Ryanair Cancelling flights! [Archive] - Page 2

Flykri

20th Sep 2017, 07:11

I feel like competitors are really missing a trick here. They could offer customers a £20-30 discount on flights over the next six weeks on production of a valid Ryanair ticket on the same route/date. They'd get plenty of worried Ryanair passengers booking flights, which takes ancillary revenue away from Ryanair and boosts their own load factors, whilst showing the goodwill that Ryanair clearly don't.

I had thought of that as well... As long as you prove that you are an affected passenger, you get a nice discount and we'll show you what a good customer service is. So far nothing was done in that way in my company...

wiggy

20th Sep 2017, 07:46

I feel like competitors are really missing a trick here. They could offer customers a £20-30 discount on flights over the next six weeks..........

I'm sure the timing is just coincidence but this is how the issue is being spun in some local papers

easyJet launch massive flight sale amid Ryanair cancellation chaos - Birmingham Mail (http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-on/shopping/easyjet-launch-massive-flight-sale-13640223)

easyJet launches flash flight sale as Ryanair chaos continues - Liverpool Echo (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/easyjet-launches-flash-flight-sale-13637565)

BusAirDriver

20th Sep 2017, 09:43

If companies like Norwegian, easyJet and even Wizz play this game smart, they could put in the killer blow to Ryanair.

For many it might seem unlikely, but Ryanair are wobbling in the ring, a bit like Conor McGregor against Mayweather.

The more publicity around this, the more this is going to put a serious dent into customer confidence in the company.

Ryanair there now for the taking, and it's all their own making, it could not happen to a nicer company. :
Good riddance MOL and Ryanair

Skipname

20th Sep 2017, 10:14

What gets on my nerves is when people start to argue that the problem with FR are the 200h cadets and thus indirectly implying 'safety argument', which can be refuted in an instant. 1500h rule was implemented to stop the devaluation of our profession and not due to safety.

The 200h cadets are part (a big part) of the problem in Ryanair and not for safety reasons. They accept this ridiculous terms and conditions offered to them by Ryanair because they want to get experience and then move on to a "better airline with better T&C".
What they don't realize is that by accepting this T&C they are enabling Ryanair to grow and dictate the T&C across Europe.
If the cadets keep accepting this :mad: from Ryanair the "better airlines with better T&C" won't be around for much longer.

Binder

20th Sep 2017, 10:43

Thanks for posting the link Hargreaves.

Surprised that following the recent press conferences crews haven't gone out on a mass day of sickness....

I bet his Jockeys at Gigginstown Stables don't have to pay for water....or do they?

cowhorse

20th Sep 2017, 10:54

The 200h cadets are part (a big part) of the problem in Ryanair and not for safety reasons. They accept this ridiculous terms and conditions offered to them by Ryanair because they want to get experience and then move on to a "better airline with better T&C".
What they don't realize is that by accepting this T&C they are enabling Ryanair to grow and dictate the T&C across Europe.
If the cadets keep accepting this :mad: from Ryanair the "better airlines with better T&C" won't be around for much longer.

In my company (somewhere in the Eastern Europe, not a lo co company:) we also hire 200h cadets, but we have a strong union so this has no effect on our t&c's. So the problem with FR are not cadets per se, but the lack of organised labour (and the free market zealots in the Brussels that look past the many questionable practices regarding taxes).

But looking at a broader picture (throughout the industry), if you base guys from France in Lithuania, without giving them a choice, this is going to became a safety issue somewhere along the line (virtually destroyed private/family life, fatigue due to commuting, which may in the end result in depression, alcoholism etc).

Airlines can always throw more money your way, but this doesn't really solve the problem. We often hear about pilot fatigue in the media, but this simple problem (ie that you have no/very limited choice about the location of your base) is almost never mentioned even though it is in a way the thing that encompasses many of the other issues. I know many guys who would gladly take a pay cut if they could work an hour drive from their home.

sonicbum

20th Sep 2017, 11:39

I know many guys who would gladly take a pay cut if they could work an hour drive from their home.

Good, so basically You can pay and get a base nearby home. Seems an improvement of T&Cs.
:ugh:

cowhorse

20th Sep 2017, 11:49

Or vice versa: they throw a 1000 euros your way and of you go to Vladivostok. And if you get a big enough pool of idiots, they will go there for 'free'. Yes, to me personally, family life is more important than salary. Feel free to disagree.

P.s
Since when are t&c's only about salary?

EDDT

20th Sep 2017, 11:54

http://image.ibb.co/iE5jR5/Whats_App_Image_2017_09_20_at_13_19_22.jpg (http://imgbb.com/)

fox niner

20th Sep 2017, 11:58

What has happened to the Ryanair Pilot group?
Their webwite is dead, their twitteraccount has been idle since 2016.

fulminn

20th Sep 2017, 12:20

that was just BS runned by dutch idiots

we are doing things by ourselves this time...

McBruce

20th Sep 2017, 12:51

Seems like a very buttered up offer, one in which they will try and screw you despite your best efforts to help them out.

A proper overtime agreement would be better with no strings attached. Not sure how the financial aspect of this offer would compare to other airlines overtime agreements. As a side I've done more overtime this year in my outfit than their desperation plea is offering.

sonicbum

20th Sep 2017, 13:16

Callsign Kilo

20th Sep 2017, 13:51

A requirement to work 10 days off in a year sounds like an ongoing crewing issue to me, not one that will be solved in less than 6 weeks. Is MOL really sure that this won't happen again? And what's the definition of an 'unauthorised absence?' Anything they want it to be I'd bet!

Some bonus! Incredible that FR are still dictating terms to their pilots in their hour of need.

beachbumflyer

20th Sep 2017, 13:57

Skornogr4phy

20th Sep 2017, 14:24

RobsonCanolo

20th Sep 2017, 14:43

Yeah for newbies and trying to say it's their fault for joining is a bit steep having loans already to pay off etc. As soon as you are through training you are commmitted and the interest is ticking on the debt in many cases so you need to make the call of whats best at that time. Invest more and maybe get a job and experience or wait and pay the interest and look elsewhere for another opportunity.

Airone2977

20th Sep 2017, 14:54

It is so easy to blame the cadet, but RYR is not P2F just poor T&C, and couples a years ago it was the only deal a low timer pilots could find, and It was harsh to get in. It is way more better than paid line training, don't you think ?
And do you have any ideas how difficult it is for a cadet to have it first job in this industry ?
A RYR pilot stay on average 4 years, well MOL created the biggest FTO ever ! And does BA, EZY, Norwegian complain about the quality of former Ryanair cadet ? of course no sir

littco

20th Sep 2017, 16:15

Is MOL really sure that this won't happen again?

I imagine they thought they could ride the tide this time and then deal with the recruitment issue before it happened next year..

1 of 2 things will happen.

Either MOL is right when he said there wasn't a pilot shortage issue..

Or they will have spend the next 10 months recuiting like mad to try and dig themselves out of the hole they said they weren't in before it happens again, which of course they will deny is happening and was never an issue!

Regardless, if they are clever they could simply ground aircraft ahead of time and say it's part of the grand corporate plan rather than do what they did this time and cancel flights ..

The engines may not be spinning but management certainly will be spinning the truth!

Fire and brimstone

20th Sep 2017, 16:22

What has happened to the Ryanair Pilot group?
Their webwite is dead, their twitteraccount has been idle since 2016.

:suspect:

Did someone find out 'where they live'?

:rolleyes:

vikingivesterled

20th Sep 2017, 17:00

Or they will have spend the next 10 months recuiting like mad to try and dig themselves out of the hole they said they weren't in before it happens again, which of course they will deny is happening and was never an issue

Or they could simply prepare a bit better by scheduling in contractors to fly more at the beginning of the year, so they have more regulars/permanents/long timers left with hours, and less hollidays to take, at the end of the season. Plus taking a bit more height for disruptions and delays.
It is all about having a longer view in the operational planning, however that raises the requirement of an approximate full year schedule available already at the befinning of the year = a longer time-horizon.

Sober Lark

20th Sep 2017, 18:04

A rumour without a leg to stand on will get around some other way. Still it's great to read free speech on Ryanair. Unlike what happened to any discussions on the 'unmentionable' airline here.

Jwscud

20th Sep 2017, 18:59

Good to see Jim A get his article in the guardian. He was prepared to (and did!) sacrifice his job in an attempt to improve conditions with his work with GTD.

I see rumours abound that certain bases are circulating a response to Mick Hickey's memo given their entirely reasonable doubt that many will meet the qualifying conditions. I fully applaud their efforts and hope they get a well deserved improvement in T&Cs.

Ryanair have so eroded their trust that even if they were stood outside the crewroom dispensing wads of banknotes people wouldn't believe them.

RAT 5

20th Sep 2017, 20:04

that was just BS runned by dutch idiots
we are doing things by ourselves this time...

And just WHAT is it that you have been doing?

fulminn

20th Sep 2017, 20:15

You will see! so far is not your matter

Reversethrustset

20th Sep 2017, 21:18

About the 200H cadets. When you get lied to by the promotional material fed out by the LoCo's and the respective trainin companies and start the course, what are you supposed to do? You expect people who are now £100k in debt to not sign up to those contracts and "take one for the team"? Hell no.

The whole thing is crap, but when you get taken in by a lie, who's fault is it? Is it the cadets fault for believing the lie, or CTC's fault for feeding the lie that puts them in a situation where they can't refuse the debt.

And for those who say, they should just do it the old fashioned way, try paying a mortgage nowadays on a junior flying instructors salary and see how well that goes.

Surely if you're spending that kind of money then anyone with half a brain should realise that you shouldn't take what the flight schools feed you as gospel. It's all about research, I'm sure a little Google search would throw up allsorts, including this forum. Targeted training is what it's all about and to be honest, you're right, how can you pay a mortgage on a flight instructor's salary? The point is you probably shouldn't have got that far in the first place if you did your research properly.
Also if it's a lie what CTC feed you then that's false advertising, they can be prosecuted for that, it's every bit the cadet's fault for just throwing money at them without researching it further to come up with an informed decision.
Starry eyed wannabes were throwing money at the flight schools in the middle of the deepest recession in living memory with little chance of a job at the end of it. You have to question the naivety. Is that the flight schools fault? Hell no.

Skornogr4phy

20th Sep 2017, 21:46

Well let's put it another way. Cadets could be putting money into university for no guaranteed job at the end or they could take out the debt and have a guaranteed job which will pay around £100k a year with Ryanair. Sure they will treat you like **** but honestly, the entire jobs market is rubbish, not just aviation. Sure the unemployment figures are low, but many of those jobs are zero or low hour contracts. Even if they aren't being paid as much as pilots were 15 years ago, it's a hell of a lot more than they could be getting otherwise.

For them they are getting a chance to earn big money. It's only the ones who were earning bigger money before that are complaining. I'm not saying it's right, but that's how it is.

aj1

20th Sep 2017, 22:09

Guaranteed job with a 100k salary for new cadets.. hmmm I get your point about kids gambling blindly on uni but with Ryanair i'm not sure where you got that from.. theres nothing guaranteed in an FR contract!!!! Have you ever been charged £250 to be interviewed for a job in which case might you ever want to complain by way of looking ahead of what might be to come with that company culture? Its the F/O's that are leaving as much as the Skippers who may have earned bigger desert cash before- your very much wrong they are the only ones who are complaining. FR when you join is nothing more than slavery.

macdo

20th Sep 2017, 22:13

Jet II

20th Sep 2017, 23:16

This industry is a busted flush for the new guys, but there are plenty of opportunities out there for bright people.

But what are the pilots going to do?..

I'll get my hat... :ouch:

G-CPTN

20th Sep 2017, 23:29

Ryanair pilots reject bonus to work through cancellation crisis (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41342309).

Freehills

21st Sep 2017, 02:47

Skornogr4phy
I think being in this industry has made you a bit cynical, the entire job market isn't rubbish. Sure, you can pay 100k to get a job in the left seat earning 40k, which if all goes well will be 100k one day. A kid I know has just landed a city job, straight out of Uni, earning 40k a year and she will work damn hard. But, she'll also get every weekend off, won't have to fight to see Xmas at home,won't suffer jetlag, will be treated with considerable respect (so long as she works hard) and has the potential to make a salary which would make a TRE wince. Her debt from Uni was 50k. This isn't that uncommon a story, the big names in London (and in the provinces) take on hundreds of folk like this every year. Why in the world would she want to be a pilot? This industry is a busted flush for the new guys, but there are plenty of opportunities out there for bright people.

Yes, they take on hundreds. However the UK produces 250,000 or so graduates a year. Of which about a third end up in "non-professional" jobs. So, yes, unless you are willing to gamble that you will be one of the hundreds getting a top city job, the Ryanair route is a more certain bet. FWIW, my nephew decided not to go to university at all, cost/ benefit not worth it, went straight into book-keeping. He's doing fine, training on day release courses etc, but at the age of 22 still no hope of being able to leave home, given the local housing market. But at least he isn't 50+k in the hole, and his chance of getting a 'glittering prize' was, realistically, pretty low. (not public school, wouldn't have got into oxbridge, had offers from decent tier 2 universities)

blueonblue

21st Sep 2017, 05:48

the daily mirror just published an article in which the chief Ryanair spokesman is quoted as saying 'we do not operate zero hour contracts'. I'm stunned. They may have stopped it but they were operating zero hour contracts for a very long time, I know because I had one! Can anyone else confirm they've read this?

NSC

21st Sep 2017, 05:50

I am paying a mortgage on a dispatchers Salary.dont drive a fancy car and dont pay allamony. Life is about choices.

blueonblue

21st Sep 2017, 06:21

Yes nsc you chose to be a dispatcher. Life is indeed about choices. You can make a choice right now if you like! Go on google and look up 'ame'. Pay this guy 300 quid and get a class one medical. If you pass that go to your bank manager and ask him for 150k straight up because you want to be a pilot.

Assuming he doesn't laugh his ass off you then go to a flight school (you will need to pay for your accommodation, family home, meals other debts etc) and start studying for you atpl exams. Assuming you pass them you will also need to pass your ppl, cpl and multi IR flight tests. And right about then you'll have to do another medical. Imagine your financial status if you fail?

So after all that's done you'll need your last 30k to actually pay an airline to allow you to work for them.

Life is all about choices.

doniedarko

21st Sep 2017, 06:41

There seems to be some thread drift here .....but this makes good reading. I really hope the RYR guys stick together and get a slice of the €1.3 billion profit that was made from their ( and all the other staff) efforts.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/give-us-new-contracts-pilots-tell-ryanair-bosses-as-tensions-mount-36153858.html

As the article states it's a pivotal moment .....for the future of European aviation as a career

blueonblue

21st Sep 2017, 06:45

Did I mention sim checks twice per year for the rest of your career? Medical once a year then sometimes twice depending on how old you are? Line checks at random, usually once or twice per year? All of these are a chance at losing your entire income in a few minutes unless you're good enough. Don't like that kind of pressure, that kind of insecurity? Well that's not a problem find a job where you don't have to deal with those issues. I haven't a clue what's it like to be a doctor, but I know that the successful plastic surgeon ones doing fake boobs are paid a lot more than the ones treating children with cancer. Is that fair? I dunno. Maybe I would know if I had the brains to be a doctor and put silicone into breast tissue, but I don't and that means I don't tell plastic surgeons to behave in a manner I deem appropriate.

BehindBlueEyes

21st Sep 2017, 06:48

:} I don't think MOL would be quite so supportive of Norwegian now...

Norwegian Airlines: Ryanair's O'Leary blasts Bernie Sanders opposition to Cork/US flights - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/norwegian-airlines-ryanairs-oleary-blasts-bernie-sanders-opposition-to-corkus-flights-34708886.html)

bigdaviet

21st Sep 2017, 07:01

Good luck to all those trying to organise some demands!

They will never admit it publicly but FR probably realise some improvements to pilot conditions are needed when they are this short of pilots.

There are plenty of options around the world now so there is no guarantee that Air Berlin and Alitalia pilots will flock to FR in their droves, especially with such poor contracts and an absolutely toxic reputation for the way they treat their staff.

bigdaviet

21st Sep 2017, 07:05

I'm also delighted that for the first time in my memory, the media is calling this for what it is.

News outlets from BBC to Bloomberg are rightly calling this a "pilot shortage." Not a single one is believing the BS about staff holidays!

RHINO

21st Sep 2017, 08:38

Any UK based Ryanair pilots care to comment on what the mood is at Stansted. Is everybody clamouring for the retention bonus or are they going to ignore it?

macdo

21st Sep 2017, 08:42

Hi Freehills
yes, you are quite right, and I have the utmost sympathy for the millions who were conned by Tony Blair into thinking that any old degree would unlock the door to riches.

I was trying to make the comparison between the amount of 'bright' people who get top graduate jobs outside of airlines, on a similar start salary, with the number of people who start as airline pilots each year.

Anyway, I would also like to wish the RYR working groups the best of luck in trying to improve their lot. And the BBC for once, for accurately reporting the IR issues at RYR, instead of regurgitating the RYR press releases.

PA28161

21st Sep 2017, 09:35

You don't need an exceptional, Brain, as you put it, to be a doctor. Just a bloody good memory and of course dedication and a liking for sick people. Trust me, I should know, I'm a doctor

PA28161

21st Sep 2017, 09:41

Exactly!! Well said. And that applies to the pilots who are going to strike this Saturday at TCX

Bernoulli

21st Sep 2017, 09:48

The answer is to NOT leave, rather to stay and change things for the better. Leaving is just another form of defeat, of appeasement. However much you give in terms of pay and conditions people like O'Leary will always want more.

Ryanair pilots: get organised.

babemagnet

21st Sep 2017, 10:03

Pilots in Dublin are getting a 10,000€ payrise? What about my base 😬

Can737

21st Sep 2017, 10:03

Ryanair flight cancellations: Pilots threaten 'mass sick days' in wake of huge staff shortage | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/ryanair-flight-cancellations-pilots-strike-better-terms-budget-airline-flight-crew-union-mass-sick-a7958651.html)

Vendee

21st Sep 2017, 10:11

"Ryanair plans to make pilots change holidays" reports the BBC

Ryanair plans to make pilots change holidays - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41344653)

"Mr O'Leary told the AGM that Ryanair was facing a "significant management failure".
He said pilots who had a four-week block of holidays coming up in the next few months because of rota changes would be told to take three weeks instead and have the other week in January.
He said the firm did not need pilots' agreement for the change.
Mr O'Leary said the cancellations had cost Ryanair about 25 million euros (£22m).
He accused unions of trying to give the company "a bloody nose" and said staff did not want union representation."

MOL doesn't seem very humble.

Can737

21st Sep 2017, 10:16

MOL is going to learn the hard way, the ball is in pilots camp

OhNoCB

21st Sep 2017, 10:17

Seems that the obvious solution of pis$ing people off more was missed by all of us!

smith

21st Sep 2017, 10:19

Ryanair have just announce that they are allowing a vote to strike by pilots for the first time in their history. They are charging £10 for each ballot paper.

smith

21st Sep 2017, 10:20

They have just announced at the AGN that they intend to hire 150 new pilots in the next two weeks.

Piltdown Man

21st Sep 2017, 10:22

The basic RYR deal to employees and contractors is the same as their offer to passengers. But for any reason you don't fulfil your part you get nothing or RYR decide for any reason they don't like you, you also you get nothing. There is no certainty but things generally work out. But that's the deal, take it or leave it. It will suit many people and if it suits you, that's fine.

But any agreement offered by RYR has no heart or compassion in it. There are no favours requested and none offered. So quite why any pilot, contractor or supplier should do RYR any favours beats me. MOL has moaned and complained about greedy pilots for years and reduced had everything his own way. He now needs to call in a few favours but has none owing. This is demonstrated by its constant press briefings. This morning the BBC told us that pilot unions were holding out for better terms and conditions which is very few have taken up RYR's "generous bonus package". I never realised RYR were unionised. I also wonder how many pilots have enough hours left to actually work, even if they wanted to. Again, another bit of negative spin against "greedy pilots".

This is a company with no goodwill in fact it has the complete opposite; I'm sure there are many people who would love to stick the boot in and it falls, give it a good kicking as well. Remember, kick RYR as hard as they will kick you.

standardbrief

21st Sep 2017, 10:28

Heard on the radio Ryanair pilots are having meetings across the bases to collectively negotiate t&c’s. Well done to you all, this can be a turning point in European aviation for pilots as a profession and you have the full support of your colleagues in every other airline (for what it’s worth).

Good luck, your holding all the cards. I really hope you get the renumeration that you deserve as probably the hardest working pilots in the world.

macdo

21st Sep 2017, 10:42

Exactly!! Well said. And that applies to the pilots who are going to strike this Saturday at TCX

Think on these words that were written nearly 70 years ago, far more eloquent a reply to your unwise post than I could write.

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me"

gearlever

21st Sep 2017, 10:48

Martin Niemöller † 6. März (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/6._M%C3%A4rz) 1984 (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984)

billykim

21st Sep 2017, 10:57

The very best of luck to you all at RYR for trying to improve your conditions. And for TCX this weekend, keep up the good work.

Words can't describe how much these managers are despised... Yet they seem in such denial! Hilarious.

Cows getting bigger

21st Sep 2017, 11:01

Trying to add some context, I think we should remember that Ryanair did allow the pilot market continue during the 'dark years'. It would be interesting to see how many pilots got their first jet job because of MOL, despite the global downturn. Where he has gone wrong is in failing to recognise that the pilot market is now buoyant and people will simply shop around for the best deal, for them. Ironically, his shortage of pilots is partly due to them adopting the same hard-nosed, self-orientated mentality that has been successful for Ryanair to date. The Branson "look after your staff" quote is so apt.

Personally, I hope that this is turned into a positive for all.

anson harris

21st Sep 2017, 11:18

It would be interesting to see how many pilots got their first jet job because of MOL
I completely see where you're coming from, but it's important to also remember that they didn't take any pilots on as a favour. They did it to exploit the large numbers of pilots available and their willingness to accept less favourable terms to get a job. There is NOTHING charitable about any of it.

akindofmagic

21st Sep 2017, 11:27

Exactly!! Well said. And that applies to the pilots who are going to strike this Saturday at TCX

So the point you're making is what? People shouldn't be able to fight for the terms and conditions they think they're worth? I'm going to go with cretin, but could just as easily be troll.

avturboy

21st Sep 2017, 11:28

MOL talks about a "significant management failure" which is true (if not possibly an understatement), but this problem has not arisen at the turn of a switch, it must have been building for some time. So who was it that knew about it and more importantly why wasn't preventive action identified and taken sooner.

I would imagine that heads will roll in the management team, if they haven't already. I can't help believe that some time ago someone had all the information to predict this and either prevent it, or at least minimise it. I suspect that someone didn't speak up for fear of delivering a message that they knew would not want to be heard, probably says a lot about the management culture.

chrisstiles

21st Sep 2017, 11:39

.. and indeed you could argue that a large part of their (early) business model came about by recognising there was a mismatch between supply and demand of pilots in the market and exploiting that.

Now, of course, the boot is on the other foot.

luminum-pursuit

21st Sep 2017, 11:54

Ryanair pilots... I'm not one of you, I fly for another loco, but if ever you had the opportunity to demand change, better working conditions and union representation this is it! Don't be bought off. Good luck !

Long Haul

21st Sep 2017, 11:59

"Mr. O'Leary said the airline had 'some goodies' to propose to pilots, but added: 'If pilots misbehave, that will be the end of the goodies." - BBC, 21/09/17

As someone who has been a union member for 28 years, I urge you Ryanair pilots to misbehave, if not for yourself, then for the generations behind you. You have a unique moment to teach this condescending jerk that he cannot get away with treating his passengers and staff with such contempt.

Cirrussy

21st Sep 2017, 12:04

The VERY best of luck to you all.... The whole industry supports you, and has a keen interest in finally turning the corner of constant cuts to our terms and conditions. Keep up the good work!

NSC

21st Sep 2017, 12:07

Y es. You are right. You start your career with a debt. Why make that debt bigger by getting a mortgage? The whining bit about the mortgage annoyed me. I am fully aware of all the mousetraps ahead of you once you start a flying career.I can remember a KLM pilot who in the sixties rented a house. After a couple of years of flying and not drinking or :mad: around he ow ned a house. Payed off and his alone. Had a :mad: seniority too.todays pilotes are for the biggest part spoilt snowflakes .Period.

Ryanairpilot

21st Sep 2017, 12:08

https://twitter.com/DMcCaffreySKY/status/910802221738151936

Now where did I put that cv...

justanotherflyer

21st Sep 2017, 12:09

@PA28161

You don't need an exceptional, Brain, as you put it, to be a doctor. Just a bloody good memory and of course dedication and a liking for sick people. Trust me, I should know, I'm a doctor

By that token, would you say the job of a doctor is difficult? Once you have trained and are practised in medicine perhaps the concept of difficulty becomes moot. I.e. I would find it difficult but you wouldn't.

I'm asking this in trying to get to grips with Ryanair boss's comment (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/21/ryanair-boss-holiday-plans-michael-oleary-flight-cancellations)today:

“Once you are trained and skilled at doing it ... I would challenge any pilot to explain how this is a difficult job or how it is they are overworked or how anybody who by law can’t fly more than 18 hours a week could possibly be suffering from fatigue.”

speedrestriction

21st Sep 2017, 12:11

Sounds like the crew smell blood in the water. Time to take a big bite!

P.S. It sounds like MOL (incredibly) is reaching for the stick again. I suspect the only way he survives is by dishing out carrots; lots of them and not necessarily those which he would like to dish out.

I wonder if he is in denial.

RAT 5

21st Sep 2017, 12:32

the chief Ryanair spokesman is quoted as saying 'we do not operate zero hour contracts'.

I wonder how he defines 'zero hour contract'. No fly = no pay and no paid holidays. It walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck............
There was a judge who previously, in a case against RYR, labelled the defendants as "not credible witnesses." This quote sounds similar.

Back to the shortage question. It takes 2 months for a TR course. It then takes another couple of weeks for base training and then another 2-3 months to complete Line Training, if there are enough LTC's, and that's debatable no doubt. The recruitment process takes a few weeks. So, for any cadet wanting to be on line as a released line pilot (and remember there is probably a safety pilot also for the first couple of weeks) the whole process could take 6-8 months. April 2018, i.e. the summer program, is 6 months away. Assuming there are more airframes arriving before then the training demand for F/O's & new captains could well be greater than the training dept can supply. It is possible to calculate that now, well in advance. It is also known how many pilots & cabin crew have handed in their notice or retired, and it can be estimated how any will leave within the next 12 months to the end of summer 2018.
From the outside this does not seem a 6 week problem. Plus, flying during leave might not solve the hours and FTL's issue. And the amount offered, net after tax, is derisory when set against the amount that could be saved for the company. But, IMHO, this is a problem that will extend far into the future. There are not enough trees to shake with enough desperate monkeys in them.

The T's & C's that need to change would I'd have thought include: proper employee contracts; proper paid leave system; proper salary not hi% in flight pay; proper pension scheme base on 50-66% premiums of actual income; proper basing scheme where people want to live & work; proper out of base rosters all duty time with travel & costs paid; no self-funding of mandatory simulator sessions; travel & hotel costs paid during those sim sessions; travel & hotel costs paid during command upgrade courses; etc. etc. OMG that sounds like most of the other airlines. IMHO that is too much to happen, but it is what the competition offers. For one who lives by markets forces you can also be hurt badly by market forces. MF's affect workers as much as customers.

BehindBlueEyes

21st Sep 2017, 12:36

MOL has now issued defamation proceedings against The Guardian and Irish pilots union IALPA.

Mr O'Leary told Ryanair's annual meeting in Dublin that it did not have sufficient spare pilots for September, October and November to ensure smooth operations and was considering forcing some pilots to change their annual leave plans. He has finally admitted their are pilot shortages is Dublin, Frankfurt and Berlin.

Tango77

21st Sep 2017, 12:41

MOL will re-group, weather the storm and come back fighting!
He has lots of dirty tricks in his arsenal and not afraid to use them.
It's about as bad as it's ever been BUT with board backing, piles of cash, he'll squash any union!

Sober Lark

21st Sep 2017, 12:46

So you really think next year's Brexit implications for airlines out of the UK was a bluff?

er340790

21st Sep 2017, 12:56

BBC: Mr O'Leary said the airline had "some goodies" to propose to pilots, but added: "If pilots misbehave, that will be the end of the goodies."

This may sound like repetition, but in view of the CRETINOUS comments that spew out of O'Leary's mouth, I thought it should be repeated.

He really does believe his pilots are spoiled 5-year olds!

Jetstream67

21st Sep 2017, 13:00

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/21/ryanair-boss-holiday-plans-michael-oleary-flight-cancellations

GuardianMan

21st Sep 2017, 13:08

Hi all

I'm covering developments with Ryanair for The Guardian. I'm keen to speak to pilots regarding MOL's response to the concerns expressed by some of you.

In addition, I'm particularly interested in employment conditions and the agency/contract model.

I've been told that some pilots are facing HMRC probes as a result of an employment arrangement they were not keen on to begin with.

Feel free to answer this post or contact me on rob dot davies at guardian co uk

Thanks

Brian W May

21st Sep 2017, 13:39

What a greedy obnoxious impression that man gives . . .

All these reports of bullying and intimidatory management are unlikely to be wrong IMHO.

Reminds me of someone who ran a freight company in France, then Belgium . . .

Philip Boucher-Hayes

21st Sep 2017, 13:43

fireflybob

21st Sep 2017, 13:52

I'm retired (thankfully) but when I hear MOL spouting untruths such as pilots only doing 18 hours a week it makes me have to work on my anger management.

GuardianMan

21st Sep 2017, 13:58

Hi, keen to speak to pilots for The Guardian. Have a few issues i want to discuss with some of you, if you're willing. Can be anonymous.

Jetstream67

21st Sep 2017, 13:59

I'm retired (thankfully) but when I hear MOL spouting untruths such as pilots only doing 18 hours a week it makes me have to work on my anger management.

But MOL talks 168 hours a week so he is worth far more . . .

RAT 5

21st Sep 2017, 14:05

I'm retired (thankfully) but when I hear MOL spouting untruths such as pilots only doing 18 hours a week it makes me have to work on my anger management.

Sadly there always seem to be the wrong journalists in the wrong place at the wrong time. I watched a press conference in Sweden; I watched BBC Hardtalk: I watched a presentation in Brussels by todays modern revolutionary CEO's. Some tried to tie MOL down and they were so badly informed or briefed, or just lacking in knowledge of the subject they were listening to, their banal questions had the sting of a marshmallow. Even Hardtack focused on trying to embarrass MOL with some trivial pax encounters. It was a one-sided rout. It seems they are not there to ask searching questions, but just report what is spouted out. A few pilots asking the questions would have been more to the point. The TV program, with anonymous pilots, that attempted to portray RYR as a fundamentally unsafe airline due to fuel policy was doomed to failure.
There are enough subjects on which to focus to bring out the underlying truth without trying to be sensational. I wonder if IALPA has woken up to what is going on and they are wondering why it has taken natural forces to achieve what it could not, even with all its supposed expertise.

Callsign Kilo

21st Sep 2017, 14:06

fireflybob

21st Sep 2017, 14:38

It would be interesting if their pilots did this alleged 18 hours of work a week and not a minute more and see how well his airline runs.

Clandestino

21st Sep 2017, 14:39

I wonder if he is in denial.He is an one trick pony, though that trick has served him and RYR very well for the last couple of decades. It is still far from sure that this crew shortage will mean the end of RYR as we know it, hopefully it might.

He really does believe his pilots are spoiled 5-year olds!

Probably not, but treating them as such was so far beneficial to RYR's bottom line, not to mention some who have cashed their shares recently.

vikingivesterled

21st Sep 2017, 14:40

Ryanair's management upheavel a few years ago was all about the sales side, but Ryanair is also involved in production. The production of flights with all the organization and coordination of input through proper ERM processes that takes.
It is time to consider an AGB - Always Getting Better - program directed inwards. Some reorganisation and low cost high visibility improvements of conditions worked for the recruitment to Ryanair Labs.

aox

21st Sep 2017, 14:48

"A pilot's job isn't difficult."
"How does a pilot suffer from fatigue?"
"Pilot's only work 18 hours a week."

All quotes from MOL at today's AGM. Same rhetoric that he has used for years with regards to pilot's working hours and job entailment. It's pretty obvious the PR stance that FR are set to take on this one.

It isn't his pilots who have defined the limits.

Does this line of rhetoric imply he might consider conducting a dispute with EASA and other bodies, in order to increase maximum duty hours?

FACoff

21st Sep 2017, 14:52

"A pilot's job isn't difficult."
"How does a pilot suffer from fatigue?"
"Pilot's only work 18 hours a week."

Unfortunately these are, in my experience, also the pre-conceived assumptions of many who know little about the job and what it really entails. One has only to hope that the media give sufficient voice to the pilots who are highlighting the reality of the situation.

Dualbleed

21st Sep 2017, 15:08

They should all tell him we’ll work 18 hours a week because that’s what you pay us for, and see how that turns out !

7Q Off

21st Sep 2017, 15:24

it's your time guys, you guys have the golden opportunity to get improvements now. press now or never. Don't loose this chance. Good luck

Dufo

21st Sep 2017, 15:29

Any truth about rumour that chief pilot has resigned?

Sgt Wilson

21st Sep 2017, 16:02

“I don’t even know how there would be industrial action in Ryanair,” O’Leary said. “There isn’t a union.”

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/21/ryanair-boss-holiday-plans-michael-oleary-flight-cancellations

There you go guys and gals, MOL has told you what to do. Get a union

Well Used

21st Sep 2017, 16:07

O'L can say what he wants about pilot lifestyles but the pilots are gagged by the companies social media and other non disclosure policies. O'L has been on a win win with that for years but all the lies about holiday cock ups and all the other stuff is well and truly knocking upon his door now.

it'll be interesting how O'L manages this if those still working there do go sick on a staged system as it'll sent a great message to them and the customers.

Good luck boys and girls this is your time.

Vendee

21st Sep 2017, 16:35

Ryanair have just announce that they are allowing a vote to strike by pilots for the first time in their history. They are charging £10 for each ballot paper.

Or £25 if you upgrade to Priority Voting :E

Stone Cold II

21st Sep 2017, 17:33

FlipFlapFlop

21st Sep 2017, 17:45

Nothing will change whilst MOL is in place.

Business leaders with his style of management - rule by fear - have long memories and any gains will be short lived whilst he is in place. He will make it his business to take revenge.

Eventually he will have to be removed by the shareholders for progress to be made. He will never understand an inclusive style of management and genuinely believes he is something special. The last one I remember in the same mould was ExSir Fred Goodwin.

Cazalet33

21st Sep 2017, 17:52

Now is the time to stand up and be counted.

One; two; three ...

Why do you think they're 'working for RYR' anyway?

Think about it. It's a :mad: company.

gearlever

21st Sep 2017, 17:55

Nothing will change whilst MOL is in place.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/michael-o-leary-sells-four-million-ryanair-shares-1.3110409

Is it coincidence?

El Capitano

21st Sep 2017, 17:58

I also echo the support for the Ryr pilots. MOL is finally on the back foot. He sounds like he's going to be his usual arrogant self and play hard ball. Problem is the ball is very much in the pilots court. At the end of the day it's an airline, MOL can leave and it will still run as an airline, without the pilots and cabin crew, you have no airline.

Guys and gals your time has finally come where you can get what you've so richly deserved for all those year of poor treatment. Now is the time to stand up and be counted. Good luck.

In a previous reply one forum member told me I had no respect when I suggested the RYR pilots to get rid of O Lairy and his bandit management.

Again, O Lairy has no respect what so ever for both cockpit and cabin crew, claiming "they only work 18 hrs per month"

Once again, go get him and get him hard!

Go on strike pan European or call in sick all together. And indeed, GET UNIONISED!

Hopefull then this clown will finally give in and makes this the real Southwest Airlines of Europe. A great airline, where people love to work for and where the management loves and respect their employees as well.

A market conform salary, fixed contracts, no vague work as a independent via an agency with uncertain tax claims, normal sick pay, the right to have your holliday when you want, maybe at a rotational base, as not every flightcrew can have vacation at the same time, a good pension plan and loss of licence. And finally the right to be member with a union reckognised by the company, of which the representatives can do the negotiations for you.

Go for it! It is now or never!
And finally bonded for a type rating instead of having to pay upfront.

fivecandles

21st Sep 2017, 18:02

He still has 47,000,000 shares. Don't think he's going anywhere just yet!

Cazalet33

21st Sep 2017, 18:11

Buggah!

Ya mean he's still the boss?

Buggah!

Ian Burgess-Barber

21st Sep 2017, 18:13

Is Panic Setting in?

Have a look at your favorite Flight Radar/Plane Finder (whatever) - you will see that 2 RYR 73s, EI-FOH & EI-SEV have been pounding the circuit ALL DAY at Shannon (SNN) - is MO'L trying to qualify all the 100+ new pilots he has promised the media in one day?

tubby linton

21st Sep 2017, 18:17

Is it possible for EASA to censure a national aviation authority, because this mess would not have happened if the state CAA had actually regulated the operation and complied with EASA rules?

Finman63

21st Sep 2017, 18:18

More pressure for Oliary

We are cruising at 36,000ft and I hate these bastards even more than you do, announces Ryanair pilot (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/we-are-cruising-at-36000ft-and-i-hate-these-bastards-even-more-than-you-do-announces-ryanair-pilot-20170921136216)

gearlever

21st Sep 2017, 18:24

linmar

21st Sep 2017, 18:49

Is it possible for EASA to censure a national aviation authority, because this mess would not have happened if the state CAA had actually regulated the operation and complied with EASA rules?

No.

EASA can audit a national authority and issue findings and require the NAA to shape up. However, EASA has no mandate to take any real action such as revoking an NAAs oversight and right to issue licenses or certificates. If EASA finds that an NAA is not complying with the regulations, EASA will report to the EU Commission whom together with the Council of ministers have the power to take any real action. Given the status of some NAAs in Europe that have been reported earlier, it's more likely that MOL will get on his knees and apologise for the past 20 years than the EU-C and Council taking any action.

John Zornomatic

21st Sep 2017, 18:50

I also echo the support for the Ryr pilots. MOL is finally on the back foot. He sounds like he's going to be his usual arrogant self and play hard ball. Problem is the ball is very much in the pilots court. At the end of the day it's an airline, MOL can leave and it will still run as an airline, without the pilots and cabin crew, you have no airline.

Guys and gals your time has finally come where you can get what you've so richly deserved for all those year of poor treatment. Now is the time to stand up and be counted. Good luck.

If Ryanair pilots (and cabin crew) fail to seize the momentum, if there is a momentum at all, they might have to prepare for the backfire of their actions.

Imagine the psychological impact of a management victory over the first ever collective industrial action across all bases by pilots and cabin crew. Then it will be the last of any action by employees for years, decades to come. A lot at stake here.

Something else to think about: what if the management decides to single out individual pilots and cabin crew who have been identified as partaking in any form of industrial action action (work to rule, calling sick, reporting late, operate slow or inefficient, etc...) and fire them, tell them their services are no longer required ? Call them one by one, news will spread like a wildfire.

Will their colleagues be strong enough and stand foot ? Strike and demand fired colleagues to be rehired unconditionally ? Is there such a momentum ? Are pilots and cabin crew that much ready as a group ? If not, there is a very predictable outcome to all of this.

MaxReheat

21st Sep 2017, 18:53

It's a pity that it's taken 15 years or so to finally stand up to this obnoxious bully. It's a pity that had a stand been made then, the decay in T&Cs led by Ryanair and Easyjet might just have been stemmed. BA's acquiescence to Walsh didn't help, either, more recently.

Doors to Automatic

21st Sep 2017, 19:18

I think I speak for the entire industry, pilots and professionals alike when.....

https://youtu.be/aB2yqeD0Nus

MaverickPrime

21st Sep 2017, 19:19

While nearly 89% of the votes cast were in favour of its pay deal for directors, US pension funds Calstrs and Calpers voted against, while Calstrs also voted against the re-election of nearly the entire board, including O’Leary.

Their fellow shareholder NN Investment Partners said in a recent report that it had “growing concern about how the airline pays its staff and interacts with unions”.

The quote above is from the latest guardian article.

Someone people on here could be right about O'Leary. FR is no longer a start up or growing airline. O'Leary helped to revolutionise (hate it or love it) the airline sector in Europe, but the revolution is over and the revolutionaries are usualy the first causlities of the revolution. Ryanair is now a very profitable and established airline, it may need a more pragmatic and stable management to allow it to grow into the future. O'Leary has maybe overstayed his welcome. You could argue that O'Leary is a fundamentalist and an idealist, but usually those sort of personalities aren't the best people to run large established organisations.

Interesting to note from the above quote that some investors are genuinely concerned about the employment model.

Stone Cold II

21st Sep 2017, 19:32

I do think with the amount of heat on Ryanair and O'Leary, he has got to be feeling the pressure to keep his job. It's a shambolic mess and all the mud is being thrown. Whilst it would have been unimaginable that O'Leary would be leaving Ryanair anytime soon, the past 48 hours to me suggests there is a real possibility he could be pushed, especially if the crews hold firm by not going that extra mile. O'Leary can be replaced easily without any disruption, much harder with the crews.

FlipFlapFlop

21st Sep 2017, 19:33

Absolutely Maverick. It is time for Ryanair to grow up and live up to its position in the market. Time to say goodbye to MOL.

Cows getting bigger

21st Sep 2017, 19:45

Throwing sickies isn't the way to do it. Start sticking to your (alleged) 45 min reporting times, don't allow yourselves to be rushed, question every single 'load sheet', blah blah blah. Make the company realise how much your good will has allowed them to fly so many sectors. In 70s Britain, we called this a work to rule.

eng123

21st Sep 2017, 19:49

If companies like Norwegian, easyJet and even Wizz play this game smart, they could put in the killer blow to Ryanair.

Killer blow to Ryanair? hahaha. You, sir, are deluded!

fireflybob

21st Sep 2017, 20:14

Start sticking to your (alleged) 45 min reporting times, don't allow yourselves to be rushed, question every single 'load sheet', blah blah blah. Make the company realise how much your good will has allowed them to fly so many sectors. In 70s Britain, we called this a work to rule.

cgb, whilst I agree entirely with your sentiments the problem here are the "Martini" pilots (you know, any place, any time etc) who would not do this. Also because of the lack of union recognition individuals would be singled out for "special treatment" - fancy a base in Kaunus?

Fire and brimstone

21st Sep 2017, 20:31

If there is a good chance of the plane making it to the other end in one piece, there will ALWAYS be folk who want the cheapest ticket going.

£40 for a ticket to Malaga? "Outrageous!" I don't want to pay more than £19.99 (plus £500 for a suitcase).

That is not going to change any time soon.

The only solution, as I see it, is for the sea ferry company's to seriously up their game and provide some quality alternatives.

Combine journey with duty free, and you can close all those expensive airports too. We don't want a third runway at Heathrow we need to be digging at least one of the runways up and building the houses the country so desperately needs for all the jobs created in the wave of new dock-building.

Win-win-win.

Goodnight.

RobsonCanolo

21st Sep 2017, 20:57

Looks like there is no shortage of staff in the Ryanair PR department at least.

It's easy to see through all that fear mongering for what this really is, just an attempt trying to dissuade pilots from getting some very much needed changes that are long overdue.

Safe to say that there are many many behind you in this, best of luck!

RoyHudd

21st Sep 2017, 22:08

The time for the gutless FR pilots to strike is long overdue. (Many individuals are not gutless, of course, but as a group, the FR Pilot Group has no spine)

MOL is a foul-mouthed plebeian with greed running all the way through his shameless self. And he is supported indirectly by your tacit acceptance of his abuse and shaming of his pilot workforce. You his pilots.

Shame on you all. You could strike, you could work to rule, and instead you submit and meekly accept the terms and conditions laid down by this unpleasant SOB and his acquiescent managers.

langleybaston

21st Sep 2017, 22:23

Go on, stop pussyfooting and beating about the bush, tell us what you really think.

Pizzacake

21st Sep 2017, 22:58

Think on these words that were written nearly 70 years ago, far more eloquent a reply to your unwise post than I could write.

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me"

This is sailing too close to Godwin's law.

Tommy Gavin

21st Sep 2017, 22:58

I think its time for IALPA to openly defend and invite the ryr pilots to join their union. By Irish law one is allowed to seek representation by unions.

RAFAT

21st Sep 2017, 23:23

Although I take no pleasure in doing so, I have to agree that much of what hargreaves99 said is correct. We, as a collective pilot body, are pretty much useless at "standing together", individual circumstances and looking after oneself will always prevail. Other industries aren't like that but for some reason we are and O'Leary knows that.

In an ideal world all pilots would be treated well, with good Ts&Cs. Sadly, life isn't like that. Money rules everything.

Let's not forget LOTS of people want to be a pilot, for every RyanAir pilot there are probably 50 people with CPL/IR new who will take his/her job in a heartbeat, probably for less money. People WANT to be pilots, and they have spent £120,000 in order to qualify.

Collective industrial action? Not a chance, are you really going to put your neck/job on the line for another pilot who has been given the boot? Really? I have seen it happen before, there's lots of talk of "standing together" and it never works. Pilots are just not like that, especially when your £120,000 training debt is secured on your parents' house, or you are waiting for a command course, or you have bought a house near your home base, or your wife is pregnant again etc

This is a brief window of opportunity when pilots have the leverage, but it won't last long.

I predict this will get sorted out with some sort of solution cobbled together, customers/shareholders will be appeased, and the whole race to the bottom will continue.

Remember the business is cyclical, and at the moment there is a pilot shortage, this won't last, and when the sector is on the downward slope, people will be begging to work for RyanAir etc, because their parents' house/their house/their career will depend on it.

Chris the Robot

22nd Sep 2017, 00:13

Funnily enough, someone I know and don't like very much said last year that O'Leary should become the Taoiseach because "things would get done and would work properly". Same individual rubbished other airlines which he said were too expensive, I pointed out to much laughter that I'd rather fly with an airline which treats it's crew well. Funny how these things work out...

I think as has been pointed out, the cost of training itself is one of the things that keeps pilots from organising. Odds are, from the beginning a lot of folk see Ryanair as a stepping stone, get in, keep ones head down, do a few years and move on. With a load of debt and a lack of long-term commitment, it won't be easy to get everyone to put their head above the parapet though I hope the T&Cs are improved.

scifi

22nd Sep 2017, 00:28

A bit of old news now, but many thousands of Ryanair flights have been cancelled, in the last week, due to Pilot shortages. Apparently pilots have been leaving Ryanair for other companies, and also there has been a 'mix up' with the pilot holidays.

Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary plans to make the pilots delay their holidays, and has offered a 10,000 Euro financial incentive to them, if they help ease the backlog. It is estimated that this situation will last for at least the next six weeks.

aox

22nd Sep 2017, 00:46

Under some pressure from the CAA -

Ryanair agrees to put passengers on other airlines' flights (http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/travel/2017/09/ryanair-agrees-to-put-passengers-on-other-airlines-)

To borrow and add to a phrase from Graham Taylor, do I think Mr O'Leary will not like that.

Flyit Pointit Sortit

22nd Sep 2017, 01:49

Really?

Wow, that's a development!!. I'd be really surprised if there weren't several threads already covering such a scenario.:ugh:

Airbubba

22nd Sep 2017, 02:35

Over 400 messages in this thread:

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/599355-ryanair-cancelling-flights.html

italian stallion

22nd Sep 2017, 02:41

Can anyone please tell me the fundamental difference between Ryanair and the other lc carriers the likes of Easyjet, Wizz, BlueAir just to name a few of the them?
I mean are the terms so different or poor at Ryanair versus the others?
Do forgive me for asking but not living in the EU and not being associated with any EU carriers we here don't get to hear or read much about the discontent about pilots at other airlines.
Just curious. ..
Thanks

FlyingTruckdriver

22nd Sep 2017, 05:33

In my company, that is one you mentioned, and not the best one, the salary is lower than in Ryanair after taxes, but, I do have a local contract with HP, sick leave, social security and taxes paid, and all the usual stuff. The only money I paid out of my pocket were 80 euros for the two hotel nights during the interview. That's it. When I go out of base for any reason the company is paying everything and arranges all you need. I have night crew car service any duty day. The company pays for medical and license renewal.
As far as I know in Ryanair you have to pay for the interview (I mean you have to pay Ryanair to interviewing you), you have to pay 30k upfront for your 737 type. You are self employed (like the plumber), so you fly you get money, you don't fly, for any reason, you get nothing. Out of base you need to find your own accomodation, you pay your recurrent sim, license, medical, transportation and uniform. You are self employed, aren't you ?
Here is not the best place, and I do not think we are in a better shape than Ryan, but, espacially as first officer, the deal is better than Ryan.

Infieldg

22nd Sep 2017, 05:48

That seems unnecessarily mean.

WindSheer

22nd Sep 2017, 06:01

RAFAT Other industries aren't like that but for some reason we are and O'Leary knows that.

I work in one of those industries, and the amount of bullying and harassment that goes on is unreal. Unfortunately very few speak up for fear of being chastised by the rest of the workforce.

The days of 'brotherhood' are long gone. Look after your own career - sod everyone else!!

ImageGear

22nd Sep 2017, 06:26

I really thought the old US model worked quite well for highly trained and skilled people. i.e. If one is still in the same job after two years, and below the age of 45, chances are you have already entered the spiral dive to obscurity. Of course if you have not upskilled in that time may it's time to change horses completely. :(

Count of Monte Bisto

22nd Sep 2017, 06:27

italian stallion - there is one massive difference and that is the presence of unions. Ryanair actively prevent the presence of unions in their company and the others do not. We can get into a long discussion about how they achieve what is essentially illegal, but that is what they do. I work for easyJet and it is not perfect, but it is very good. All the contracts are visible and published - you know exactly what you get in each country. The other key difference is who runs it. Michael O'Leary is a hard-nosed, tough, aggressive individual who does not care whether his employees live or die - they are simply pawns in the game. Any pilot who does low cost in Europe knows how utterly exhausting it can be. Here is what Michael O'Leary has to say about pilot fatigue -

https://twitter.com/DMcCaffreySKY/st...02221738151936

I would strongly suggest you would be hard put to find another airline boss who would say that. This is the Victorian mill owner translated into the airline industry of today.

Icanseeclearly

22nd Sep 2017, 06:30

crewmeal

22nd Sep 2017, 06:33

It seems ironic that MOL and his gang are waiting in the wings so to speak and pick up the pieces of Alitalia if things go wrong. How the hell is he going to crew such a base given the present situation.

Cmon-PullUP

22nd Sep 2017, 07:04

ShotOne

22nd Sep 2017, 07:22

Yes there have been some threads...but they seem to disappear into a dark downstairs cupboard of pprune. Why would this be when Ryanair's crew shortage is by far the top aviation story there's been for some time?

vrb03kt

22nd Sep 2017, 07:23

A quick search on wikipedia reveals that in 2014 Alitalia had just over 11,000 employees in total and currently has 98 aircraft. Therefore there isn't going to be even close to "10.000 unemployed pilots right there" so what is the point in spouting these kind of grossly inaccurate figures?

Airone2977

22nd Sep 2017, 07:28

I really don't think so, Italian are proud pilot, most of them will prefer to stay redundant instead of being employed by RYR :=
Furthermore, Alitalia doesn't operate 737, you should know that !

Hotel Tango

22nd Sep 2017, 08:02

There are currently 3 threads running on Ryanair. This in itself contradicts PPRuNe rules, but the mods have recognised that there are several separate issues involved and have, to their credit, made an exception in this particular case. I don't think we need any additional threads.

BARKINGMAD

22nd Sep 2017, 08:23

Simple question from a simpleton. Does Ryr have a board of directors? If so, what are they doing whilst the chief clown and his HR/Crewing lackeys steer the ship towards the rocks? And judging from noises from other airlines, the flying hours versus leave versus crew numbers is not only affecting Ryr!

Now where did I put that cruise ship brochure...........?

Direct Bondi

22nd Sep 2017, 08:25

Ryanair pilots should not expect any regulatory intervention. European oversight is a bureaucratic gravy train with some Excepted Airlines and Special Arrangements for those in charge.

The Guardian article mentioned several airlines offering Ryanair pilots better “employment”. Norwegian was not one of them, nor can it be.

Irrespective of free uniforms, it is a fact that directly employed Ryanair pilots leaving to be employed by OSM or Rishworth agencies and temporarily rented to a Norwegian airline, will have even fewer labor rights and labor principles than they do now. Other than Scandinavia, Norwegian pilots have neither union representation nor a collective agreement with the airline. From the ‘pot to the frying pan’ may never be more appropriate.

Pilots on Ryanair contracts have a legal right to organize and obtain trade union representation to the airline. Pilots on atypical contracts, such as Norwegian, have no such right. Rather than run away ALL Ryanair pilots at ALL bases should immediately and individually join the Irish Airline Pilots Association via the internet:

https://ialpa.net/forums/index.php?app=core&module=global&section=register

As membership increases IALPA can organize a representation vote - permitted without prejudice under ILO convention 98, to which Ireland is a signatory:

http://blue.lim.ilo.org/cariblex/pdfs/ILO_Convention_98.pdf

Such action will determine if Ryanair pilots wish to remain divided slaves or united masters of their destiny.

I’d write more, but more important than any megalomaniac collector of broken fridges and cookers, I’m watching KUWK and there’s a chance I may snatch a glance of Kendal Jenner’s hamster.

fireflybob

22nd Sep 2017, 08:31

Furious RyanAir Pilot Calls LBC To Reveal All About Working Conditions (http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/furious-ryanair-pilot-calls-lbc-on-working/)

Well worth a listen to!

RAT 5

22nd Sep 2017, 08:33

Rather than run away ALL Ryanair pilots at ALL bases should immediately and individually join the Irish Airline Pilots Association via the internet:

IALPA had a recruitment campaign some years ago. The rates were attractive for both ranks. Even at only 40% take-up they should have collected substantial funds. What did RYR pilots achieve in return for those contributions? If ' not a lot', that we've heard of anyway, why should pilots expect anything different with another attempt? Or is that perception misplaced?

bounce'em all

22nd Sep 2017, 08:33

Well, if Alitalia breaks there will be 10.000 unemployed pilots right there. (I don't know the real number of pilots employed, but it is many). They will all be screaming for a job, and as many cannot get jobs with other airlines, MOL will be able to set the conditions as he likes.

To Cmon-PullUp..: I wouldn't know where to start with you. Please, spare yourself any more unnecessary embarrassment and shut up. And I really mean the word "please".

To all current FR pilots: kick the :mad: while he's down. Such an epiphany won't come around again.

fireflybob

22nd Sep 2017, 08:36

Pilots on Ryanair contracts have a legal right to organize and obtain trade union representation to the airline. Pilots on atypical contracts, such as Norwegian, have no such right. Rather than run away ALL Ryanair pilots at ALL bases should immediately and individually join the Irish Airline Pilots Association via the internet:

Direct Bondi, the pilots made attempts to get union representation at various UK bases years ago and the management stated that if the pilots voted for union representation they would close the bases! They (understandably) chickened out - if you've got a big bank loan, a nice local base and a mortgage and children to feed etc this concentrates the mind somewhat.

Prophead

22nd Sep 2017, 09:02

Are Ryanair pilots still working under 'Self Employed' contracts?

If so then I don't see how any collective union action can be done without them becoming employees and IR35 caught. Ditto if they are told to change their holidays and then do as they are told.

They may need to be careful that any action taken now does not have a knock on effect later by the taxman.

If they are to be seen as self employed then they should forget any union action and the only way forward I can see, which won't jeopardise their tax situation, is to just refuse to come in to work.

ShotOne

22nd Sep 2017, 09:05

The objective isn't to give MOL a kicking, it's to get basic civilised treatment as would be taken for granted in any other professional situation. That even at this point the company response is to dish out verbal abuse doesn't bode well. The 18 hr week nonsense is hardly difficult to fact-check

a1anx

22nd Sep 2017, 09:34

I've been retired (not from Ryanair) for some time and I had no idea that things had got so bad. Zero hours contracts, hourly rate, not paid for delays, pay for your own hotel and charge it off against tax on your own company ?

I think MOL has overcooked his goose. It could even be the end of Ryanair, in its present form at least.

scifi

22nd Sep 2017, 09:47

Maybe this is the ideal time for ab-initio pilots to apply for a position with Ryanair.

Brian W May

22nd Sep 2017, 09:57

The aviation press are woefully ignorant about the difference between 18 FLYING hours and the hours on Standby, travel, simulator etc etc - how is Joe Public ever going to discern the difference?

Having listened to MOL spouting, I reckon I'd be in the queue to leave if I was unfortunate enough to work for him.

I once worked for a boss such as he . . . and left. Oh the freedom (from oppression).

Good luck to the crews . . .

G-ARZG

22nd Sep 2017, 10:15

This just begs for the headline 'Flights cancelled, wrong kind of leaves'
(see what I did there?)

Mr Angry from Purley

22nd Sep 2017, 10:28

I hope this backfires on O'Leary. 18 hours a week is pure spin.
Couple of summers ago I met a brand new FR F/O at EMA he was sleeping in his car for a week. Terrible way to treat Staff

BluSdUp

22nd Sep 2017, 10:48

Oh Dear
What a week!
Only reading , not posting for the last little while.

I figure there is at least 500 pilots working on the CV and resignation as we speak.

A dear friend of mine just rejoined the local Union after todays roster arrived.
More or less out of hrs if flying two more days.
Put on 4 days sby on his days off.

Yeeehhaa.

Time to leave.

Or time to deal?

Who knows.

Good luck to all.

United We Stand.

blueonblue

22nd Sep 2017, 11:08

Prophead. The taxman already knows about the pikey arrangement re zero hour sub contracting, the sooner each pilot is made a proper employee the better for all. Trust me.

Get some proper representation everybody and go one country at a time and get this sorted. Stick together and don't be afraid, you are needed and the public are fickle, once bookings start to turn downward the floodgates will open fairly rapidly. A lot of people will be finalising their Christmas and mid term 18' plans...

Philip Boucher-Hayes

22nd Sep 2017, 11:18

aileron

22nd Sep 2017, 11:53

Irony.

The 'joining Ryanair' thread is currently right below this thread.

Morons.

vikingivesterled

22nd Sep 2017, 12:26

I never understood the obsession with "unauthorized leave" for contractors or if a large part of your pay is based on work done, sample sector pay. As long as you eventually fly close to your maximum allowed hours an airline should just build in buffers to take account for the weakness of human physiology.
I suspect it is an unwillingness to see the difference between different groups of employees; If one can come in and sit behind a desk with the flue, another can fly a plane even if under the weather. If one goup of employees are prone to goofing off, another with more responsible jobs and backgrounds are likely to do the same given halve the chance.

GScapture

22nd Sep 2017, 12:43

Anyone know what is the situation now regarding the strike or any other actions?

The rosters been out today so probably it's just a big mess of rumors at the moment. Ranting about O'Leary in here doesn't really help anyone, but giving guys reliable information about the current situation maybe does.

Vokes55

22nd Sep 2017, 13:58

This is Ryanair, and these are Ryanair pilots - do you really expect strikes or any other actions?

The workforce will continue to bend over out of fear, and the story will be buried in days.

and

22nd Sep 2017, 16:22

Sorry to say,but nobody forced any single pilot to work for such terrible conditions.
Not accepting those kind of modern aviation slavery since the beginning would have fixed the problem at least ten years ago......we live in a free continent and we are free highly skilled and qualified individuals that should stand unite in front of such arrogant and disrespectful attitude from some management.
Said that I would like to send all my moral support to FR pilots and cabin crew,hope they will stand still having the opportunity to radically change the game all over Europe.

El Capitano

22nd Sep 2017, 16:33

This is Ryanair, and these are Ryanair pilots - do you really expect strikes or any other actions?

The workforce will continue to bend over out of fear, and the story will be buried in days.

I say it one more time, get united all together, get unionised all together and don,t let O Lairy win!

In a Belgian newspaper I just read that O Lairy wants to hire 125 additional pilots and that the pilot salary might be raised on some bases, like Stansted and Dublin.
At the same time he wants to reduce the amount of vacation days...

Say a big NO to this offer. The payrise should be for EVERY base!
And what about the cabin crew?

Once agan, start a big pan European strike to put this greedy scumbag management on their knees. You have now the attention of all the public and press.
This is your time and moment. Don,t waste it!

By the way, from a former RYR pilot I heard that most of the 1.4 bln profit does not go to O Lairy, but to the USA. As RYR is mainly funded by US sharehoulders, pension and private equity funds.

I don,t know if this is the truth, but then also at RYR it is America First!
Making big profits over the back of underpaied and overworked EU flight and cabin crew.
In the USA they can never make this possible, as both the cabin staff and pilot unions are way too strong.
So go for it, get all member at IALPA or even better, start your own union, both for pilots and cabin crew.
Every singe RYR pilot and cabin crew should be member, no one excluded!

Good luck!

Don,t give up, don,t give in!

Arewerunning

22nd Sep 2017, 16:45

Let's see if Ryanair's Pilots finally grown some balls

TheMightyAtom

22nd Sep 2017, 16:53

These 125 new pilots are ones who have already done the sims, but have been delayed months for base training. Now it's all hit the fan they've had 3 aircraft hard at it the past few days. The head of training and head of sim have even emerged from their offices to fly them! They must be getting it in the neck from above. It doesn't seem they have the training capacity to deal with what they have, I'll eat any bonus money I receive if they pull 125 guys out of thin air before the end of the year.

BonnieS

22nd Sep 2017, 17:18

Hello

I work BBC Radio 4 and we are really keen to speak to and canvass opinion the opinion of both current and recently retired pilots both from Ryanair and other companies. I'm interested in making a package on what it is like to be a pilot, the working conditions and renumeration for a (presumably) very mentally taxing job. I can speak to people via Whatsapp and all info provided would be entirely off the record unless permission is given to record. I appreciate pilots have restrictions in speaking to the media. We can also use the information and record with an actor without your details being made known.

If anyone is interested in speaking to me please can they reply to this message. My email is [email protected] and I can provide whatsapp details on request. Best wishes Bonnie

Fire and brimstone

22nd Sep 2017, 17:52

Did someone say earlier on that there was some pressure from the CAA?

I am familiar with plate techtonics, but can someone explain what 'pressure from the CAA' actually looks like?

smith

22nd Sep 2017, 18:01

A lot of people saying that FR pilots should grow a bigger bag and go in strike and they are too scared to upset anyone in case they lose their job. This is very true, from day one FR pilots have been in debt, from the day they set foot in the C-150 the debt starts to grow. When they buy their house in Surrey and their Porsche, the debt just grow and grow.

The miners on the other hand had nothing to lose, they had a council house and an A reg ford anglia rust bucket. They would go on to benefits which would just about match their miner's wage. There will be no way, nada, never the chance of a strike. The pilots have to be able to live in the manner they are accustomed to.

MaverickPrime

22nd Sep 2017, 18:45

aox

22nd Sep 2017, 19:32

Did someone say earlier on that there was some pressure from the CAA?

I am familiar with plate techtonics, but can someone explain what 'pressure from the CAA' actually looks like?

I did.

From the link I gave:

In his letter to Ryanair, Richard Moriarty, the director of consumers and markets at the CAA, said: "Whilst I appreciate that most Ryanair passengers will likely be re-routed on the same day on another Ryanair flight, many will not.

"This latter group of passengers may be better served by flying with a different airline (or indeed to or from a different nearby airport).

"The CAA's view is that Regulation EC261 requires Ryanair to offer passengers on cancelled flights alternative travel options, including flying with a different airline. Your statement yesterday runs contrary to our view and contradicts the assurances that we were given on this point by your legal team on a call at 10am yesterday morning.

"I am therefore concerned that it is Ryanair's express intention to fail to meet its obligations under Regulation EC261 and that this will give rise to significant consumer harm."

The CAA says Ryanair has since confirmed it will re-route passengers using other airlines.

Fire and brimstone

22nd Sep 2017, 19:55

......... that should do it - MOL must be :mad: himself.

:ugh:

sprite1

22nd Sep 2017, 20:13

I am an Irish journalist working for the national broadcaster, RTÉ.

I would like to speak, in confidence and off record, to any current or former Ryan Air pilots on this forum.

Please don't post here if you want to speak to me.

You can mail me - [email protected]

I also use two secure, end to end encrypted messaging apps

Threema where my ID is FYE3T6UM

Or on Signal where my number is 0878262587

All communication will be treated sensitively and discretely.

To all FR pilots,

I would suggest you take this guy up on his offer. However, and I know he'll understand why, I would suggest googling RTE's contact details separately.

The name Philip Boucher-Hayes is the name of a real RTÉ journalist, experienced in consumer law/shows and has fronted both radio and TV productions for many years in Ireland.

This will all die down in a few days/weeks. I think getting in contact will enable for your story to be given a timely burst of second wind, just to keep it fresh in people's minds that the problem hasn't gone away and further cancellations could happen up to Christmas/next year.

Money talks, it's all O'Leary knows.

€10000 pay rise for all 4000 pilots is €40m. It's cheaper to pay many Senior Counsel for many years to stop you. But if future earnings project downward, it'll add to his costings and make paying you more worthwhile.

So contact RTÉ and request to speak with Philip is my advice. Sources and contacts are journalists lifeblood. They go to jail before they'd offer up names so don't worry on that front.

You need this crewing problem to remain current and in people's minds while you're negotiating with O'Leary. Some of you, contact RTÉ now.

aox

22nd Sep 2017, 20:15

......... that should do it - MOL must be :mad: himself.

:ugh:

Well, unless the CAA are mistaken, either about the means of persuasion or the outcome, this may have worked.

The article continues:

A Ryanair spokesperson said: "We have re-accommodated over 175,000 customers on other Ryanair flights – over 55% of affected customers – and more than 63,000 flight refunds have been processed (over 20% of affected customers).

"Ryanair expects to have processed over 300,000 alternative routings or refunds for customers (over 95% of affected customers) by the end of this week, within six days of customers being notified of these flight cancellations."

When pushed on whether Ryanair has agreed to use other airlines, he added: "Given the fact we have re-accommodated 75% of our affected customers and given the size of our network, it's unlikely we will need to, but will do so if necessary."

On the other hand it had opened:

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has stepped in after Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary said the budget carrier would not pay for passengers to take flights on other airlines, stating that that was not required under EU flight delay law. This comes amid widespread disruption caused by Ryanair cancelling thousands of flights.

Ryanair agrees to put passengers on other airlines' flights (http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/travel/2017/09/ryanair-agrees-to-put-passengers-on-other-airlines-?_ga=2.3135216.1374272323.1504000044-1292275957.1504000044)

If you think Moneysavingexpert isn't proper journalism and has something wrong, here is the Financial Times actually quoting O'Leary's earlier refusal

https://www.ft.com/content/a981e32e-9d0a-11e7-9a86-4d5a475ba4c5

What if there is a flight on another carrier that arrives earlier than the next Ryanair flight?

The UK’s Civil Aviation Authority says that if an alternative airline is flying to your destination “significantly sooner” than the next flight offered by Ryanair, you have the right to be booked on to a different airline. However, Ryanair’s chief executive Michael O’Leary has said that the airline will not book passengers on to flights with rival carriers.

“We will not pay for flights on other airlines, no. It is not part of the EU261 entitlement,” he said, referring to European passenger rights legislation covering cancelled flights.

So, just possibly, and despite your scepticism, perhaps there has been some movement.

It makes sense to me, as although it's another means of transport this happens with cross-Channel ferries and Eurotunnel - if one has problems, they send you straight to one of the others.

Arfur Dent

22nd Sep 2017, 20:15

I am a retired Cathay Pacific 744 Captain. I flew with many ex Ryanair Captains who were my First Officers on big jets (B747-400). It was a transition for them and they were all very good at their jobs and an absolute pleasure to fly with.
MOL should be careful when he demeans his employees as "button pushers and overpaid taxi drivers". Your pilots are absolutely fundamental to the success of your airline you idiot. Treat them well. Respect them and give them decent contracts. Not that hard is it? Could Michael (with his €1.08 billion personal fortune) really be the next Gerald Ratner? I certainly hope so.

bfr

23rd Sep 2017, 00:03

O'Leary is claiming in the Irish times that pilots are overpaid for doing a simple automated job..

The pay scales quoted are Captains €150,000 to €180,000
FOs. €80,000 to €120,000

Are these correct or is he trying to turn the punters against the pilots by making them seem like overpaid madonnas?

Captain scheduled hourly rate on contractor used to be 140,5€/h.
So 900h*140,5=126450€ (900h used to be unlikely, maybe now everybody will fly those 900h, ie around 930h scheduled block = 130665€)

And you have to pay for everythinh like already mentioned (pension , social security, company id, uniform, hotels for sim, etc)

jeehaa

23rd Sep 2017, 02:14

And for the old BRK contracts:

>1500 hrs: 83€ per scheduled block hour, minus 4,5€ for the sim recurrent (.....), times 900 hours (unlikely) is 70.650€. Same as above: everything else needs to be paid from it.

Later, Stm McG paid up to 8€ psbh LESS, and there are no more BRK contracts. Therefore it is safe to conclude that over the last 10 years, FO salaries have drastically decreased and that O'Leary has been talking horse:mad: once again.

smith

23rd Sep 2017, 05:03

Difference is pilots are responsible for people's lives, in a tin can, doing 500mph, 6 miles above the earth, OAT -56, not enough oxygen to breathe. That's why they are paid (or should be) lots of money. Anyone who thinks a pilot hasn't a lot of responsibility shouldn't be let anywhere near an aeroplane let alone have anything to do with one!

Someone I'm very close to was a miner, though he got on with his life and did very nicely! He's 70 now, fit as a fiddle and having too much fun he's no time to be bitter.

And a miner had the safety and lives of all his colleagues to think about. 2 miles below the earth, thirty oC, risk of roof collapse or gas or dust explosions if SOP's not adhered to. Being a miner is a lot more dangerous than being a pilot. I bet the average life expectany of miner is way less than that of a pilot.

Rated De

23rd Sep 2017, 05:27

As I live and breathe:

“One of the issues that I think we have to address is that maybe we have got the pilot pay a bit on the low side,” O’Leary said. “Maybe we have pushed it a little bit far in terms of pilot pay and pilot productivity.” He added the airline would address specific issues where they come up.' (The Irish Times 23/09/17)

The paradigm shift is on.

Barriers to entry (cost,acumen and time to train)
HR/IR driven models, where statutory limits are now KPI targets
Demographics

He must have been grinding his teeth conceding that.
It matters little which company or continent you are on, with the possible exception of Southwest Airlines in North America, Continental Airlines under Gordon Bethune or indeed Rob Fyfe at Air New Zealand, modern corporations seem the human input as a burdensome and troublesome pest to be marginalised, minimised and where possible out sourced.

Ryanair filled a gap and perhaps is the apex of adversarial management, small on stick big on carrot. Funnily enough, Southwest Airlines treats people with respect and has 'productivity levels' the envy of the industry.

Perhaps this style of management is due for the dustbin and like Chairman Clifford and the other Irish export at Qantas, ought be consigned to history. :ok:

parkfell

23rd Sep 2017, 06:09

Ryanair FLASH SALE until 25 September with one million seats on offer? Bookings until February.
Uhm....

Northern Flights

23rd Sep 2017, 06:45

Uber chief executive: "The truth is that there is a high cost to a bad reputation, it really matters what people think of us, especially in a global business like ours".

FrankTed

23rd Sep 2017, 07:51

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0922/https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0922/906745-ryanair/906745-ryanair/

Globally Challenged

23rd Sep 2017, 08:03

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2017/sep/23/hate-ryanair-flights-fiasco-low-prices

Interesting article.

I think more to the point is not that passengers will flood back (which they will) but that unfortunately MOL will be facilitated by pilots staying & flooding in.

mary meagher

23rd Sep 2017, 08:45

How many sectors in a day for a Ryanair pilot?

I was a passenger on a return from Greece. We were late taking off and late in arrival at Stanstead. Well past midnight. It took a considerable time even to arrange steps at the front of the aircraft. To thank the pilot and as the last passenger to deplane, I approached the cockpit.

The Captain to me looked absolutely at the end of his endurance.

How many sectors had he flown that day?

SliabhLuachra

23rd Sep 2017, 09:36

Probably a 4 sector-day. A very normal day for pilots in certain airlines.

EFISchap

23rd Sep 2017, 09:36

PLEASE HAVE A LISTEN.......... AND YOU ALL KNOW THIS IS ONLY THE HALF OF WHAT "O'LIAR"Y IS UP TO FOR CIRCA 20 YEARS NOW

https://amp.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/furious-ryanair-pilot-calls-lbc-on-working/

pfvspnf

23rd Sep 2017, 10:25

Brave brave man ! Speak up ! It's the only way employers are going to listen

Can737

23rd Sep 2017, 10:43

Interesting article.

I think more to the point is not that passengers will flood back (which they will) but that unfortunately MOL will be facilitated by pilots staying & flooding in.

There are plenty of cadets in the market and honestly who cares, they are completely useless if there is no experience left in the airline. What they need is captains that stay and can train the new recruits and fos who are upgradable to the left seat. If O'Leary doesn't want to hit the rock bottom, he better work his game with pilots and really fast, so far it appear that he still doesn't get it. Experience is leaving...:D

Well done RYA pilots for speaking publicly and for challenging the management, the whole industry is behind you and supports you.

The only way it is going to get better for all the Ryanair pilots is if they unionize, and good on them if they can include cadets in the negotiations, make go away the pay up front type rating and actually negotiate a decent a pay that starts with training. Don't trust MOL, he has proven not to be trustworthy.

https://amp.independent.ie/business/pilot-unions-from-around-the-world-lend-their-support-to-ryanair-pilots-as-dispute-continues-over-pay-36161115.html

RobsonCanolo

23rd Sep 2017, 11:48

Interesting article.

I think more to the point is not that passengers will flood back (which they will) but that unfortunately MOL will be facilitated by pilots staying & flooding in.

GC with all respect here but the evidence points in the other direction that pilots are leaving.

Saw a passegner on Euronews the other day complaining he couldnt get home... can't remember if he was in Rodez or Burgas...

Globally Challenged

23rd Sep 2017, 12:31

Don't get me wrong - I hope the guys & girls at Ryanair are able to achieve an improvement in terms for themselves. It was more of a comment relating to the article posted above which pinned the future of FR on the passengers when it appears that it is finally the employees / contractors that need to carpe diem.

If they are successful then it is likely to lift T&Cs for everyone in the industry in Europe as they are such a large player.

Best of luck to all involved.

langleybaston

23rd Sep 2017, 15:26

As SLF I am appalled by the apparently inevitable lowering of standards likely to be the outcome of Ryanair plugging gaps in the pilot numbers.

I can just force myself to use that airline when my desired flights cannot be met by alternative providers [a recent trip to Salzburg for example] but hitherto my objections to Ryanair have been on comfort in flight.

Hitherto I have felt safe in the air.

Should I worry in future? There can be little more hazardous than very tired and very unsettled pilots.

Tommy Gavin

23rd Sep 2017, 16:36

What is important to realise is that a possible action by ryr pilots and cabin crew (let’s not forget the hardworking girls and boys in the back! They are grossly underpaid!) will have am effect on all terms and conditions in th European aviation industry. It would be nice to see if ALL pilot and cabin crew unions throughout Europe will vocally back any actions made by RYR crew.

Fire and brimstone

23rd Sep 2017, 16:58

There is still no sign that the public at large give a monkeys about any of this - apart from those directly affected who are rightly livid about it.

Everyone I know books with this operator. They know what is going on, they know the risk to being stranded or cancelled, and they ALL, to a person, still book with them.

Because they are the cheapest.

This will change if and when they have to put prices up.

It's exactly the same as selling cheap milk. Why do people buy it? Price. They don't care where it comes from; how the cows are treated; the effect on the people who work in the industry; where the profits go. It's just cheap - and it works better than any other form of marketing.

End of.

RAT 5

23rd Sep 2017, 17:38

What the pilots & cabin crew MUST do is not let this become a campaign perceived to be for higher salaries. It is much more than that. The debacle is about not having enough crews- full stop. Why, is a follow up issue. It is not about pilots having to have extra leave; and what about leave for cabin crew? They have not had a mention, but I assume are equally affected.
The cancelling of flights has brought the lack of pilots issue into focus. That has then thrown up the manner in which pilots are contracted etc. Not enough pilots is a management issue. Why too few? Is it purely about T's & C's? Could well be because the shortage is about pilots leaving faster than can be replaced. That is exacerbated by a too rapid expansion: that is a management decision. if the airline consolidated its position then recruitment might keep up with departures. But RYR has to expand to survive. It's the nature of the beast, and that is not the fault of the pilots.
Why so many are leaving is about general T's & C's & zero hour contracts. If RYR can spin tis into a pay rise dispute the pilots will lose public support. The pilots have to 'get the truth out there' and refute with facts the drivel that is being spouted about the situation. RYR's pronouncements are getting all the media attention. There needs to be rebuttals of equal strength.

sAx_R54

23rd Sep 2017, 17:52

FR when you join is nothing more than slavery Interestingly there is a Corporate commitment to a Code of Business Conduct and Ethics 2016, S10 of which makes the 'public' pronouncement to meeting requirements of the Modern Slavery Act 2015, with respect to forced labour and human trafficking - https://investorryanair.azureedge.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Ryanair-Code-of-Ethics-2016.pdf?yes=here. Sounds like they do not understand what it means to have unethical practices 'in any part of the business or supply chain'. Curiously for a statement which the legal provisions set requirement for it to be made publicly available....it is well hidden!!

TheMightyAtom

23rd Sep 2017, 18:22

skymonkey1

23rd Sep 2017, 18:57

seems like the ERC structure that has been used for so many years to fragment the bases and set each one apart is being used to unify the pilot community. STN pilots have organised themselves and are sending communications the other ERC's, their union, Ryanair and the press. well done all Ryanair STN based pilots - keep unity, keep strong.

EFISchap

23rd Sep 2017, 19:02

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-22/lufthansa-advert-mocks-ryanair-pilot-fiasco-with-o-deary-jibe

Lufthansa giving "O'Dreary" a taste of his own medicine! :D

jackharr

23rd Sep 2017, 19:14

I retired 19 years ago from an employer who treated us decently. I have no complaints about my pension (Except losing out a proportion that had to be hived off to ex-wife! My fault if I am honest).

I was well aware that Ryanair treats its staff in a “strange” manner. But – and I might have misunderstood – to require pilots to pay for accommodation when routinely checked in the Sim and to have to buy water when flying, simply beggars belief

There seems to be worldwide a shortage of pilots. It’s easy for me, happy in retirement, to say what you should be doing now. But it is ESSENTIAL that you stand up to O’Leary, not just as Ryanair employees, but as representatives of pilots worldwide. He needs you and he can’t simply be allowed bribe you with cash. Call his bluff.

sAx_R54

23rd Sep 2017, 19:50

Simple question from a simpleton. Does Ryr have a board of directors?

https://investor.ryanair.com/governance/directors/

Flocks

23rd Sep 2017, 19:53

There is no charge for interviews and Ryanair does not charge for training. Ryanair does not have any ‘zero hour contracts’ and no pilots are flying for “€20 an hour” and free filtered water is available to all crew.

How can a spokesman from Ryanair has no shame to say so much bull**** and lie in the press ? I always wondered if those kind of men sleep well after selling their own families for few extra pound ...

zerotohero

23rd Sep 2017, 20:52

Read most of this now and I flew for Ryanair for nearly 8 years as Cadet. F/O then Captain.

And I have to say its just gone south since day 1 and I would rather go bankrupt with no flying job and go back to working in McDonalds than return there.

MOL clearly has zero respect for pilots from his comments in the media (Goodies) I mean seriously.

He needs forcing out by the pilots and passengers for losing money and causing hassle and stress. There is no other way. He knows no other way clearly.

I really don't get it. If I had built such a business that makes so much money id be bored by now.... He knows he can do it..... Id want to try been the best employer and lose the huge legal team for a change and see what happens. New challenge.

But never going to happen until he's left the building and a few of his minions along with him.

El Capitano

23rd Sep 2017, 21:38

Once again, get unionised all together, go on strike all together and no RYR aircraft should leave the ramp till not only the terms and conditions has been solved, but also till big moron f...ing clown O Lairy and the rest of his management are no longer at the controls of this airline.
You all deserve a better management!

Vendee

23rd Sep 2017, 22:03

I've flown with Ryanair on average twice a year since 2003. Being in the aircraft industry, I've known of some of their dodgy employment practices but hadn't realised it was quite so bad. We always plan our holiday trips well in advance and we had been planning to use Ryanair again in 2018 but that has all changed. We will be using Eurostar next year. A major factor in this decision is that we usually book our hotels on a non-refundable basis so we would lose all our money if the flight was cancelled but the way Ryanair treat their staff is also a major factor. I hope that the repugnant MOL goes and that all their staff get the decent employer they deserve.

NOT ORANGE

24th Sep 2017, 04:08

"I tell my employees that we're in the service business, and it's incidental that we fly airplanes. ... The spirit of Southwest Airlines is exuberant, it's caring, it's dedicated, it's diligent, it's fun, it's rewarding, it's a joy. ... You can't have a mid-life crisis in the airline ...Herb Kelleher"
I don't think MOL was listening too well all those years ago.I think his people skills are terrible and this is the end result.Should go and play with his herds of racehorses.
I bet Southwest lose 1/100th of the pilots RYR do.

White none please

24th Sep 2017, 06:41

A principle...... , sadly completely non existent in the Ryanair management philosophy.

https://youtu.be/lmyZMtPVodo

UAV689

24th Sep 2017, 07:02

I implore all fr drivers, all types of contracts, join your local associations.

This is our time, and its clear what is happening in stn is not indicative of the masses, just the few that are keeping the norm.

Util BUS

24th Sep 2017, 07:33

Look we must all have it wrong. It is O'Leary who is underpaid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpnaVqGgN2g

smith

24th Sep 2017, 08:09

As and ex-miner and current heavy Boeing TRI/TRE, it's clear to me that you haven't done your homework smith. Mining fatality statistics vary by region (as do those in aviation) and are available online for fact checking before posting.

Comparing a miner's remuneration to that of a pilot, is like comparing a janitor's to an accountant's.

I was comparing the fact that miners are/were prepared to take strike action.

mrshubigbus

24th Sep 2017, 08:42

No sign of high sickness or a sudden work to rule just yet then? This opportunity will soon be missed. This man surely knows he's got everyone by the balls??? 400 aircraft, nearly 100 million pax and a very, very rich man! He clearly has lots of powerful and rich friends Who take on those that can't and daren't fight back, "his staff"!!! These guys are the pits of society and the very lowest of the low! A real life 21st Century "SCROOGE"! Ryanair have never had it so good with all this press coverage! And just a bloody nose in return. So what happens next? I'd go down the "Paddy Power" betting shop and place a few Irish Euros on the result being "business as usual"! Now doesn't O'Leary have a stake in Paddy Power? This is no different to MacDonalds, Costa Coffee, Amazon etc etc, exploitation "within the so called LAW"! Now how do you go about changing that?

RAT 5

24th Sep 2017, 09:02

IMHO what is s scary is if the plots & cabin crew back down and do not improve matters during this, they might expect the mother of all retribution to descend upon them and T's & C's reduce even further. Their mettle will have been tested and found wanting. We must hope that doesn't happen.

Sober Lark

24th Sep 2017, 09:03

Called Brexit. You were told it wasn't going to be an easy divorce.

Give them €15 fares to where they want to go and there will never be an opportunity.

stormin norman

24th Sep 2017, 09:16

O'leary says in the Times today ' we may have got Pilot pay a little on the low side'

Just a Tad .

Skipname

24th Sep 2017, 09:24

No sign of high sickness or a sudden work to rule just yet then? This opportunity will soon be missed. This man surely knows he's got everyone by the balls??? 400 aircraft, nearly 100 million pax and a very, very rich man! He clearly has lots of friends verses the minority, "his staff"!!! Ryanair have never had it so good with all this press coverage! And just a bloody nose in return. So what happens next? I'd go down the "Paddy Power" betting shop and place a few Irish Euros on the result being "business as usual"! Now doesn't O'Leary have a stake in Paddy Power? This is no different to MacDonalds, Costa Coffee, Amazon etc etc, exploitation "within the so called LAW"! Now how do you go about changing that?

Of course there is no sign of the FR crew doing anything to force an improvement in T&C. When did they ever have a backbone and stood up to MOL? I suspect they will just bend over and will be business as usual for Ryanair.

Marlon Brando

24th Sep 2017, 09:24

Does anyone know if planes were grounded yesterday or this morning, because of "sick"/late pilots ?

If not, well...
it's over already

speed_alive_rotate

24th Sep 2017, 09:26

Are any wheels in motion by the pilots at any of the bases? Hear a lot of meetings are going on - just hope you all support each other, if things don't change now management know they can do whatever they damn like going into the future.

Best of luck to all staff and their families - you have support of all pilots worldwide

hoss183

24th Sep 2017, 09:34

Ryanair asks Uber drivers if they?d like to try flying a plane (http://newsthump.com/2017/09/23/ryanair-asks-uber-drivers-if-theyd-like-to-try-flying-a-plane/)

BluSdUp

24th Sep 2017, 10:32

I would like to point out that RYR would not be were they are now if it was not for all the pilots that payed for the typerating .

That is now the industry standard.
It would not be like this if it was not for you.

So this is the time for YOU , that helped RYR and the other greedy LOC CEOs ,to make amends.

Support your local ALPA and help us make RYR a great place to work, like South West.

That will make for a safe and prosperous company. Not only for RYR.
But for all the wannabe LOCOs in Europe and the rest of the world.

And for Gods sake : Put on a proper uniform so I can tell the difference between you and a Cadet! ( sorry, just had to add that)

The fact that you payed for your Type rating does not make you a traitor to me, but if You dont act now,,,,,,
Well then it is up for review!

I have held back on this for a long time, but this is the truth and historic fact!

Putting on my old helmet and standing by for incoming!

Good luck to all.

Can737

24th Sep 2017, 11:08

I am sure they are getting organized, O'Leary is screwed for the next few weeks anyways.

Greenlights

24th Sep 2017, 13:07

INteresting links (http://www.cockpitseeker.com/2017/ryanair-shoe-to-drop/)

RYR ? waiting for the other shoe to drop « cockpitseeker (http://www.cockpitseeker.com/2017/ryanair-shoe-to-drop/)

and

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/michael-o-leary-sells-four-million-ryanair-shares-1.3110409

was he preparing for it ? is it legal ?

hoss183

24th Sep 2017, 13:27

That's insider dealing. I'd be surprised if thats not picked up by the authorities...

mrshubigbus

24th Sep 2017, 15:39

Ryanair pilots - Your time is "RIGHT NOW"! A one off chance to save not only your own terms and conditions but this whole industry from being ruined by one smug bugger of an Irishman with a bloody great ego and his airline that has slowly brought down Ts & Cs across the UK Airline industry! And why? Because other CEOs are following his example and getting away with it! This "rush to the bottom" didn't just happen, Ryanair started it, EasyJet followed and slowly but surely others are following by example. Worst of all, he's got away with it! Ryanair might have more passengers than most other UK airlines put together and a fleet that will number over 500 in the next few years but at what cost? Only you can be the judge of that! Pilot Ts & Cs will never recover if this is allowed to continue. You might as well have Donald Trump running your airline!!! As for pilot representation - words fail me! Without BALPA it could have been much worse for the rest of us, well just like Ryanair in fact! Just ask any Thomas Cook pilot right now!

blind pew

24th Sep 2017, 16:42

I started off with a flag carrier where one of the union reps sold us out and went straight into management..this was after a near strike which led to Britian's worse disaster and an airline that lost seven hulls in the six years I worked for them. Few appeared at the public inquiry and the main witness was drummed out of the airline and went on to work for club Med teaching sailing dinghys.

I eventually joined The European Airline..fantastic salary,conditions and pension. A loco was set up without our standards and on my post command course I witnessed a fellow captain haranguing the chief pilot about safety. He was taken aside and read the riot act. The loco subsequently lost two aircraft through pilot error.

A colleague took the airline to court as some of us hadn't had leave for eighteen months and won (local law minimum of two weeks leave). Another colleague failed him on a sim check so they could sack him.

The airline decided to replace 25% of the fleet within less than a year which lead to a massive pilot shortage..most of the trainers resigned but there are always your mates who will dump on you.

We had managers resign and some who were sacked who refused to comply with some of the sh&t descending from above.

End result airline went skint and loco carried on..not forgetting that the morons voted for one of our ex chief pilots to run the pension fund.

I fly with Ryaniar and mostly it's a better product than my first employer from whom I receive a small pension. I avoid them. The exception was nearly two weeks ago on the day after my flight was cancelled to Nice where the captain was a disgrace as said zero after the precabin briefing in spite of sitting on the taxiway in dublin for 15 minutes. Professional ..no way.

I also have some contact with a very experienced avaitor whom I respect and has insider information that Ryaniar standards are very high.

Yes I will continue to fly with them even though I have the ackkers to go elsewhere. I do have no fly operators.

I don't expect that the majority of the pilots will take action because (we) are a self centred bunch.

I note that the FR pilot didn't mention top end salaries on the radio interview...hundred plus grand after tax? For 5 on 4 off...yes please.

Command after four years! Took me and a lot of my mates twenty years...and we were professionals!

And don't forget the tax fiddle for Brits who live in frog but fly out of the uk!

Coquelet

24th Sep 2017, 16:46

wiggy

24th Sep 2017, 17:02

And don't forget the tax fiddle for Brits who live in frog but fly out of the uk!

Um......Since you've used the present tense I'd point out the way Foreign crew (certainly the Brits) who live in France are taxed changed a while ago.

Now back to the thread.....

BARKINGMAD

24th Sep 2017, 17:24

https://investor.ryanair.com/governance/directors/

Thanks for the info sAX!

The same supine behaviour was exhibited by the World's Favourite board of directors in '97 as one Robert Ayling unveiled his wonderful tailfins fiasco costing northwards of £60 million and failed to make one penny in extra profits whilst making a once great airline the laughing stock of the planet.

Time for these obsequious grovellers to stand up to the MOLs and the Wee Willys of the industry and to tell them the party is over? Hell will freeze over.

vikingivesterled

24th Sep 2017, 17:43

It is time for Ryanair to get a real cross-functional Deputy CEO, with a seat on the board, so it can work on more options for the future. O'Leary would keep an eye on proceedings and work as a back-out plan until some years down the line he could take his rightful place as a working Chairman.
This person would need to have experience from how all parts of the airline functions, be focused on the core values but at the same time be a person of trust/truth and have creative ideas on how to adjust the path.

danielsirrom

24th Sep 2017, 19:34

Was looking about a week ago to get away at October half term from EMA to NOC to visit family. My leave from work was not yet authorised so was just getting a feel for prices.

I couldn't find a pair of flights making a 3 or 4 night stay for less than £335 return base fare for 3 people.

Since then my leave has been ok'd and yesterday I booked a return trip with 3 nights away, the cost was £136 for 3 people return including priority boarding and seat reservations.

RAT 5

24th Sep 2017, 19:59

Can737

24th Sep 2017, 20:08

https://amp.independent.ie/business/irish/thousands-of-ryanair-pilots-to-hold-crunch-meetings-across-europe-36163596.html

danielsirrom

24th Sep 2017, 20:14

Not feeling smug or superior. I would have paid the higher fare if my leave had been authorised.

I posted to demonstrate what they are doing with fares.

Going to see family from local airport to local airport, Ryanair have monopoly on the route

MaverickPrime

24th Sep 2017, 20:24

Crisis-hit Ryanair 'needs 3,300 more pilots to hit targets' - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/crisi****-ryanair-needs-3300-more-pilots-to-hit-targets-36160451.html)

That's a lot of pilots! I'd imagine the number to be even larger if they can't reduce the number of pilots leaving every year!

cactusbusdrvr

24th Sep 2017, 21:26

You know that's the daily mash... it isn't ermm you know real...? Sadly as that would be amusing.

Yeah, but it was pretty damn funny.

Skipname

24th Sep 2017, 22:02

https://amp.independent.ie/business/irish/thousands-of-ryanair-pilots-to-hold-crunch-meetings-across-europe-36163596.html

I really hope this is true. If they all stick together there is nothing MOL can do about it but to agree with their demands.

On a side note, I hope the FR crew will bring the entire fleet to a standstill for at least 24 hours to squeeze MOL's :mad:

Denti

25th Sep 2017, 02:58

If they all stick together there is nothing MOL can do about it but to agree with their demands.

No chance in hell that will happen. First i do not believe they will stick together, and secondly, MOL will rather resign than give in to pilots.

RAT 5

25th Sep 2017, 07:34

This is a pure numbers game. X a/c need Y pilots. Because of expansion plans they'll need Z instructors working in XX simulators over YY weeks to achieve the training plan to cover known resignations/retirements & new airframes arriving.

What is unknown is how many will leave in the coming 4 years. They can include an estimate in the calculation. Training new cadets is limited to certain times of day, e.g. no night shifts. As the cadets are being churned out of the sausage machine there need to be new captains. That requires TRI's (captains) in the later stages, the cases only SFI's. (F/O's). Simulators are full already.
RYR say they will hire 600 pilots by May next year. They are already in the pipeline. They seem to suggest these 600 will be extra. Impossible. I'm sure many SFI's are quitting teaching to complete their own command courses. That adds to the problem that more SFI's will need training up, and that takes TRI's. All in all these processes are not quick. Recruiting cadets and them being ready for line checking is >6 months. To recruit & train a new SFI to be released for solo teaching is >2 months.
This is not a 'mis-management of rostering department'. The expansion plans and recruitment plans come from higher up; the very top. You can have all the a/c you want, but you need pilots and for that you need trainers & for that you need simulators and for all that you need time. Time & resources are what top management is all about; and they can not create time. May, next summer season, is just around the corner.

Skipname

25th Sep 2017, 08:05

Another "genius" idea from the FR management?

Many cabin crews are reporting that the "not suitable for drinking" stickers above the water taps in the galleys are being covered up.
I guess the crew can't complain about not having water anymore.

Alsacienne

25th Sep 2017, 08:29

UK TV showing Ryanair advertisement this morning ... 'seats from £14.99' ....

langleybaston

25th Sep 2017, 08:47

QUOTE:
This is a pure numbers game. X a/c need Y pilots.

Really?

Why not 2X pilots x K,

where K is an averaged constant to allow for aircraft being in use for more hours in the year in the year than is allowed for pilots, and for senior pilots providing oversight as required. This keeps the "pure numbers" simpler.

Prophead

25th Sep 2017, 09:12

You can also buy jeans for £2 made by some children in some far off seat shop. You can buy chicken for £2 kept in prisons and who have never seen a beam of sunshine in their lives.

Why do people feel smug by buying an airline ticket for zilch and their mates are paying proper prices on another carrier. Where does this feeling of superiority one from. Someone has had to pay for your cheap product. There is never something for nothing. Let's all go for dinner at McDonalds and not the local bistro.

To be fair if you want cheap clothes made in a sweatshop you go to Primark, if you want to eat cheap battery chicken you go to KFC, if you want to be flown cheaply by crew who are treated like crap you go to Ryanair. I don't think the airline has ever tried to be anything other than the 'Sports Direct' of the airline industry.

That being said, the pilots have a chance to make some good changes and I cannot imagine they will be given the chance to have this opportunity again. The winter schedule will be setting in soon so they need to act and act now if they are going to.

If they do manage to force MOL out then that will send a clear message to all the other little schemers in the company and should prove a turning point. If they do not then I would expect repercussions later.

rifruffian

25th Sep 2017, 09:29

Smugness has nothing to do with it. There is a sector of society with little disposal income. I do know this because I am within it. These people will take advantage of ultra low airfare offers to travel........and if these offers are not available they stay at home. That's all there is to that aspect of the low fares.....smugness......no.

gearlever

25th Sep 2017, 10:06

Lovely:

Crew are being given a choice of either relocating at their own expense, or going without any pay for six weeksRyanair cabin crew told to move to Europe for six weeks at their own expense or go without pay | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/ryanair-cabin-crew-move-europe-germany-holland-six-weeks-lose-pay-east-midlands-airport-a7961456.html)

Scuderia46

25th Sep 2017, 10:12

Nothing will change. Ryr pilots never had a spine and if they would have stand up a long time ago there already would have been several unions. This whole story will blow over and as soon as the media stops reporting about it the general public won't talk about it anymore.

This is indeed the ryr pilots only chance to change things, sad that many don't realize that. Partly also because many don't care about the airline and their T&C. Loads of FO's are just there to make hours and a bit of money and then move on to a better airline. There is no intention to make ryr a better airline.