, stick together. They can threat with 5/3 as much as they like but the fact is; They do not have enough crew.

[hunnywagon]

Good luck to Ryanair pilots with their strike. TCX's management were forced to think again when their BALPA pilot members launched a successful industrial action. No one wants to do it, but you've got to stand up to the bullies.

[Sonikt]

They can threat with 5/3 as much as they like but the fact is; They do not have enough crew.

Such an obviously ludicrous threat shows that Ryanair are out of options

Even if they do out of sheer arrogance change the roster, this will simply exacerbate the existing crewing issue, giving crew more leverage in the dispute.

So keep going everyone - you literally can't loose this one!

[compton3bravo]

Chief People Officer - that is a new one on me! He sounds like a right so -and-so to put it mildly.

[Rated De]

To a hammer, the problem is always a nail...

More of the same. Stay respectful and indifferent, their model of human response and remedy expects emotion (they set it up like that) so that their various veiled threats can be wheeled out against those steeping up.

Quiet indifference is the key. If one is fatigued and stressed it is hard to operate.

'Gandhi once observed that every movement goes through four stages: First they ignore you; then they abuse you; then they crack down on you and then you win'.

[Rated De]

Ryanair is also free – under both Irish & EU law – to decline to engage with (competitor pilot) unions. Ryanair will not recognise an Aer Lingus pilot union, no matter how often or how long this tiny minority (earning between €150,000 to €190,000 p.a.) try to disrupt our flights or our customers plans during Christmas week.

Oh this reminds me of Olivia Wirth at Qantas during the 'dispute' in 2011, management induced crisis it was!

She stated pilots 'wanted first class travel and massages'
CEO Mr Joyce chipping in with an A380 Captain has a 'higher pay rate than i do...

Oh those pesky overpaid bus drivers Michael. How does your tenure look Michael when revenue is declining quarter on quarter?

[South Prince]

To a hammer, the problem is always a nail...

More of the same. Stay respectful and indifferent, their model of human response and remedy expects emotion (they set it up like that) so that their various veiled threats can be wheeled out against those steeping up.

Quiet indifference is the key. If one is fatigued and stressed it is hard to operate.

'Gandhi once observed that every movement goes through four stages: First they ignore you; then they abuse you; then they crack down on you and then you win'.


As an outside observer they are pretty well set up for another spring/summer crack down on crewing issues if they do not really switch manners.

[Jwscud]

Eddie Wilson has always been Ryanair’s Union Buster in chief. He was responsible for the negotiations that led to Ryanair pulling out of Denmark after the CPH Unions stood up to Ryanair over conditions for cabin crew there.

He’s a nasty piece of work.

Best of luck to all my former colleagues - delighted to see things are finally changing :D

[GSMini]

Stop promotions, stop 5/4... so, more hours, less captains... and they already have a massive crewing problem.

As has been said, keep going on strong, be united. THEY have a massive problem.

[macdo]

As the TCX pilots have proved yesterday, you can take management on in a calm and sensible way and win a reasonable settlement.
The best of luck to the RYR pilots in their efforts to make their management be reasonable.

[Fladbrokeandbusted]

Would be a great time for some of the contracters to catch a Flu...

[45989]

Balls would be required.
If one was stupid enough to have to paid for training/ type rating not very likely especially if one goes dutch!

[Marchettiman]

Stop promotions, stop 5/4... so, more hours, less captains... and they already have a massive crewing problem.

As has been said, keep going on strong, be united. THEY have a massive problem.

If you read the memo from the Chief People Officer carefully it is addressed to Cabin Crew and only mentions pilots peripherally.

The threat is that if any single cabin crew member takes industrial action all of them at that base will be penalised. That reminds me of the old tactic at school of threatening to put the whole class in detention until the student who let out an enormous passage of wind owned up.

What a pathetic way to treat staff on whom you rely for your passengers' safety and generating a good part of your net profit!

[ExDubai]

The next one.....
https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2017/1213/927138-ryanair/

The Spanish pilots' union, SEPLA, has told Ryanair that it reserves the right to take legal action in pursuit of trade union rights....

[ExDubai]

Surprise surprise, portugese FR pilots strike on Dec. 20th.
Ryanair pilots in Portugal to strike on same day as some... (http://www.newstalk.com/Ryanair-pilots-in-Portugal-to-strike-on-same-day-as-some-Dublinbased-pilots)

[Skipname]

I hope the Spanish, German and even the Italian bases will join them on the strike on the same day. In an ideal world the UK bases will join them too. That would really stick it to MOL - I know I am being very optimistic

[Vokes55]

I'd at very least expect those contractors serving their notice (of which there must be a few) to join the strike on the 20th.

Besides, there's plenty of flu and fever going around.

[Can737]

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ryanair-pilots-in-germany-signal-strike-action-1.3326552?mode=amp&__twitter_impression=true

Interesting.


Mr Phillips estimated that Ryanair has between 370 and 390 pilots in Germany and that more than half of them are members. “Every day there are new applications coming in. They are joining to support the action,” he said.

He pointed out that local law also allows Ryanair pilots who are not members of the union to strike, so its action could potentially hit the airline’s entire German operation.

[ilvaporista]

It's ramping up in Italy with even Government Ministers calling the memo to staff 'unworthy'
It's in Italian
http://www.corriere.it/economia/17_dicembre_14/minacce-antisciopero-governo-contro-ryanair-64ad4840-e046-11e7-b8cc-37049f602793.shtml
The Employment Minister even made comments that the right to strike forms part of the laws of Italy and that any attempt to remove this right will be investigated by the relevant magistrates.

[IRRenewal]

In an ideal world the UK bases will join them too. That would really stick it to MOL - I know I am being very optimistic

The UK has some of the toughest rules to follow to initiate industrial action. It's a process which takes 6 to 8 weeks and has to comply with numerous technicalities to make it legal.

[speed_alive_rotate]

Is the ball even rolling in terms of the UK pilots getting on board?

Wish all my fellow pilot professionals at Ryanair the very best of luck , stay strong and stay together!
You have the complete backing of the whole pilot community.

[Smooth Airperator]

The biggest UK bases are where the whipper snappers and new commanders probably come to train. Precisely the kind of pilot who'd be too scared to act.

[skyloone]

From what I recall, STN does have a significant transient training flow through it. Folks not actually based there, just rostered for training. If STN Old guard were to dig their heels in then MOL would quite possibly be in a spot. As mentioned above, it does appear to require a much higher threshold to get the ball rolling in the UK. Apparently it has to be a postal vote.... many based there live abroad. I suspect UK government not keen to bring union voting into the electronic age. UK rules pretty tricky and open to legal challenge at each step. That said, I gather union membership on the rise. BALPA appear quite cautious in their approach. Playing the long game? Just have to make sure the games not over before you join! That I suppose is down to whether FR pilots want to create long term sustainable t&c’s or leave the gig economy circus. Perhaps jump ship to the next outfit struggling to keep afloat due to FR’s continued reduction in unit costs while their new employer bears the costs of a proper employment model.

[RAFAT]

Wish all my fellow pilot professionals at Ryanair the very best of luck , stay strong and stay together!

You have the complete backing of the whole pilot community.



Yes they absolutely have our backing, but if Ryanair crew were totally defeated in their efforts there's nothing really that those of us outside of Ryanair would be willing or able to do. It's a sad fact, but pilots mostly act as individuals rather than a true "community". I truly wish that this wasn't the case.

[MaverickPrime]

This fight sets the precedent for the whole industry, it’s the labour relations battle that we’ve all been waiting for. If FR management can crush the pilots demands when FR is in such a critically bad state in terms of crewing, then it sends a signal to everyone in the industry that the pilots have been defeated and management really can get away with what they like. If however, the pilots can bring the giant of Ryanair to the negotiating table; management across the industry will realise that they can’t get away with what they like forever.

[schweizer2]

For any pilots currently flying for the Irish mob, I congratulate you for your efforts and wish you all the best. I hope more bases will come together and hurt the billion dollar winning company where it hurts in order to finally have decent reward for the hard work you all do.

I just hope you guys do not leave this as a one day strike where management can take the hit for a single day, would love to see you guys take every Friday off until management pull their heads out their arses!

[ExDubai]

That won't be done in a single day strike. VC assigned Ingolf Schumacher to the case. He was also responsible for the LH campaign.

[RAFAT]

MaverickPrime - Good words and I really hope it turns out that way.

[Sonikt]

It's a shame that most likely this can't be a coordinated total shutdown and no doubt FR will pull out all the stops to minimize disruption.

However provided the planned strikes actually go ahead and result in a significant and visible number of canceled flights this action will have a massive psychological impact for customers, media and the markets.

For the markets it will be a clear demonstration that FR have lost their iron grip on IR. That any significant number of crews are willing to actually walk out sends a very strong message.

The dispute has already caught the attention of various authorities around Europe, so any retaliation against striking crews will attract intense regulatory & media interest and possible legal actions. Sneaky tactics like failing SIM are not going to fly under such scrutiny.

Striking FR crews have commitments from worldwide unions to provide legal support and funding if required. This support WILL be forthcoming if needed because the outcome of this dispute maters to the whole industry.

FR will have a difficult time turning the public against striking crews for any disruption - due to the shambolic handling of the previous cancellations, the public will blame FR regardless.

TLDR;

Anyone who can should not be afraid to join the strikes because practical and legal support is in place that goes well beyond mere platitudes.

You have far, far more to loose by failing to follow this through.

[Arewerunning]

For the RYR Italian pilots:

Why not pressing charges against Wilson?

It would be a very easy case for a Labor Judge to rule...

[Skipname]

Not just the Italian bases but anywhere in Europe as a matter of fact. Employers can't threaten crew.

[Farrell]

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/1215/927552-ryanair-industrial-action/

...and THAT'S kicking your ass!

Well done, folks!

[73qanda]

Well done alright.
We’ve been watching from all around the world, congratulations on this important step.

[SliabhLuachra]

Holy crap 'Ryanair has agreed to recognise trade unions to avert the strike action by pilots today'

[Fofioo]

From the BBC

Ryanair says it has invited pilots unions from several counties to talks that could recognise them.

Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary said:

"Recognising unions will be a significant change for Ryanair, but we have delivered radical change before.

"Putting the needs of our customers first, and avoiding disruption to their Christmas flights, is the reason why we will now deal with our pilots through recognised national union structures and we hope and expect that these structures can and will be agreed with our pilots early in the New Year.”

[limahotel]

Wow, is this for real?

[737Jock]

Well done! #unity

[Can737]

The Irish company has written to pilot organizations in Ireland, the U.K., Germany, Italy, Spain and Portugal inviting each of them to talks “to recognize these unions as the representative body for pilots in Ryanair in each of these countries,” it said in a statement Friday.



Ideally they would recognize EERC for all the 80+ bases, but it is a first step.

[Bernoulli]

Well, it just shows what you can do if you stick together. Wow!

There'll be a lot of euphoria on the various bulletin boards but it's worth remembering that most Leopards don't change their spots. Ryanair have proven themselves to be masters of spin and this may just be another of their twists and turns. It's critical that all the Ryanair pilots now stick together and force through changes for the better. Better for themselves and better for the rest of the airline industry.

The long road towards decent Ts&Cs within Ryanair begins now so stick together, keep going and good luck.

(I'm assuming this isn't some kind of false news :hmm:

[TURIN]

Excellent news.

Now the really hard work begins. A union is only as strong as its members and you need reps and stewards with skin as thick as M.O's ego.

Good luck. :ok:

[schweizer2]

I believe a chain reaction has now begun, if they refuse to recognise all other bases, they will simply threaten to go on strike themselves.
I say bravo and keep the pressure up!

[Klimax]

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/1215/927552-ryanair-industrial-action/

...and THAT'S kicking your ass!

Well done, folks!

Bloody good work! Michael O'Lier down on his knees - what a wonderful position to see him in! A sincere congratulations to all the brave Ryanair pilots for standing your grounds! A giant leap forward!

[Skornogr4phy]

Or it could be a cheap ploy to delay the strikes until after Christmas when they will do less damage. Only time will see.

[repulo]

Very well done folks!

But be cautious, you won a battle, but not the war. Most of you don’t have any bargaining experience, stay united and listen to the advice of long time experts like VC Ingolf Schumacher and others from the various countries! FR will try to screw you wherever possible.

Congrats anyhow!

[ShotOne]

Great work! Well played, guys. And no, we don't need O'Leary on his knees, just to recognise his employees as professionals who are doing a great job for him.

[EI-mech]

Here it is from the horse's mouth:

Ryanair Statement (https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-agrees-to-recognise-pilot-unions-to-avoid-widespread-customer-disruptions-over-christmas-period/)

This is probably the most important bit:
...as long as they establish Committees of Ryanair pilots to deal with Ryanair issues, as Ryanair will not engage with pilots who fly for competitor airlines in Ireland or elsewhere.

No union reps from other airlines allowed.

[Skipname]

I think if they are trying to pull this, more pilots will be motivated to join future strikes because Ryanair publicly admitted that they are afraid of strikes.

[ExDubai]

Hmm... didn't expect that so fast....

[beardy]

In what circumstances do you think a company council would have representation from another company's pilots? Would not union officers suffice?

[TURIN]

Here it is from the horse's mouth:

Ryanair Statement (https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-agrees-to-recognise-pilot-unions-to-avoid-widespread-customer-disruptions-over-christmas-period/)

This is probably the most important bit:


No union reps from other airlines allowed.

That is standard procedure.

[seafire6b]

Beware of O'Leary bearing gifts...!

[Alsacienne]

Be careful he doesn't pull out of the talks once the unions agree to drop the planned strike action ... after all he's only 'invited' them to talk and invitations can be withdrawn if something more desirable comes up as is often the case with pre-Christmas 'parties'!

Great progress (well done to those who held true) but don't let FR weasel out of recognizing trade unions what should be a mandatory legal part of running a company these days.

[Una Due Tfc]

Here it is from the horse's mouth:

Ryanair Statement (https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-agrees-to-recognise-pilot-unions-to-avoid-widespread-customer-disruptions-over-christmas-period/)

This is probably the most important bit:


No union reps from other airlines allowed.

So will his contract pilots be represented?

[BARKINGMAD]

Does this mean Hell has frozen over?

Mo'L stated it would happen before he'd recognise/permit representation.

I'm not in Hell yet but heading for it so I will report back on the met conditions there if allowed a connection.............:rolleyes:

[RHINO]

I think the devil is in the detail.....won't talk to other pilots unions ie the Ryanair works councils will now be called unions. Problem solved...we now have unions so why are you striking. It is trying to wrest the initiative away from the pilots and ultimately show them as being the ones ruining holidays etc etc. When you look at the crewing situation for next summer we now know where the blame is headed...those pesky unions and their precious pilots.

This is nothing more than a stunt to get through the Xmas period...

The letters may as well have been signed

'by order of the Peaky Blinders'

[RAT 5]

I suspect there might have been a few major share-holders making whispers. Perhaps other outside agencies as well. Or do people believe this was a real 'Road to Damascus' moment?

[SD.]

Now the unions/EERC involved have 5 days to get MOL around the table. They often call snap townhall meetings, take-it-or-leave-it type offers.

Hit him whilst he is on his knees, Christmas strikes will hit hard. You've got 5 days chaps, make them count :ok:

If there are any casulties, the ECA have set up a fund https://www.gofundme.com/pilotunity2017

This is a European Industry problem, lets help them help us all.

[ayroplain]

I suspect there might have been a few major share-holders making whispers. Perhaps other outside agencies as well. Or do people believe this was a real 'Road to Damascus' moment?
I wouldn't say "Road to Damascus" just probably the inevitable realisation that the only way out of the situation that has developed was a compromise. I can perfectly understand why FR wouldn't want, for example, Aer Lingus IALPA pilots involved in any negotiations so offering to deal with unions on the suggested basis should give his pilots the bargaining facilities they want for themselves.

I believe the Italians have already called off their strike today but no word as yet from any other unions. I'm sure that IALPA were not expecting to wake up to this news and are possibly in a quandary as to how to respond but the ball has now been very effectively transferred to their court.

As things stand, this surprise move makes it, in football parlance, 1-1 with penalties about to be taken :)

[GScapture]

I hope they are being extra cautious about anything they agree with the company. Everyone knows their ways of getting things “solved” during the past 15 years or so.

I would still vote for the strike unless they are willing to recognize nation wide union with fare dealing among every single base.

[aer lingus]

Wait till xmas is over.:=

[aileron]

It’s a ruse.

Strike averted. Nothings been signed. Delaying tactics or change of tact coming.

Notwithstanding my best wishes to Ryanair staff, too long in this business to start celebrating.

[Fergus Kavanagh]

No mention of this on the Beeb News website.
Is this really odd, or am I just being paranoid?

[RAT 5]

If this is a cosmic shift in RYR internal behaviour what chances that MOL will stick around? What role has PB had in this and might he and others suggest it's time for a change of the old-guard? M.Thatcher's departure comes to mind. You did what was necessary, but don't over stay your welcome beyond your best used by date.
Take your golden parachute and find some other swamp to swim in and clean up.

[Sonikt]

I think the devil is in the detail.....won't talk to other pilots unions ie the Ryanair works councils will now be called unions.

The carrier said it would recognise unions "as the representative body for pilots in Ryanair in each of these countries, as long as they establish committees of Ryanair pilots to deal with Ryanair issues

Bingo

ERC under another another name. This is absolutely about (trying) to maintain coercive control.

The key point here is RYA wants 'union' representatives over which they have influence - i.e. employees of RYA.

Unions should have no part in legitimatizing this scam, and do everything possible (media etc) to highlight why it is a scam

A good alternative would be for unions to put forward reps who are not employees of ANY airline (perhaps some recently retired pilots could help here?) because this kicks away the 'competitor airlines' argument.

Regardless, this move is still a major concession by RYA - effectively they have agreed, without much fight, to change representation from base level to country level. No doubt this has been offered to try to prevent company wide representation via EERC.

They are on the back foot, so keep pushing!

[a350pilots]

Well deserved fellow pilots, now the good work has to continue! It can be the start of a success story fighting for improving pilot conditions in Europe. I thought I would never see this in my career. Unity is the key!

[Sonikt]

Share price down 7% the shareholders don’t like the fact that conditions may start to improve for staff. Greed.....

The markets don't get it yet, but they sure will, give it time.

Due to the 'boomer bulge' we are fast moving into an era of tightening (skilled) labor supply, one in which adversarial IR will come to be seen as a liability; and positive, proactive IR will be seen as a competitive advantage.

Contrast the current FR situation with EZ

EZ have swiftly picked up large numbers of top quality staff from MON, AB. This is a win-win - the hires are grateful to get a fair offer from a (relatively) respectable employer, and the company gets fast expansion while saving on recruitment & training costs.

[rotorwills]

Having been there some years ago I must say that unless things change drastically since then, I would be most careful until the unions get some meetings with management. Just call me a cynic, but would not trust them as far as I can throw them. Not that strong either.

Merry Christmas to all fellow comrades with joysticks. Lol. Hope Santa delivers better t&c for all.

[IRRenewal]

No mention of this on the Beeb News website.
Is this really odd, or am I just being paranoid?

Ryanair in union offer to avoid Christmas strikes - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42364502)

[Toruk Macto]

Good news . Sets an example to others that it can be done .

[nosmo king]

It's very good news for all of us, however think I'd want to see the ink dry on the union recognition agreement before calling off the industrial action.

[jonesyinthesky]

RYR did very well out of MON and Air Berlin, 25+ MON pilots and 40 odd Air Berlin which is more than EZY have got across the line, they have had to put on extra training courses and increase SIM capacity to cope with the large numbers!

[RHINO]

and one wonders why they need so many this side of Xmas......

[RAT 5]

RYR share price down 7% Contrast the current FR situation with EZ


What might be curious is that ez shares took quite a bump this week, perhaps on the Brexit progress, their AB deal and their apparent success with setting up an OE AOC. Plus their expansion plans and the troubles in RYR. Yet in the past coupe of days ez have slipped back. One would have thought, if ez is succeeding, beneath the scenes, and their main rival is in troubled waters, that ez could be forecast to pick up a lot of disgruntled pax. Remember RYR have already said they will ground ore a/c than originally planned and so less supply in the market.

[highflyer40]

I hope it all works out, but seriously, deep down do you really feel this is a serious offer by MOL?

Delay the talks until after X-Mas, massive recruitment drive and then he will get rid of the ones who threatened to strike... this is the most likely outcome.

Hope I’m wrong though!

[PigeonVoyageur]

MOL is an astute person and he is where he is at the top due to his ability to bargain and to turn things to his advantage.

This "recognition" is a ploy since there are conditions attached in it. What MOL is trying to do is to stun his adversaries with this genius - I'll call it - a stroke since it will lull his opponents in thinking that he has given way and make them think that he's more amenable to "talk".

The worst thing that the pilots can do now is to say "yes, great, we'll talk and we give you the benefit of doubt and think that you are genuine, and we'll postpone the strike". MOL has already averted one in Italy. He'll come with other ploys up to the 20th, and when Xmas is over, he'll start to use delaying tactics to try to get things his own way.

The pressure must be kept and MOL must recognise the countries' unions and the EERC without any conditions. A union can have people from various companies as their members and he can't discriminate by saying that he wants such and such a person in the union.

What he's trying to do - as somebody mentioned in a previous post - is trying to have the control of "this union that RYR will recognise" and that this is just a disguised country ERC.

The only solution to call the strikes off, is for RYR to UNCONDITIONNALLY recognise the unions and the EERC IMMEDIATELY by signing whatever needs to be signed - unions lawyers know what is required to make things legally binding.

[J.O.]

I suspect there might have been a few major share-holders making whispers. Perhaps other outside agencies as well. Or do people believe this was a real 'Road to Damascus' moment?

I don't believe for a second that MO'L made this call on his own. This announcement has a board of directors' boot prints stamped all over it. It's likely his backside has a couple of boot prints on it as well.

[Sonikt]

RYR did very well out of MON and Air Berlin, 25+ MON pilots and 40 odd Air Berlin which is more than EZY have got across the line, they have had to put on extra training courses and increase SIM capacity to cope with the large numbers!

Perspective... EZ are taking 1000 staff from AB alone...albeit not all will be pilots but will certainly be several times the numbers going to FR

FR seem to be on boarding much faster but what does this tell us about FR?

[Fergus Kavanagh]

Ryanair in union offer to avoid Christmas strikes - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42364502)

Thanks. I eventually found it under some files in the local planning office on Alpha Centauri.

Check out RTE news for the latest;

Ryanair has told pilot unions it cannot meet their representatives before Wednesday, the day when strikes are scheduled in Ireland and Portugal.
According to union sources, Wednesday's stoppage will not be called off without an initial meeting with Ryanair management taking place.
Sources said the pilots had written to Ryanair after the airline's unprecedented announcement this morning that it was prepared to recognise unions for the first time in its 32-year history in a bid to avert next Wednesday' strike.
In the letter, Impact said it was prepared to meet the company at any time, and preferably today.
However, it is understood that Ryanair management told Impact that it could not schedule a first engagement before Wednesday.
Pilot sources accused the airline of "playing chicken", and warned that the strikes will not be called off without an initial meeting taking place.
In a statement, Ryanair said Impact promised to call off the strike if Ryanair conceded recognition, adding "they've gotten our offer of recognition in writing."
The airline say "the sensible course of action" is for the meeting to take place next Wednesday and for the strike to be called off.


Cute as a box of foxes.

[Alpine Flyer]

It's not up to MOL to choose whom he talks to. His pilots choose a union and union reps for him to talk to. He can either talk or not talk and take the consequences. Whether the reps the union sends fly for Ryanair or some other company or are employees of a union (as chief industrial coordinators in VC usually are) is not really his choice or business. That's all just talk to try to portray the union as a plot by other companies to destroy Ryanair.

Unions need to coordinate their talks as he might try to continue trying to divide and conquer during negotiations.

With MOL I wouldn't even rule out asking for RYR employed negotiators to come to the table just to fire them once he has names....

Let's keep our fingers crossed for this to work out and support our RYR brethren in any way we can to raise industry standards for employment.

[fireflybob]

First of all good luck to the pilots - I'm with you all the way.

Leopards do not change their spots and I suspect nothing will change till MOL departs.

As Reagan once famously said about the Russians "Trust but verify"!

[Avenger]

Its a step in the right direction and congratulations to former colleagues. One important issue is that the " unions" work in harmony, if different country reps start demanding "local terms" the process will fail, and justifiably so. Unionisation is meant to improve the communication and conditions for the majority not the minority. The value of "other company union reps" is questionable, its your train set and you need to avoid the traditional left wing issues that have been obstacles to progress that are often ingrained in old union practice, its a new dawn, treat it as such and the chances of success are improved. In short, goodwill on both sides!

[wisecaptain]

If RYR pilots achieve Union recognition and enter structured negotiations with RYR it will be a momentous achievement.
All those RYR pilots who had no faith and rushed to sign the pay offer recently to get their hands on a cheap trick...........you should all be humbled , perhaps even a tad ashamed...........the least you could do now is sign up to a union membership and get with the progeamme.
Alas perhaps offer up your ill gotten gains the from the last couple of months to help fund your union ?

[vikingivesterled]

The pilots wanted professional advisors present in their negotiations with management and that they got, as long as those advisers at the table are not currently employed by another airline. Fully understandable since no mgmt want to discuss internal terms with the employees of the competitor. It doesn't say they can't be ex employees, independent advisors or full time employees of a union.

Secondly they wanted to negotiate as a whole pilot body. By negotiating on country basis they are part way there, and again they can use the independent advisors to be present at all the different country negotiations, to create a unified solution.
And the potential risk of firing to they who step forward as union members at the negotiations, can be answered by a united front and further actions, since anything on paper offfer little protection and could easily be bypassed by they who like to delay things through the legal system.

The delay in the start of meetings could be because mgmt want to get in some advisors of their own, since there is little sign of them having any experience of actually negotiating with a proffesional union. Or maybe put together a new negotiating team altogether, without so much historical mediapublished baggage.

[Can737]

https://www.rte.ie/amp/927837/?__twitter_impression=true

[skymonkey1]

not sure i follow this strategy. if Ryanair has offered the pilot unions talks on recognition (at last) to avert strike action. No one knows where these talks will lead yet and clearly it could be the airline simply buying a few weeks time. However, in this time surely the unions will grow stronger now that the momentum is with the pilots. carrying out strike action until a meeting seems odd. No employer is accept a huge list of demands before talks begin. if Ryanair have completely betrayed their pilots on recognition talks, they will realise any action next will be a lot more widespread.

[McBruce]

No one trusts them at the moment and I think the unions are right to proceed in this manner. I mean its only an important matter that can potentially ground a lot your aircraft.... ulterior motive?

[Fladbrokeandbusted]

One would be a fool of monumental dimensions to believe this RYR mob. They Will try to screw you over, play you and Lie as history has shown again and again. They WILL NOT come around WITHOUT a show of force. Stay focused and Carry out strikes and hit them hard as planned until a deal is actually signed. If they dont have time to meet NOW, this is not important enough for them. Maybe a show of force Will make them come to table faster.

[Can737]

The management is finally "offering" to meet on Tuesday.


https://amp.independent.ie/business/irish/ryanair-offers-to-meet-with-union-ahead-of-strike-action-36413921.html?__twitter_impression=true

[alserire]

It's actually death by a thousand self inflicted cuts for FR the way they're doing things. The not recognising unions game is up but they just cannot bring themselves to admit it.

It's a PR disaster!

[zerograv]

Looks like MOL just wants to gain time.
Stay focused ! Don't let your guard down ! Hold your ground firmly !
One more "small" detail. In this era of Android and Whatsup, it is wise to assume he is well aware of all your plans and intentions. :suspect:

[Rated De]

When assessing the enemy consider this:



They may not count what you think is important
Make sure the target of your actions shows up in their excel spread sheet.



Mr O'Leary will face sustained revenue pressure, this affects cash flow.
Shareholders start to worry when it impacts...

[hoelie]

Hope the negotiators not only think of there own wallet but also represent the joining cadets e.g. getting them some basic pay during training.

[slack]

mol is the most disgusting individual EVER involved in aviation. As mentioned don't trust him any further than you could throw him even though he is a bit of a little prick. Does he ever have his glasses on his eyes or does he have another set on top of his head.:rolleyes:

[skyloone]

Spoke to a mate who’s UK based. Seems MOL is playing a bit of a game. On Friday FR had a conference call with base captains. Shortly afterwards his BC was on the phone in not too desperate tones imploring pilots to sign latest offer. This offer includes a clause that ties them into a five year deal and agrees to abide by Ryanair’s version of ERC negotiation and specifically excludes unions. So if you want a union negotiated deal, wait five years. Base captains claiming Ryanair won’t enforce this clause but unlikely to remove..... mmmm.. Initial impressions are the Leopard isn’t looking to change his spots?

[Can737]

This would explain why he is pushing to the latest possible the meetings with unions.

[ICEHOUSES]

MOL is taking the pi*s out of you guys.

[RobsonCanolo]

Remember the guys starting the first McDonalds restaurant and how that one went down in the end for them despite what was said. Also knowing the thirty year history of union busting in contrast to the latest apparent change in stance it must be better placing all bets and action going forward on the known past rather then the latest which still remains to be seen if it’s genuine or not...

[EIFFS]

I think that it’s fair to say some unions have been their ( members) own worst enemy, the miners union is one and Southern rail through ASLEF & the RMT, these unions have been hijacked by people with a poltical agenda, BALPA seems far more pragmatic and reflects the difference between representing employees in the private sector ( where in the UK at least) government bailouts are rare.

Unions seek to improve the lot of employees, that tends to cost money and that is why MoL and his investors don’t want to go there.

Unions hard won deals to protect employees rights in redundancy probably killed of any chance of a rescue of Monarch and bmibaby before them, it’s just to complicated or rather it’s easier to start a fresh than merge seniority, t&c’s let alone pension liabilities

MoL has invested huge amounts of time and money to avoid union recognition, he has no problem with unions provided they’re his unions, why does he say he will only deal with unions that are represented by FR employees? it’s is implied that that he can then apply pressure on individuals and here you have to look at their track record.

I would recommend you keep an open mind, but keep your eyes even more so ditto your ears, it will like end in one of two ways

1) a pet union thrown a few cheap crumbs that cost Ryanair little, maybe even save a few bob given the creativity shown in the past ( remember the 50p wheelchair levy on all passengers)

2) individual base shut downs in the way that they dealt with union demands in CPH yet they continue to operate flight to/from there! oh I see you’re active on the union front off to Gdańsk or Marrakesh for you and congratulations on the birth of your new daughter BTW

Good luck with all this the industry supports you but we know your up against a nasty piece of work.

[PAXboy]

This thread will shortly go to another forum but I thought the earthquake was worth reporting. Yes, it may not mean what it meant in the past but it IS a change.
Ryanair has recognised unions. Hell must have frozen over

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/18/ryanair-recognised-hell-frozen-unions-airline

[justanotherflyer]

At the same time, there seems to have been some frank talking. "New operations boss admits staff are miserable", unless the re-hired operations chief is speaking seriously off-hymn sheet.

Could the iceberg of indifference be thawing, just a bit? A $5bn drop in market capitalisation over two weeks might prompt investors to think the CalPers fund's call to sack the entire management team isn't such an outlandish idea.

[alserire]

Not a word from M O'L. Methinks he's being sidelined.

Black and white doesn't work in the world of business. Money talks.

[Skyhigh86]

errrrrr it was miserable when PB was there previously....

[ExDubai]

German Ryanair pilots will strike Friday 22nd. from 05:01 - 08:59 AM

[Steve6443]

Typical of RyanAir - first of all (according to the German Union VC) RyanAir rejected two of the five members of the VC negotiating team, thus infringing the autonomy of the Union to select it's representatives; at the same time, RyanAir is claiming to want to talk with the pilots on the 5th of January, presenting themselves as the victims of the reckless and unwarranted actions of the unions....

[ExDubai]

Yepp, don't know why impact doesn't join...
And news from Italy, Portugal and Spain?

[RHINO]

It strikes me that Ryanair's problems are much deeper than a shortage of flight deck. Having read a comprehensive analysis with timeline of this years events by Bloomberg they are going to be running flat out for some time to get back on track. MOL admitted he took the eye off the ball with Pilot salaries. Behind all the pronouncements that his pilots now get paid 20% more than others a quick look around will show that they are marginally below what would be considered average. No wonder the new chap has stated number 1 thing is to stop people leaving. Here they have a problem because what is left is not the 'talent' the business needs going forward. In fact my guess is one of the fundamental problems is that the Base Pilot managers are not much cop. Those with any drive, initiative, can do spirit have long since departed the fix.

Sound leadership will be required at all levels, not just in the head shed.

I also wonder how much 'talent' has left from other departments over the last 12 months. It will be interesting to see if they bring in folk from outside at lower levels to try and improve things or certainly give the perception of 'making an effort'.

Not surprised a strike is still going ahead......

[Admiral346]

Tomorrow Ryan Air Pilots are going on a 4 hour strike in Germany.
For the very first time in the history of the airline.

Go, guys and gals, go!

You have my support, get some change going in your company.

[Alloy]

I’m normally not for supporting strikes but in this case I wish the German strikers all the best. Good for you for making a stand.

[172_driver]

Will be interesting to see how many flights get in the air. Ryanair is advising passengers to show up as normal.

[Avenger]

The "strike" is just 4 hours, which actually represents a delay due to "extraordinary circumstances " so it will be interesting to see if the pax get any compensation. Although the strike times are pretty early and the impact will be marginal ... lets see!

[VJW]

Marginal? Are you sure you know what you’re talking about?

That’s the whole first wave of flights, followed by the return legs and any other subsequent flights that crew member was due to do during their duty.

[EcamSurprise]

All FR flights in Berlin seem to have departed..

[RHINO]

If all the German flights have departed as scheduled then if Ryanair are smart they won't say boo...

[Sober Lark]

Must have been an amusing sight to see Ryanair towels draped over the aircraft this morning.

In view of progress, no one in their right mind will say boo

[speed_alive_rotate]

Just want to make sure I am grasping this correctly - during a live strike of German Ryanair pilots , other Ryanair pilots and aircraft arrived in to operate at a base during a strike?
Or am I off the mark - genuine question.

[F-16GUY]

Stick together boys or you will all loose...

[speed_alive_rotate]

I would like to think it was "management pilots" operating those aircraft this morning. Otherwise Ryanair's divide and conquer is as strong as always. It is the same as your fellow workers walking by you on the picket line!!!

[Mizar]

Sorry but from FR 24 it seems there is no delays at all from main ryr german bases?

[speed_alive_rotate]

I sure hope the unions from Portugal , Ireland etc are watching how this has been dealt with.

[Skipname]

The even bigger question is, did the pilots from the German bases actually strike or they are all talk and no action?

[november.sierra]

According to the VC twitter account, they did go on strike, but a lot of the flights left on time, crewed by contractors and people from other bases.

Before you all start shouting scabs, remember one thing: in most countries in Europe sympathy strikes are unlawful, and as such, if you're called in to work for strikebreaking purposes in another country, you have no choice but to go to work. Refusing to work will most certainly land you in hot water with the employer, and will also compromise the unions who will most likely be facing a courtcase for inciting unlawful industrial action!

Make sure you know the facts before accusing anyone for 'crossing the picket line'!

[nopilot]

Have in mind the strike was only for 4 hours, so no cancellations could be expected anyway, only delays.

According to FR statement on their website 9 out of 36 departures In Germany this morning have been delayed and that they are happy Ryanair pilots did not follow the call for strike of the "Lufthansa (VC) pilots Union".

What I could see is, that 3 of 5 flights out of each Hahn and Weeze had significant delays until after 9 am, one in Cologne, one in Berlin and one in Karlsruhe/Baden. Frankfurt seemed not to be affected.

According to German press and on their website, VC states they are happy with the outcome. They say the vast majority of the pilots employed by Ryanair that were called to strike were striking and almost half of the flights that could be affected by the strike had significant delays. The flights that operated normally were operated by contractors, who were not called to strike. In Frankfurt they state, most of the pilots are still in probation, so could not strike without risking losing their jobs. They say their plan was not to cause major disruptions short before Christmas but to show Ryanair that they can mobilize employed pilots of Ryanair, which they say was succesful.

[MaverickPrime]

If most of those flights got off the ground today then Ryanair have seized the initiative away from the pilots. Management will have seen just how loose the unity is today, I wouldn’t be surprised if they take a harder line over the coming weeks when it comes to negotiations.

[speed_alive_rotate]

I take your point on board november.sierra. Thrust me I was not shouting scabs- just trying to understand what was happening.

Maybe this is all the more reason for simultaneous striking across a number of bases as was the original plan. I hope the different unions representing each country are in close contact. Must stay united.

Total agreement with MaverickPrime point above.

[RHINO]

I wouldn't read to much into this. Ryanair still need to recruit a multitude of people and the slightest hint that they are back to their old ways will cause those still there to see red.... Remember that this has been driven from within and not by Donald Trump, the BBC, PPRUNE, or any other kooky organisation/person you can think of.

It should be obvious that the various pilot/cabin crew representative groups are talking to each other. They know that they have to act with unity. In this situation they will be waiting on Ryanair's response or lack of to decide their next course of action.

If Ryanair are serious about sorting things for the next ten - twenty years they will keep stum..

[MaverickPrime]

I sincerely hope you are right RHINO.

[Avenger]

Sadly VJW I do know what I'm talking about.. keep your enemies close and your friends even closer! MOL is a slippery creature and the only way this campaign can succeed is with coordinated multi base action. If your sudden roster change has you working from another base and it stinks then it's probably a management rear guard ploy. Best of luck to former colleagues

[Cmon-PullUP]

If one is called to do flights in another country where colleagues are on strike, then by law you cannot refuse.

You can however develop a fever that will prevent you from going to work!

[RAT 5]

If one is called to do flights in another country where colleagues are on strike, then by law you cannot refuse.

Under which law do the 'self-employed' contractors work? A friend of mine, who is one, was once confused, and wondered what he might have to do if necessary, because his agency contract said it was subject to English law, where the agency is based, but his Ltd. company is based in Ireland. In this cross border matter where would a contractor stand?

[FlightDetent]

I'm not sure (though I heard so) it's the case for RY pilots, but there are other means of obtaining submission.

Typically the agreed worked conditions are substantially better than those in contract. And should you apply work-to-rule, the company plays the same card. Thus 5 on 4 off turns into 6 on 2 off; 9 days off/month turn to 7, Yearly HOL award changes from 35 to 20, "available days" change to STBY and similar.

[ELondonPax]

Rat5. If one was genuinely self employed, one can choose which parcels of work to accept or decline. This is one of the core tests that HMRC apply in the UK. So, if your pal is "genuinely self employed" then he/she can just say ''no thanks'. But this isn't genuine self employment is it?
Having been through a HMRC inspection (different industry) it's not something to look forward to. I was playing according to the rule, but the inspection is so tedious and time consuming. HMRC have sweeping powers, you do not want to be on the wrong side of them. Your friend would be wise to get out of that arrangement, just storing up angst if HMRC decide to inspect.

[IRRenewal]

This is what BALPA told their UK members regarding strikes in other countries:

CAN WE JOIN THE OTHERS STRIKE?

Not lawfully, no. Any UK Ryanair pilot that takes part in another country’s strike in any way would be in breach of their contract of employment and liable to dismissal.


WHAT ABOUT IF RYANAIR ASKS US TO DO THE WORK OF STRIKING PILOTS?

The natural reaction is to support colleagues of course. However, to avoid potential dismissal for breach of contract, UK Ryanair pilots should continue to work in accordance with their contracts. This means that Ryanair can ask UK pilots to cover for striking pilots and a refusal could result in dismissal. It is important that pilots are not inadvertently caught out as a result of a wish to try and support their colleagues in other countries.


IS IT DIFFERENT FOR CONTRACT PILOTS?

BALPAs understanding is that IALPA has not included contractor pilots in its ballot so they will presumably be working as normal. Here, in the UK, contractor pilots should also work as normal in accordance with their contract.

[RHINO]

BALPA playing the long game.....which is exactly what I would expect.

[SMT Member]

I suppose this action from the German pilots has blown a fair bit of wind in the sails of the Irish midget, in so far they've learned that if they can keep any industrial action isolated to a single base at a time, or even a couple of bases perhaps, they can largely cover the holes utilising crew from other bases. And since intended strike action will be declared days in advance, there's plenty of time to position stand-by crew.

What the EEAC have undoubtedly also learned, is that they need to be united over all organised bases in order to make any action felt, and to carry any action out simultaneously across those bases.

EU rules does not allow for sympathy strikes across borders, only domestically; the only way to instigate action across borders, is by coordinating the bases. I'd like to see MoL's face if that happens.

[gearlever]

Calling VC a "Lufthansa Union" is typical MoL BS.

Since decades VC is representing pilots of Lufthansa's competitors.

[BluSdUp]

Ryanair has recognized unions!

One union has had a 4 hr strike!

This is monumental.

Anyone pilot suggesting this a few years ago would be given a Loss of Licence due to obvious severe mental illness.

Times are indeed changing!

[RAT 5]

Ryanair has recognized unions!

Have there been any talks between the 2 or more parties? And does anyone know what was concluded? There seems to have been lots of posturing, but was there any discussing?

[733driver]

No recognition agreements signed. Not even close. So no, Ryanair haven't recognized unions.

[Cmon-PullUP]

You can still - always - call in sick if asked to cover for striking colleagues.

Anything else is plain stupid.

[fox niner]

Wait, hold on just a moment....So in the United Kingdom, you can actually be forced to do the work of striking employees? And the union (BALPA) regrettably has to inform its members that this is indeed the sorry state of affairs?
What kind of third world country is this?

[marchino61]

Rat5. If one was genuinely self employed, one can choose which parcels of work to accept or decline. This is one of the core tests that HMRC apply in the UK. So, if your pal is "genuinely self employed" then he/she can just say ''no thanks'. But this isn't genuine self employment is it?


That depends what your contract says. I have signed contracts saying I must put in 40 hours per week, 9-5 Monday to Friday. If I don't I have to provide a substitute. No scope for not turning up there.

[marchino61]

Wait, hold on just a moment....So in the United Kingdom, you can actually be forced to do the work of striking employees? And the union (BALPA) regrettably has to inform its members that this is indeed the sorry state of affairs?
What kind of third world country is this?

No you can't - if they work in the same company and country as you. But there is no EU-wide law on strikes, as far as I know, so you can't refuse to cover for striking workers in another country.

[Boeing 7E7]

But you can feel unwell that day. And that is what Ryanair Pilots must do, if they are to achieve anything meaningful.

[Rated De]

Various western countries have removed much of the ability to withdraw labour. Further efforts have been made to alleviate the ability of labour to stop an industry, both directly and through supply chain and logistics (ie a supplier fails to deliver products to support striking workers elsewhere)

Is it any wonder that GDP per capita has fallen? The game is rigged!

Balance is needed, the problem business has is that although rigged, there was a fatal flaw in the model: They relied on over supply of pilots....:ok:

[Boeing 7E7]

The over supply of pilots will come again before you know it. It has always been this way and any complacency is unjustified. Ryanair Pilots must act now and in unsison before this opportunity is gone. By doing so they improve their contracts and the contracts that they may get in the future with another airline - as Ryanair has become the bench mark.

[gearlever]

German prosecuting attorney is sueing two Ryanair contractors (five Brits).

Ryanair: Staatsanwaltschaft Koblenz erhebt Anklage im Fall selbstständiger Piloten - SPIEGEL ONLINE (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/ryanair-staatsanwaltschaft-koblenz-erhebt-anklage-im-fall-selbststaendiger-piloten-a-1185341.html)

[172_driver]

Two contractors, of which five are Brits?

Ryanair did the math themselves?

[ExDubai]

2 Contracting companies, 5 "Directors"
Brookfield and ?

[gearlever]

ExDubai, I wasn't accurate on that.

[ExDubai]

Interesting statement from the public prosecution. They are still investigating against current and ex Ryanair Managers.

[speedrestriction]

http://https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1229/930065-ryanair-pilots-social-security/ (https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1229/930065-ryanair-pilots-social-security/)

[gearlever]

RTE:

the prosecution service in the western city of Koblenz said.Unification of East and West Germany was 1990....:*

[733driver]

Yes, and Koblenz is still in the west just like Hamburg is in the north, Munich in the south and Dresden in the east....

[alserire]

RTE:

Unification of East and West Germany was 1990....:*

Good lord :ugh:

[BluSdUp]

Lets get back to the basics Boys!
How many aircraft does RYR have to ground this summer IF they do NOT solve this problem ASAP.
I am thinking 10 to 20 percent!!
So out of ca 400 active ac that is 40 to 80 aircraft with routes to fly, but NO CREW.

There is a lot going on , but it is to little to late.

Titanic comes to mind!
The Worlds largest Liner it said on the poster!
Also with a Great Skipper.

[RHINO]

that is the 64 million euro question! They cannot afford another mass cancellation of flights next summer.......will they park early or chance their arm.

These crew shortages normally take 12 months to sort out......

[semmern]

So..this has all blown over?

[Monstersinc1]

Nope! The diversionary tactics with the talk of unions doesn't see to have stemmed the flow of resignations! I hear 36 just this month so far! (It's only 10 days!!) Over 200 from end of Oct to December......mostly captains and command ready FOs..... So not looking great!

Nothing has really changed, the whole Union thing is for the press and the paying public, behind the scenes the same old carry on.

The problem is see is that with the experienced guys leaving, it leaves only the latest cadets to take the helm, and to be honest I wouldn't want them taking it!!

There are guys who initially failed the assessment now out there flying.....desperation!

But it's Ok, on Ryanair.com they brag that they recruited a 1000 pilots.....lol.

[GScapture]

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/italian-unions-call-strikes-over-ryanair-negotiating-position-1.3351995?mode=amp

Summer must be interesting :hmm:

[framer]

I guess that’s the price of setting up crew bases in so many different cities/ countries. There are advantages of course. Some Airlines choose not to do it as they think the cost outweighs the benefit.

[skyloone]

From a smaller base I hear that the roster is supposedly covered but they’re phoning Crew to work days off. My friends base still operating without standby cover for both seats on the odd day. Captains operating right seat sometimes. All can’t be well? He reckons summer could be messy. Best MOL pulls a rabbit out the hat soon!

[gearlever]

Captains operating right seat sometimes.

Is this legal for NON TRI/TRE CPTs ?

[skyloone]

Apparently line Captains do a right seat check and can operate as PM and also fly the approaches for Monitored cat 1& Cat 3 purposes with standard SOP’s having left seat always taking control off these to complete landing and rollout. Cannot take off or land.

[172_driver]

Is this legal for NON TRI/TRE CPTs ?

Normal practice where I work (not RYR, not to confuse..) without any restrictions. Not saying they’re particularly good at it. When the aircraft approaches they gate still in landing configuration, you know how many stripes occupy the right seat :}

[ExDubai]

It will only work of the unions start "joint actions".

[gearlever]

Normal practice where I work (not RYR, not to confuse..) without any restrictions. Not saying they’re particularly good at it. When the aircraft approaches they gate still in landing configuration, you know how many stripes occupy the right seat :}

https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-282483.html

[Vokes55]

From a smaller base I hear that the roster is supposedly covered but they’re phoning Crew to work days off. My friends base still operating without standby cover for both seats on the odd day. Captains operating right seat sometimes. All can’t be well? He reckons summer could be messy. Best MOL pulls a rabbit out the hat soon!

Summer was 'messy' when I was there two years ago. Looks like normal service has been resumed, MOL has conned everybody into believing they're going to get union recognition, and everybody bends over again.

Glad I moved to a proper airline.

[Lazydogg]

So there is no company council being formed in the UK?

There hasn’t been two meetings with BALPA including one last Week?

Jesus..... put a sock in it.

What did you do when you were here VOKES? Did you contribute anything towards improving things? Hmmm that’s right you just paid for your rating got your hours and bailed out. I’m glad I’m not the Captain listening to a pompous sciolist who is now at a “proper airline”.

I was offered a job at TOM 5 years ago too. Financially speaking I’m glad I didn’t go comparing the salary I’m on now by comparison to what I would be on in TOM in the RHS. Horses for courses. A good few pals of mine joined and they are all modest, decent, and well informed individuals. You appear to be anything but...

Grow up.

[BluSdUp]

Indeed
How I love listening to these guys that had to pay to get a job!

I have words for it , but my posting would instantly be taken down.

Anyway!
There is progress.

Due to the Unions, AND the fact that pilots are leaving every day.

[Vokes55]

So there is no company council being formed in the UK?

There hasn’t been two meetings with BALPA including one last Week?

Congratulations, finally achieving what is normal in just about every other company.

I’m glad I’m not the Captain listening to a pompous sciolist who is now at a “proper airline”.

I'm glad you're not either. Anybody who lists their profession on an internet forum as "737 Captain" and then has to list their location as "LHS 737", just in case somebody didn't notice that you're a captain, is somebody I'm likely to have nothing in common with. You're probably one of those who wears their uniform into Sainsburys on their days off too. Are you a captain by the way?

Genuinely glad to hear there's progress, the whole industry's T&C's are relying on it. What did I do? Well what I did was, along with everybody else, contributed to the issue that brought attention the pilot shortage in the first place. I left. If nobody did that, you wouldn't have a hope in hell of union recognition. You're welcome.

Cheers for the nibble, Captain.

[Callsign Kilo]

Anybody who lists their profession on an internet forum as "737 Captain" and then has to list their location as "LHS 737", just in case somebody didn't notice that you're a captain, is somebody I'm likely to have nothing in common with.

Hahaha, Brilliant. It's true. How do you know somebody is a pilot? They'll tell you. They'll also tell you they have something fancy in the driveway, they live in a country retreat, have a boat, holiday 4 times a year and that their kids are in private school. Probably wears a Ralph Lauren shirt, chinos and deck shoes and has the latest Apple tech. Boring. Yawn. Next stereotype please.

[Lazydogg]

Congratulations, finally achieving what is normal in just about every other company.



I'm glad you're not either. Anybody who lists their profession on an internet forum as "737 Captain" and then has to list their location as "LHS 737", just in case somebody didn't notice that you're a captain, is somebody I'm likely to have nothing in common with. You're probably one of those who wears their uniform into Sainsburys on their days off too. Are you a captain by the way?

Genuinely glad to hear there's progress, the whole industry's T&C's are relying on it. What did I do? Well what I did was, along with everybody else, contributed to the issue that brought attention the pilot shortage in the first place. I left. If nobody did that, you wouldn't have a hope in hell of union recognition. You're welcome.

Cheers for the nibble, Captain.

Along with everybody else ? No some stayed actually. People have been leaving for years and good luck to them. But some stayed and fought. Your contribution was zero. You joined as a snotty nosed cadet that most probably wasn’t even shaving yet and then you left. Thank you so so much VOKES. You are absolutely right we would have nothing in common.

I’m off for the weekly shop now so I need to get my uniform ready.

[Vokes55]

But some stayed and fought.

No they didn't. When I was there, nobody 'fought' for anything. Working days off for no additional payment, accepting standby callouts to position to other bases and pay for their own hotels at short (and expensive) notice, taking the bare minimum fuel and turning the APU off in 30+ celcius, accepting that they're so disrespected by management that not being provided with water in the work place is some kind of norm, accepting that they have to pay for everything - including the uniform you're required to work in, working behind dodgy contractor deals under the benefit of paying little tax, accepting that the company can change their duty without block window protection even if you have plans for after your duty, worrying when returning to base that the company will tell you to do another two sectors, accepting that turning the seat belt signs on to use the toilet is normal, accepting that if you're delayed you still have to pay for inedible food from the bar, accepting the abuse of your cabin crew colleagues - most of whom nowadays can barely speak a word of English, accepting being moved to Fez to do your command upgrade ("I'm not worried, it's only a year and then I'll definitely be back in Stansted"). But don't worry, Ryanair kindly provide you with a 5/4 roster, so it's ok to accept everything else.

Nobody fought for anything until too many people left and the media caught on. Then suddenly one or two grew a backbone. Although you make out to be a popular fella (similar to your obsession with telling everyone you're a captain, you also like to mention all the companies you apparently have friends), I also still know plenty of people in Ryanair - and they don't tow the company line like you, they're well aware that very little is changing, and most would leave if they could get a DEC job in their home base. I've never worked in such a spineless work environment, and believe me I've had some awful jobs.

But don't let that detract you from making personal attacks against somebody you don't know on an internet forum. Mr Captain Popular appears to have a complex :ok:

[GScapture]

Alright guys calm down.. pilots are already blaming each others enough. One shouldn’t blame anyone what she or he has done in the past. Everyone has their reasons.

I second Vokes what he wrote in the previous post. I didn’t study for this profession to be treated as I was treated in Ryanair. For me it wasn’t a job, I took it as part of my flight training. I paid them money and they taught me to fly, simple. Left as soon as I could when the appropriate opportunity came up.

Anyone, who claims that Ryanair model to hire and use pilots is acceptable and fair has completely lost it. That was the main reason why I left. The unfair, toxic and punitive culture in the company made me hate them. Which I still do, occasionally, but I’m trying to change it now to being hopeful instead. Haven’t been there for years so can’t really say anything anymore about the current operations.

Two best decisions I’ve made during my career; Joining Ryanair and leaving Ryanair. Life is good now :ok:

(Oh and stop that rant about financial status or career progression, nobody gives a :mad:. Only thing that matters in life is that are you happy or not)

[Lazydogg]

Vokes55

Isn’t it a shock that pilots “apparently” have friends in many other airlines?
I had a nice time in Tescos earlier, I told a few people in the fruit section that I was a Captain because I’m “obsessed” with it. They looked a little perplexed to begin with and one even suggested that I belong in the fruit section. Honestly VOKES I think you should be looking closer to home when it’s comes to the Captain “obsession”.

“One or two” pilots grew a backbone? One or two?

You wouldn’t know the meaning of the word backbone.

You joined on said conditions, you moaned,you did the square root of @&)”£& all about it and then you toddled off to TOM when the opportunity came. You then try to depict that you are whiter than white. You got what you wanted and ran for the hills. Best of luck! The ones that stayed will try to improve things. Hopefully the latent effects of that will be your T & Cs will improve in the long run. If you think you “contributed” and that makes you feel warm and fuzzy then fair enough. Fill your boots.

Captain popular doesn’t have the complex vokes. It’s you isn’t it?

[repulo]

Can you guys please stop your personal war and free this thread again for its basic purpose of informing the pilot community about the progress within RYR?
The developments within that company are way too important for the rest of the industry to be hijacked into this nonsense.

[framer]

accepting that turning the seat belt signs on to use the toilet is normal,
Can anyone elaborate on the above? I don’t understand.

[McBruce]

It was SOP (not sure if its still the case) to put the belts on if you where leaving the FCC.

[Lazydogg]

Can you guys please stop your personal war and free this thread again for its basic purpose of informing the pilot community about the progress within RYR?
The developments within that company are way too important for the rest of the industry to be hijacked into this nonsense.

No problem. Back on thread then.

Management are meeting the Belgium unions tomorrow. They met with SEPLA in Spain this week also.

Follow up meetings with ANPAC in Italy, Vereinigung Cockpit in Germany, and BALPA in the coming weeks.

[MaverickPrime]

I see the new pay figures on ppjn:

Agency capt €165/hr
Ryr contract UK capt £135,000pa
Ryr contract EU capt €155,000pa
Ryr contract EU SFO €7,000/mth
Cadet €3,000/mth

[eduelp]

Hahahaha, management in that airline are more desperate everyday... I invite FR pilots in this forum to send an update with the real payscales that I'm pretty sure will differ... (at least mine was nowhere near those figures)

[Mikehotel152]

Of course your pay wasn't. Those figures are remuneration from this month.

[aerodestination]

That is a huge pay gap between RYR contract and agency for FO's (cadet)... Would be great to see some more improvements for cadets too.

[GScapture]

I guess these figures includes uniform, loss of license, private health care, pension, parking, per diems etc. ? Not to mention food you need to purchase for every working day.

Once you deduct those from the take home pay then you might get close to real figures what people are actually earning.

Then compare it to other airlines packages and notice how “industry leading” it is :hmm:

[Citybird]

Captain Belgian base on Ryanair contract, less than 70k€ net pa. Nothing included (uniform, parking, medical, LOL, airport ID, company ID, food, water, coffee, stapler in crewroom, pen, high viz, phone bills). 1 unwanted month off, 10 ad-hoc days (3 last year, the remainder denied or allocated on rest days off).

[MaverickPrime]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKBN1F71SS

UK based pilots accept pay rises?

[fulminn]

FR captain italy can vary between 120-135K euro gross before tax, 10-20% if LTC or TRI/TRE.
In Italy they pay "outside the payslip" about 29% social insurance to italian pension scheme(forced by the gvnmt back in 2011 I believe)
so if you include this is about 150K euro per year....
but at the end of the month net salary for 100 (>60 sectors if based in south italy)BH is about 7-8k euros net depending how much domestic you did or didn't...:\
with 50 BH per month salary will be about 6k net
It's your job whorty 120 euros net per sectors? NO
taxes are basically double paid in Ireland and Italy on some parts of the payslip.
SFO about 70k euro gross before tax.

[fulminn]

and we are missing food, water, uniform, insurance, positioning paid by the company if you are schedule out of base on ground transport, repsect, dignity and much more...

[SeaBreeze1]

Well not much has changed, with TOMs sophisticated and thorough recruitment, still relieving other companies of their arrogant numpties. How do they do it.

Good job you didn’t get in then, too arrogant? Or too much of a “numpty”?

Your post from the TOM recruitment thread:

Anybody know how many positions where available? Somebody mentioned 30 is that 737 and 757 total or each? I noticed there was very few 737 folks there.

Not heard anything yet about sim dates!

:D

[fireflybob]

The company's more friendly approach to negotiations appears to have coincided with the return of Peter Bellew, late last year. The new chief operating officer was a stalwart of Ryanair, working with the carrier from 2006 to 2015, at which point he left to join Malaysia Airlines.

Ryanair agrees 20pc pay rise for UK pilots in bid to ease tensions (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/01/18/ryanair-agrees-20pc-pay-rise-uk-pilots-bid-ease-tensions/)

[wisecaptain]

I have heard there will be a re-vote for the STN based pilots.
Apparently RYR have attached a 'no further pay negotiation' clause in the acceptance deal which was unknown/not stated to the ERC before this last vote.:=
Now imho that is very underhand indeed.
A very good demonstration of how they cannot be trusted.:(

[RAT 5]

Is that a 20% rise in salary or income?

[Depone]

For left seat it's 33% salary increase, overall 22% income increase.

[Damianik]

No Sir it is not 33% . I am skipper in ryr and my increase would have been 8% . 33% is if you suddenly become new deal TRE from line Cpt in old deal . Usual Ryanair fake news. Balpa said it’s ok to vote because we cannot yet represent you so of course the folks run to company for the pay raise . Like that was the only issue .... but I in no way think this is over . Oh no. Germany Italy and Spain very much on war footing . Ireland is dublin , strong!
Keep listening .

[Depone]

Strange Daminik. You must be the odd one out. Remember we're talking about UK.

Because most line skipper basic salary plus productivity pay goes from £63k to £86k. Sector pay and expenses unchanged. Pension up.

BTW Balpa didn't say that. They are in active negotiations. Perhaps you aren't a Balpa member?

[VJW]

He’s not the odd one out, you’re just one of the many that believe that expenses and pension is something that all airlines quote as part of the salary.

Here’s what I make as a UK captain before any ‘deal’

£62k basic, £6 expenses, £32k sector pay based on 900 hrs (I flew 890 last year) & £6k pension.

That’s £106k roughly speaking and you get NOTHING else on top.

Only in RYR do they need to include £6k expenses and pension figures to get the Captain ‘salary’ over £100k. Expenses isn’t salary- it’s money I spend on my uniform, LOL medicals and Food/drink when I work (I spend £400 a year on bottled water!). That is what other proper airlines give you for free. So £106k is actually £100k.

The new deal has a £10k addition to the basic salary and quite frankly that’s it. Yes there’s a new productivity bonus of £12k, but unlike in EasyJet’s where you get the same simply by being loyal and still being at the company, in RYR you need to work days off to get this additional bonus. Again it’s not too many days off for £12k, but the point is let’s compare like for like. Ones called Loyalty one Productivity.

Finally the pension is now £8k not £6?! Big whop- it’s finally that of what EasyJet pay.

In Ryanair’s eyes that’s a total of 10+12+2 £24k more per year - £106 + 24 equals the £130k we all keep hearing.

Let’s minus pension, bonus and expenses off this this number so we can compare properly. When we do this it becomes £106 -6 -6 = £94k (my current deal) plus £10k for new deal is £104k.

When I join Easy, the BASIC is £105k. Let’s just sit and think on that for a second.

That figure also doesn’t include pension contributions from company, loyalty bonus, personal bonus, all the Lol/uniform/Medical/car park/food/water etc benefits the £6k pays you to sort yourself.

It also doesn’t include SECTOR PAY.

I said no to the new deal twice now even though I’m leaving. Best of luck.

[GScapture]

He’s not the odd one out, you’re just one of the many that believe that expenses and pension is something that all airlines quote as part of the salary.


Spot on. That’s the weird mentality that has creeped in people’s heads during all these years in FR. Expenses, pension, “loyalty bonus” etc. are NOT part of the salary. Yet this “industry leading” company claims that they will be paying as such :hmm:

Came across one FO recently, he’d calculated what his salary would be after all the necessary deductions and the result was that he made 1700€/month net.

What a great company to work for.

[WindSheer]

Bottled water. Do RYR charge you? And is it the on board inflated price?

I am shocked.

[MaverickPrime]

I do believe you have to be in ezy for 10 years to get the highest loyalty bonus?

[VJW]

Comments above re the Loyalty bonus at easy are all correct, I didn’t mention it’s immediate however, just that once you’ve been there over 2 years you start getting it (at the certain %) without having to work extra.

Regarding bottled water. I buy it from the terminal each day. It’s cheaper than buying it on board as we don’t get anything on board for free, other than than the use of the toilet (I lol’d as I typed that!)

RYR has water fountains in each crewroom, but where that water comes from in anyone’s guess.

It is what it is- make of it what you will. Most of what I’ve said in last two posts on this thread are just facts.

[CaptainSensible]

The often mentioned productivity bonus? Is it a one off for the current year in order to mitigate the current pilot shortfall or will it be ongoing subject to the giving up of a few days come the next few years.

[Depone]

The often mentioned productivity bonus? Is it a one off for the current year in order to mitigate the current pilot shortfall or will it be ongoing subject to the giving up of a few days come the next few years.

It is ongoing.

[chemicalal]

Depone, are you the deluded, LTC in STN who has lost all creditibility in recent months?

[Depone]

Instead of being offensive, perhaps you could explain why you say that?

This is the problem with pprune. Because of anonymity, people feel free to aggressively attack anybody who speaks up. Yet, when you speak directly to people in the crewroom or flightdeck, everyone seems to broadly agree.

As I have said, the figures I mentioned are 100% correct for a line Captain. I make no comment on the company generally or its pay structures. I'm simply giving information on the new 'deal' because someone asked.

[Boeing 7E7]

Except that you add the pension contribution from the company into your pay. Nobody else does this as it is not custom and practice any where. Except for Ryanair.

[chemicalal]

I was under the impression that most of us not nearing retirement wanted to have a negotiating agreement in place before considering a new deal...how does your so called 'basic salary' fair when your sick or need to take paternity leave?

[zerotohero]

I might spend £500 a year on actual expenses, so frankly I regard my £6k as a part of my salary. .

How? I used to spend a lot more that that.

Medical £150 minimum
Uniform £50 minimum to replace old shirts and trousers
ID say £20 a year towards it and a new CRB
X4 nights hotel for sim recurrent £260
Car Park £75 a month I think it was
LOL think that was £80ish a month
Then of course water because no way I was putting my flask to the pink lipstick tip of the water fountain that had a green furry seal.
Food was my choice as I preferred M&S ready meals over left over home cooked or dodgy loco airline food even if it was free (which it’s not)

No way you realistically only spend £500 a year of the expenses only on expenses unless you walk to work.

[Crankshaft]

no way I was putting my flask to the pink lipstick tip of the water fountain.

And in fact, those pink stains you see on the tip of the water fountain is actually stains of a bacteria called "serratia marcescens", not lipstick. Google it!

This was reported to Ryanair already in 2012 (shortly before I left). So this is actually still an issue?

[Bayerische]

Bloody hell! just when you thought Ryanair couldn't get any worse.

On the plus side....MOL is a billionaire.

[Damianik]

Just have in front of me the deals for various bases , the company insist for a vote (why would they need a vote so desperately if they say they are recognizing a new way to deal with us and just want us 20% better off??)
My situation would go up 18% total including pension . 8% not including th 33% Pension hike (again pension only if you also hike your contribution)
Please guys stop picking pennies and look at the political / moral / long term situation of the company .
Let’s stop looking at the finger , let’s look at the moon.
Thanks

[GScapture]

I understand Depone of just giving informative posts about the money.

Damianik is correct, I think we can all agree that the majority what the company does for employees is way below standards and not even remotely close to any other airline.

People should concentrate on bigger things. Leaving is always an option.

[gearlever]

It's so eazy....
https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/604569-easyjet-second-officer-german-contact.html

[VJW]

Again the fact you don’t use all the money they pay us for expenses- doesn’t mean the rest of us don’t and doesn’t mean the rest of us call it or treat it as ‘salary’. I for one spend about £1500 a year on income protection insurance and same again for private healthcare- both of which comes out of my net salary. Add to that food/water/Medical/uniform/car parking etc and I spend more than they give us. Remembering of course the £6k quoted is a gross figure NOT the net figure we actually receive.

The above things are only some of the perks provided free in other competitor airlines.

You aren’t just stating facts by saying you treat expenses they pay us as salary, this is your opinion and misleading. Additionally adding the £12k productivity bonus to your salary is simply talking about maximum potential earnings and while is appears it’s fairly straight forward to achieve, it is Ryanair that has convinced you to call this salary in order for it to sound better.

If you use £127k as the new deal not including pension, then let’s minus the £6k expenses and that gives you £121k. For a fair comparison, EasyJet’s maximum earnings (basic+ 15% loyalty bonus+ 5% personal bonus+sector pay) is over £140k not including pension or the benifits Ryanair gives us money for. It also doesn’t include benifits Ryanair doesn’t give us money for which include but not limited to an amazing (by comparison) staff travel system.

Whether you’re happy or not, Ryanair’s new deal, which is designed to stop us leaving is miles away from its biggest competitor and the reason so many of us are still leaving.

[a350pilots]

EasyJet’s maximum earnings (basic+ 15% loyalty bonus+ 5% personal bonus+sector pay) is over £140k not including pension or the benifits Ryanair gives us money for. It also doesn’t include benifits Ryanair doesn’t give us money for which include but not limited to an amazing (by comparison) staff travel system.

Whether you’re happy or not, Ryanair’s new deal, which is designed to stop us leaving is miles away from its biggest competitor and the reason so many of us are still leaving.

Be careful what you wish for. In some easyJet bases, there is NO loyalty bonus, only state pension, no fixed roster, state sick pay. it depends on the base!

[VJW]

Ok I’m comparing the contract I’ve just signed to the one I’m serving notice for. And ‘trying’ to compare like for like with maximum possible earnings at both - which I’ve said again here and on my post above.

RYR will state every possible amount bonus/pension/expenses to bump up the ‘sound’ of the package. Most other airlines don’t, but for comparison I did so it’s easy to see there’s still a big difference.

For my own knowledge (and so I can double check) would you kindly let me know which bases don’t not receive the Loyalty bonus at Easy.

[dirk85]

Spain (BCN and PMI) and AMS don't for sure.

[VJW]

Ok interesting to know. I’ve a friend in pmi and it’ll take more than no loyalty bonus before i start thinking he’s got a bad deal.

Back to topic we were talking about UK RYR contracts and to avoid any further confusion I’m comparing it to the LGW Easy contract.

[Mikehotel152]

Hmmm. I see what you're all saying about expensese. But nobody spends £6k on them!

I've always said this is a personal decision and many lifestyles are not suited to certain employers in this industry.

For instance, personally, I wouldn't want to be based in the London area, particularly around LGW because of the massive jump in property prices.

I'm based north of London and my reduced outgoings on property is greater than the alleged increase in take home pay offered by Easyjet.

Added to that, much debated 5/4 roster is indeed good for me, but for others it makes no difference.

Horses for courses.

[dirk85]

Since a few months easy is bonding for the type rating, no more money required upfront. at least that's what I was told by people recently been at the assessment.

[VJW]

Yes that’s correct. For me it’s about £22k over 36 months on the UK contract.

Even with this money removed I’ll be making more than I do in RYR. Please tell me what point it is you’re trying to make? Getting ‘clobbered’ by paying us a more than Line Training Captain’s make in RYR is a word I wouldn’t chose to use.

A few of the comments above are beginning to imply that RYR is a better deal than Easy. Is that the intention of the last few comments?

[VJW]

Yup I can’t answer that. But having run the numbers, it’s a no brainer for me. Even with this money removed I think my net salary will be as near as dammit the same - and that’s comparing to the ‘new deal.’ I applied and passed the assessment with Easy Long before all this mess kicked off at RYR. At that point the easy basic salary alone was more than the ENTIRE package at RYR.

The point I’m clearly not making very well, is the new deal at RYR hasn’t convinced me to stay.

[a350pilots]

Just make sure you get the contract before you signed. To avoid any bad surprises such as bases freezes.

[VJW]

Got the base I want - freeze away!

Plus not sure how you sign a contract you haven’t received ;)

[Airone2977]

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-ryanair-unions/european-pilot-group-demands-ryanair-meet-unions-collectively-idUKKBN1FD2UA

Back to business

[BluSdUp]

Dear Me, they have done it again!
How slow can they be? Is there no understanding that if they do not start treating and pay the crew properly the operation of 10 to 20% of the production will stop!

If Oleary is not gone in a few weeks and the upper management flushed and some proper managers installed promptly, this multi BILLION euro business is at risk.
Owners wake up!
Pilots stay AWAY!

To all pilots: Help fight the RYR battle,it ruins the industry!

[RAT 5]

Ryanair, in a letter in response to ECA on Wednesday, described those claims as “materially inaccurate”.

Quote from Saturday's DT. business.

"Ryanair has been referred to both HMRC and labour market bodies after claims it failed to fully respond to MP's questions about employment and pay practices. Two parliamentary committees asked authorities to investigate, citing RYR's refusal to co-operate with inquiries. RYR called the comments 'inaccurate'.

Seems there is only one version of the truth and there are a lot of 'inaccuracies' flying about.

[ChiCotje]

I am wondering if pilots are still leaving. Does anyone have some numbers on the amount of pilots that are leaving? I know that some experienced FO's from my base are leaving. And some captains that are looking into china.

[speed_alive_rotate]

Is there much strike action planned going forward? Especially in Spanish , Portuguese, German , Irish bases. Alot of people looking to book summer holidays etc ... . family and friends asking the same question , not sure what advice to be passing on!

[skyloone]

I have no firm or verifiable info but a couple I’ve spoken to at FR say that as things stand the summer schedule is going to be pretty “tight”. The feeling from them was that any sort of discruption will be rather uncomfortable and will rely on pilot goodwill to fill in the gaps... one suggested that if union talks don’t progress that goodwill might not be there. Also suggested was that the impasse with management could see summer strikes on the cards. Feelings perhaps that MOL is starting to dig his heels in now that the immediate pressure is off? Take from that what you will....

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

not sure what advice to be passing on!

The advice I would pass on is to book with another airline, not just because of the uncertainty of their ability to operate their programme, but from now and forever until this company turns a corner and starts to act professionally and with some morals.

[speed_alive_rotate]

Thanks for the information guys. Just to clarify I work for another airline and as I am sure you are aware @Johnny F@rt Pants no matter how much you try to educate friends on such matters it falls on deaf ears when flight times and cost are suitable to them.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Speed alive - it’s such a shame isn’t it. At least giving them concerns over the status of their flights might just open their eyes.

[RAT 5]

Crewing flights with trained crews is an arithmetical problem. Having enough trained pilots is an arithmetical problem plus a training one. The latter requires enough LTC's. It also requires enough time to pump the cadets through base training, after LST, at a required rate without refresher sim time. Not all airlines can do that, especially if they are expanding like a met' ballon rising aloft.

[TheMightyAtom]

This is all brilliant of Michael's brilliant 4d chess strategy, never forget that he is a master tactician and a stable genius

1. Further antagonise staff while attrition is still astronomical

2. Damage consumer confidence by announcing there may be strikes at Easter.

3. Try to half-heartedly sell the 'Big Bad Union' story, which is usually popular, except if people despise your company more than they despise the prospect of overpaid layabouts.

4 ?

5 Profit?

[45989]

Well Who would be surprised by these tactics.
A leopard never changes its spots.
Very interesting to see how it is reported in the Irish media
Spin as usual

[fly4more]

Does MOL actually risk flying on Ryanair (other than shallow promotional exercises) ?

Or, more likely , to avoid the low life, uses the company Gulfstream!

[RAT 5]

Try to half-heartedly sell the 'Big Bad Union' story,

Is that the Big Bad Union that cooperates inside a decades long reasonably happy & profitable Britannia/Thomson/Tui; or LoCo major competitor easy jet, that also seems reasonably a happy and profitable place and which seems, we are told, to offer better T's & C's?

Interesting that RYR sets its stall, of T's & C's, out against the newbie Norwegian and smallie Jet 2. Why is Europe's biggest and most favourite airline, and perhaps most profitable, simply not the top of the tree? Don't say we are 10/20% better than the lowly ones, just say "we are the best"or shut up.

[Skipname]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/feb/05/ryanair-chief-pilots-michael-oleary-strikes

Exactly what I thought, unless they are hit hard with Europe wide spread strikes things are not going to change.

Does anyone have any news about the crew's intentions or did they cave in?

[RudderTrimZero]

Primera are about to start hiring for the first of their 10 737 Max aircraft (based all over Europe). These will be going transatlantic alongside the A321neos.

They know they have to beat what RYR are offering to make it worthwhile. Road show at Stansted in the very near future. Another nail in MOL's coffin.