Ryanair Cancelling flights! [Archive] - Page 4

HundredPercentPlease

11th Oct 2017, 10:04

I read Unions are effectively labour cartels that damage economies and the travelling public.

And yet the evidence, rather than the propaganda that you read, is that it was the only major non-unionised airline that developed such a toxic employee/employer relationship that pilots just did what they were told "if you don't like it - leave", resulting in major damage to the travelling public (and the economy of income for the board).

Large organisations need a trusted interface between the employee and employer. Safety critical organisations also need to have trusted protections for the individuals involved in safety decisions.

Lessons yet to be learnt in some places.

PS Unions are (in this case) just the pilots acting as one. So I will re-write your statement to see if it makes more sense:

I read Pilots are effectively labour cartels that damage economies and the travelling public.

Hmmm.

framer

11th Oct 2017, 10:06

I read Unions are effectively labour cartels that damage economies and the travelling public.
Unions damage the travelling public? Strange statement.

RAT 5

11th Oct 2017, 18:10

I say it again, especially in the wake of Air Berlin & Monarch which are both strong union airlines: the unions did not make to company go bust; the management did. The same was true at Sabina (via Swissair). etc. etc. Unions want a long & prosperous career for their members. Managers want a quick buck bonus and move on. Pilots embark on a done company 35year career, hopefully. Find me any CEO/MD who can say that. RB at Virgin aside.

RobsonCanolo

13th Oct 2017, 04:36

Thanks for the color there Bondi and i am sure you want the best for Ryanair pilots but when you say that it`s up to permanent to lead the way perhaps that`s true in a sense but it`s also important to point out that no one is left thinking that it is up to someone else to sort this out because everybody is in the same boat and contractors need to take part as well. If only permanent can vote they in turn need the support of contractors and vice versa on other issues. All need to participate to be able to reach a point where their goals can be achieved which should include the long term ability to negotiate with the company imho.

The moment pilots is acting as one is the moment everything else will fall into place.

MaverickPrime

13th Oct 2017, 07:25

https://www.thesun.ie/news/1577534/hudson-hero-pilot-speaks-out-against-budget-airlines-employment-policies-and-shows-support-for-ryanair-pilots/

Great to see this man speaking out against MOLs foolish assertion that piloting is easy! :ok:

akindofmagic

13th Oct 2017, 07:44

Either way, the Supreme Court written ruling is in the pubic domain, can be scrutinised and possibly appealed.

I'd be surprised if the ruling of a SUPREME court could be appealed. That's kind of the point of it being supreme.

Jonnyknoxville

13th Oct 2017, 13:30

The only reason they lost in the supreme court is because no pilot gave direct evidence , other than that , it was a done deal . back to the labour court and give direct evidence and you will win your case .

RAT 5

13th Oct 2017, 19:15

Why did the Supreme court not ensure that all facts from both sides were presented before they could give a sound judgement? Surely they should have demanded representation from both sides.

Further; is it true that Storm's rates are effectively lower than BRK's and Blue Sky's lower again? In light of the increased offers to employees why do all the contractors not get together, form their own agency, resign their present one and then re-offer themselves as real contractors employed by their own agency on their own terms? Their own agency would take care of all national legal payments. They would also decide the T's & C's and rates. As they are >50% of the plot force they would have real non-union bargaining power. I'm sure all those a/c could not be grounded in retaliation.
I was dreaming, then woke up with a start, rather than a eureka moment.

bfr

13th Oct 2017, 19:56

One tried that with GTD few years ago. He quickly got kicked out of Ryanair ! Maybe he tried too early...

Skipname

13th Oct 2017, 21:10

So from the 4000+ pilots Ryanair has, as far as I am aware of, only one came out to publicly criticise the negotiations between MOL and pilots, and that's Captain Imelda Comer. Everyone else has done it anonymously which didn't help much.

Ryanair statement on her letter:
"This letter from the so-called “EERC” is entirely disingenuous and is signed by a contractor pilot who has already resigned and is leaving Ryanair on 31st October as she confirmed she is moving to Asia. We will not be corresponding with, or replying to, the claims made by this so-called “EERC”/RPG/REPA or any other front set up by competitor pilot unions,"

Why is she the only one speaking up? Why are the Ryanair pilots such cowards that they would rather see this profession go down the :mad: hole than do something about it?

Pilot who has worked with Ryanair for over 10 years criticises negotiations in letter to Michael O?Leary - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/pilot-who-has-worked-with-ryanair-for-over-10-years-criticises-negotiations-in-letter-to-michael-oleary-36221086.html)

Bernoulli

14th Oct 2017, 11:48

One actress finally got the message out about a powerful and abusive man exploiting others and now Harvey is in rehab (aka hiding from the press and hoping it will all blow over).

Ryanair Captain Imelda Comer has bravely stepped into the limelight but now needs others to follow her if you're to achieve something similar within the airline industry. You've got to go public about just how exploitative Ryanair is towards it's workforce. At the moment the press seems open to the story but this won't last for much longer.

Ryanair pilots: get organised collectively and DO something to improve your own Ts & Cs. Actions speak louder than words.

vikingivesterled

14th Oct 2017, 16:56

To get real change/gain one has to be willing to risk everything, and that is easy to suggest/demand for they who are safely on the other side of the fence. It is also a relatively low risk for they who are on their way out regardless, and therefore ineffective.
I have myself been in or close to similar situations 3 times, and recorded 1 win and 2 losses. But even a win is usually just temporarily/pyrrhic for they who stand out in public on the front line, even if it benefits the anonymous masses. As long as the company survives, management will win in the end because their resources are mightier, their patience longer and their memory in the form of personell records are forever lasting. In certain countries the legal deck is also stacked in their favour. Sample: You can be out the door tomorrow but your case won't be up for months or years. In addition to that the usual legal won compensation being relatively miniscule and reinstatement unusual.

Boeing 7E7

14th Oct 2017, 17:03

https://youtu.be/N7h62vHoP34

Skipname

14th Oct 2017, 18:26

So much concern..... the room is empty

172_driver

14th Oct 2017, 20:13

Nor any interest from the Minister to change status quo.

Smooth Airperator

14th Oct 2017, 20:24

Irish politicians are morally corrupt just look at the amount if tax havenship they provide. The Irish CAA even worse.

CurtainTwitcher

14th Oct 2017, 23:07

Inquiries into the Irish banking sector as well as the Moriarty Tribunal reports make for very (long) but insightful reading into the corrupt connections between politics, regulators and vested interests in Ireland. Tax dodging appears to be the business model of choice.

Report of the Tribunal of Inquiry into Payments to Politicians and Related Matters Part II (http://moriarty-tribunal.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/sitecontent_427.pdf)

REPORT of the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis (https://inquiries.oireachtas.ie/banking/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/02106-HOI-BE-Report-Volume1.pdf)

Direct Bondi

15th Oct 2017, 01:58

Clare Daly is a champion of labor rights and labor principles, condemning both Ryanair and (previously) Norwegian’s convoluted labor schemes that undermine labor rights and labor principles by circumventing direct employment. She also has a talent for using applicable adjectives. The chump response to Ms. Daly is concern only for passengers’ rights while ignoring the rights of those responsible for passengers’ lives:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7h62vHoP34&feature=youtu.be

Analysis of the Supreme Court of Ireland decision in respectof Ryanair ERC’s is provided in the link below. Supporting the Ryanair appeal was that no Ryanair employee pilot(s) gave evidence or were identified – Link:

http://doras.dcu.ie/17031/1/M_Doherty_IELJ_Ryanair_Article_Submitted_Version.pdf

The Supreme Court decision should be appealed on the following grounds;

The regular announcements by the CEO that pilots only work 18 hours a week demonstrates a mindset that precludes any constructive labor negotiations by the current representative body, the ERC’s – a body established by management. Although pilots elect representatives to the ERC’s, the pilots (employees) have the right to choose the body to present representation – an internal council or trade union. Clearly, the ERC’s and their kind have been unable to achieve sufficient improvements to prevent the exodus.

The Supreme Court decision is only valid in Ireland. The EU has ruled that at bases in Europe, Ryanair is deemed as being an employer domiciled in that Member State and local labor laws shall apply - EC 44/2001, Section 5, Article 18.

It is not necessary for directly employed pilots to plead with Ryanair for no retaliation guarantees to organize or join a trade union - legislation already exists and referenced in the analysis link. Agency and self-employed contractors have no such protections. Consequently, directly employed pilots must take the lead for the benefit of all. The problem is;

If only 25% of Ryanair pilots are direct employees and 75% are contractors with no labor protection with Ryanair, then it requires the vast majority of the 25% to act, but how many of the 25% accept the reported abuses and will not act?

The EU Commission previously funded a study on the malignant cancer of Atypical Employment in Aviation and its adverse affect on safety - the safety of passengers (those with the rights) - Link (7MB):

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2014_2019/documents/tran/dv/report_atypicalemploymentinaviation_/Report_AtypicalEmploymentInAviation_en.pdf

It is interesting to note that officials failing to condemn atypical employment are usually secure in direct employment (EASA, member state regulatory authorities, FAA and DOT).

RAT 5

15th Oct 2017, 06:44

And where is ECA in all of this? They sometimes issue platitudes condemning such work practices, but where is a full-on hard-hitting warts & all publicity campaign to name & shame and so try to protect the industry they are supposed to represent?

If there are the European commission or European ASA or any other European institutions publishing edicts & judgements that are then being ignored why is the European CA to bringing the culprits to task? Is that not one of their remits?

Another consideration in the claim that MOL wants to make RYR pilots the leaders in LoCo payment: why only LoCo? He claims to be the largest airline in EU; he claims to have the best pilots; he claims to make the most profits and be the most financially secure, so why limit the benchmark to LoCo? Why not be the best 'remunerated' B737 pilots in EU? That would include the whole package, not just a 'finger in the air' income. It would include all the other niceties that the older B737 operators throw at their crews. If you claim to be the largest and best and most successful then put your money where your mouth is. There is plenty of both.

Mikehotel152

16th Oct 2017, 07:11

Why is she the only one speaking up? Why are the Ryanair pilots such cowards that they would rather see this profession go down the hole than do something about it?

Imelda has already resigned to go to another airline and therefore there can be no repercussions for her.

Journey Man

16th Oct 2017, 07:25

At some point the turkeys are going to have to vote against Christmas. To continue the zoological analogy, can a leopard change its spots?

Skipname

16th Oct 2017, 15:00

Many other captains and first officers have resigned, I didn't see them come out and publicly stand up to MOL.

What about the long term captains that are up to retirement, what's stopping them from publicly coming out?

PigeonVoyageur

16th Oct 2017, 17:15

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ryanair-crew-at-stansted-turn-down-wage-increase-1.3258113

sprite1

17th Oct 2017, 11:59

Peter Bellew to return to Ryanair, commencing December 1st. His role will be COO.

Malaysia say his departure was 'unexpected'. Wonder how much his head hunting is costing Ryanair.

Vokes55

17th Oct 2017, 13:01

Another individual despised by the majority of FR pilots.

sprite1

17th Oct 2017, 14:00

Another individual despised by the majority of FR pilots.

I heard that alright. When I worked there, he joined after I did. He was initially quite approachable etc. But alas, Ryanair's cancerous ethos struck him too.

Flyingfisher

17th Oct 2017, 16:21

I am watching people standing waiting for a Ryanair flight that has not landed yet as I would most weeks if Mol can do that.? Everyday.
You have no chance of being treated as a human beings . I don't feel sorry for the pilots but I have the greatest sympathy for the cabin crew. They did not have many options.
The pilots are well enough paid on permanent contracts and contractors know what they signed up for and had choices to make before they signed up.
I however do give credit to the way pilots have not be drawn in by the media and wish you all the best but your fight is not about money and is all about being treated as human beings.
You should wake up before you lose public support.

boyo975

17th Oct 2017, 20:37

Much tougher job for him this time round now the pilots and cabin crew have started to realise who has the power.

Marchettiman

17th Oct 2017, 21:04

Carpe diem or in English, seize the opportunity, is where Ryanair pilots and cabin crew must now be at. I sincerely hope you all stick together in the face of what I see to be the most unpleasant corporate bullying tactics I can imagine, it is possibly worse than those used in North Korea.
I am not aircrew, just an aviation minded business owner who values my employees; because while not appearing on the balance sheet they make the company what it is, and what our customers like about us. And I also understand, appreciate and reward the support we get from their families, when we all need to work long and inconvenient hours to finish a job or look after a customer.
In my view the ethics of Ryanair as a business stink, I will never forget their decision a long time ago to charge extra for disabled passenger facilities. It might be the Pound Shop of the aviation world, but at least that company treats its staff and customers well, otherwise they wouldn’t have any. How does any employee (or contractor) proudly wear the uniform or tell friends, new and old, they work for Ryanair? If I met someone who said he/she was a Ryanair Captain I would feel sorry for them rather than have respect.
I have only once travelled with the airline, it wasn’t disastrous, just unpleasant, mainly because the cabin crew were a bit like zombies doing what they had probably be told to do and nothing more.

Quasar2548

18th Oct 2017, 11:59

If I met someone who said he/she was a Ryanair Captain I would feel sorry for them rather than have respect.

I think any Captain who is incharge of an $80 million jet carrying 200 passengers deserves some respect!
Being a Captain is a difficult job, probably even more so flying for Ryanair, especially when you take into account the challenging airports Ryanair fly into. In my view the only difference between a Ryanair/BA/Virgin/Thomson/Easyjet Captain is the paint on the side of the aircraft.

RAT 5

18th Oct 2017, 17:54

Peter Bellew to return to Ryanair, commencing December 1st. His role will be COO.

Having left a reasonably stable outfit for the sunshine, why would he return knowing there is a hiding to nothing awaiting. Own bed can be attractive, but.........the new seat will be hotter than the one he left previously.

...flying for Ryanair, especially when you take into account the challenging airports Ryanair fly into.

Are you sure? There are many many challenging airports RYR choose NOT to fly to, but others do. I'm not sure of which particularly challenging airports you refer to.

VJW

18th Oct 2017, 18:16

Marchettiman - There are plenty of employers offering better T&C's for flight crew these days. However, don't feel too sorry for me. On my salary I'm in the top 2% of earners in the UK.

My next airline will both pay and treat me better I'm sure, but as far as feeling sorry for me and worrying about how I tell my friends I work for RYR. Firstly they all know, and secondly I'm on 3 times more than what my mates make, one of which is an architect.

I wear my uniform with pride because of the hard work I've put in to get the stripes, and the way I conduct myself. I care not if someone such as yourself, who doesn't know what it is we actually do (bit like the CEO) feels we don't deserve any respect. That won't be keeping me up at night.

Quasar2548

18th Oct 2017, 20:16

Are you sure? There are many many challenging airports RYR choose NOT to fly to, but others do. I'm not sure of which particularly challenging airports you refer to.

CCN circle to land. 4’ path. 1800 meter runway??

aless85

19th Oct 2017, 07:24

7574ever

19th Oct 2017, 07:35

What airport is CCN?

Carcassonne, France. The correct code is CCF.

Chesty Morgan

19th Oct 2017, 07:52

Circling isn't challenging. 4 degree slope isn't challenging. 1800 meter runway - flap 40, autobrake 3, detent 2 reverse stops you in less even at MLM.

Global_Global

19th Oct 2017, 08:10

Oh Peter is back with a special mission....Peter will lead a significant transformation in the way we reward and interact with our pilots, improve their working environment and career development over the coming years

What does that do the Chief People Officer Eddie the eagle? :D:D:D:D

Get the pop corn out....

The transformation of the relation with the crew will be in line with the change to a nice Ryanair... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNUJ_td7eJc

fireflybob

19th Oct 2017, 08:44

Circling isn't challenging

I'd rather do a straight in if possible!

Busbo

19th Oct 2017, 10:38

Circling isn't challenging. 4 degree slope isn't challenging. 1800 meter runway - flap 40, autobrake 3, detent 2 reverse stops you in less even at MLM.

I could flop mine out on the table as well but I doubt you have a ruler long enough.

Joking aside, the point being made is that Ryanair routinely fly to the smaller airports so routinely fly approaches other than radar vectored ILS approaches, even if they don't necessarily fly to all of the hardest cat C airfields. Although I suspect you already knew that.

To be honest when I see the disruption caused by some of the trickier, cat C destinations I have to wonder if it's worth all the hassle. Albeit from a mere mortal line pilots perspective.

Let me guess the reply

.....cat C airfields, not tricky

172_driver

19th Oct 2017, 10:49

Let me guess the reply

.....cat C airfields, not tricky

I wasn't going to say that, but... ;)

What Ryanair labels CAT C other operators don't.

Jwscud

19th Oct 2017, 11:56

im sure sky gods like Chesty will nail it every time in CCF or PPG in a howling mistral, or the circle into Comiso, or Pisa at night, or the VOR 33 at CIA, or many other favourites. These are all significantly more challenging in terms of getting it right consistently than the vast majority of legacy short haul destinations.

It was much more fun hands on flying than what I do these days, and you certainly earned your money a lot more.

Fundamentally, FR pilots are well trained professionals who deserve pay and condiotions commensurate with that status. The return of PB isn't exactly calculated to further that end!

Chesty Morgan

19th Oct 2017, 14:30

Joking aside, the point being made is that Ryanair routinely fly to the smaller airports so routinely fly approaches other than radar vectored ILS approaches, even if they don't necessarily fly to all of the hardest cat C airfields. Although I suspect you already knew that.
LNAV/VNAV then - not challenging.

To be honest when I see the disruption caused by some of the trickier, cat C destinations I have to wonder if it's worth all the hassle. Albeit from a mere mortal line pilots perspective.
Quite, but we don't get to choose our destination.

Let me guess the reply

.....cat C airfields, not tricky
All depends. My current airline calls Salzburg Cat C. My last one didn't. It's the same airport now as it was then. So, from who's perspective are we commenting?

Jwscud, nothing to with my position as an aviation deity. If you find a 4 degree approach challenging I suspect you shouldn't be in the position that you're in.

Chesty Morgan

19th Oct 2017, 14:31

Tis funny coming from a Yorkshire Red. Will Phillip not buy his finest lads red uniforms though?

Ah, is it the employer that makes a destination more of a challenge?

Lou Scannon

19th Oct 2017, 16:07

Just wondered if the Telegraph story is correct in that Ryan are sending "begging" letters to their ex-pilots asking if they would consider returning?

...and do they put stamps on the envelope or expect the pilots to pay to get the message?

SID PLATE

19th Oct 2017, 16:57

LNAV/VNAV then - not challenging.

Quite, but we don't get to choose our destination.

All depends. My current airline calls Salzburg Cat C. My last one didn't. It's the same airport now as it was then. So, from who's perspective are we commenting?

Jwscud, nothing to with my position as an aviation deity. If you find a 4 degree approach challenging I suspect you shouldn't be in the position that you're in.

Yo Chesty !

You come across as an absolute hoot to fly with. Can't beat over confidence and a total belief in one's absolute ability to ace an approach, and show lesser mortals how it's done.
A couple of points :
You can't use VNAV on the westerly runway in CCF. For some reason, they were allowed planning permission to build a medieval tower on the extended runway centreline.
From what I remember of the original Chesty Morgan, (1970's 80's porn star, for all you younger contributors out there), you'll need your personal 4deg approach in order for you to see the runway.

The RYR guys, despite the benefits of VNAV and of RNAV approaches lined up with the runway centreline, have to fly NPA's most working days. Other airlines don't. It can be a challenge, depending on the level of experience of the occupant of the other seat.

Also, Peter Bellew was a good guy. Then he drank the Kool Aid. Eventually he left. Now he's returned. He may well have mellowed in Malaysia. Time will tell.

Jwscud

19th Oct 2017, 17:27

This is the email I got today from Ryanair...

Dear XXXXXXXX,

I hope you are keeping well since you left Ryanair. My name is YYYYYYY and I am a new Flight Ops Bases Manager in Ryanair. We are currently a team of 4 which is doubling to 8 as part of Ryanair’s drive to significantly transform the way we reward and interact with our pilots, improve their working environment and career development.

You may or may not be are aware of the significant changes that are taking place at Ryanair. We have increased Pilot pay by up to 20% and significantly increased resources in pilot rostering, crew control, bases management and training. We still have much work to do but we have already made significant changes and plan many more for 2018 (including a new annual leave system / process) as we strive to make Ryanair the employer of choice for 737 pilots in Europe. See attached recruitment leaflet with further details.

From 01 Dec former FOPS Director Peter Bellew will be returning to Ryanair as Chief Operations Officer (COO) to lead this transformation.

If you are interested in having a conversation about returning to Ryanair, we would be delighted to hear from you. Please let me know if you are open to a conversation on this, or if you have any specific queries, and I will give you a call.

Thank you for your time.

Kindest Regards,

RAT 5

19th Oct 2017, 18:34

It has gone a long way from "RYR cancellations".

And daily RNAV where available is one thing: glad no-one mentioned visuals. That would really create thread drift. Please NO.

RAT 5

19th Oct 2017, 19:14

Sorry TangoA. Time we all went back to sleep.

Chesty Morgan

19th Oct 2017, 22:44

Yo Chesty !
You come across as an absolute hoot to fly with. Can't beat over confidence and a total belief in one's absolute ability to ace an approach, and show lesser mortals how it's done.
You can tell from a post?

The RYR guys, despite the benefits of VNAV and of RNAV approaches lined up with the runway centreline, have to fly NPA's most working days. Other airlines don't. It can be a challenge, depending on the level of experience of the occupant of the other seat.
A NPA isn't really challenging either. Which other airlines don't do NPAs most days?

Hmm how about an RNAV Visual but I don't want the red suits to feel left out as they've never even heard of such a thing. Dont worry VS into Nice works just fine
Maybe somebody who has only worked for Jet2...

yoland

20th Oct 2017, 06:58

Mc Ginley Aviation warning Stansted pilots to accept the offer from Ryanair and if they don’t,what then???????

RAT 5

20th Oct 2017, 07:35

Mc Ginley Aviation warning Stansted pilots to accept the offer from Ryanair and if they don’t,what then???????

Curious. If we assume the offers are for the direct employees only, what jurisdiction has McGinley over them? Is there something regarding the contractors that is not being reported? Are McGinley nervous that the whole contractor issue might come under scrutinty as a consequence of this whole affair. If so that would apply to all the agencies.

Direct Bondi

20th Oct 2017, 08:25

McGinley along with Brookfield are protagonists in atypical employment race to the bottom labor schemes. Any “warning” should be ignored.

An opportunity for change was previously missed resulting in defeat by the Supreme Court of Ireland egregious decision. A chance to atone for that mistake currently presents itself.

With the recent ECJ decision on jurisdiction in their favor together with media coverage of unsavory contracts and conditions, any failure to act decisively and collectively will leave the victims to blame and future support pointless.

Victims should not be fooled into accepting union representation with service provider employers (as with Norwegian's pilots). Direct employment and union representation with the airline is required – the real employer.

Of course, there are some who reject the idea of being a victim and will not act. These creatures are usually the first in line demanding to receive the benefits made through the efforts and sacrifice of others.

Jonnyknoxville

20th Oct 2017, 17:44

I'm hearing rumours out of STN that the deal has been rejected

Can737

20th Oct 2017, 18:06

After Madrid, STN, Ryanair biggest base rejected the deal.

https://amp.independent.ie/business/pilots-at-ryanairs-biggest-base-vote-to-reject-pay-deal-36246768.html

RAFAT

20th Oct 2017, 18:17

It's very interesting to see that O'Leary will go to any lengths possible to continue with his divide & conquer style, he thinks he knows the weak areas of the workforce and is going for it. Leopards cannot change their spots, O'Leary WILL NEVER change his attitude to his pilots. He may feign change but that's just a Pied Piper tactic.

Can737

20th Oct 2017, 18:41

https://www.pilots-unite.com/stansted-says-no/

Stansted says NO!!!October 20, 2017
Major action was taken today when the Stansted pilot body voted to reject the pay deal offered by Ryanair management in a 60% to 40% majority. Citing the refusal of management to enter negotiations with the pilots and the lack of guarantees for the terms offered, the largest pilot group in the Ryanair network has denied the chance for Ryanair management to ram a bad deal down the throats of the pilot body. Well done and congratulations to all of Stansted pilots who have taken the brave step to take back the terms of their own futures and in so doing has cleared away for other, more vulnerable bases to do the same! You make us proud!

So what are the next steps? Above all else, stay united and focused! We have a long way to go but look at what we have achieved in this short space of time. This is proof we are stronger together!

The ECJ ruled against Ryanair’s application of the law.
The Chief Operating Officer has lost his job.
Despite denying theres a Pilot shortage Ryanair are desperately contacting people individually on LinkedIn and other social media begging people to come back or join.
Michael O’Leary publicly and privately apologised to his staff and agreed for the first time that salaries were on the low side.
Italy has announced the start of strike action.
The Spanish cabin crew have formed a union.
The company initially made a quick offer of a few thousand euro on a “take it or leave it” basis. The arrogant, dismissive stance changed to an offer for a pilots to reach out to them to discuss issues. When pilots were not reaching out to them, they started phoning bases to arrange meetings. When pilots were not jumping at the chance to meet with Ryanair after learning there was no room for real, binding negotiations, management started phoning bases to bring offers to pilots.
Some management language is starting to shift to “what would we need to change in the offer to make you accept it?” with non-binding promises of base change transparency and other improvements to conditions.
While this is a marked shift in management’s attitude, there has been no guarantees of any binding changes to pilot contracts and without that, all of their talk means nothing, however, it is clear we are forcing change! It is clear that we can get to the negotiating tables for real change. Things are going to get more contentious now that management has fallen at their largest base! We need to stay focuses, strong, dedicated, UNITED!

Thank you Madrid! Thank you Stansted! We continue the battle!

RAT 5

20th Oct 2017, 19:57

TheFiddler

20th Oct 2017, 21:26

Hmm how about an RNAV Visual but I don't want the red suits to feel left out as they've never even heard of such a thing. Dont worry VS into Nice works just fine

Having flown the Keren3 into LLBG many times, you're talking :mad:.

Global_Global

21st Oct 2017, 09:29

SWA had s very turbulent first 10 years of industrial relations. Then the company stabilised and strengthened. Now, we hear, it is one of the best US companies to work for, certainly in aviation. Strong profits, well rewarded staff. It has a strong union and respectful industrial relations. RYR's growth from B732 to B732 is 16 years. Is it not time to embrace the full model of the company RYR claims to emulate? Mmm
Herb Kelleher VS Michael O leary...
A company that is trying to be fun for it's passengers VS one that despises it's customers :hmm:
A corporate culture in which Southwest employees take themselves lightly versus a corporate culture in which Ryanair staff are shafted and not lightly
A CEO that is well regarded by it's staff and the industry vs a CEO that is well regarded by bankers and ehhh bankers... :rolleyes:

Well a lot of work to do I guess... :}

GScapture

21st Oct 2017, 21:07

Very good news from MAD and STN. They are big bases which will show good example to another bases. Hope other bases across Europe will join them. Only few more of these and then they can unite together and start proper actions towards management.

Remember;
Not a single good or massively improved contracts have ever done in Europe without threat of a strike or actually going on strike. It will happen in Ryanair as well.

https://www.pilots-unite.com

RobsonCanolo

22nd Oct 2017, 08:52

Another point someone mentioned earlier that you get the outcome of a thing by the one you choose to deal with it. In this case Ryanair choose to bring back PB which could be said to be of the old guard. Times change and people may have a different approach to things so would be interesting to see if it's going to be more of the same or indeed a serious change to keep pilots instead of use-for-some-time-get money-for-training- and-replacement that seems to be used in the past.

Lazydogg

22nd Oct 2017, 14:35

Chesty Morgan

22nd Oct 2017, 15:11

Envisage?

I know it isn't.

Can737

22nd Oct 2017, 15:56

Hey peeps, take your RNAV and dick mesuring contest out of this room, there is plenty of place in this forum for this discussion. Wrong thread.

SID PLATE

22nd Oct 2017, 18:07

Envisage?

I know it isn't.

Mr/Mrs/ Ms Morgan

There appears to be no hope for you.

As previously suggested .. wind your neck in .. your over confident and supercilious attitude, it might be argued, sets a bad example for the new guys or girls in the right hand seat. ( Could be that's where you are at the moment .. who knows ?).

Chesty Morgan

22nd Oct 2017, 19:38

That's ok, I don't rely on hope.

Alternatively giving someone the confidence to fly, what you'd consider to be, a challenging approach does wonders for them and their ability. Maybe you should come flying with me...

Skyhigh86

22nd Oct 2017, 21:24

Can we stop this "there was this one time in band camp" rhetoric of comparing approaches we have made:zzz:

This thread isn't an online ego contest or for working out who is the bestestest pilot..

RAT 5

23rd Oct 2017, 09:13

This thread isn't an online ego contest or for working out who is the bestestest pilot..

Indeed: this thread is supposed to be about RYR cancelling flights.

Bayerische

23rd Oct 2017, 09:45

Chesty....We all agree that you are probably the best pilot that ever lived, that women want to be with you and men want to be you!!

Now lets get this thread back on topic.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-22/ryanair-pilots-to-set-pay-demands-as-biggest-base-rejects-deal

Callsign Kilo

23rd Oct 2017, 10:34

Exactly, can we get this thread back on track? Why do certain pilots feel the propensity to willy wave at every opportunity?

Important times at FR. STN & MAD bases reject their ‘deal,’ the flow towards the exit door doesn’t seem to be abating and Bellew returning as the White Knight. I hope the pilots hold firm. They deserve a positive outcome

RobsonCanolo

23rd Oct 2017, 16:21

Not a word in the piece from Bloomberg there earlier about the 6 lawfirms in the US that have started investigations against Ryanair due to the cancellations. Agree as well that i really hope a positive outcome for all pilots despite the spin there from Bloomberg calling the council rouge among other things...

skyloone

23rd Oct 2017, 16:36

Bloomberg quoting an analyst. What the analyst forgets is that they describe almost the entire pilot workforce who just want some modicum of fairness out of their employer as “rogues”....

RobsonCanolo

23rd Oct 2017, 16:46

TangoAlphad You can get Ryanair stock on the Nasdaq so i wouldn't be surprised if it's possible and also the lawfirms should know.

Chesty Morgan

23rd Oct 2017, 18:42

RavenOne

23rd Oct 2017, 22:37

Well, you're right on one count.

Men want to be in your pants then?

Mate, u have more than one problem.

Chesty Morgan

24th Oct 2017, 05:56

Was that an option?

RHINO

24th Oct 2017, 09:03

As someone in the job market at the moment a recurring theme from employers I have come into contact with is how many Ryanair pilots they have applying. Both Jet 2 and Easyjet have 100's on the books. Jet 2 in particular with an oven ready hold pool of them. Assume it is the same right the way across Europe. My guess is that MOL will be parking quite a few aircraft next summer. This is going to take some sorting out on his part.

paidworker

24th Oct 2017, 09:25

Since this all broke into the public domain what have the number of leavers been like , is it still a steady abandon ship ?

TheMightyAtom

24th Oct 2017, 09:51

Since this all broke into the public domain what have the number of leavers been like , is it still a steady abandon ship ?

I think it has accelerated both as a result of typical winter hiring and the situation hardening people's desire to move

Bayerische

24th Oct 2017, 10:03

If other airlines Jet2, Easyjet etc are smart. They should hire almost exclusively pilots from Ryanair.

They can't beat O'Leary on price but they can take a very valuable commodity off him, his experienced pilots. They need to go for the jugular now that a weak spot has been exposed.

He will be forced to improve the T's and C's of his own pilots to stop the exodus. This can only be good for everyone in the industry. A rising tide lifts all boats.

RHINO

24th Oct 2017, 11:14

Well Ryanair's T and C's are very low compared to others...and I have been comparing!. They put a headline figure up but it has more strings attached that my vest! He has some way to go to match what the others are offering. Probably yet again explains why large numbers are still leaving or looking to leave. Ryanair will have to go some way to exceed what the others have on the table....

The much vaunted myth that Ryanair is well paid has been clearly exposed.

RAT 5

24th Oct 2017, 11:51

Rising terms and conditions would also potentially cause Easy and Jet2 to raise the bar costing them more money..

What about the amount of costs saved by RYR through 'interesting' constructions. If they had to play on the same pitch as the competitors, even with lower direct T's & C's, their costs would rise to the norm. The competitors wouldn't have to do anything.

Jaair

24th Oct 2017, 12:02

I've been out of the loop for a few years as I embarked on a University degree after completing my PPL when the market was pretty bad for pilots. I'll be graduating later next year and will most likely begin ATPL training.

With airlines like Ryanair getting called out on the bad T&Cs, do you reckon (if you HAD to predict, I know it can all change overnight) that the market would be much better in say 2-3 years time?

Snapper5

24th Oct 2017, 12:26

nope , market will just keep getting worse ,
as long as people keep accepting :mad: T&Cs then the race to the bottom will continue

RAFAT

24th Oct 2017, 13:29

Jaair - As Snapper5 points out, Ts & Cs will continue to get worse, there's always a whole raft of Muppets who are willing to sell themselves down the river to get a (or perhaps their first) flying job, that won't change.

Take that degree of yours and go and get a proper job and fly for pleasure. :ok:

fireflybob

24th Oct 2017, 14:42

Take that degree of yours and go and get a proper job and fly for pleasure.

I second that!

RAT 5

24th Oct 2017, 15:24

It's a great shame/tragedy that there is even a minutiae of truth in this; not universal, but wide-spread enough.

Can737

24th Oct 2017, 18:07

I think we are finally really headed toward an eventual pilot shortage, I never thought I would say that, but I don't think it is a bad move anymore to become a pilot.

We just need to make some cleaning in the back yard and sort out the T and C mess for all. But I am optimistic again. Pilot shortage mean the ball is in our camp, and we are in the driver seat.

Ryanair stock closing at 15.60 today. Hmmm...

RAFAT

25th Oct 2017, 08:10

It is a great shame RAT 5, my 12-year old self would never have believed that I'd one day utter those words when I started down the aviation career path.

I was asked recently by a friend of a friend to go and have a chat to his Son about flying as a career choice, I politely turned him down and said that I wasn't the right man to do it.

Am I right to blame Ryanair for all that is bad about UK aviation, or would it have all gone downhill anyway without their existence?

Reversethrustset

25th Oct 2017, 08:45

No, blame the very people who accept :mad: T & Cs, that's the real reason they are so low. Ryanair are only as bad as they are because people accept what they offer, it's the same with any company. You can dress it up and disagree until the cows come home but everything offered was optional, nobody had their family held at gunpoint to make them accept it. The fundamental and basic issue is anyone will accept anything to sit in the RHS of an airliner, it is they who are to blame. Ryanair, easyjet and all the others are just offering what they can get away with and why not? That's what business is all about, reduce your costs = make more profit. It's like Valentine's Day, why do your 12 roses cost 4 x more than usual? Service station cuppas, why are they 3 x the price as anywhere else? Because us muppets are prepared to pay it, it's very simple. Ahh but it's the only job going I hear you say, well if it's that bad then why even start training? Where's the research into the job market? There probably wasn't any. Back in the day when Danny run pprune they held a seminar, they had an official statistic regarding recruitment and it went something like this..during a healthy recruitment year (that's healthy, not a recession) there are about 250-300 jobs available in that year in the UK. As a 10 year average there's about 1200 new fATPLs issued every year. The maths work out that on average, 900 will never find jobs (this was before Europe really opened up for pilot jobs, i.e. when the T&Cs rot set in) yet in the deepest recession in living memory the flight schools were FULL, yes full. That's where the issue lies, potential pilots training regardless of the situation then being forced to take any ****e that came their way to pay off training loans. Who in their wildest dreams would start training in the deepest recession in living memory, spending £100k purely based on a promise from the flight schools? Go figure, and herein lies the root of all our T&C issues.

Airone2977

25th Oct 2017, 09:15

Amen to that !

rifruffian

25th Oct 2017, 11:30

Airline pilots and wannabees looking for better T&C; and hoping a real or impending staff shortage will help them.
The advent of good T&C will raise DOC, therefore raise passenger fares.
A large number of pax who currently rely on extremely low airfares will then be unable to travel as heretofore.
Lots fewer pax........lots fewer aircraft required.........what pilot shortage?......how now about those ambitious T&C targets...?

jonesyinthesky

25th Oct 2017, 12:46

what constitutes good t's and c's ? im happy to be taking home £115k for a low cc but know if i moved to RYR i would be working longer hours but with the new UK pay deals i would be pulling in about an extra £22k give or take, plus the £10k joining bonus, ive not kids so an extra grand in my pocket might swing it

Elephant and Castle

25th Oct 2017, 13:15

I don't think so. Those same pax happily pay 40 pounds a day for parking or 7 pounds for a latte and a croissant at the airport starbucks. In fact every morning there is a considerable queue. If you afford to fly to Malaga for 40 pounds you can afford to fly for 50. After all the airline fare is by far the cheapest part of the trip.

RHINO

25th Oct 2017, 14:03

Interestingly, people getting offered jobs at the moment are getting their base of choice!

Can737

25th Oct 2017, 14:10

https://www.eurocockpit.be/campaign/pilot-unity-2017

rifruffian

25th Oct 2017, 15:51

Elephant and Castle you and I refer to different sectors of the market. You are correct inasmuch as some will tend to the spending pattern to which you refer.
Some others will fly to and from Malaga for a tenner each way , do not park at the airport or anywhere, don't buy anything within the airport or on the aircraft and quite possibly have private accommodation arrangements at foreign destination. These are not air travel clientele of commercial first choice but they do exist, the question is in what numbers ?
If the very low cost option is not available from time to time these travellers will not move.......hence fewer aircraft and pilots required.

mikk_13

25th Oct 2017, 19:45

Ryan doesn't make money from these people. For 10 bucks it is better for ryan if they don'T fly.

Ryan Air want the people who spend 10 bucks on the fare, then 50 for a bag and 20 for drinks etc. This is how they make money. Not from the 10 buck customer who doesn't spend anything more.

Slopwith

26th Oct 2017, 08:02

Menioned above but not obvious what it refers to:

https://www.eurocockpit.be/campaign/pilot-unity-2017

The ECA have started a sort of “Crowdfund” scheme to support non represented pilots.

Funny, I was saying the other day to some colleagues that BALPA should start a Crowdfund to support FR pilots and then received an email from the ECA saying they have done just that! It would be nice to know how many and how much is going in though as am happy to put in more if it is really going to become a war chest!

I firmly believe it is in all our interests to support them any way we can. It is not just about improving salaries-but T and Cs and an end to this bogus Zero Hours self employed nonsense.

Good luck to all Ryanair employees.

skyloone

26th Oct 2017, 09:31

Yes, definitely worth supporting these folk who put their heads up to support the FR rank and file. It’s in all our interests. My understanding is that under EU law it’s illegal to penalise anyone for representing their fellow employees. Ryanair have been asked by letter to give such assurances but have declined to do so. Is this an example of FR putting two fingers up to the law and just saying “sue us if you can, we’ve got a bigger cheque book” ?

Airone2977

26th Oct 2017, 11:59

Spotted on LastestPilotJobs.com, seems desperate or genuine ?
https://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/9058.html

jonesyinthesky

26th Oct 2017, 12:43

Interestingly, people getting offered jobs at the moment are getting their base of choice!

this is true, i spoke to one of their recruiters, alebit on linkedin, the infamous Darren Kinsella, but he was offering me a UK base, either EDI, EMA or STN on a perm local UK Contract, apparently the salary £22k increases in STN will apply to new joiners in other UK bases too, he said the only course dates they had at the moment were in Jan as there are a lot of new joiners coming from Brazil ?, not sure how they are hiring them unless they have EU passports which i'm guessing they could, Monarch and Air Berlin before Christmas. I was only phishing for info as my family home is in Milton Keynes but no chance of Luton Base and BHX full.

wisecaptain

26th Oct 2017, 14:45

So here goes more of the divide and conquer technique.
Pilots joining on 01st November will be paid +23% more = approx £2000pcm more........ than faithful ,hard working professional currently online captains.:ouch:
Wow , thats going to be very unpopular and will certainly divide.
Joining at a time when the 'faithful' are hoping to improve employer-employee relations and in particular terms and conditions really puts the cat among the pigeons.
So joining in Nov and dividing the faithful would then be rewarded with a possible new contract obtained by the ERC with improved terms/cond? or would they be stuck on the joining contract?:=
I guess it is hoped that when new joiners are seen to be earning £2k/pcm more the rest will fall into line eventually.So they will hold out and see how long that takes by taking a hard line and refusal to negotiate.:{
Good luck chaps , it may get messy soon.

nick14

26th Oct 2017, 15:18

Bear in mind as well chaps that the pay increase is not basic pay. It’s £10k on basic and a 12k bonus which isn’t in the contract and is conditional.

I’m based in the midlands and know for a fact BHX is not full as there are at least 3 skippers leaving and they were short anyway!

Divide and conquer in full swing, some incredible lies being banded around!!

Can737

26th Oct 2017, 15:19

No one said it was going to be beautiful, Ryanair management have years of practice of divide and conquer, it is a very functional engine. I am sure EERC have some surprises for them coming.

UAV689

26th Oct 2017, 15:40

Spotted on LastestPilotJobs.com, seems desperate or genuine ?
https://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/9058.html

At least in this advert it says minimal overnights! Not the usual no unplanned over nights...I would say 1 hr notice for 3 days in arse end of Poland is unplanned overnight...someone probably sued them for mis-selling!

wisecaptain

26th Oct 2017, 15:49

Gunning for F/O's to join too
FAO Jet2.com and Norwegian Pilots!!-Latest Pilot Jobs-Latest Pilot Jobs (http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/9058.html)

I may be wrong here but I think the advert for RYR capt I saw posted on pprune recently is not correct.
RYR were stating Jet2 pay as £92k basic
+ £9.5k flt pay
+ £9.2k pension
Total = £108.7k

However I have been told that J2 have another pay rise due in April 2018 taking the basic pay to £99.650 so therefore:
+ £9.5k
+ £9.965k
Total = £119.115

I make that only 12% more NOT 23% by April 2018 with the new RYR figures they advertise:suspect:.
Already it doesnt look so good especially considering that its due for renegotiation in 2020 and £12k is only a bonus which is vulnerable.
Especially as J2 are contracted at 600hrs and have an easy off-season and J2 pay for uniform+licence+parking etc.

Chesty Morgan

26th Oct 2017, 17:36

Contracted at 600hrs?! I wish.

Can737

26th Oct 2017, 18:01

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1026/915496-ryanair/

...The survey also asks whether pilots employed on agency contracts would back a group legal action to test the legality of their employment structures, and to establish better rights as employees.

BALPA General Secretary Brian Strutton said Ryanair was unique in the complexity of its employment structures, and his organisation was issuing the survey at the request of Ryanair pilots, who have until 6 November to respond to it.

He said they were also examining a potential legal challenge to Ryanair's employment practices, similar to that mounted recently by Uber drivers.

In a response, Ryanair rejected the BALPA allegations about its "complex employment structures" as false.

It said a majority of Ryanair pilots in 2017 are direct employees, and a minority are contractors. :} ....

....

According to information seen by RTÉ, pilots at Madrid, Stansted, Glasgow, Pescara and Naples decided to reject the deal which could have seen increases of up to €22,000.

Bases where pilots voted to accept the management proposals and the conditions attached to them were Belfast, Gdansk, Prestwick, and Lamezia, though Ryanair has previously stated that it has done pay deals with at least 10 bases....

GScapture

26th Oct 2017, 18:58

It is not about the money and nobody gives a :mad: how much they offer

They just don’t get it. Words and promises in job adverts are useless. It will be interesting to see the next actions coming up and the inevitable strike of course.

RAT 5

26th Oct 2017, 20:24

Pilots joining on 01st November will be paid +23% more = approx £2000pcm more........ than faithful ,hard working professional currently online captains.

I was a victim of this scenario some years ago. I had a direct contract, a colleague had exactly th see eroded contract at the same base. He received, unwritten, extra benefits and expenses. Under EU law I was considered to be treated 'less favourably'. Employed on the same contract to perform the same duties, but for different recompense. Illegal.

Direct Bondi

26th Oct 2017, 21:12

The survey also asks whether pilots employed on agency contracts would back a group legal action to test the legality of their employment structures, and to establish better rights as employees.The “employment relationship” has been legally tested many times in the EU:

“United Kingdom – A classic test for the existence of an employment relationship involves an assessment of the extent to which the person engaging the worker exercises, or has the right to exercise, control over the worker (see Ready Mixed Concrete (South East) Ltd v. Minister of Pensions and National Insurance [1968] 2QB 497, MacKenna J at p.515; Nethermere (St.Neots) Ltd v. Gardiner [1984] ICR 612, Stephenson LJ, p.623). The changing nature of control in many employment relationships, from ‘how to’ to ‘what to’ (see Viscount Simmonds in Mersey Docks & Harbour Board v. Coggins & Griffiths Ltd [1947] AC 1,12), has blurred the distinction between the extent of control exercised in employment and self employment relationships, and thus diminished the role of the control test in distinguishing between the two. However, it still plays an important role, and in the 1995 Court of Appeal case of Lane v. Shire Roofing ([1995] IRLR 493, Henry LJ indicated (at 495) that the existence of an employment relationship is determined by the answers to the following questions: ‘who lays down what is to be done, the way in which it is to be done, the means by which it is to be done and the time when it is done?” (Page 40) –

Regulating the Employment Relationship in Europe- Link:

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---ed_dialogue/---dialogue/documents/publication/wcms_209280.pdf

Difficult to understand why Norwegian’s pilots pay union dues for representation to a service provider agency when the Norwegian airline is their “real employer”. Norwegian's US based LH cabin crew challenged their status and won a legal ruling the airline is their employer. Ryanair pilots can do the same - but will they?

McBruce

26th Oct 2017, 22:51

It said a majority of Ryanair pilots in 2017 are direct employees, and a minority are contractors.

Ahhh the usual FR spin. The key 'word' being 2017.

vikingivesterled

26th Oct 2017, 23:28

[I]I was a victim of this scenario some years ago. I had a direct contract, a colleague had exactly th see eroded contract at the same base. He received, unwritten, extra benefits and expenses. Under EU law I was considered to be treated 'less favourably'. Employed on the same contract to perform the same duties, but for different recompense. Illegal.

To employ 2 people doing the same job but on different pay is not illegal, unless the difference can be proved to be discriminatory and based on sample sex, race, age, religion a.s.o.

It is quite the opposite than same pay in most jobs. People are paid differently often based on educational background, experience, circumstances, preferences and how good they are at their job. Unless the workplace is very heavily unionised, where pay often end up as a lowest common denominator and differences becomes based on non-personal qualities like how long you've been with the company. Good for some that feel week, are sick a lot, old, or want to prioritise extracurricular activities. Not so advantageous for the young of good health that are forward, organized and ambitious.

If your plan is to work as a donkey for a few years to get up and above gaining quick promotions, then the union is not your friend. If you want to wait years while other and in your mind less motivated colleagues becomes fo / captain / training captain / base captain based only on length of service and the date they joined, and you want to stay with the same company and type untill your retirement, then the story might be different. But remember even then you are depending on the company thriving. A quick back of the hand calculation might say that the company can afford your groups rise, but what about the 12000 others that will also want a piece of the cake.

wisecaptain

27th Oct 2017, 00:46

'It said that Ryanair pilots wishing to discuss or improve their pay or conditions can do so at any time using the established collective bargaining process through individual base ERCs'.

My understanding of the message from RYR to its pilots is as follows:

We won’t meet any union group, because we have a
long established collective bargaining structure at
each base which has been in place for 25 years. You
may recall that the Pilot Unions challenged our Base
ERC structure back in 2007 and failed. The Supreme
Court ruled that the long-established ERC structure
was an acceptable and lawful forum for Ryanair Pilots
to collectively negotiate with the airline.

Where is the negotiation?
Some terms have been placed in front of the ERC which had no input from the ERC's ,nil ,nada ......other than reading them I suppose.

'These agreements can only be changed by
agreement between Ryanair and your base ERC’s.
There is no other mechanism'.

'We will not enter into writing, or meetings,
with competitor airline pilots/unions, or whatever
they call themselves this week (RPG/REPA/EERC??)
whose sole aim is to prevent you from accessing a big
pay increase next month, through the existing ERC
structure'.

'We also welcome a considerable inflow of pilots
from Monarch, Air Berlin and Alitalia, all of whom
are in bankruptcy, and they will be joining Ryanair on
these significantly higher salaries at your bases from
November onwards'

'If there is no agreement at your base to vary
the existing base agreements, then we will still offer
these improved pay and conditions to all new direct
entry recruits from 1 Nov as we intend to make Ryanair
pilots the best paid B737 operators in the LoCo sector
in Europe'.

'The only way to ensure that your base shares
in this upside – from November – is to support your
ERC’s reaching agreement over the next 3 weeks. If
this doesn’t happen then these pay increases may be
delayed until December, or next year, or not delivered
at all'.

'If Pilots continue to be misled by the false
promises of Unions/REPA/RPG/EERC then you will
delay or miss out on these big pay increases next
month, and you will simply remain on your existing
base agreement until they expire between 2020 and
2022'
:mad:, the above diatribe is the most severely threatening letter from an employer I have ever read.
It boggles the mind that they can be so blunt , its not even thinly veiled.
No wonder the RYR pilots are trying to bring the company to the table for discussion:D

RAT 5

27th Oct 2017, 07:59

Viking: Not so. I was a captain in a non-seniority airline. 2 captains employed at the same base, in the same year, (I the more experienced in total but both of us new on type), our contracts were copy/paste documents. Due to a special handshake deal done under the table the other guy received unjustified expenses to cover costs incurred by both of us that I had to pay myself. The company secretary identified my claim as 'employed equally but being treated less favourably'. The use of discrimination was not applicable and would have been inappropriate anyway. Under employment law it was 'less favourable'. We were 2 individuals who were totally replaceable and mirror images. I claimed and won.

Can737

27th Oct 2017, 21:17

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-aviation-safety/eu-parliament-pushes-for-greater-scrutiny-of-airline-working-practices-idUKKBN1CW2BC

GScapture

27th Oct 2017, 21:36

Rated De

28th Oct 2017, 07:13

You get what you negotiate.

His revenue isn't hurt sufficiently.

B scales A+ scales or what ever...

To IR/HR as they are a hammer every problem therefore a nail...

RAT 5

28th Oct 2017, 08:18

The report from UK Reuters about EASA conducting an investigation into zero-hour contracts & safety aspects is nonsense. If pilots allow that to be the remit they have shot themselves in the foot. EASA will not find any correlation between the two. The zero-hour construction is one issue; the so-called self-employed is completely another. One might have safety issues, doubtful, the other is a legal question of true status. The two issues are not apples & apples. The priority is to sort out the self-employed issue. Once that is done the zero-hour issue will be swept up as well. ECA needs to change the focus of EASA and not allow AEA to control the target of the investigation. They know the answer before the process and then can claim they've done due diligence and proved all is OK.

framer

28th Oct 2017, 10:04

I think Rat is onto it there.

BluSdUp

28th Oct 2017, 10:56

Another interesting week.

A great Thanks to our American supporters.

Pilots of the world Unite! The time is now!

Can737

29th Oct 2017, 06:31

A French article is saying 110 pilots left this week Ryanair for greener pastures. More informations anyone?

TheMightyAtom

29th Oct 2017, 08:08

I know atleast 4 and I don't know that many of the 4000 pilots. These are people who handed in their notice just before everything kicked off. It will be interesting to see how many go over the coming few months.

aox

29th Oct 2017, 11:35

Another interesting week.

A great Thanks to our American supporters.

Pilots of the world Unite! The time is now!

I'm going to take a gamble with comment that may be seen as diverging off-topic.

As I said to a colleague years ago, solidarity is sometimes a bit less than you expect.

How did you know about that, he asked, realising what I was referring back to, which I'd told some of them a few weeks earlier.

One of the great strikes of the Thatcher era, about crushing the power of the unions according to some, or scabs crossing picket lines according to others, was broken by the employer signing a closed-shop deal with a different union.

RHINO

29th Oct 2017, 12:34

It is interesting reading the first few pages of this thread. You get a clear picture of the Company and it's antics. Divide and rule, smoke and mirrors and other thoughts come to mind. How quickly Weather, ATC strikes etc changed to pilot holidays when the wheels publicly came off.

It seems simple to me.

Ryanair either pay more than the competition with no gimmicks or the exodus continues.

I am betting that next summer aircraft will be parked.

BluSdUp

29th Oct 2017, 12:47

You are on!
Not a betting man, but the question is how many.
Unless a dramatically better , water proof , deal is on.
Here is my 2 cents,,,

If I was in the wetlease business I would crew up, HEY, wait were did they all go! ARGHH

Reversethrustset

29th Oct 2017, 17:28

If they really want to attract a few more pilots then they've surely got to start advertising strongly for direct entry captains NON type rated & lower the requirements slightly, oh and pay for the type rating with a bond. Will this ever happen? I guess it depends how desperate they get.

RHINO

29th Oct 2017, 17:37

Interestingly you don't have to pay for the TR course if Non TR DEC. You are bonded though.

Anyway the Brazilians are on their way!:ok:

beachbumflyer

29th Oct 2017, 18:31

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-28/ryanair-tells-pilots-it-s-making-progress-easing-pilot-shortage

Skipname

29th Oct 2017, 22:35

I think the memo they quote in the article is fake, especially coming from the Ryanair management themselves. They are trying to use it to scare the pilots into accepting the deal they were given.

Monarch operated Airbus aircraft and Virgin Airways and Aer Lingus opened fast track entry for the Monarch pilots. There are also other operators with an Airbus fleet with much better T&C than Ryanair. Why would they go to Ryanair? I just don't see it

RHINO

29th Oct 2017, 22:49

Yep it is fake news. Monarch pilots are but a handful.

RobsonCanolo

30th Oct 2017, 05:13

Yeah lot's of smoke and mirrors thinking about the Bloomberg piece there earlier, what is the net additions or draw when it comes to total numbers also that's more relevant but missing ? Again hope people see through things for what they really are, chasing a one time pay increase considering the ERC then historically have not been able to deliver anything except legality issues in Germany and the UK for individuals, a ten year payfreeze and then perhaps not actively but at least passively ensured the irish accountant scheme with kickbacks for others. So there is a need to change track and there is opportunity for it now.

Big cred to Imelda Comer !

RAFAT

30th Oct 2017, 06:02

It's okay saying that it's fake news, but that's the kind of article that's being read by Joe Public.........and they probably believe it! So we (as a pilot body) end up once again being the bad guys for turning down £150k a year!

How they can say they're engaging with their pilots but yet continue to release anti-pilot spin like that to the media is beyond me!

RAT 5

30th Oct 2017, 08:07

If RYR management can chat to a reporter and get them to publish their clap-trap, why can't pilots chat to a reporter and get them to publish the pilots' side of the story. Waste of time sitting back and whinging that the truth is being swamped by fake news and not responding. This nonsense from Bloomberg, and shame on them, for reporting that pilots want a rise from €64,000 to €150,000. That s just too sensational for sensible comment and so utterly incompetent & incendiary for them to have printed it without fact checking. The public are being led to believe that their precious £9.99 tickets will soar if the greedy pilots get their way. Come on guys, fight back. It has been the way for decades that pilots' PR has been 2nd division compared to management lobbying. Get the truth out there or forever wallow in the poo.

fireflybob

30th Oct 2017, 08:26

I could not agree more.

RHINO

30th Oct 2017, 10:33

Ditto to the above!

Oh and they are back to their old tricks...offering one base at interview and a different one appearing on the contract...

jetsetter10

30th Oct 2017, 10:55

I was lucky enough to only be delayed for my last Ryanair flight, but I still can't believe how bad their planning was. The way they treat flyers is unacceptable.

Rated De

30th Oct 2017, 11:53

If RYR management can chat to a reporter and get them to publish their clap-trap, why can't pilots chat to a reporter and get them to publish the pilots' side of the story.

Long time ago allegedly a certain spouse of a certain executive at a certain airline was involved in an altercation with a person of the other gender at a function. The conduct was drunken, aggressive and scared the victim.

No charges were ever laid, the story passed over in the print media as a mere 'small discussion'. The editor was afforded first class travel as 'guests' of the said airline.

Unfortunately until pilots can provide such 'coincidental upside' there is little prospect of the 'other side' ever being told..

RAFAT

30th Oct 2017, 15:02

I echo RAT 5's comment above, well-said.

skyloone

30th Oct 2017, 17:26

Could be interesting to watch....

KEYC - SHAREHOLDER ALERT: Pomerantz Law Firm Investigates Claims On Beh (http://www.keyc.com/story/36704902/shareholder-alert-pomerantz-law-firm-investigates-claims-on-behalf-of-investors-of-ryanair-holdings-plc-ryaay)

GScapture

30th Oct 2017, 20:31

Well, at least Ryanair solved other airlines crewing shortage by being a complete ******** towards every single employee in the company.

And the award of the “Best crew supplier of the year” goes to..

Jokes aside; All the best for the current guys/girls in there and hope the EERC will manage to succeed.

racedo

30th Oct 2017, 21:48

Bottom feeding lawyers desperately seeking someone so they can claim they have a case.

Can737

31st Oct 2017, 00:29

https://www.rte.ie/amp/916338/

....Up to now, Ryanair has insisted on negotiating only with Employee Representative Councils (ERCs) at its 87 individual bases - and has refused to negotiate either with external unions or the pilots' new EERC.

However following a meeting last Thursday, pilots based at Dublin, Cork and Shannon agreed that issues of concern to them needed to be addressed through a collective discussion across bases rather than through individual base ERCs.

In a letter to Chief Executive Michael O'Leary, they state: "For that reason we have been instructed and mandated by pilots in our three bases to direct all further communication on offers from the company through the pilots' European Employee Representative Council."

The letter states that the pilot body is currently preparing a "conditions and pay proposal" which will be sent to the company once completed.

It concludes by saying that the joint EERC will be the "sole and exclusive body" through which their negotiations on their future conditions and pay should be negotiated....

Maxfli

31st Oct 2017, 07:34

Bottom feeding lawyers desperately seeking someone so they can claim they have a case.

I’m not sure if you are specifically referring to Pomerantz LLP or all Law firms as bottom feeders, however this firm would be regarded as a leading securities class action litigation firm that has scored significant victories over BP and Petrobas.

Maybe you regard all firms in the top Legal 500 as bottom feeders.

This will be interesting to follow and particularly interesting if they establish what was known (and by whom) prior to someone selling shares during the summer.

Pilot2/b

31st Oct 2017, 08:41

Share price opening nearly 5% up. The shareholders don't seem put off by recent events.

Killaroo

1st Nov 2017, 04:51

Annual results due out shortly. Probably insiders buying on leaked numbers being good enough.
Maybe even a big Dividend in the pipeline, to pacify disgruntled shareholders.

Journey Man

1st Nov 2017, 04:57

So, where are we at as an industry? Has this all blown over? Has the opportunity to tackle zero-hour contracts and “self employment” gone yet?

Vokes55

2nd Nov 2017, 15:00

The success rate for our command upgrade training programme is 97%.

And I wonder how many of those 97% would've passed a command upgrade course in an airline that didn't lose 48 captains last week. ;)

arketip

2nd Nov 2017, 15:27

Well, if those other companies hired them, it probably means they were up to their standards.

EI_DVM

2nd Nov 2017, 19:22

None the less, 97% is an exceptionally high pass rate for command courses, unheard of in most other airlines I’d imagine. Points to either a well managed, well run training department, or a more lax standard when it comes to being promoted to command.

FlipFlapFlop

2nd Nov 2017, 19:46

Well, if those other companies hired them, it probably means they were up to their standards.

And how many were hired as skippers ?

skyloone

2nd Nov 2017, 21:23

Is it not quite late to be putting on roadshows if these recruits are meant to be for next summer? (Assuming summer)

MOL said only this week they had a couple of thousand waiting to join. Why bother with the roadshow then?

fly4more

3rd Nov 2017, 03:50

737/Non-Type Rated Pilot Roadshow -

Industry-leading, fixed, stable 5/4 roster with minimal overnights.

NEW MANAGEMENT AND NEW OUTLOOK

The only none rated bases being offered from their website are Wroclaw, Katowice & Poznan:D

"Industry leading?" "World class?" My Ar$e !!!

Kelly Hopper

3rd Nov 2017, 06:09

Well I wouldn't argue they are "industry leading."
They have been leading it to the gutter the last 20 years?

Rated De

3rd Nov 2017, 08:16

They have been leading it to the gutter the last 20 years? To aspire to be like them one needs a snorkel...

It is an interesting observation of the modern corporation, whether finance, insurance or aviation, businesses are infested with the refuse of our economic system; HR.

Those aspiring individuals seeking to climb above the other jetsam do their MBA as a badge of entry to the utterly dysfunctional and disconnected corporate hierarchy.

Those dutiful accountants with little to no operational knowledge 'drive business' and are focused intently on telling business what happened yesterday as a business hurtles headlong to a collision tomorrow...

RAT 5

3rd Nov 2017, 08:44

The only none rated bases being offered from their website are Wroclaw, Katowice & Poznan

Could this be connected to Ryanair Sun that is starting up in Poland. There's been no talk about this, but I saw an advert.

anderse

3rd Nov 2017, 10:22

Latest info I heard, Ryanair have only recruited 10-15 pilots in total from AB and Monarch.
Anyone with more detailed info?

RHINO

3rd Nov 2017, 10:53

I know of 5 from Monarch - all type rated

Can737

3rd Nov 2017, 12:08

Ryanair is probably the temporary plan B, as soon as they find better they will be gone.

Vokes55

3rd Nov 2017, 12:47

"Stable 5/4 roster"

Which will be the first to go when they realise they don't have enough crew to fly the Summer schedule. Already in the pipeline according to some.

Vokes55

3rd Nov 2017, 18:26

Not sure what airline you joined, NP, but I don't know anybody who regretted leaving Ryanair. Some people miss certain elements, but none would ever return. Horses for courses of course, but the grass certainly can be greener, you just need to pick the right field.

FRogge

3rd Nov 2017, 20:17

To be honest, I don’t understand the fuss about the 5/4 roster. I think a random roster is equally good or maybe even better when you get to bid for your preferred days off. In the end it’s the amount of days off/month that makes a difference. If your doing 6/2, you’ve signed a ****ty contract with not enough days off per month.

Callsign Kilo

3rd Nov 2017, 22:43

Left some time ago. Miss very little about it. Speaking to former colleagues who are still there reaffirms why I don’t. And the 5/4 roster is only of any true value if you are based where you want to be.

The jumpseating, waiting around airports for connecting commutes for hours on end, the non existent leave & base transfer system when I was there. Truly unrivalled.

RAT 5

3rd Nov 2017, 22:55

In the end it’s the amount of days off/month that makes a difference.

It is also the particular days off. 10-12 days off when they are not the correct ones is not a lot of use. When you hear stories of guys on fixed rosters not being able to get the odd day off for something of family importance then it might not be the best place to work.

Maxfli

3rd Nov 2017, 23:00

I wonder if this is wholly accurate.........

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1103/917332-ryanair/

It could be kosher if 1 months notice in advance is given......

Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997, Section 20 (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/section/20/enacted/en/html#sec20)

RobsonCanolo

4th Nov 2017, 04:39

Left some time ago as well and don't miss it. Too many issues, some worse than others like taxes and smaller ones but that get you a bit upset at times reading memos that make you think they are working for some kind of corporate version of Northkorea with propaganda and spin etc.

crispy banana

4th Nov 2017, 13:32

Toruk Macto

4th Nov 2017, 13:57

What’s happened to MOL ? Gone very quite . Thought he had it covered ?

jeehaa

4th Nov 2017, 14:21

That's damage control and to prevent further embarrasment. The communications department now answers on his behalf that they don't respond to 'rumours or speculation', 'lies spread by competing companies and trade unions' and so on.

RAT 5

4th Nov 2017, 15:28

skyloone

4th Nov 2017, 15:35

Chatting to a few FR guys has confirmed that leave is being allocated to their standard rest days without any notice, request or explanation. The view seems to be that they can now claim all leave was allocated. If they give the guys days off the roster cannot be covered. The question is whether those allocated December as their month off start seeing that leave unilaterally re-assigned to November and find Dec holiday plans up in smoke.... sounds like it’s “always getting better”. The mind boggles, pilots are leaving because they’re not happy, so they give them further reason to be upset. Perhaps Ryanair’s calculation is it’s better to shaft your staff and face the consequences later than publicly face up to more un-crewed flights?

Vokes55

4th Nov 2017, 15:59

If they can't cover the December roster, which has already been reduced with the previous cancellations, they are quite frankly screwed for next summer. The walls are crumbling.

RAT 5

4th Nov 2017, 16:00

I once worked for an outfit where we had more than the legal minimum days off per month. The normal days off allocation was not in any contract, it was just the accepted norm. Guess what, when demand became greater than supply the normal days off were reduced to legal minimum. No contract, no union. The further insult was when our 4 day stop over in Africa became 2 'duty/rest days' & 2 days off. Usually, after a weeks duty away from home we'd have 3-4 days off back home to transition back to European flying. As there was no jet lag involved we found ourselves back on roster after 2 days back home. Lots of grumbling, but nothing to be done. Morale was in the toilet. Wedges often have thin ends. Beware.

Maxfli

4th Nov 2017, 18:05

Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997, Section 20

This link mentions holiday pay. We are told that the 'contractors' are forced to take a month off, unpaid, and often not of their choosing. Given that an employee is entitled to a months holiday pay based upon an average of a month's income, I would have thought this would be sufficient incentive for contractors to establish once 7 for all their true status. Not to mention all the other worker's right, including sick day.

The contractors find themselves as both the employer and employee in their employment equation. I don’t think this has happened by chance.

Those employed directly that have been unilaterally allotted Annual Leave days without 30 days notice are entitled to have the days returned to them as set out by the Act.

Killaroo

6th Nov 2017, 01:42

This practice is common in the industry outside the civilised West where workers have some legal protections.
For instance, Hong Kong Airlines currently contracts 28 days AL to pilots. If you request three or four days AL in a month they will roster you for a longhaul flight finishing the day before your requested Leave, and bingo, the three or four days ‘rest and recovery’ you earned is now shown as AL. In effect the employee pilot subsidises the airlines AL budget. Daylight robbery. Perfectly legal.

And no such thing as ‘earned weekends’ on AL either.
Office staff work Monday to Friday, and if they take 5 days AL they automatically get the Sat/Sun off as well (and they get to sleep in their own beds every night the rest of the time).
Meanwhile aircrew, who’s lives are constantly disrupted by 24/7 rostering, are deprived of the Sat/Sun attached to AL (no such thing as ‘the weekend’ for aircrew), thus being effectively discriminated against compared to the Admins (who may, coincidentally, write those rosters).

Rated De

6th Nov 2017, 02:53

Meanwhile aircrew, who’s lives are constantly disrupted by 24/7 rostering, are deprived of the Sat/Sun attached to AL (no such thing as ‘the weekend’ for aircrew), thus being effectively discriminated against compared to the Admins (who may, coincidentally, write those rosters). The reality is that any business in the western world is disconnected from its operational interface. MBA programs the world over preach that it matters little what the business actually does, lower unit cost by manipulation, outsourcing and even contract is the 'conventional wisdom'.

HR is the 'industry' feeding from this structure, designing rosters a small part of their vocation; they spend every waking hour circumventing contracts, creating conflict and generating adversity. It is this way they wedge themselves into remedies, thus ensuring their own survival..

Have seen it in a few corporations in my time..Whilst Mr O'Leary and his business model has plumbed new lows, they are not alone in their endeavours!

SR71

6th Nov 2017, 08:24

The MBA's aren't that smart though are they, because they only have to look at SWA to realise "there is another way".

But the problem is, when you don't buy into or believe in the business and consider it merely a stepping stone to "greater things", you can trash it during your tenure, move on, and are insulated from the ramifications or consequences....

Flocks

6th Nov 2017, 09:46

Rated De

6th Nov 2017, 09:47

The MBA is nothing more than cookie cutter.
Horizon Air also among the 'smartest guys in the room' in a great self inflicted upper cut...

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/horizon-air-cutting-hundreds-of-flights-this-summer-due-to-pilot-shortage/

Push the unit cost of labour towards zero, divide and conquer on the way...Pure genius! Only problem for these morons is as labour unit cost approaches the zero bound, revenue intercepts at zero too! Clearly though O'Leary is the grand wizard in aviation

You sir are absolutely correct.

SWA have been only doing it consistently for decades and I might add Rob Fyfe did a pretty good job of treating people with respect at Air New Zealand

Killaroo

7th Nov 2017, 07:10

About AL, each airline do their own stuff. If pilots would not accept this :mad: they would not do it ...
A friend of mine in Austria, if ask 6 days holiday, he will have days on then 5days holidays then days on, I was choked when he told me that.

In my airline if I ask 5 days holiday, I m sure to have 2 days off 5 days holiday 2 days off.

An other friend of mine in France, if he ask at least 3 days holiday, he ll have 3 days off 3 days holiday 3 days off.

The basic should be at least like my airline.

This is why an effective Union is necessary. Unscrupulous employers will always exploit Terms & Conditions if allowed.

In the current climate, pilots need to start being more picky, and instead of just looking at bottom lines (pay and promotions) when choosing a job, have a closer look at all the underhand ways they rip you off in AL, Days Off, Staff Travel, Duty Travel, Med and Lic Cover etc. In the excitement of getting a new job these things are glossed over. But once you’re online they are the things that will constantly piss you off and make you hate the place.

BluSdUp

7th Nov 2017, 08:18

Annual leave for employees, not contractors, on days off . Did not believe it until I saw it! Fantastic!
Floated out and DH on day off without being asked , all the old tricks.
But now with a friendly smile.
No pay increase in sight for anyone.
Pilots walking out, voting with the feet , as that is the ONLY way they can VOTE!
1000 new pilots hired since January, seriously Dude! 999 of them Cadets.

Its wetlease time this summer.

Rated De

7th Nov 2017, 09:12

Pilots walking out, voting with the feet , as that is the ONLY way they can VOTE!
1000 new pilots hired since January, seriously Dude! 999 of them Cadets.

Pilots own the endorsements and the hours...

It is so unnecessary that employees that by their nature are long term and not readily transferable are considered something to be exploited for their lack of movement, rather than savoured as valuable long term assets.

There are companies that understand the strategic asset that pilots are to an airline. In times to come, businesses will return to a more accommodating (partner) approach with their employees, but with huge investments in adversarial models, to a hammer every problem is a nail.

Ryanair isn't hurting enough yet.

directmisbi

7th Nov 2017, 09:29

It is indeed the “same old, same old” when people accept to be sent out of base and DH’ed somewhere on their days off! Dont answer your phone, and if you do, tell them to foxtrot oscar.

doniedarko

7th Nov 2017, 09:46

Did you ever consider that RYR might be making things worse for a reason.? Maybe the cancellation of leave / issued leave on days off is all part of a plan. Make the environment as toxic as possible for the next few weeks until the arrival of the ' Messiah' (PB) from Malaysian. He arrives and with a wave of his arm instantly makes some of the nasty things go away ....." and if you'll just trust me and sign the agreement ...." Beware the wolf in sheep's clothing ....

TheMightyAtom

7th Nov 2017, 10:25

Good plan, except that PB is a wolf in :mad: clothing.

Can737

7th Nov 2017, 22:44

Hey Ryanair, how are the rosters looking? You can't fire 59 captains at a time and replace them with 999 cadets.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1107/918264-pilots-tell-ryanair-they-want-to-negotiate-collectively/

RAT 5

8th Nov 2017, 08:24

Ryanair said it was "inundated" with applications from pilot union members in Monarch, Air Berli,n and many other facing redundancy or pay cuts because of the failure of those pilot unions,

From the rte news article. Is RYR saying that the unions were responsible in some way for the demise of Monarch & Air Berlin? Wow!

Cows getting bigger

8th Nov 2017, 20:53

I was sat on the apron at Faro mid-morning today idly chatting with the handling agent about the 5 Ryanair 737s parked on the line. She told me that their whole morning 'shift' had been binned a few days back and an airport that used to have 30 Ryanair movements a day was now handling 11. It was certainly unusual seeing 5 aircraft with doors closed and nothing going on.

Vokes55

9th Nov 2017, 10:13

Saw four parked up going nowhere in Tenerife on Tuesday lunchtime too. Winter is peak season for the Canary Islands from most of Europe, provided you have the pilots to operate them of course.

Runcorn Bridge

9th Nov 2017, 10:20

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t FR park planes up in the winter in places where parking is cheaper? Could this not be another reason why you are seeing planes at those places?

Not an FR pilot, so I am speculating.

Cows getting bigger

9th Nov 2017, 12:53

Six this morning. They appear to have binned the entire morning schedule, kicking off about lunchtime.

skyflyer737

10th Nov 2017, 08:45

Parking planes in winter in FAO and TFS is standard practice. I was in both places several times over the last few winters and they've always parked a few there. They rotate them through those places as they are cheaper to park them there than elsewhere.

7574ever

10th Nov 2017, 08:54

From personal experience, last year there were no airplanes parked in TFS whatsoever. On the contrary, extra planes were brought in to cover the extra flights for the winter.

skyflyer737

10th Nov 2017, 11:26

Ok - fair enough but two winters ago I was there for a couple of weeks out of base and there were at least two sitting towards the westerly end of the apron unused. I know because we ended up using one after going tech.

Faro has in the past had at least 4 parked up on the easterly side of the apron.

Cows getting bigger

12th Nov 2017, 06:33

This isn't 'parked-up' aircraft. These aircraft are flying, after lunchtime. Call me a bluff-old-traditionalist, but giving an airframe maybe two sectors a day doesn't make (Ryanair) economic sense.

GScapture

12th Nov 2017, 08:05

The Real Story Behind The Ryanair Cancellations - People Before Profit (http://www.pbp.ie/the_real_story_behind_the_ryanair_cancellations)

flyhigh85

15th Nov 2017, 14:01

IAA is rotten and in bed with Ryanair. No wonder so many airlines want to have an Irish AOC... There should be consequences!

Podcast

15th Nov 2017, 16:05

not surprising.
Hope Europe will punish this country. :yuk:

skyloone

15th Nov 2017, 23:14

Well, well...... not short of pilots. Why did I just speak to an FR pilot today who had an email from his agency asking if he’d like to give up his month off next year. Upon enquiry as to the details of such offer he was told that no it wasn’t a reallocation of the leave.... it was giving it up! So it seems FR are already asking pilots to forgo some of their leave next year.
They must be truly stuffed or perhaps this is just another benefit dressed up as offering flexibility .

Pilot2/b

16th Nov 2017, 06:06

Giving up your month off is surely illegal, if you done this you'd be left with 10days annual leave for the year! Way below the 28days legal requirement.
It's a shame as I'm sure a select few will actually do this.....

Retired DC9 driver

16th Nov 2017, 09:36

Ryan Air back in the news, New York Times piece,

Jet Pilot Might Not Seem Like a ‘Gig,’ but at Ryanair, It Is

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/business/ryanair-pilots.html?

skyloone

18th Nov 2017, 20:33

I have no sight of actual numbers but it just seen a screenshot that claims FR have in fact grounded 85 ac and are short significant numbers to cover the upcoming season. Perhaps the reason they’re reportedly already asking folk to give up leave next year?

Airone2977

20th Nov 2017, 11:26

Up to six months delay now between LST and start of LT for the cadet, appears to be lengthening more and more. Poor folks ! :sad:

TheMightyAtom

20th Nov 2017, 12:24

The second the news kicked off with the 'are/aren't they' short of pilots then they kicked into full swing throwing guys through the base training. Over 100 in under 2 weeks! Bear in mind these guys were already waiting for a long time, unpaid and demoralised. But Ryanair don't care - until there is a publicity opportunity to get photographed at a wings ceremony.

The inevitable has happened and now the cadets are delayed at a different stage of training (wait, where are all the LTCs), still unpaid and unloved. But their picture is already on Twitter so nobody is in a rush to sort it out.

Apparently October was a Ryanair record for pilot resignations...

jmvdb22

21st Nov 2017, 08:01

I hear some different stories though, I know a guy who started ground school last january, he has finished line training a while ago already. Also heard about a guy(indirect, so can't confirm its true) who finished TR beginning of this month and also had base training this week.

I hope this is true as I will start my TR next week haha

SMT Member

21st Nov 2017, 08:57

RYR pilots from Swedish bases have organised themselves under the umbrella of the Swedish Pilots Union.

Direct Bondi

21st Nov 2017, 09:26

Pilots & cabin crew need to find out who to whistleblow to within EASA and the UK CAA who actually have a pair of balls and use them! Pilots are under the delusion the aviation regulatory authorities will act in an employment dispute - they will not. Within Europe there may be Excepted Airlines with Special Arrangements. Stop wasting time believing the regulators will be your savior.

The way forward is to join a union and obtain a legal ruling on the employment relationship. Study this International Labour Organization publication and associated conventions (to which most of Europe are signatories):

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---ed_dialogue/---dialogue/documents/publication/wcms_209280.pdf

If I am based outside of Ireland, I don’t give a rat’s ass what the Supreme Court of Ireland ruled or didn’t rule. Wise up.

Airone2977

21st Nov 2017, 14:42

PJN change the status from "hiring a lot" to "massively in need of pilot" on the RYR Page

Rated De

30th Nov 2017, 00:50

Christmas Crisis: 15,000 American Air Flights Without Pilots Over Holidays Due To "Glitch" | Zero Hedge (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-29/christmas-crisis-15000-american-air-flights-without-pilots-over-holidays-due-glitch)

Oh look another 'scheduling glitch' :E

Smooth Airperator

30th Nov 2017, 07:07

From the above People before Profit article:

The IAA is a state agency with a dual mandate. These two mandates are directly in conflict with each other.

1. It is charged with the regulation of safety and security.

2. It also has a for-profit mandate based on charges for inspecting airlines.

Just like they do in Banana republics...

A and C

30th Nov 2017, 07:51

I would put forward another reason for the IAA being the way it is, they are sipmily out of their depth , they have too much work for a small authority , limmited experience outside Ireland and most of the inspectors are ex Ryanair and only see the Ryanair way of doing things.

Only when the IAA move into this century will they becom a component authority capable of managing the number of aircraft on the Irish registry.

This is not a corruption issue it is one of resources and modern aviation experience.

skyloone

3rd Dec 2017, 16:47

Can anyone shed light on the unverified rumours that a few pilots at Ryanair who identified themselves as company council members are being deciplined and one has been summarily dismissed?

Can737

4th Dec 2017, 10:14

https://amp.independent.ie/business/jobs/ryanair-pilots-remain-undaunted-committed-36375655.html

SMT Member

5th Dec 2017, 06:42

Unionisation taking place in Ireland, Sweden, Italy, Spain, Germany and Portugal. When are the UK based pilots going to join the party?

Can737

5th Dec 2017, 17:23

Ryanair pilots in Portugal notify airline they have balloted for strike action. Ryanair says they and their pilots ignore such threats

Here we go.

ExDubai

5th Dec 2017, 17:45

Interesting times ahead...... MoL worst nightmare becomes reality.

Can737

5th Dec 2017, 18:08

Yes, interesting times ahead.

Ryanair pilots in Portugal vote for industrial action
(https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2017/1205/925217-ryanair-portugal/)

FRogge

5th Dec 2017, 20:42

I am really disappointed that UK based pilots and BALPA is not on the list of pilot groups who are standing up against the company. Why is it like this?

gearlever

5th Dec 2017, 20:47

Since Thatcher labour forces went down the hill....

Smooth Airperator

6th Dec 2017, 08:12

One reason for this could be the incredible amount of recruitment and availability of jobs. Are guys just seeing themselves through by hoping they can jump ship soon?

Rated De

6th Dec 2017, 10:07

Since Thatcher labour forces went down the hill.... It was Thatcher with a stroke of political genius that linked forever the organised labour movement to the destruction of the nation. It has been used in many other countries. It wasn't the reckless banker, the polluting and environmentally destructive corporate it was the employee.

The legal remedy of labour removal, effectively the ultimate last resort has in most western economies been watered down. Union themselves lost their way and forgot their charter and those of us not choosing our parents well enough have suffered.

Unsurprisingly GDP per capita fell in most western economies.

With aging populations, globalised capital destroying onshore employment meant progressively the middle class shrunk, its role and wealth diminished it had to borrow to fund lifestyle. Growth is sluggish, debt too high and lower interest rates don't further stimulate like the stupid politicians are told the textbooks say it will

Ironically as politicians of both persuasions scratch their heads looking for answers in the same neo-classical economics, they need only ask Henry Ford how it all fitted together.

'One man's spending is another's income': He raised the wages of his workers to ensure his business had enough customers.

Corporates and government fail to understand this fundamental problem; the profits from our system are concentrated in far too few hands. With huge costs and other barrier's to entry aviation is no longer a rewarding return for an investment of time and money. In an Orwellian nightmare like that overseen by O'Leary is it really any surprise that there are now too few pilots and those that are left want nothing to do with Ryan air?

gearlever

6th Dec 2017, 10:36

Rated De

Spot on, you nailed it.:ok:

Can737

6th Dec 2017, 12:44

Italian union announces 4-hour strike of Ryanair pilots for 15 December (http://www.thejournal.ie/ryanair-strike-3734931-Dec2017/)

ya ya..

“We regularly receive threats of industrial action from competitor airline pilot unions from Italy, Portugal and even Aer Lingus pilots occasionally.
Both we and our pilots ignore these letters…

anderse

6th Dec 2017, 16:58

This is the sixth time FIT/CSIL or ANPAC has announced strikes by Ryanair pilots, only to postpone/cancel them later.

Is this true?

Can737

6th Dec 2017, 17:49

Ryanair telling the truth is like saying the pope is worshipping satan.

The google news search today is full of news on Ryanair.

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/dec/06/ryanair-at-risk-from-industrial-action-ahead-of-christmas-schedule?__twitter_impression=true

Ryanair threatens pilots with pay and benefit cuts if they strike (http://www.thejournal.ie/ryanair-strike-pilots-3735349-Dec2017/?utm_source=shortlink)

ExDubai

6th Dec 2017, 18:05

At the end of the day it all depends on how many pilots participate. If they don't do it now, nothing will change. I hope they realize it..... The time for divide and conquer is over.

GScapture

6th Dec 2017, 19:44

Ryanair telling the truth is like saying the pope is worshipping satan

:D

Probably the most accurate post in this topic for a while.

Looking forward to see how it happens on the 15th, sadly UK pilots still seem to be a bit disorganized and divided. Hope they will unionize soon as well.

Boeing 7E7

6th Dec 2017, 20:08

Are you kidding? Muddled Marxist garbage, and mostly factually incorrect. Ironically the Ford quote is espousing free market income growth through the freedom and ability of the consumer to spend (and that includes the bankers rated despises) - Eat into the disposable income of the consumer, (as Corbyn would delight in), and the humble workers income falls (or he loses his job and goes on benefits, which the state no longer has the tax revenues to afford, while rated de also advocates curtailing capital markets ability to adjust, and the states ability to deploy monetary stimulus. Stuff of true horrors. Study Venezuela to see how that plays out.

I would agree that the poor reward for investment in pilot training is drastically limiting supply.

Yawn. Heard this version so many times.

RAFAT

7th Dec 2017, 02:56

.........sadly UK pilots still seem to be a bit disorganized and divided.

Has always been the case and will continue to be so, don't know why. :confused:

Rated De

7th Dec 2017, 05:32

Eat into the disposable income of the consumer, (as Corbyn would delight in), and the humble workers income falls (or he loses his job and goes on benefits, which the state no longer has the tax revenues to afford, This is not politics, neoclassical models underpin all economics undergraduate degrees, both sides of politics embraced it with vigour. It is nort confined to either side of the chamber, but it has not translated into higher standards of living for those not of means, or having chosen their parents well.

I would simply point you to GDP per capita figures in the western economies, Per capita income is already falling. Welfare spend as a percentage of GDP is increasing. National indebtedness as a share of GDP has grown considerably; the economy cnanot produce enpugh to meet the entitlement models. Globalisation has much to answer for. I would simply say as indigenous industry is lost the tax base declines as does disposable income.

advocates curtailing capital markets ability to adjust, and the states ability to deploy monetary stimulusI don't advocate curtailing capital markets, but rates at 5,000 year lows some eight years into a so called 'recovery' isn't capitalist; Surely the time for neoclassical stimulus has passed? Should interest rates be hovering at near zero? Price discovery does not exist as money cannot be transparently priced. Risk is not correctly modelled. What is the yield on a 10 year Greek bond, about 5.2% for Greece?.... If 'capitalism' was allowed to operate, far more banks even countries would have paid the price for poor 'profit maximising decisions' in the GFC, but the taxpayer footed the bill. How is that capitalist again? Saving the big banks isn't capitalism, it is cronyism. Our 'market' is nowhere near capitalist.

Oh and what Mr Ford said in his 1926 book Today and Tomorrow was:

“The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same, and unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers. One’s own employees ought to be one’s own best customers.”He also said:

“We increased the buying power of our own people, and they increased the buying power of other people, and so on and on.It is this thought of enlarging buying power by paying high wages and selling at low prices that is behind the prosperity of this country.”

The result of the modern imbalance between labour and capital is grubs like Mr O'Leary can peddle employment models that would have made for a class war in the 19th century. It is the demographics generating higher retirement rates than can be replaced with declining birth rates that lead to dwindling supply. Rational choices of those pilots left in the industry 'maximising personal utility' (probably their mental health too) and getting as far away from Ryan Air as they can. Those remaining can choose to withdraw their labour, no small achievement in the modern economic world.

vrb03kt

7th Dec 2017, 07:13

If I were a 'self- employed' contractor I'd be awarding myself a generous Christmas holiday this year, regardless of what the roster said I was doing! You are self-employed after all.

schweizer2

7th Dec 2017, 07:23

It will never happen.
Remember, the Ryan pilots that are "fighting" for better terms are the same pilots who joined Ryan when their previous generation was "fighting" for better terms. It is a viscous circle.

Use Cathay as another example, B scalers joined on worst terms then the A scalers, which threatened the A scalers contract, they didn't care, but now they moan about pilots joining on a C scale or D scale contract and so on.....

If the pilots at Ryan were serious, they'd be declaring strike action already to hit the company hard during the Christmas period, whilst their latest disaster still remains fresh in the public mind.

Pay to fly is a product of the dream to fly, how long until you have a pay to cabin crew scheme come up?

akindofmagic

7th Dec 2017, 09:06

Remember, the Ryan pilots that are "fighting" for better terms are the same pilots who joined Ryan when their previous generation was "fighting" for better terms.

The previous generation didn't "fight". That's the whole point. It is ridiculous blaming new entrants to the "profession" (term used very lightly) for the degradation of terms and conditions as the only people who are in a position to actually do anything about it are those currently in the job.

RAT 5

7th Dec 2017, 09:41

how long until you have a pay to cabin crew scheme come up?

Are you sure it hasn't already, in a non-direct manner?

schweizer2

7th Dec 2017, 09:42

The previous generation didn't "fight". That's the whole point. It is ridiculous blaming new entrants to the "profession" (term used very lightly) for the degradation of terms and conditions as the only people who are in a position to actually do anything about it are those currently in the job.

I wouldn't blame anyone for accepting a job, especially if it is their ticket into the industry, not their fault no one is stopping the company offering them a contract that is inferior to their counterpart.

schweizer2

7th Dec 2017, 09:45

how long until you have a pay to cabin crew scheme come up?

Are you sure it hasn't already, in a non-direct manner?

Sadly, it probably has.

Though if the Irish mob had their way, they'd probably reduce the minimum cabin crew in the cabin and just say the FO will come out during the cruise for the service!

longlayover

7th Dec 2017, 14:34

Are Ryanair, as a Limited Company, allowed to give incorrect response to the market regarding threat of industrial action from its pilots?

Rated De

8th Dec 2017, 06:59

Not listed so am not sure of the exact provisions of the UK Company ( or Irish annexes)

However am aware that to be listed in the UK companies issuing shares must:

Be satisfied that the information given to the exchange is correct complete and not misleading.
If the issuer (company) becomes aware that information does not meet the previous requirement
It should immediately notify the exchange.

So technically they ought be truthful but lack of regulatory oversight is commonplace and therefore not often enforced.

Dualbleed

8th Dec 2017, 17:58

If I were a 'self- employed' contractor I'd be awarding myself a generous Christmas holiday this year, regardless of what the roster said I was doing! You are self-employed after all.

Obviously if you are self employed you decide when to work and Ryanair have no say in the matter. They just hire your service when you are available. Would it be possible to only work Sunday to Thursday. ? As a contractor selling my my service I can’t see why not. If this is not the case I would certainly understand the contract pilots in Ryanair in wanting to leave.

Skornogr4phy

8th Dec 2017, 22:26

Except for the fact that in this case Ryanair have all the bargaining power. If you say I'll only work those days they say, ok then we will hire somebody else for that day and you need not work for us any more.

172_driver

9th Dec 2017, 07:41

Until there is none else to hire. Which seems to be worringly close (for Ryanair) for experienced pilots.

With the recent court ruling in ECJ, and the fact that pilots have created Ryanair councils under the local unions, I think everyone is hoping for the tipping point where bargaining power lies with the pilots. It’ll take a group of pilots who senses the strength of unity and feel they haven’t got too much to loose.

I welcome the proposed strike action in Italy. Just the media attention may get some prospect Ryanair passengers to look for something else on the 15th Dec.