Ryanair Cancelling flights! [Archive] - Page 3

Piltdown Man

27th Sep 2017, 08:28

dd - that is not legally possible as there is no union representation at RYR, by design. But the :mad: who made that post showed complete contempt of his potential future colleagues and those posting on this thread.

But picking up on one of RAT's previous posts - You do have to wonder why RYR's staff leave. Any company that heamorages experienced, valuable staff should really be worrying about how they are managing their operation. It shows their current regime has little value for their staff. If it suits them, they stay, if not they go. I'll suggest the same applies to their passengers and suppliers. The entire operation is little more than a giant favelka built on sand with no investment in its foundation. Only so long as it can generate cash today it has a value and recent events show it has no resilience, a requirement for genuine long term value as well as existence.

Pilot2/b

27th Sep 2017, 08:51

This all seems to be blowing over pretty quick. Normal operation will resume very shortly I fear.

Tommy Gavin

27th Sep 2017, 09:08

His potential future colleagues who have done the exact same thing in the past you mean? You cannot expect sympathy there mate. They have done the exact same thing and used RYR to shortcut their careers. They happily accepted the T&Cs.

Having said that, if they really want to change their working conditions. NOW is the time to act and you have my full support! (For whatever that is worth.) An increase in T&C's in one of Europe's biggest aviation "employer" is good for the whole industry.

And also thumbs up for the cabin crewmembers who are stepping up. Compared to how they are treated the pilots are treated like little princesitas.

IALPA should in my view come out with a statement as RYR is the biggest AOC holder in Ireland. The only association who as openly condemned the practices at RYR is the ECA. Kudo's to them!

MaverickPrime

27th Sep 2017, 11:37

Only so long as it can generate cash today it has a value and recent events show it has no resilience, a requirement for genuine long term value as well as existence.

I tend to agree and it’s only a matter of time before investors figure that out, some already have; one pension fund has already sold €300m worth of shares.

What’s happening at Ryanair will simply not go away, regardless of what the pilots do, as Ryanair have exhausted their supply of experienced pilots who are willing to accept rubbish T&Cs.

Star1101

27th Sep 2017, 11:56

The stock exchange will soon enough read into it.

Airone2977

27th Sep 2017, 11:58

I tend to agree and it’s only a matter of time before investors figure that out, some already have; one pension fund has already sold €300m worth of shares.

What’s happening at Ryanair will simply not go away, regardless of what the pilots do, as Ryanair have exhausted their supply of experienced pilots who are willing to accept rubbish T&Cs.

Exactly, it is only a matter of times. Industrial action takes weeks to prepare.

thez9zon

27th Sep 2017, 12:19

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/27/ryanair-cancel-flights-passengers-stansted-edinburgh

Not going away anytime soon

Super VC-10

27th Sep 2017, 12:21

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/27/ryanair-cancel-flights-passengers-stansted-edinburgh

aox

27th Sep 2017, 12:27

It gets worse: BBC lunchtime TV news says more cancellations, few thousand flights, 30-something routes closed for winter.

Edit: oh, cross-posted with post just above, more detail there

MaverickPrime

27th Sep 2017, 12:31

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/27/ryanair-cancel-flights-passengers-stansted-edinburgh

I see in that article they are still not admitting to the fact it’s a pilot shortage problem, still trying to divert attention and make it seems like it’s an annual leave issue. Any punter with half a brain cell will see through it though, if you haven’t enough staff to cover annual leave; then bottom line is you haven’t enough staff!

littco

27th Sep 2017, 12:34

400,000 booked tickets.

November 2017 to march 2018

Krueger

27th Sep 2017, 12:43

With this new cancellations it looks like the efforts of the pilots and cabin crew is getting noticed. First in the news, then at the stock exchange and finally at the negotiating table. So keep up the good work guys and gals!:)

aox

27th Sep 2017, 12:58

I see in that article they are still not admitting to the fact it’s a pilot shortage problem, still trying to divert attention at make it seems like it’s too do will annual leave. Any punter with have a brain cell will see through it though, if you haven’t enough staff to cover annual leave; then bottom line is you haven’t enough staff!

I was quite surprised last week when on BBC's The One Show, some journalist I've never seen before said this was basically a dispute between pilots and the airline.

That seemed to me to go well beyond over-simplification. Add it to O'Leary's comments about 18 hours not bring hard work and so on, and there seem to be efforts by some to shape opinions of the proportion of the population that tend to be mainly anti-union etc

On the other hand, all of the show's preceding short video clips of cancelled passengers complaining showed them all criticising only the company.

akindofmagic

27th Sep 2017, 13:00

What’s happening at Ryanair will simply not go away, regardless of what the pilots do, as Ryanair have exhausted their supply of experienced pilots who are willing to accept rubbish T&Cs.

My concern is that when the inevitable financial crisis hits (which it will, and soon), Ryanair will once again having all manner of experienced guys and girls battering their door down for a job.

Can737

27th Sep 2017, 13:09

Half a million pax will be affected.

Ryanair extends flight cancellation plans to mid-March (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/ryanair-flight-cancellations-extend-march-customers-michael-oleary-destinations-holidays-travel-a7969846.html?amp)

ROKVIATOR

27th Sep 2017, 13:26

So, as I saw on spanish news, there have been several cancellations due to 25 airplanes being shutdown/replaced until march 2018 or so. Obviusly, they don't say anything at all about pilot shortage or any kind of negotiation within the company.

One thing to be pointed out is that, spanish tv has also re-emited the reportage about ryanair workers, their undercovered bad situation, etc... I'd gladly read news about an enhance on their roasters/salary/overaltreatmen as a result of everything that is happening right now.

GuardianMan

27th Sep 2017, 13:27

Globally Challenged

27th Sep 2017, 13:29

From the Telegraph

A spokesman said: "This slower growth will provide stability to pilot rosters from November to March. We will not need pilots to give up one week of their well-earned annual leave from November onwards."

Quite a change in tone from the Pikey King and his 18 hours a week nonsense.

SMT Member

27th Sep 2017, 13:33

Is this further reduction on top of the normal transition to a less busy winter schedule?

vikingivesterled

27th Sep 2017, 14:31

So the person to fix rostering is the same that made his name working down the baggage handler strike of 98. Who's normal solution is to offer the same contract to everybody whether they are a cabin crew, pilot or manager, only each and every one with a different pay. Wonder if he has even seen the rosteering system or what training it takes to know it's potential.

RAT 5

27th Sep 2017, 15:16

Why is 95% of the media coverage about this whole issue coming from RYR management sources and so little repost & response from the flight crew being reported? Why is there so much alleged mis-information or 'being economical with the truth' 'alternative facts' being reported with no counter/balanced arguments being aired? If IALPA or BALPA have such a sleepy or inept PR department then they are missing an opportunity to help themselves big time. Equally, the media need only do a 'fact check' themselves to ridicule the rubbish (e.g. 18hr weeks and €150,000pa salaries, no zero hour contracts etc.) and then publish the truth. It is amazing how this situation is being played out. The 2% affected pax are screaming and the rest are blind-eyeing it and possibly believing 'the company line'. Perhaps there are some fireworks in the pipeline. I still expect this to carry on until next summer and then it might all unravel.
I found it amusing to read RYR are cancelling the STN EDI/GLA routes for the winter and offering alternative flights (or refunds). If you really want to go to Scotland on business I wonder which alternative flights could be interesting? Let the train take the strain. Door to door it'll be the same and in better comfort. Let easy jet resurrect The Scottish Shuttle from LTN & STN. On the hour every hour alternating LTN/STN. Go for it Orange: back to your roots(routes; it's how you started)

annakm

27th Sep 2017, 15:41

"In addititon, ten days after saying it was preparing to buy the Italian carrier Alitalia, it today announced that it was dropping its bid in order to "eliminate all management distractions"."

Interesting. I thought MOL was looking to absorb as many 'injured' airlines as possible?

Airone2977

27th Sep 2017, 15:47

As the telegraph said, more to follow ...

BehindBlueEyes

27th Sep 2017, 15:59

Didn't he say that Norwegian will probably only last another 4 or 5 months, and certainly not survive the winter?

Are we sure that MOL wasn't referring to his own airline with those words...

Thad Jarvis

27th Sep 2017, 16:13

Ryanair is a long way from being insolvent. Alas because so much of what O'Leary says is pr bilge any truth hidden in his waffles gets lost. He's right about Norwegian. Their balance sheet looks awful but somebody else will go bust first and sooner rather than later.

tubby linton

27th Sep 2017, 19:20

About time passengers stop being exploited.
CAA expedites enforcement action against Ryanair for persistently misleading passengers | UK Civil Aviation Authority (http://www.caa.co.uk/News/CAA-expedites-enforcement-action-against-Ryanair-for-persistently-misleading-passengers/)

Maxfli

27th Sep 2017, 19:52

The market responded well to the announcement of further cancellations.
It’ll all be forgotten by Paddy’s Day.
It’s now or never boys, good luck.

helimutt

27th Sep 2017, 20:05

Hi,

I wrote several of The Guardian's stories about the pilot/crew dispute with Ryanair last week.

A colleague has done an early version of our story about the latest cancellations, affecting 400k passengers.

I'm now looking to add to the story and expand upon it. I'm most interested in whether there could be more cancellations if pilots don't succeed in securing improved terms.

Last week, Ryanair flat out denied there would be any more cancellations and yet here we are.

What to pilots think about this latest development? Have we seen the last of cancelled flights? What else am I missing?

You're missing the correct grammar for a start considering you're a journalist. :E I'm just joking, but you need to take a look at the things Ryanair are doing, what the truth really is, and why the UK CAA would issue a statement today if they didn't think things were being done in, lets say, a slightly underhanded way. You're a journalist aren't you? You have access to the internet?

Callsign Kilo

27th Sep 2017, 20:45

Google should be your friend. Start with 'Ryanair' and maybe add 'Brookfield.' How about 'Ryanair Pilot Group' or 'IALPA' or even 'REPA'

Unfortunately an unprecedented amount of information exists on the web portraying a less than hormoneius relationship between the airline and its pilots.

Util BUS

27th Sep 2017, 21:10

I think a lot of it also has to do with asking the right questions. RYR are experts at PR spin and love to be pedantic as accountants normally are. I suspect they actually believe some of the BS they spout.

Only 100 captains and 160 f/o's leaving RYR? I think not, but maybe those are the ones on the Ryanair contracts, I wonder how many on the storm and brookfield contracts?

Just like when they say they are investing 100 million into xyz airport. They are quoting list price of a new Boeing. I might as well advise how I am investing 30k into my local airport when parking my car there. My car is not worth more than 2k, but if I quote the new list price it always sounds great.

As I said it is all about asking the right questions...

The Old Fat One

27th Sep 2017, 21:31

The CAA seem a little hacked off and they don't seem to mind who knows it.

https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/CAA/Content/News/News_files/2017/Julisz%20Komorek%20Ryanair%20270917.pdf

RYR are experts at PR spin

Bet they are putting in some overtime tonight then.

jeehaa

27th Sep 2017, 21:32

Well spotted Util bus.

Another observation of lies in the press today is the statement of the cancellation of 400.000 passengers and that thát would equate to less than 1 flight per day. Only if those flights would be full (189) that would mean 2116 sectors, or 1058 flight pairs.... over 151 days....

BusyB

27th Sep 2017, 22:03

Further to the CAA taking action I cannot help but feel that this whole action by Ryanair smacks of fraud and mis-selling. If thousands of people are misled into buying tickets to arrange transportation for their holidays/leave and then find they are cancelled surely this is taking money under false pretences?

RobsonCanolo

27th Sep 2017, 22:18

The market responded well to the announcement of further cancellations.
It’ll all be forgotten by Paddy’s Day.
It’s now or never boys, good luck.

Maxfli any thoughts about the sharebuyback, they bought shares over the last weeks again.

"Such purchases under a share buy-back programme usually tend to drive up a company's share price. Ryanair's shares closed 1.2pc higher in Dublin yesterday at €16.94. There's nothing untoward about the share dealing, with a company's brokers - in Ryanair's case, Citigroup and Davy Stockbrokers - typically taking advantage of any share weakness during a buy-back programme to acquire shares for cancellation on behalf of their client. By buying shares in itself now, Ryanair saved approximately €1m compared to if it had bought them before the controversy of recent days."

Airline capitalises on slump by buying back ?12m of its shares - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/airline-capitalises-on-slump-by-buying-back-12m-of-its-shares-36150111.html)

Desk-pilot

28th Sep 2017, 07:21

The big issue here is whether staff at Ryanair will finally make the push to establish a trade union to represent them. My reading of the irish law is that staff are free to join trade unions and automatically win an unfair dismissal case if they are dismissed as a result of joining one. Trade unions (http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/industrial_relations_and_trade_unions/trade_unions.html)

The only way you will ever have any real influence is through a trade union and if you ask me this is the best chance you're ever going to get so use it and join one...

What would be really clever is for those of you who already have job offers outside to openly declare you have joined a union, wait to be sacked and when sacked take Ryanair to a tribunal which you will win for compensation.

You will end up not working your notice
You will end up being paid probably a significant lump sum in compensation for not working
You will tie up Ryanair resources in a time of company crisis
Or he will be forced to accept and recognise your TU membership as legitimate.

TheMightyAtom

28th Sep 2017, 07:31

Cows getting bigger

28th Sep 2017, 07:49

Can someone please enlighten me as to how Ryanair's Ts&Cs differ from other LoCos such as Whizz or Easyjet? I'm not picking a fight, I just think it worthwhile highlighting the different ways airlines treat their staff.

McBruce

28th Sep 2017, 09:06

With RYR being PR kings. The 100 CPTs and 160 FOs leaving RYR employed are probably correct. Then about 300 self employed pilots....

TheMightyAtom

28th Sep 2017, 09:30

IALPA are claiming more than 700 total. This seems fair more accurate from even a brief headcount in any one base.

ericsson16

28th Sep 2017, 09:52

So FR Fly three times a day GLA to STN,can someone else step in and use these slots ie easyjet or are these FR slots to use only?

Gulf Julliet Papa

28th Sep 2017, 10:14

Correct me if I'm wrong but neither GLA or STN have a slot system.

wotan

28th Sep 2017, 11:25

IALPA are claiming more than 700 total. This seems fair more accurate from even a brief headcount in any one base.

They didn’t claim anything they published figure given to the SEC in the states by Ryanair themselves

oversteer

28th Sep 2017, 11:32

I wish it were that easy to be sacked and cash in, but the company line has always been "if you want to waste your money on a union feel free, but we will never recognise them and if legally obliged to talk to them, we will simply twiddle our thumbs and not listen"

Which might work until a significant number of union members back industrial action and strike, leaving a huge shortfall of pilots which MOL couldn’t hope to cover in the short term, no? The CAA and media getting heavy at the same time might force him to revisit that attitude.

English law (not sure on Irish law) protects you from being dismissed on a properly balloted strike

Asrian

28th Sep 2017, 11:34

German news tv-channel n-tv just (1pm GMT+1) reported the last round of flight cancellations. Among them the route Köln-Berlin (Schönefeld) will be cancelled. Which according to n-tv is one of the main used and very popular routes in Germany so that raised some eyebrows!
N-TV also clearly stated that the flight cancellations are caused by a lack of pilots and that pilots at RYR are dissatisfied with their working conditions.
They also quoted a source about a rumor that claims that RYR cancelled Köln-Berlin Schönefeld because they aim for Berlin Tegel and want to change their destination from Berlin Schönefeld to Tegel.

The lack of pilots at RYR due to working conditions are reported in different german news media now because some started to investigate the reasons for the flight cancellations.

aox

28th Sep 2017, 12:17

CAA definitely getting stroppy

Ryanair law breach leaves UK regulator CAA 'furious' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41422571)

This was quite early on the BBC TV lunchtime news. I switched on at 1305 in the middle of the item, so missed a bit (edit: headine repeat at 1320 - Ryanair has been threatened with legal action, for failing to inform customers of their rights); @1333 for persistently misleading customers about their rights). Then Simon Gompertz encouraging people to find out things, and not necessarily be fobbed off with a simple refund if the airline is obliged to rebook people on another carrier.

MaverickPrime

28th Sep 2017, 12:38

IMO the pilot issue won't disappear, industrial action or no industrial action, recession or no recession.

However, the way I see it, Ryanair management is having to fight on too many fronts right now. They have the customers, regulator, pilots and even the investors to appease. They are distracted by their own admission; they will shelve their Alitalia and Air Berlin aspirations.

The management are on the back foot, so yes, now is a great opportunity for the pilots to seek improvements to T&Cs. I'm sure there is plenty of chatter behind the scenes.

scifi

28th Sep 2017, 13:08

After 31 pages of this fiasco on PPrune, I find it amazing that nobody has yet suggested that managerial heads should roll, over this situation that was created by them in the first place.

Maybe it is just a marketing ploy... ' Even bad publicity is still good publicity', and if you are in the know, maybe a good time to sell shares, then buy them back when the market falls.

Market trends can be predictable when you know what to look for.. Before the Channel Tunnel was built, C.T. shares would double in price every time Margaret Thatcher went to talk to the French President, and she went about 3 times in the three years before the construction began...

vikingivesterled

28th Sep 2017, 13:23

I find it amazing that nobody has yet suggested that managerial heads should roll, over this situation that was created by them in the first place.

Moving functions to other chiefs is the Ryanair quick way of rolling heads at the top. At the moment they need more bosses to handle events, not less. Changes will happen on the quiet much later.

TheMightyAtom

28th Sep 2017, 13:47

Heads have begun rolling today, Mick Hickey and John Clear

Airone2977

28th Sep 2017, 14:01

FFS !
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...lled-1.3236895 (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ryanair-reveals-hundreds-more-flights-from-dublin-are-to-be-cancelled-1.3236895)
462 more flights cancelled, what the http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/censored.gif is going on ?

Smooth Airperator

28th Sep 2017, 14:04

Good lord the company is getting a hammering on Facebook.

Hopefully the not so smug :mad: will now realise there's a limit to how much you can cheapen this industry (and use employees to subsidise the cost of travel for the flying public). He and his lackeys have done it to the point of unsustainability by offering cheap flights that simply cannot be flown at cheap cost! Other airline management: Kindly take note!

The AvgasDinosaur

28th Sep 2017, 14:06

I see the CAA are making loud noises about RYR and its (non) handling of cancelled flight compensation!
What happened to the investigation of multiple wx minima busts at Stansted a while back ?
Am I right in thinking RYR has flown into a perfect storm
I) changes to leave year
II) Massive hemorrhaging of crew
III) Closer authority scrutiny of paper rotas against reality, implied dependence on discretionary time, delays with baggage, taxi times, weather etc.
RYR spin machine is concentrating on I) to deflect public and press scrutiny from the other two?
Your time and trouble appreciated.

Airone2977

28th Sep 2017, 14:14

https://twitter.com/search?q=ryanair&src=tyah

TheMightyAtom

28th Sep 2017, 14:20

Hahahahaha. You mean they joined many months ago but were delayed throughout the type rating because Ryanair didn't care. Now they pulled their finger out and got the management pilots out of their offices to train them themselves for some PR!

They're perfectly happy to delay a new guy on zero pay, even when he complains he is under extreme financial pressure and cant afford accomadation. But the moment a media opportunity arises it all systems are go...

Level100

28th Sep 2017, 14:21

I am very happy that CAA is making is (finally) very clear to RYR that they need to meet their obligations with regards to their paying pax as (almost) all the other airlines do.
The "business-model" of RYR thus seem to come to its term.

ROKVIATOR

28th Sep 2017, 14:25

Is this the new " I have enough pilots"?

Sanderr

28th Sep 2017, 15:57

And how many left in the time it took to train them?

GoldwingSpain

28th Sep 2017, 16:06

I have mostly always been happy with ryr when things work out, on time, efficient and cheap. However when things go wrong it goes pear shape so quickly and the attitude of customer service is horrendous.

Friends have booked flights for visit and specifically chose a more expensive airline to ensure it would depart.

If I was booking a flight today I would avoid ryr and pay more.

It’s going to end in tears if they do not sort it out quickly.

aox

28th Sep 2017, 17:11

CAA criticism still the first story on the BBC 6 o'clock news

Journalist quoted some feedback people have had from Ryanair

Someone said on the RyanairCS online chat that, as per the CAA letter, the airline was obliged to put them with another carrier. RyanairCS response: no I'm not.

RAT 5

28th Sep 2017, 17:27

However the Commissioner for Aviation Regulation in the Republic Cathy Mannion maintains maintains that EU regulations about treatment of passengers who have their flights cancelled is “open to interpretation.”
The British regulator (CAA’s) position is that under EU regulations Ryanair is required to use other airlines to bring people home if their flight is cancelled.
However the issue of enforcement is open to interpretation, she told RTÉ’s Today with Sean O’Rourke show. “Our position is that we can encourage them, but we cannot require them to do so,” she said.

What an Irish coincidence.

Ms Mannion said she said she also had drawn Ryanair’s attention to their “care and assistance” obligations. “We want to ensure that customers get the correct information.”
“We just deal with customers’ rights.”

It's pity she doesn't seem as concerned with the 'workers' rights'.

There were comments from Pruners previously suggesting the UK government did not have the jurisdiction to intervene in the employment structures of RYR as it was an Irish based company, even though many workers are British & based in UK. Interesting that the UK Aviation minister Lord Callahan is getting involved.

"Ryanair is also under pressure from Britain’s aviation minister Lord Callanan who contacted chief executive Michael O’Leary after the airline announced a new wave of cancellations.
Lord Callanan said: “I am extremely concerned that Ryanair is cancelling more flights and I have made clear my disappointment about the service many of their customers are receiving."

Well, with that and the UK CAA having it tuppence-worth, about the rights of UK passengers, why not also have a spout about the rights of UK workers. If they have jurisdiction over one group then why not the other?

rifruffian

28th Sep 2017, 18:05

Pilots are lucky people. They have good health, good education and, one way or another.....access to vocational training. What rights do these workers want ?

Mr Angry from Purley

28th Sep 2017, 18:05

Liked the Sky reporter catching out a load of new F/O's with the Pilot Managers outside HQ today - a hasty retreat

Meikleour

28th Sep 2017, 18:05

GuardianMan (http://www.pprune.org/members/471759-guardianman) Here is a "pointer". Next time O'Leary is questioned let him explain the difference between flying hours and the Duty Hours required to achieve them. Let him explain what is counted and more importantly what is NOT counted towards the legal total limits. It may well be that the Duty Hours limits are being breached rather than the actual flying hours? Every interview I have seen of him the interviewer lets him get away with his usual parroted 18 hour a week therefore there can never be fatigue.

EFISchap

28th Sep 2017, 19:56

On the Irish main-evening news today at 6pm. Ryr stocks are DOWN 3.5% today alone. A "Main mover" on the stock market.

No pilot shortage?
So: RYR CANNOT get through the last 6 weeks of summer 2017 due to lack of pilots and the lack of ability / man power to train up cadets, upgrade suitable FO's to captain, upgrade SFIs to TRIs', get base-checks completed... LET ALONE have the training space to give >4,000 pilots their 6-monthly LPC/OPC!!!

So o'LIARy parks a/c and i'm sure will try to defer new a/c deliveries to COVER UP this massive pilot shortage which is now 20-years in the making , and, which is an ordeal of gross neglect, disregard and dismissive attitude and disgusting disrespect towards its front-line critical staff!

And, in 5 weeks time when "summer" ends, mid-term break will be upon us, Halloween break, and the 6 weeks of the Christmas travel rush! - Where will the pilot numbers come from to cover this ? How many more contractors and permanent employee pilots will have departed or will be serving their 3-month notice by then!

Shamrock (Aer Lingus) are about to hire 200 first officers...Any self-respecting FO will do himself and the pilot body a massive favour by pulling out ALL the stops to get into a respectful Airline who sees their pilots and cabin crew as "assets" - not "overpaid underworked peacocks and lazy bus drivers".. Norwegian, WOW, Middle Eastern and Far Eastern carriers will keep taking too on better conditions.

I hope O'LIARy, David OBrien , :mad:Eddie Wilson and the other poisons to aviation are kicked so bloody far out of the airline business they will never get within a thousand miles of an airline again!

THATS MY HOPE & DREAM for this horrific ordeal - if it is to come to an end in favour of a respectful airline industry we all dreamed of being part of one day.

NEVER forget what O'LIARy, David OBrien , :mad:Eddie Wilson did to all those fabulous men and women captains and first officers and cabin crew and engineers who were based in Shannon in 2009 and 2010 who got screamed at, lambasted, and insulted in a Conference Room at Shannon Airport by said managers, and who disgustingly screwed over all the pilots and cabin crew, and engineers.

NEVER forget what happened in Neiderhein also in a similar manner at that same time where captains and first officers alike were told to "Take it or leave it" regarding the NRN base being decimated by Ryanair management for RYR's OWN COMMERCIAL GREED just because Ryanair management did not get what they wanted from the National Governments of the time..
The €20,000-€30,000 pay cuts and base-changes FORCED upon those pilots was abhorrent.

The rot started long before that and has continued and continued since then.

When will it stop - when one way or another O'LIARy, David OBrien , :mad:Eddie Wilson and their ilk - get out of their industry - not just Ryanair - one way or another.

littco

28th Sep 2017, 21:14

20 new pilots . Or 20 old pilots visting a new base so new to the base?

Sober Lark

28th Sep 2017, 21:30

EFI, There will be no forcing pprune to give your real name! I could guess it myself. :oh:

FlipFlapFlop

28th Sep 2017, 21:38

Instead of the passive aggressive threats, why not use your real name and say why he/she is wrong.

Star1101

28th Sep 2017, 21:44

They would do well in North Korea with Kim ju whatever his name is.

groundbum

28th Sep 2017, 22:06

perhaps the CAA should make noises that the management snafu's and coverups and outright obfuscation revealed by this fiasco raise the idea in their mind that Ryanair may not be a fit enough organisation to hold an AOC...

There is a certain minimum level of management integrity and competence required to operate an airline, and surely nobody is too big to be allowed to fail?

framer

28th Sep 2017, 22:33

I agree 100%. If the director declared that OLeary's public comments create doubt as to his suitability to hold a senior fit and proper person role within the Industry it would be a start.
Just his press conference statements alone display a lack of the maturity and balance required to hold a senior role.

RAT 5

28th Sep 2017, 23:07

The curious issue about their future business plan is;
RYR need to expand continually to survive. They are like fish; keep swimming. In the next 12 months they will receive 50 new a/c. I do not know the net gain from those hulls, but significant. They then say they will operate less a/c than planned and attempt to increase their training program. All this would suggest they will have a/c parked up due to a business plan to not utilise all a/c, even next summer. This appears to be a slowing down of their expansion. It is also dubious if they will be able to crew up all the a/c they plan to fly at the start of summer.
RYR are making very certain & positive comments about the next 12 months operations; but they would wouldn't they. It seems very optimistic to make such comments unless they have had a plan in the pipeline for a few months and therefore knew this was coming. If so that raises a whole raft of questions. If these statements about the future have been cobbled together only in the past couple of weeks it suggests an outrageously amount of very smart work & ultra fast analysis or unhealthy wishful thinking.

leeds 65

29th Sep 2017, 01:36

Sober Lark,your mistaking EFI for me I think.

Spent many years in Ryanair, wanted to fly long haul so had to leave to chase that 'dream'.

High standard of training,engineering,roster is the best in the industry by far. Professional colleagues. Couldn't spend 30 years with them though.

The media make me laugh. Ryanair said that 250 pilots are joining quickly in the next few weeks. The media doesn't know but that is mainly type rating cadets (more then likely,don't know for sure). You can't fly without Captains,It doesn't matter how many cadets there are, (2500 on a waiting list?saw that number too).Media very unsophisticated so ryanair can say anything in a press conference and get away with it. The problem is selling too many flights online while misjudging the number of crew/legitimate awkward leave year.

Also Ryanair are almost always factually wrong with figures and information released in INFORMAL radio interviews/press conferences. But they are always correct DIRECTIONALLY. Thats all the public care about.The public are bored/dont understand facts,figures and numbers. For example if O leary says 5% of pilots leave each year (the real figure could be 7-10%) he gets away with that and the media let him away with it because its directionally accurate i,e Pilots are leaving. Same with saying 250 pilots are joining immediately. The real figure could be 200 mainly cadets. But the public just hear 'pilots joining'. Directionally correct and sounds good. In the eyes of the public,it passes the sniff test.I know it shouldn't but it does.

I was asked recently by a person outside the industry if there were lots of involuntary redundancies because ryanair are cancelling flights. Seriously,large members of the public think its a corporate downsizing decision because of all the bluster about pilots leaving, joining,no they can't have leave,yes they can have leave. Being directionally correct but factually wrong works with the public. They can't and don't play that game with analysts.

Not a nice airline but a great business. €50 million euro in costs - they would prefer not to have it due to there own poor corporate planning of manpower v aircraft but its peanuts. They are forecasting 1.4 - 1.45 billion net profit this year. The 50 million won't make that range change.

Buy the shares. Cheap

Can737

29th Sep 2017, 01:37

Revolt of the Ryanair pilots as they condemn boss O'Leary (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4931388/amp/Revolt-Ryanair-pilots-condemn-boss-O-Leary.html)

TBSC

29th Sep 2017, 01:53

What a disgusting site, a pain to read 4 lines hidden between a dozen low quality pictures about nothing.

Kerosine

29th Sep 2017, 02:53

Best roster is the best in the industry by far
Can you elaborate? Fixed pattern? Part time options etc?

Superpilot

29th Sep 2017, 06:59

This is the end of O' (not so) Leary (now are we?).

I completely agree with the comment above that the RYR machine can only survive if it keeps expanding. With the cost of everything rising, to keep the same economies of scale you have to become bigger.

Problem for MOL is you can only expand if people want to join AND stay. Offer ****ty contracts and treat people like dirt, and this is what happens. This is the darkest week in RYR history.

aileron

29th Sep 2017, 07:48

Ryanair does not have the best roster in the industry. My present employer (22 years) is far better. No I'm not saying it's the best in the industry but far better than Ryanair. Why do people write such rubbish?

Cows getting bigger

29th Sep 2017, 08:16

My bold

It shows that the pre-carrier’s employment practices used by this company are not sustainable and must stop. But it also shows that this is not just about annual leave, it’s about poor management of a scheduling risk that was known about one year ago and it was entirely predictable.

And last but not least, I think it shows that something must be seriously wrong with the Irish Aviation Authority and the way it actually oversees its airlines.

Philip Von Schoeppenthau, General Secretary of the European Cockpit Association on Morning Ireland today.

babemagnet

29th Sep 2017, 08:19

Emirates is holding a roadshow in Stansted.

http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/pilots/#events

Piltdown Man

29th Sep 2017, 08:39

From the frying pan into the fire? From one operator who is desperately short of pilots and who cares nothing about anyone to another. And if you are "lucky" make sure you always pay attention, don't miss any radio calls and maintain your situational awareness, especially when pilot monitoring.

gardenshed

29th Sep 2017, 09:02

Piltdown Man
I agree with what you say, but that does not even cover the half of it.

RAT 5

29th Sep 2017, 09:40

In the eyes of the public,it passes the sniff test.I know it shouldn't but it does.

Why is that? Because the flight crew have lousy if any PR to respond. Why is that if IALPA is awake?

Not a nice airline but a great business. €50 million euro in costs - they would prefer not to have it due to there own poor corporate planning of manpower v aircraft but its peanuts.

Indeed. A few years ago RYR added €2/ticket for EU261 payments after the volcanic ash debacle. Work it out. >€150m pa; how much have they paid out in this years. Pure profit. The pax have already paid for their own compensation.

BusAirDriver

29th Sep 2017, 11:54

There is a general shortage of Captains at the moment, all over the industry, there is not enough experienced guys to make sure the operations run smoothly.

Add the fact never ending expansions puts even more pressure on the airlines, and there are players in market that are offering better service and quality than Ryanair at the moment, but for passengers and crews.

Sure there the ones happy to pay £1 for a ticket, and £150 for the extras, but I believe the tide or this misrepresentation is about to turn, people are not as DUMB as many airlines have treated them.

Sure you will have the masses of low income families travelling who can only afford Ryanair's flights, however if there is no crews, because of bad treatment, than it shows it's a business model that is not sustainable.

If any here have been a passenger with example Norwegian short haul, and you compare it with Ryanair, you would be amazed, flying as a passenger with Norwegian is probably closer to national carrier levels. Sure they have had their own problems this year, offering pilots £2400 to work on their off / leave days, because they DON'T HAVE ENOUGH pilots.

Listening to MOL, and his lies, I am shocked that there is not a revolt in the company, the total LACK OF RESPECT for the people working for him, and how he constantly plays his PR game, where he insults the whole profession, I am sorry it is disgusting that there is not enough coercion within the company that they don't just refuse to work for such a disrespectful leader as MOL, both towards passengers and crew.

With todays technology, this should not be a problem to organise, or at least work to rule.
What people need to understand, they are DESPERATE for pilots, Norwegian are desperate for pilots, most UK airlines are currently recruiting massive numbers, the companies will not start firing the ones they have at this moment, this is the momentum Ryanair pilots have been waiting for, but they unfortunately seem spineless to seize the moment and make it count.

The PR machine of the pilots and unions are weak, although this is the moment where you would probably even get massive public support, as the anger is growing.

This summer Norwegian offered Captains £2400 a day, to come and work on they off days.
Ryanair could face massive class-action lawsuits.

Ryanair have been trying to be very creative in the way they have handled this, probably actually making money on this.

OpenCirrus619

29th Sep 2017, 11:58

A view from SLF ...

I fly, as a passenger, 6-10 times a year.
If Ryanair have a flight that is:
- Between the airports I need
- At a time I want
- Cheap (has to be cheap to put up with the customer service)
then I would, in the past, have used them.

NEVER again - I can't risk them cancelling my flight without THEM paying for the replacement.
I will usually have time off work, accomodation, car hire, etc. booked - so changing dates isn't an option.
By the time they decide to tell me any cheap flights, on other carriers, will be long gone.

If I was a shareholder I would be spitting feathers at the moment.
Shares hit a high of €19.78 6 weeks ago - they are currently down at €16.02 (a 20% fall). The last time they were that low was the beginning of May.

PDR1

29th Sep 2017, 12:02

Ryanair could face massive class-action lawsuits.

Could they? Ireland's legal system doesn't have Class-Action litigation, and nor do those of most european countries. You'd need an excuse to move the cases into a jurisdiction which allowed class-actions.

Con Ning

29th Sep 2017, 12:12

“One of the issues that I think we have to address is that maybe we have got the pilot pay a bit on the low side,” O’Leary said. “Maybe we have pushed it a little bit far in terms of pilot pay and pilot productivity.”

Face it O'Leary, your model of IR is dead.They never imagined implementing their twisted logic for workplace control against declining supply. Said elewhere, but adversarial IR is done.

One posits that the poster boy of aviation IR is torn down and his clan of followers from Air Asia's Fernandes to Qantas' Joyce are also shown to be the hollow mean in their part of the world.

Pilots are not the only part of an airline, it takes a huge number of people, but without them there is nothing with which to derive the revenue for all the expensive administrative staff to consume

Bergie

29th Sep 2017, 13:28

As a long time airline pilot living far away from Europe I am most pleased to witness the fallout due to o'leary's greed. He is one of the main players responsible for the degeneration of our careers. The low cost carrier model has influenced pilot's salaries and terms and conditions throughout the globe.
I have never and will never encourage my children to become pilots.
The glory days are long gone and will never return. Bring on the pilot shortage

caulfield

29th Sep 2017, 14:18

Southwest goes from strength to strength by valuing its passengers and employees.O'Leary's lamentable excuse for an airline and many like it drag the industry down.Very few airlines left worth a damn.
Last post for me...this site isnt what it used to be either.

Callsign Kilo

29th Sep 2017, 15:39

Is it difficult for investors to see that Ryanair needs a massive cultural shift in order to ensure long term sustainability? It's impossible to think how the management's existing employment relations model has any future. The multitude of court cases & litigation alongside the disastrous levels of employee/contractor turnover surely doesn't hold much longevity any more? No matter how much PR you spin to the public about being able to magic thousands of crew from the non existent pilot tree, or decisive ECJ rulings not effecting the way you do business; major investors surely must know the facts?

The way flight cancellations have been dealt with has been a fiasco according to both passengers & the CAA. But what exactly are the IAA doing? It all seems a bit strange.

I find it hard to believe how Ryanair will re-invent themselves again after this one. Not exactly fitting with the slogan 'Always getting better.'

Killaroo

29th Sep 2017, 16:10

FR are bleeding cash now - another poster did some rough figures and proposed its around 2M a day in lost Revenues and refunds. Then there's the damage to the brand, and the repercussions of future bookings falling through consumer fears of cancellations.
Yet MOL offers his pilots 10K€ DEFERRED for a YEAR to give up Annual Leave NOW?
If that isn't evidence of pig headed insanity I don't know what is. The house is on fire and he's pissing on the firemen!

On the other hand - nobody wants to see FR fail. The last thing pilots need right now is 4,000 jobless guys on the market. I wish them all the best - I think there's finally light at the end of the tunnel for them.

Skipname

29th Sep 2017, 16:37

I do want to see Ryanair fail. Yes there will be massive unemployment for a short period but other airlines and new ones will step in to cover the gap left by Ryanair.

Their planes and customers will not just simply disappear. It's like the head of a drug cartel, you kill the boss and 3 others step in to take his place.

FlipFlapFlop

29th Sep 2017, 16:57

RYR will not fail. It is far too cash rich. But it does need to learn some harsh lessons and take a leaf out of South Wests book. That will though require a change of leadership.

Mr Angry from Purley

29th Sep 2017, 17:27

So Ryanair got the info wrong on compensation bit economical with the truth we would probably agree.
So the next question is the 18hr week (1000 flying hours divided by 52 weeks) and "there's no fatigue"
Start making amends Mr OL

Chronus

29th Sep 2017, 19:54

This might be a disaster for Ryanair but it is also bad for the whole of the industry who seem not to give a toss about the customer. Sooner or later they will say enough is enough of being dragged off the cattle transports, their travel arrangements thrown into disarray by flight delays and cancellations, being frisked, stripped searched, stacked and packed into gulag queues, sleeping on terminal floors and suffering all manner of ignonimity for the pathetic pleasures of a litre or two of cheap lager, sangria or some other foul concoction under the mosquito infested skies above some distant shore.

Thad Jarvis

29th Sep 2017, 19:55

I wouldn't lose any sleep if FR failed but it's not going to happen. In an ideal world we could do without RYR, Small Planet, Smart Lynx, Primera, l'avion all of whom use some pretty dodgy HR practices but the CAA just press the ignore button until they are shamed into it.

Smooth Airperator

29th Sep 2017, 19:57

...under the mosquito infested skies above some distant shore.

What a bundle of joy you must've been to your parents.

Piltdown Man

29th Sep 2017, 20:23

Even Mo Farah has a bit of fat and I bet he 'carbs himself up' before a race. Anything that runs lean, mean and flat out will eventually crash for the sake a carrying a bit of fat. It might best be called "resilience". It means you still have a buffer should the unexpected occur. The multi-millionaire MOL has been caught short by the monster he has created. RYR will survive but will they and other organisations learn from his basic mistake. If you rip the heart out of you business and replace it with cash, you have no value. Man needs more than cash to live. RYR will have less cash left after this debacle, but will they have learnt their lesson?

UL730

29th Sep 2017, 20:52

Ironic that UK CAA is implementing and holding to account under Regulation (EC) 261/2004 of European and Council - another EU based airline whose own delegated aviation authority appears to be publicly mute on this significant CAT matter.

Is this what they call in classic EU speak "reste à liquider par les autres"?

Northern Monkey

29th Sep 2017, 20:52

I've always thought that sooner or later passengers are going to get sick and tired of being treated so poorly by certain airlines. I'd wager we have some distance to go yet though.

Does anyone here seriously believe that people will stop flying with Ryanair? People have a short memory and are hungry for a bargain. They will quickly forget this fiasco and come back for more punishment in the future. £9.99 to Malaga? Book it quick before the price goes up! Anyone with the slightest insight into economics and finance would judge that this is nothing more than a buying opportunity for Ryanair shares.

The reality is that we are all addicted to cheap travel, and cheap pretty much everything else. It's basically a drug. Who here hasn't seen something in a shop and then checked amazon before deciding where to buy it? Ultimately we're all guilty of the same rampant indifference when it comes to the consequences of our buying decisions, whether its Sports Direct, Amazon, Uber, Deliveroo... the list goes on and on. That is the nature of unbridled capitalism.

The only way the problem gets sorted is if one of two things happens.

1 ) Government and the regulators actually man up and hold companies like Ryanair to account, which is why it was at least a little gratifying to watch the CAA Chief executive get animated about the subject this week - god knows all of us who occupy these forums must have been wondering when and if he was even capable of it. It's also why terms and conditions in the USA are sky rocketing - because after the Colgan Air crash the regulator actually took some meaningful action.

Unfortunately the Irish regulator doesn't seem to be particularly fond of regulating, presumably because it would result in less airlines choosing to be registered in Ireland and less money flowing into the coffers. And we all thought it was going to be Brexit that was responsible for a low-regulation low-tax "rogue" state on the fringes of Europe. Anyone fancy an apple? :rolleyes:

2) Employees finally realise that the only way to improve their lot is to unionise and hold companies to account through legally conducted IA. I don't really understand why this hasn't happened in Ryanair. Surely there must be an appetite for it?

Here's hoping that one or both of the above comes to pass or nothing at all will change.

rifruffian

29th Sep 2017, 22:33

NM....hum ho....£9.99 to Malaga......funny you should mention that. I have just booked it and have been doing so, occasionally for years. (another £9.99 for the return trip). I do not buy any of the extras on offer.
Just recently there has been the suggestion that I and others like me should be paying 'proper' fares.
'Proper' fares cannot be paid from my income. If it needs much more money, I cannot travel; I am unworried about that. People in this income bracket will be cut out; (doesn't matter)
In working life I operated my own business and occasionally offered services in this predatory pricing manner....it was in my interests to occasionally do so. Nobody complained to me.
In addition to my own low personal air fare on my Ryanair flight,.......much bigger fares have been paid by many other passengers.
Thus aside from gratuitous verbal disrespect now and then from MOL I find it hard to see what pilots are complaining about. Surely they can ignore random nonsense soundbites? If they are not prepared to unionise surely each individual can be aware of the rules that govern their working lives and work strictly to rule if they feel so inclined ? And of course move on, when ready.

Northern Monkey

29th Sep 2017, 23:00

rifruffian

I do appreciate that Ryanair and other low cost airlines have brought affordable travel to the masses and that, in some ways, they should be applauded for that. It has also brought substantial employment opportunities to pilots.

That does not, however, divorce Ryanair from its responsibilities as an employer. Your £9.99 fare to Malaga is a result of the bully boy tactics which Ryanair deploys against suppliers, airports & employees and even to a certain extent its own customers. All I'm suggesting is that those parties finally stand up for themselves and say "enough is enough".

I hope they do so, and if they do, I'm sure the market will adjust and I doubt whatever the new price is, that you won't be able to afford it.

UAV689

30th Sep 2017, 01:00

Of course it could afford it. It would cost them around 5% off the profit to give all pilots a 20k pay rise. About 80m.

These 18,000 flight cancelled will cost them about 130m...and thats excluding the ancillaries.. (40e ave fare and a 95% load factor) and who knows what brand damage and future bookings will cost them now.

He would rather cancel flights than see his staff happy. Deplorable man.

akindofmagic

30th Sep 2017, 02:04

Sooner or later they will say enough is enough of being dragged off the cattle transports, their travel arrangements thrown into disarray by flight delays and cancellations, being frisked, stripped searched, stacked and packed into gulag queues, sleeping on terminal floors and suffering all manner of ignonimity for the pathetic pleasures of a litre or two of cheap lager, sangria or some other foul concoction under the mosquito infested skies above some distant shore.

No they won't.

VinRouge

30th Sep 2017, 04:13

Tempted to book a flight for 9.99 on a high risk leg to claim my EU payment. So which legs are they primarily dropping at the moment?

Globally Challenged

30th Sep 2017, 05:04

Will pax change their buying process? Never

Will pilots continue to apply / stay at Ryanair? Finally debatable.

Regardless of pax demand, can the current flight volume be maintained with insufficient crew? Absolutely not

Will investors be interested in Ryanair if they cannot continue to deliver growth? Doubtful if there is doubt over Ryanair’s ability to crew current let alone increased flight volume.

Can Ryanair continue without investors / growth? Not for ever.

So don’t look to pax or Ryanair or investors to change. The ONLY group with the power to change is the crew.

Hopefully there is much going on under the radar with the crew to drive this change. They should continue to work together while not shouting their plans from the rooftops so that the Chief Pikey can’t move to counter their actions.

paidworker

30th Sep 2017, 08:37

SLF here. Wishing the pilots well from the outside this looks like your chance.. Perhaps market forces will dictate better terms and conditions anyway.. Can only say that my business has a new policy of not booking Ryanair flights any more. At a personal level for our Christmas flights home I paid more to book aer lingus. I can only imagine that a percentage of people out there won't book Ryanair now out of fear their plans are messed up. Wish the flight and cabin crews the best of luck in getting better pay.

vikingivesterled

30th Sep 2017, 09:20

Can Ryanair continue without investors / growth? Not for ever.

Ryanair hasn't gone to the stock market for more funds in a long time. Quite the opposite actually, they are returning money to investors through one-off dividends and share buybacks. So technically they can continue indefinately without new investors, as long as they don't make losses.
Growth, or fluctuation, in the actual share price just benefits staff with share options, and ensures the current management stays in place by satisfying speculators.

172_driver

30th Sep 2017, 09:30

rif,

Thus aside from gratuitous verbal disrespect now and then from MOL I find it hard to see what pilots are complaining about. Surely they can ignore random nonsense soundbites? If they are not prepared to unionise surely each individual can be aware of the rules that govern their working lives and work strictly to rule if they feel so inclined ? And of course move on, when ready.

I think you'd have to experience it to fully understand what could happen to you as a pilot in Ryanair. Sure, many of the problems the pilots face are luxury problems to other groups in society that are less fortunate. Does that make them less legitimate? I don't think so personally. While it's not the most academic job out there people have generally put a great deal of commitment into getting a job as a pilot. I think that should be respected. Regardless of profession I think management should always respect that you are a human being with certain needs for security, financial and social.

Ryanair can be a great place if you've got the base of choice, a steady roster and quite alright money. At the end, most people or not so upset about the money they make but all the other 'little things'. The basing policy is a disgrace and there is no regard to loyalty (as in; basing based on seniority). The contracts when you start are all, or used to be when I was there, zero-hour contracts. No fly no pay. Break a leg? Unlucky you. Hope you've saved up. Only the direct Ryanair contracts provide a certain protection. They keep insisting on hiring you on Irish contract, somehow claiming you're working on Irish territory and thus should be governed by Irish laws and practices. Without knowing them all in full, I understand they're quite weak compared to many other European countries. Hence you're denied certain rights in your home country ( not necessarily by the local authority, but by Ryanair). I have never heard a Ryanair pilot being granted paternity leave. I have nevered heard a Ryanair pilot go on his statutory summer holiday. I have never heard a Ryanair pilot go part time for studying. If you're British you may think I am talking out of my arse, but in some European countries these are fundamental rules that all other companies have o play by. Ryanair think they're somehow above that. Fortunately the European Court of Justice has now put it down on paper that 'home base' should be the primary marker as to which laws you should be governed by.

So while the verbal disrespect you mentioned can be a nuisance, there is much bigger fish to fry for the employees, I fully understand your situation and price of the fares. Going on holiday is, again, a luxury problem. I wish everyone could have the opportunity, but i don't think it should be at the expense of others.

Gordomac

30th Sep 2017, 11:10

Here here 172! Will the right honourable member remain standing and take the ovation. I do feel that we pilots keep doing it to ourselves and, often, as resolute and self motivated as MOL.

Way back, I left the comfort zone of our National carrier. I was desperate for a B707 or 727 rating which I would have then used to jumpship, downroute if necessary and offer myself to my carrier of choice.

I was seduced by a highly attractive operator and fell for the high profile conduct of it's owner. The Base was ostensibly LGW. In fact, we did one week at Manch, two days off, one week in Berlin, two days off and back to Manch. I never did get to see LGW other than from a pax perspective in the back of a commuting BCAL 1-11. Back home, the dog bit me & the kids called me uncle.

Basic pay was low but allowances were high. If I worked, I almost doubled my pay from BA days. If I didn't work (sick, eave etc ) the bank manager was on my back.

Company further seduced us 1-11 drivers with A310 (for it's time, hugely attractive) and ordered, about ,11 of them. Massive order for DC10's too meant I was space-bound and could expect my first Command to be on wide-body, yes, LGW Based, near my home.

I woke up to reality and resigned in order to go for actual rather than promised opportunity. I never noticed that there was a six month notice period rather than the industry norm of three. I pleaded to be released but was threatened with court action for breach of contract. I got legal advice & decided to go to court. In my last three months, I was taken off the roster as a Base/IR renewal was due. I was kept at home, out of check and severely out of cheque ! I joined my new operator in old clothes and worn out shoes.

The new employers were top-dog. Boeing course in Seattle. All transfers & very high standard accommodation paid for. Full allowances (away from Base) paid in advance.Very highly sought after type rating paid for with no bond. I did, kinda, repay. I stayed from start to horrible demise. The company's that is, although I didn't fare too well either, for a bit.

Yet, we still have, I am sure, tons of pilots ready to sign up for the terms & conditions offered by the likes of Ryanair. We will continue to do so and no, there is no solution.MOL has every right to stick two fingers up to us & laugh all the way to the bank. I do, frankly, admire his entrepreneurial skill.

BluSdUp

30th Sep 2017, 12:29

I think RYR has passed point of no return with regards to the old way of treating and paying pilots.

Here is why: In a resent memo it is stated they have 445 ac next summer and 25 are grounded. This winter the number is 400 minus 10.
A factor of 5,2 crew per aircraft now is going to increase to 5,4 in the future.

Hallo, what did they slip in the coffee,, that white powder sure was not sugar!!!

The rate of pilots leaving is off the scale. The one staying are not linetraining or TRE ing anymore.

Unless the Terms and Pay goes up by 30 to 40% and local contracts are applied, people are just not interested.

With the expansion retirement and pilots leaving, we are looking at a net 1000 pilots plus the next 18 months.
It is just not done.

Oh . and as long as Mr O and his incompetent gang is at the helm, not much will change. He is going to destroy the company.
This Company has great potential, but it is still a fact: No Captain , no FO , no pushback.
Happy Days

vikingivesterled

30th Sep 2017, 12:43

Maybe a limited work conflict would have been better for Ryanair than a pure schedule shrink:
They don't have to worry about investors because they are not looking for more money in the markets.
They wouldn't have to pay striking staff and their pilots would be flush with hours affterwards. They could temporary suspend other unneeded staff, without pay.
Striking group wouldn't have been oragnised for long so wouldn't have built up funds for a long conflict.
FR could whrink their schedule and would just need to give affected passengers their money back but wouldn't have to reroute them, put them on other modes of transport or compensate them.
It would shift the public's blame to the striking group and sympathy to the company.
In the end the conflict would be solved with a lesser increase in payment to the pilots than what they got, or a reorganisation in direction of less contracting, more social protection and even less in the hand.

Greek God

30th Sep 2017, 13:01

Ryanair will always be a paradox - Folk know full well what they are like and yet still join. I suspect the level of experienced crew recruitment is somewhat less than that of newbie / cadet level, but as someone alluded to earlier, an airline needs to keep a careful eye on its experience demographic. Start losing that experience, and more importantly, training experience and the thing will unravel.
Given the level of outrage and interest is outfits like Sports Direct and Uber and the attention to zero hour contracts I remain astounded that this airline's employment practices haven't come under closer scrutiny. However, if you have bills to pay and you understood what you were joining it is difficult to get things changed. The only way to voice your displeasure is by leaving - a difficult option for most.
I personally do not respond well to bully boy company tactics and wish the company and MOL (in its current form) ill. For all the working staff FD, CC, admin check in etc etc who essentially provide the obscene profits, I wish well and desperately hope some good comes out of this to their advantage.
I'm sure OLeary will survive on even a small percentage of what he has reaped.

Vokes55

30th Sep 2017, 14:58

Chronus

30th Sep 2017, 16:39

What a bundle of joy you must've been to your parents.

That`s got me reminiscing. There was a time when air travel was a delight and to be an airline pilot meant something, not to me alone but to all. But of course I was a bundle of joy, must say more so to my nanny than my parents.

Bayerische

30th Sep 2017, 16:41

qwertyuiop

30th Sep 2017, 17:02

I would love to know what percentage of cabin crew earn €40k. Another Ryanair :mad: story I guess,

EFISchap

30th Sep 2017, 17:07

Ryanair flight attendant lifts the lid on startling working conditions ? and plans for a revolt (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/comment/ryanair-flight-attendant-union-secrets-reveals/)

Spreading to the cabin crew ranks now. It could be a perfect storm for O'Leary.

That just makes me :mad: sick to the pit of my stomach. When I worked in that quagmire of a so-called airline I witnessed young, new, bright cabin crew (male and female) from many different countries reduced to tears, talked down to, and basically ripped apart by disgusting bully base supervisors who's attitude can only be described as abhorrent!

It was VERY upsetting to watch.

This has been going on for long over a decade! And lets not fool ourselves here nor question this Daily Telegraph article - that article is 100% true and correct!

This sadistic, bullying culture doesn't come from within one RYR "base" - it comes form the top! The very top! From MOL - who has made all his profits from standing on the necks of crew - and all his other evil sheep at the top with him!

It's hard not to feel deep-seeded disdain for such a sick and twisted airline management culture!

THERE IS A MASSIVE RISK TO SAFETY HERE: As a captain it is my duty to absolutely ensure that all my crew FO, pursor and juniors are "on the ball", clewed in, focussed and know their stuff. And yet where is the certainty in knowing my crew are of sound mind and not distracted should an emergency evacuation be required, or if a rapid decompression occurred, on-board smoke, a fire, fumes, bomb threat... or any other non-normal situation - but all the cabin crew can think of is that viscious cowardly borderline "corporal punishment" they just received from some sick base supervisor who was given strict instructions from top management to do so! "Safety first" - gimme a :mad: break!

MOL has to go along with his twisted bullyboy cronies if any good is to be made of what is - at the moment - a nasty ass "airline".

RobsonCanolo

30th Sep 2017, 19:27

Ryanair (Crewing) are now telling everybody who calls sick that they must contact one of the managers (D..R...) the following day. Upon which, said manager will then tell them that their sickness is suspicious, and that they cannot position home at the end of the week if they call sick the following day too. So essentially, Ryanair are now threatening anybody who calls sick.

Utterly illegal and in complete contempt of safety. When are the authorities going to act upon these cowboys?

Could try this form confidential reporting to the IAA. Maybe they have no choice but to act if people follow it up after the report.

https://www.iaa.ie/commercial-aviation/safety-reporting-1/confidential-reporting-form/confidential-occurrence-reporting-form

BusAirDriver

30th Sep 2017, 19:46

"Asked for a response, Ryanair said: “Ryanair cabin crew earn up to €40,000 p.a. and enjoy great terms and conditions including job security, a recently negotiated five year pay deal with guaranteed pay increases, a five-on, three-off roster (a bank holiday weekend every week), a legal max of 900 flight hours p.a. (just 18 hours per week), great sales commissions which further boosts pay, free training, sick pay and an annual uniform payment of up to €425. This is why we currently have a waiting list of over 3,000 young people who all hope to join Ryanair’s cabin crew team, at a time when other airlines and their unions are negotiating job cuts, pension cuts and pay cuts. We don’t comment on rumour or speculation especially when it originates from competitor airline unions.”

Ryanair Cabin Crew making £40.000 a year, and only working 18 hours a week, when are the authorities going to stand up to such lies being told?
When is someone going to challenge MOL and Ryanair when they talk such rubbish to the press?

I would like to say having watch some of MOL's press conferences, the journalists that are there seems to be equally clueless and gutless, as they just sit there and accept all his BS.

I have seen some journalists asking for people to get in touch with them, but I would say these people who are responsible for the news are equally incompetent as journalists.:ugh:

rifruffian

1st Oct 2017, 09:51

Envy and hate seem to be sentiments that are infecting the current Ryanair situation.

BusAirDriver

1st Oct 2017, 09:57

Envy? Envy of who?

Doors to Automatic

1st Oct 2017, 10:19

I think it was MOL's comments about pilots rather than the original cancellations which will prove to be his Ratner moment.

vikingivesterled

1st Oct 2017, 11:19

hopefully his multi million pound/euro pension will be revoked.

That just show how little some knows about Ireland and the leader of Ryanair.
A missed pension is hardly going to bother a man who is, as close as make no difference, a billionaire and hovering around number 8 on the Sunday Times Irish rich list. He was one of the first in Ryanair to forego his final salary pension, years before he forced everyone else to follow suit. Besides, his pay is way below other comparable executives in similar scale positions.
His fortune was founded in the very early days when he negotiated a deal for a percentage of the profit with the Ryans. A deal that could not continue when Ryanair went public, and therefore was converted into a sizeable chunk of shares.
He is probably no longer in it for the money, but it does give him a powerbase and a platform where others reports/listens to/worries about his opinions and what he has to say. Maybe the time of enjoying that is coming to an end.

BluSdUp

1st Oct 2017, 12:49

If RYR call people that are in sick liars, just as the Flu season starts that is smart.
And a safety hazard.
And deny them to DeadHead home.

So with the same logic they can not DH inbound to start a duty at the end of a cold. Super.
What is next? A stool sample if stomach problem, send by Company Mail!

That could end up with dirty money,,,,

How about we close that can of worms! ( and germs)

Mr Angry from Purley

1st Oct 2017, 13:48

If FR cabin crew get paid so much how come every time there is a drop of snow flights get cancelled in their droves. Nothing operational just the fact the local busses are stuck / cancelled so the Cabin crew cannot get to work.
ODeary and spin go together

Fire and brimstone

1st Oct 2017, 15:41

That just makes me :mad: sick to the pit of my stomach. When I worked in that quagmire of a so-called airline I witnessed young, new, bright cabin crew (male and female) from many different countries reduced to tears, talked down to, and basically ripped apart by disgusting bully base supervisors who's attitude can only be described as abhorrent!

It was VERY upsetting to watch.

This has been going on for long over a decade! And lets not fool ourselves here nor question this Daily Telegraph article - that article is 100% true and correct!

This sadistic, bullying culture doesn't come from within one RYR "base" - it comes form the top! The very top! From MOL - who has made all his profits from standing on the necks of crew - and all his other evil sheep at the top with him!

It's hard not to feel deep-seeded disdain for such a sick and twisted airline management culture!

THERE IS A MASSIVE RISK TO SAFETY HERE: As a captain it is my duty to absolutely ensure that all my crew FO, pursor and juniors are "on the ball", clewed in, focussed and know their stuff. And yet where is the certainty in knowing my crew are of sound mind and not distracted should an emergency evacuation be required, or if a rapid decompression occurred, on-board smoke, a fire, fumes, bomb threat... or any other non-normal situation - but all the cabin crew can think of is that viscious cowardly borderline "corporal punishment" they just received from some sick base supervisor who was given strict instructions from top management to do so! "Safety first" - gimme a :mad: break!

MOL has to go along with his twisted bullyboy cronies if any good is to be made of what is - at the moment - a nasty ass "airline".

Bullying in the loco airline segment? Does this really go on?

Would the regulator NOT BE INTERESTED in this sort of thing? You mentioned it affects flight safety.

Surely if true there are laws against bullying?

:ugh:

Callsign Kilo

1st Oct 2017, 16:50

There’s many laws against quite a number of things.

However this is what Andrew Haines, CAA’s CEO, thinks about FR and their legal obligations
https://www.caa.co.uk/News/CAA-response-to-Ryanair-consumer-commitments/ (http://https://www.caa.co.uk/News/CAA-response-to-Ryanair-consumer-commitments/)

FR spend a humongous amount on legal costs and appear content to do so. The collateral damage of doing business their way.

gearlever

1st Oct 2017, 18:23

Didn't FR spent some money and great effort to "trace" pprune posters for "defamation" ?
https://www.sundaypost.com/news/uk-news/ryanair-to-sue-pilots-over-safety-claims/

tescoapp

1st Oct 2017, 20:44

what was the outcome of that?

Greenlights

1st Oct 2017, 21:16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsurmmelCC8

Omg, I cant help it loool
this interview was a few years go, in resume: pilots/cabin crew do not leave, they are very happy.

marchino61

2nd Oct 2017, 05:29

Will the failure of Monarch ease up the market for pilots and allow Ryanair to escape from the hole it has dug for itself?

tescoapp

2nd Oct 2017, 06:34

Depends what the crew want to do there are tons of 737 and airbus jobs out there for experienced crew.

Even if they do decide to go across its 2-3 months before they will be through the training system and line training never mind signed off.

For those requiring a full type rating instead of differences training (which will be the majority) it will probably be longer. Currently they must a have 3-5 month backlog in training.

it certainly won't cure the problem overnight.

BluSdUp

2nd Oct 2017, 08:26

Firstly , my condolences to our Monarch colleagues.
I lost my job to bankruptcy, and it is a personal disaster.

As far as this helping RYR it is negative.
Why?:
MON has 35 AC and max 450 pilots. All Airbus.
This slots nicely into Easy,Wizz Vueling SASneo AerLingus etc plus wourldwide.

At best 50 will go for RYR.
The other will go to RYRs competitors to slot right into MON abandoned routes that RYR normally would take in a heartbeat.

But they cant, no crew , plenty aircraft. Tough luck for RYR.
Good lock to all Monarch pilots.
The 737 is a model T Ford.
Stay on the Airbus.

Greenlights

2nd Oct 2017, 09:32

The 737 is a model T Ford.
Stay on the Airbus.

I agree with that. :ok:

Greenlights

2nd Oct 2017, 09:45

Monarch flights cancelled as airline ceases trading - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-41464934)

and then some talk about pilot shortage lol

ScouseGeordie

2nd Oct 2017, 09:55

You absolute :mad: What is there to laugh out loud about hundreds of pilots and others losing their jobs.

Say Mach Number

2nd Oct 2017, 10:40

The 737 is the tractor of the aviation world and I think its widely accepted the Airbus is far more refined beast.

Only problem with Airbus it was built by engineers for engineers. Whereas Boeing built a plane for pilots.

"Greenlights". No laughing matter thats for sure been there.

Anyway good luck to the Monarch folk.

Reversethrustset

2nd Oct 2017, 11:06

To be honest, who really cares how antiquated the 738 is compared to the Airbus, the Monarch guys and girls probably won't care either, all they will want is employment and a wage coming in for Christmas, be that on an Airbus, 738 or a Dash 8.

Grennlights, you probably didn't mean to laugh, maybe it's the irony of what's happened and the industry is still short of pilots, I don't know, but seriously, no need.

Greenlights

2nd Oct 2017, 12:16

You absolute :mad: What is there to laugh out loud about hundreds of pilots and others losing their jobs.

before insulting others, you should try to learn reading between lines.

Laugh was to people who keep claiming that there is a need in pilots...:ugh:

vikingivesterled

2nd Oct 2017, 13:20

You decide the solution to a problem when you choose the person tasked to fix it. Setting the chief of personnel to sort out rostering is bound to lead to a manual solution with even more human resources, which there is no need for since the computerised rostering system has the ability of a nearly fully automated process provided you utilize all of it's features including long term requirements, analytics and crew holliday preference selection adjusted to availability.
Sometime companies that are in part highly regulated forget to adequately train the areas of the operation that is not. Internal training might in some cases be do the job, but one can't expect internal trainers to have full knowledge about all newly developed features in an outside sourced system without regular updates from the third party.

langleybaston

2nd Oct 2017, 16:10

Please forgive SLF ignorance: could the poor Monarch aircrew be easily hoovered up by Ryanair?
If so, I suppose good for them but it could defuse the crisis, which would be a pity as crew fight for better conditions.

tescoapp

2nd Oct 2017, 16:32

takes at least 3 months to induct someone if they don't have the type rating. That is if your training stream is empty. I suspect Ryanair's is backed up just now.

The other thing is most have airbus type ratings and there is no shortage of airbus jobs out there.

langleybaston

2nd Oct 2017, 16:37

Thank you very much

gearlever

2nd Oct 2017, 16:39

Cows getting bigger

2nd Oct 2017, 19:02

.....and there lies a problem. The public (MOL?) don't understand or even care what someone needs to do to sit in 1A or 1B. Surely an Airbus is exactly the same as a 737? They have a similar number of seats.

RAT 5

2nd Oct 2017, 19:25

I was reading these comments in the DT recently. These are paragraphs quoted from 3 different journalists discussing the London dispute with Uber. It made me make comparisons with some discussion going within our industry, and make comparisons with the topics under discussion. It also made me wonder why the similarities in our industry are NOT in focus and being debated in public. First it was Sports Direct, now Uber; when will an airline be the focus of attention on similar issues?

“While not mentioned by TFL, and not mentioned within the regulator’s remit, Uber has received a lot of criticism for the way it treats its drivers, who are self-employed instead of Uber workers. Politicians have rounded on the company as an emblem of the ‘gig economy’ that does not guarantee work benefits or a steady income for drivers. (That matter has become the subject of its own legal battle.)”

“London’s black cab drivers, and all private hire drivers in UK, deserve a level playing field with Uber. They don’t have one currently.”

“Uber is no stranger to controversy, whether that be for the record of its founder or for where it pays its taxes and how it treats its workers. All these things are real challenges. It’s right for them to be tackled.”

“Cynics might also suggest that the objections of TLF are veiled. Might it be that although TLF’s objections focus on safety concerns, what it actually objects to – and what the powerful trade union lobby who speak for London’s black cab drivers object to – is the flood of private hire vehicles on the street of the capital.”

“Others, like the GMB union, attack Uber for supposedly exploiting its drivers. They argue that Uber drivers are denied basic workers’ rights, like sick-pay, holiday leave and minimum wage. But Uber drivers are free to work for other providers, they choose their own hours, and polled the majority said they preferred the maintaining flexibility to having additional workers’ rights.”

The journalists also declared their own philosophy that Uber gave customers a choice; that it allowed free-wheeling entrepreneurship and markets forces to be in play; encouraged investment into job creation and broke closed shop cartels. i.e. if the customer benefited from lower prices and reasonable safe standards then all was right with the world.
The question of a how to create a level playing field, both in complying with the same regulations and workers’ rights, was not answered. They all seemed to come down on the side of free market business and passenger choice triumphed over basic employment conditions.

langleybaston

2nd Oct 2017, 22:30

Of course we know that passenger choice trades off risk for cheapness, but, hey-ho, who gives a :mad: until it hits the fan?.

My ar*e is seriously concerned!

As SLF I want a happy captain, a happy FO, and a happy cabin crew and am totally prepared to pay for it.

So which airline do I patronise in future please?

wowzz

3rd Oct 2017, 06:19

How about Flybe?

Fire and brimstone

3rd Oct 2017, 07:56

If this was a topic that had merit, then someone sufficiently concerned would surely provide this information to the public.

One can only assume either there is not that level of concern, so no-one has spoken out; the respective unions do not feel the need to speak out; the regulator is satisfied there is 'no associated risk to flight safety' (as the parrot said); and in any case, the public are not interested / do not care.

Cheap chocolates are tempting and very tasty.

Cheap flight tickets are too good to miss out on. Many people I know fly exclusively with one loco airline, as they know they will pay rock bottom fares - they do not care about the current situation; they do not care they always get back at 3 AM, etc, etc.

Who cares how they can possibly do it so cheaply, members of the public?

Count of Monte Bisto

3rd Oct 2017, 15:25

For what it is worth, although the Monarch demise is extremely unpleasant to those associated with it, I do not believe unemployment will be their lot for long. The overwhelming majority of those pilots will pick up other jobs very quickly indeed. Good luck to them all.

tescoapp

3rd Oct 2017, 16:05

pilots will be fine...

Please remember the back office types as well though

Although Bromley and Luton shouldn't be to bad to pick up more work.

Skipname

3rd Oct 2017, 17:48

I sow that Virgin, Aer Lingus and EasyJet are already offering fast track entry to Monarch's pilots and cabin crew, which means MOL won't be able to dig himself out just yet.

Does anyone have any news about the plans of the FR pilots and cabin crew? Are they planning a surprise for MOL or did they bend over and took up their :mad: like they had for years?

Doors to Automatic

3rd Oct 2017, 22:28

That was really good to see today. Really hope all those crew get re-employed as soon as possible and very refreshing to see some kindness and compassion in an industry usually full of sharks. :ok:

the_stranger

4th Oct 2017, 11:12

If you're eferring to the compassion shown by the comments on this board, I agree. If however you see the quick scooping up of the jobless pilots and crew as compassion, don't be fooled. It has nothing to do with compassion and most with a (beginning) pilot shortage in those other companies.
And what is better to scoop up recently fired crew who are current, have experience, need less/little trainigng and, but that is speculation, are eager to join and might not negotiate the best deal just to be able to pay the morgage again?

Fortunately it works out for both this time, assuming they do get hired there.

RobsonCanolo

5th Oct 2017, 14:22

Genuine question about the EI- Irish registry argument where staff pay less social tax than those employed locally (in a chocolate context)

If someone would buy a EI registered airframe, park it on a airport on the continent, buy the necessary equipment for making chocolate onboard and employ a great chocolatier and sell the product locally. Would you pay the going rate for the social in that case or do you still enjoy the EI-discount ?

Cazalet33

5th Oct 2017, 14:44

You'd pay as little tax as you could and you'd charge loads for crap chocolates, of course.

The chocolates would be absolute ****e and you'd overcharge for the crap. That's the business model and it works. That's why he's a billionaire and you're not.

RAT 5

5th Oct 2017, 16:15

This thread had gone a long way from its title?

PPRuNe Towers

5th Oct 2017, 16:30

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...id-to-unionize

Ryanair Holdings Plc pilots campaigning for unionization amid a staffing crisis that’s led to the cancellation of 20,000 flights have been offered financial backing from American Airlines Group Inc.’s cockpit-crew association.

The Allied Pilots Association has offered to support Ryanair crews in forming a union or joining an existing body such as the Irish Air Line Pilots’ Association, according to Daniel Carey, president of the U.S. group, who met with the Dublin-based carrier’s employees last week in the city. The APA is aiming to stem the hiring of staff on unappealing contracts through outsourcing firms.

“We’ve been following the Ryanair model and we don’t want indirect employment to come to America,” Carey said, adding that Fort Worth, Texas-based APA is open to pitching in with communication expertise, IT support, additional manpower and financial assistance.

Ryanair has been forced to scrap flights affecting more than 700,000 people after the carrier failed to prepare for a change to annual-leave rules, requiring it to cram a year’s worth of vacation into nine months. The timetable cuts will trim growth and threaten to hurt the company’s reputation, giving employees a chance to force through unionization that Chief Executive Officer Michael O’Leary said last month would come only when “hell freezes over.”

Pilots everywhere are particularly keen to head off a trend toward third-party hiring led by Ryanair, which not only results in inequitable contracts and a lack of collective-bargaining power but also makes it tougher to secure mortgages and pensions, Carey said. The APA would assist with any campaigns that might be organized as well as help fund legal costs.

“It’s time to cut out the Michael the Miser act and sit down and have a proper labor-relations department,” he said. “That works better for the passengers, the shareholders, for management and for pilots.”

Carey didn’t say how much financial support the APA, which represents 15,000 American Airlines pilots and is the largest independent union for aviators, might be able to provide to Ryanair employees. The association is active in Washington and has lobbied on issues including flight safety, training and the reduction of fatigue, though providing funds abroad would be an unusual step.

Ryanair has already agreed raises of 10,000 euros ($11,760) for captains and 5,000 euros for first officers stationed in Dublin, London Stansted, Berlin and Frankfurt, and plans to meet with other base representatives in coming months.

The carrier referred requests for comment on the APA’s involvement to a Sept. 27 statement in which it said it would not meet with pilot unions, only with its employee representative committees. Ryanair has said anonymous demands for group meetings have come from pilots and unions at competitor airlines keen to pursue an industrial-relations agenda at its expense.

Ryanair shares rose 2.7 percent to 17.34 euros. That helped erase the stock’s losses since the first round of cancellations were announced after the close on Sept. 15 and lifted the company’s market value to 20.5 billion euros.

The European Court of Justice said last month that Ryanair employee lawsuits can be heard in jurisdictions where they are based, something analysts reckon could led to it being required to employ staff on local contracts. The ruling represented a “big boost” for pilots as they seek to organize, Carey said, while also prompting investor concern that Ryanair’s labor costs might rise, undermining its competitive edge.

Evan Cullen, president of the Irish pilots’ union, said that while organizations like the APA can be of assistance, it is for Ryanair’s pilots to decide whether they want to act as one collective body or retain the status quo. He added that Ryanair crews are “afraid individually to raise their heads,” while stating that his union is not engaged in any industrial action at the carrier.

----

RAT 5

5th Oct 2017, 19:11

while also prompting investor concern that Ryanair’s labor costs might rise, undermining its competitive edge.

Which always raises the question why RYR's competitors do not raise the issue of an uneven playing field. When it comes to subsidies and tax breaks and relaxed tariffs etc. everyone is screaming at unfair tactics. Why is there no voiced concern at alleged dubious reductions in employment costs?

MaverickPrime

5th Oct 2017, 19:15

Interesting that the APA is being much more proactive than IALPA.

aj1

5th Oct 2017, 20:04

Phenomenal memo from the Boss this evening, am just wondering how low and derogatory not just a CEO but any 'professional' can get. Good luck to FR pilots, the writing is on the wall now.

Chesty Morgan

5th Oct 2017, 20:29

Michael O'Leary pens impassioned plea to Ryanair pilots to get them to remain at the airline - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/michael-oleary-pens-impassioned-plea-to-ryanair-pilots-to-get-them-to-remain-at-the-airline-36201239.html)

Chesty Morgan

5th Oct 2017, 21:57

Not if the employees capitulate. But then short term gain usually wins over long term pain in this industry.

Cazalet33

5th Oct 2017, 22:05

https://s1.postimg.org/5aadl6e14v/Ryanair_P1.jpg

https://s1.postimg.org/3tgzxl5ov3/Ryanair_P2.jpg

https://s1.postimg.org/2u0wkf780v/Ryanair_P3.jpg

speedrestriction

5th Oct 2017, 23:15

My God, this letter reeks of desperation. I doubt it's worth the paper it is printed on. As soon as the rostering crisis abates it will be back to the same old :mad:. Fool me once: shame on you, fool me twice: shame on me.

Above The Clouds

6th Oct 2017, 06:20

Yep someone is starting to realise there is a noose around his neck 'MOL' and its getting tighter. Guys and girls take heed what 'speed restriction' has mentioned above, the ball is firmly in your court to make significant changes within your industry once and for all.

crewmeal

6th Oct 2017, 06:46

Now your favourite paper has got hold of it

Ryanair boss O'Leary sends begging letter to pilots | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4954140/Ryanair-boss-O-Leary-sends-begging-letter-pilots.html)

RAT 5

6th Oct 2017, 08:10

That letter seems to be addressed primarily to those on RYR employee contracts. What % of 4200 pilots are those guys? Are cabin crew contractors or employees? Are they experiencing the same issues? If so, what is being offered to them?

doniedarko

6th Oct 2017, 08:16

It should be remebered that Ryanair gained quite a considerable commercial advantage when they interpreted the 1st of April as an opertunity to 'Zero' pilots hours over a decade ago. Effectively ensuring all pilots were within hours for the busy peak season. It's taken a decade for the regulators to catch up.

As for MOL's 'road to Damascus ' memo yesterday, if anyone believes EW and MOL do charity it's time to wake up. Bench marking me Bo*lix Ryr pilots should be on 20% more as MOL and his team will spend the next 10 years clawing it back.

MaverickPrime

6th Oct 2017, 08:27

MOL and his team will spend the next 10 years clawing it back.

Correct, the pilots shouldn’t sign any deal that doesn’t involve periodic pay reviews to ensure salaries are rising in line with inflation in the future!

Is the loyalty bonus going to be paid each year, or just this year?

What about things such as uniforms, tea coffee and water, airport passes, medical, passport etc. Still have to pay for all that?

This letter is a start, but it still leaves a lot to be desired!!

lederhosen

6th Oct 2017, 08:33

There is a lot of smoke and mirrors about pilot pay. As pointed out by Rat 5 it depends on what contract people are on and where they are based. The good news for everyone is that the biggest player (Ryanair) has finally recognised that pilot pay needs to improve, which should in the medium term be good for all of us if this develops into a bidding war for a scarce resource (experienced captains at least).

From a practical point of view it is unclear what Ryanair are actually offering. PPJN seems a reasonable source and suggests 125,000 euros for captains. But then it says you have to pay tax and national insurance in Ireland and where you are based, adding that in Germany this is some exorbitant amount.

It would be nice to be able to use this benchmark to drive up pay in our own companies. But frankly based on the information in the public domain (including Ryanair careers) I have no idea what Ryanair is actually offering. Anyone of their thousands of employees like to share something more substantial, ideally including a reasonable assessment of the new offer? If you are going to make a snarky comment please try to desist, as this is intended seriously and could help us all improve pay, thanks.

SR71

6th Oct 2017, 08:38

Not worth the paper it is written on.

Virtually every single element of any proposed increase comes with a caveat attached.

Bearing in mind his inherent cynicism, in contrast to what the letter claims, all proposed increases need to be unconditional and effective as of now.

Not being a FR pilot though, I suspect he is still endeavouring to dodge the main issue, which is a move to ensure that every pilot working for FR is on a proper FR contract, not some ridiculous quasi-contract, dreamed up for all manner of reasons, but principally to emasculate aforementioned pilot.

You've nothing to fear MOL.

Southwest are doing nicely.

Well Used

6th Oct 2017, 08:50

Interestingly its currently Ryanair that are feeling this pinch, I know for a fact that other airlines are capitalising on this as they are expanding and have a requirement for pilots, if these pilots happen to be type rated then they'll take as many from Ryanair as they can.

There is one such UK airline that is doing this however they themselves don't realise that they aren't that far from having a pilot revolt especially from a groaning training department.Ryanair pilots are not alone they are just in the spotlight at the moment.

Just like the Ryanair mgt this other airlines mgt also have their heads in the sand however Ryanair's CEO is leading this and is accountable, with the other airline the Chairman is just get getting lied to by his senior flt ops managers who are telling him all is well. Like Ryanair its isn't.

The time for pilots is now, its time to highlight the deficiencies of our managers and senior managers and claim back what has been eroded over the last two decades.

As ex Ryan we we're divided and ruled, those left have opportunity to change how your treated but you need to change it now.

Piltdown Man

6th Oct 2017, 09:07

A new religion? Next week MOL will seek to become a practising Budist/Jew/Hindu/Jehovah’s Witness/Follower of the Devine Lightbulb (next week cross out those that do not apply). Apparently he’s also bought some of these (https://www.etsy.com/listing/183093468/leopard-print-heat-transfer-or-adhesive). And isn’t he being so kind by making sure his pilots don’t do the wrong thing by leaving. Maybe if he allowed his staff to have proper contracts of employment and better terms and conditions he could save a fortune on administration, recruitment, selection and training. That is assuming they are not RYR profit centres.

Just out of interest, does this guy live in a house with curtains, carpet, wallpaper, front door and stuff like that? Or does he live in an easily hosed out caravan in Ballymun?

Star1101

6th Oct 2017, 09:14

Will not recognise unionisation until "hell freezes over"

Hell will probably freeze over in the coming months and it's located near Trondheim airport Norway .

Direct Bondi

6th Oct 2017, 09:19

“Reeking of desperation” or not, the letter includes the CEO’s signature. The signatory may be held to account, particularly if you are directly employed by Ryanair.

Does the signature of Bjorn Kjos appear on any agreement of terms and conditions between Norwegian and its rented pilots?

rotorwills

6th Oct 2017, 09:45

Well the question I would ask is? Are you sure that the signature of the CEO, it may be as of today, but by the time you want to hold him account will he still be the CEO. Of course as well as you believe one could hold MOL account for anything is definitely wishful thinking.

Jwscud

6th Oct 2017, 10:35

Still clinging to “local benchmarking” without recognising many pilots commute to their base and live elsewhere.

Eddie Wilson is the company’s union buster in chief and is the man who took a flight all the way to Copenhagen just to tell the Danish Unions to **** off and fly home again.

Still trying to stick to the busted ERC and divide and conquer model.

Nice try but I hope my former colleagues don’t fall for it and stay strong.

Ryanairpilot

6th Oct 2017, 10:43

At least somebody in the media has the measure of O'Leary:

Ryanair: Has Sky King Michael O'Leary really gone down on bended knee? | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/ryanair-has-sky-king-michael-oleary-really-gone-down-on-bended-knee-a7986236.html)

Boeing 7E7

6th Oct 2017, 11:03

The last sentence In the article says it all. Let's hope Ryanair pilots will exercise wisdom and not be fooled by promises. Promises are easy to give and easy to renage on. What is required is systemic change. Anything short of that will be fools gold!

RAT 5

6th Oct 2017, 13:12

Still clinging to “local benchmarking” without recognising many pilots commute to their base and live elsewhere.

We are told that contractors have a fixed rate depending on which agency rents out your soul; and they have differing rates to each other, but it matters not which base you fly from. Thus it would seem 'bench marking' with local operators would not affect the majority.

Still clinging to “local benchmarking” without recognising many pilots commute to their base and live elsewhere.

Curious: MOL claims the Supreme Court (which country) ruled that the ERC model satisfies 'collective bargaining' guidelines. RYR admit that ERC's negotiate T's & C's for their respective base only: and then only for the very few RYR employees at that base. Thus, if the ERC's are local how can they be collective. Is that 'Irish' or not? Answers please from them who know.

beachbumflyer

6th Oct 2017, 14:19

Ryanair turns on the charm.
https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2017-10-06/when-ryanair-does-charming-it-s-time-to-run

aileron

6th Oct 2017, 14:48

So............Ryanair pilots aren't scum anymore but pilots at other airlines are? Love it.

Sober Lark

6th Oct 2017, 15:17

At least somebody in the media has the measure of O'Leary:

I wouldn't like to be sitting with this unhappy reporter over a pint. What a begrudger.

Does that mean the end of the Ryanair investment case? No. Even if the wage bill increased by one-quarter, it would still report a very impressive 21 percent operating margin: twice what Easyjet Plc managed last year, according to my rough calculation.

Bloomberg, well one has to say he has an intelligent conclusion.

LapsedPPL

6th Oct 2017, 18:42

On the BBC News website (Anonymous Ryanair Pilot speaks):
Ryanair 'run like a communist regime', says pilot

bbc.......news/uk-england-41384789 (or search for headline)

GScapture

6th Oct 2017, 19:28

Ryanair 'run like a communist regime', says pilot - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-41384789)

Bayerische

6th Oct 2017, 19:49

The first head has rolled!

Looks like O'Leary is blaming everyone but himself.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ryanair-chief-operations-officer-michael-hickey-to-leave-1.3247296

six-sixty

6th Oct 2017, 20:19

I love this, especially the song at the end, and I genuinely can't tell if this is one of TF's impressions or not!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7VYWr2View

Can737

7th Oct 2017, 02:17

Ryanair letter to pilots shows O?Leary still doesn't get it | BALPA (http://www.balpa.org/Media-Centre/Press-Releases/Ryanair-letter-to-pilots-shows-O’Leary-still-doesn)

UAV689

7th Oct 2017, 04:14

New command upgrade scheme announced.

Basically it's a 3 yr bond.

Total con.

Vokes55

7th Oct 2017, 05:33

I'm wondering who at Ryanair is stupid enough to not realise that people don't want to stay, and introducing bond after bond isn't going to change anything - if anything it'll make people want to leave even more. Just like when they stopped allowing pilots to unfreeze their ATPL during the bi-annual simulator events. They think they can imprison people into staying, rather than enticing them with improved terms.

The exodus will continue, there are too many better options on the table right now.

BARKINGMAD

7th Oct 2017, 06:39

Either a love bite or a pimple.

Wonder when the carbuncle will be lanced.........?

RAT 5

7th Oct 2017, 07:04

RYR have grounded 25%-ish of its fleet during the winter for the past few years. EZ started this by calculating it was cheaper to stop loss making routes and ground the a/c than to fly them with no demand. RYR seem to claim they will fly 25 fewer a/c so to give their hard working crews their well earned leave. What they omit to say is that these grounded a/c will not need crews, who therefore will not be paid. Contractors, both pilots & cabin will go without work and thus income for the winter months. But they can might still be rostered for unpaid SBY duties at a base that could be away from home at their own costs. Make your own judgements.

alserire

7th Oct 2017, 07:23

Is it’s actually possible that O’Leary may just have to fall on his sword?

As an Irishman nothing would give me more pleasure.

doniedarko

7th Oct 2017, 07:32

Either a love bite or a pimple.

Wonder when the carbuncle will be lanced.........?

Looks like your fairygodmother heard you :ok:

The first big name to get launched ....sorry resign !

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ryanair-chief-operations-officer-michael-hickey-to-leave-airline-1.3247296

fly4more

7th Oct 2017, 09:49

Do you really pay for your own Aircraft/IR rating renewals at Ryanair? I find this astounding if true.

Rated De

7th Oct 2017, 10:39

Trust Mr O’Leary to add fuel to that inferno with his accusation that some pilots were being “precious about themselves” and “full of their own self-importance”. Not to mention jabs at the amount of hours they have to work. Most airline management uses the same economic textbook; lower unit cost for labour. (at any cost)

Such thinking has preoccupied business school MBA's for decades.
It is not only airlines where teams of expensive accountants pour through accounts looking for ways to lower unit cost.

O'Leary's secret recipe isn't secret, it is replicated all throughout the airline industry. The same cocktail parties see these modern day romeo's swapping notes on the practices that made O'Leary a poster boy for ADVERSARIAL INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS.

Qantas (in Australia) even went as far as replicating an entire airline to isolate and control the mainline terms and conditions: It is called Jetstar.

They never imagined that their model had one fatal flaw; declining supply.

It is a structural shortage beginning with demographics and ending with an IR structure that at its genesis is a destructive, adversarial and divisive model. Where people are simply units of labour to be derided, outsourced and minimised endlessly.

Time for the mutinous pilots to book the gains they’ve made and pipe down?
If I were in their shoes I would at this point ask myself whether leopards ever really change their spots.O'Leary has a huge infrastructure of workplace relations, human refuse practitioners who will not willingly go into the night. To them and O'Leary as hammers every problem is a nail and as such they will not fully appreciate that this is not cyclical, it is structural

Chris Martyr

7th Oct 2017, 14:27

I was shown a copy of this letter at LGW this morning. [ and no ,,,, I definitely don't work for Ryanair]
Firstly , I questioned the authenticity of the letter as it's pretty universally acknowledged that this obnoxious little leprechaun doesn't do contrition.

The colleague who had shown me "the letter" reassured me that it wasn't a 'wind-up' , but all I could hear was a gearbox being crunched into reverse.

What's that old saying about , "if it sounds too good to be true".

No pressure from the shareholders then Michael ?

And there was daft old me thinking that it was Neil Kinnock who'd written "The longest suicide note in history".

langleybaston

7th Oct 2017, 15:23

No, that was Michael Foot, one of the Five Feet brothers, Dingle, Hugh, John, Christopher .

These are NOT the

"Feet that in ancient time ..........."

jeehaa

7th Oct 2017, 16:56

Once again, MOL addressed the 'Ryanair Pilots' in his letter, which which he means : Ryanair pilots on permanent contract - the other 60-70% of his workforce has once again been spit in the face....

Boeing 7E7

7th Oct 2017, 17:19

Always worth seeing again, as told by the man himself!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ytmFxB1ec&feature=share

bafanguy

7th Oct 2017, 20:42

Quite the dissertation but he was probably right in some respects where pilot supply is concerned.

But you understand that once the current fracas subsides, Ryanair will soldier on pretty much as if nothing had happened ? You get that, right ?

And the public's reaction ? They have repeatedly proven there's no limit to the mistreatment they'll endure for the right ticket price. Their "outrage" can also be ignored. You can bet MOL knows that.

Actions speak louder than words...for pilots and passengers.

BehindBlueEyes

7th Oct 2017, 22:31

Ryanair 'run like a communist regime', says pilot - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-41384789)

RobsonCanolo

8th Oct 2017, 15:19

fly4more Yes monetization is prevalent as pilots have to pay for recurrent simulator training, initial training (at a steep premium) and also in many cases as a contractor you need to pay and accountant under a self employment scheme despite working for only one employer etc

golfyankeesierra

8th Oct 2017, 16:20

Even for recurrents? :eek:

RAT 5

8th Oct 2017, 17:22

Is it true F/O's have to pay all their expenses during command upgrades? What about salary during the process? No flight pay for RYR contracts, perhaps, and nowt for the contractors who are only paid to fly.

TheMightyAtom

8th Oct 2017, 18:09

All expenses paid by the pilot. Paid as normal (Salary and flight pay for employee/flight pay for contractor) no pay when on the ground/SIM (just basic for employees). Same for all training at FR. You wanna be a TRE? Great, here's a months training where you earn nothing and pay your own hotels.

Dualbleed

8th Oct 2017, 18:18

If I took a contract with RYR as self employed, then I’m selling my services to them. Would it be possible to say that I’m doing 4 days a week say Wednesday to Saturday or a different combo. What I understand is you only get paid for what you do so can’t see a problem there. Win win for both. Or ? Surely they would be happy that anyone will help them out.
It’s not always about the money but quality of life !

TheMightyAtom

8th Oct 2017, 19:41

Well that would imply you're actually a contractor as opposed to a 'contractor'

Ryanair only utilize the se services of 'contractors'

Dualbleed

8th Oct 2017, 21:31

Not sure what “se” services are ? You hire out your services on an hourly basis. I know some planning from your customer, in this case RYR needs to be fulfilled for planning purposes. But surely if you’re self employed you dictate when, what and where you want to work. Or am I missing something. If you want an employee you hire somebody on a permanent basis with all that entails. I would even consider RYR if I could say that in the month of February I will be only working xyz days. Beggars can’t be choosers as they have become now.

Sue Ridgepipe

9th Oct 2017, 00:20

You wanna be a TRE? Great, here's a months training where you earn nothing and pay your own hotels.
You can't be serious? Do people actually sign up for this? I mean, needing a job to pay the mortgage and feed the family is one thing, but the company needs you to be a TRE more than you need to be a TRE, so why on earth would anyone accept these conditions?

TurningFinalRWY36

9th Oct 2017, 03:02

ego is a very powerful thing

UAV689

9th Oct 2017, 06:31

They are now offering “bonus” to upgrade to captains. Its basically a 3 year bond!

Trying to lock in future capts. I hope they reject the pityful offer.

anderse

9th Oct 2017, 07:15

You can't be serious? Do people actually sign up for this? I mean, needing a job to pay the mortgage and feed the family is one thing, but the company needs you to be a TRE more than you need to be a TRE, so why on earth would anyone accept these conditions?

Here is another story about how pilots are treated in Ryanair. I had a similar incident myself, in Ryanair. The day after, I applied for another job and a few weeks later, I resigned.

Rated De

9th Oct 2017, 07:22

When the model lauded by O'Leary and his ilk is so steeped in adversarial structure, is it suprising?

As the comment indicated, we are not indentured.

You are only a door mat if you lay down.

Anyone doubting how Mr O'Leary really feels about pilots ought watch again;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6yt...&feature=share (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ytmFxB1ec&feature=share)

Qantas' Joyce spoke many a time with the same tone towards company employees in the lead up to grounding and locking them out (even those not involved in the dispute) Not JQ or Jetconnect of course! :mad:

Superpilot

9th Oct 2017, 08:32

BBC interview with Kirsty Young.

qQqGKMU5_NM

Time to stick it to this smug little [your choice of a 4 letter word]. There's jobs for every single one of you 4,000 RYR pilots out there.

Can737

9th Oct 2017, 23:58

It is not like they have the choice.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1009/910977-ryanair-pilots/

RobsonCanolo

10th Oct 2017, 04:52

Indeed i don't have any first hand experience with these things but wouldn't be that surprising if they hit the ball back on the court once more saying more or less the same things until they know the guys have a good hand... It's unity that's the key for pilots, that's for sure at least...

Journey Man

10th Oct 2017, 06:01

Meanwhile, how long until FR switch to the winter schedule and alleviate the issue? Will the crews snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?

TheMightyAtom

10th Oct 2017, 06:25

1st of November, but it doesn't matter, the problem isn't going anywhere.

flyhigh85

10th Oct 2017, 06:30

It must be the most :mad: airline in the world!!! Just read the story about the 2 pilots beeing stuck in a camping site... felt sorry for them! North Korea here I come. Ryanair is the cancer of aviation in Europe and is greatly responsible for the low and longtime erroding terms and conditions. A pilot with respect for himself should not consider taking a job for them now, let MOL boil in his fat for a while and the terms will go up eventually.

Alsacienne

10th Oct 2017, 08:21

And despite all this :mad: the crews and pilots are still working professionally, safely and doing a great job for their passengers. Well done to all those in the flying harps, despite everything a certain Irishman with a loud mouth has done to you.

skyloone

10th Oct 2017, 09:11

Can’t read the German article above.... any other links to it?

Direct Bondi

10th Oct 2017, 09:15

In response to the concerns raised in this article:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1009/910977-ryanair-pilots/

Ryanair’s directly employed pilots have specific “right to organize” protections within Europe via Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights, local labor laws (UK, Trade Union Act 1992) and International Labor Organization conventions (every country Ryanair operates in Europe is a signatory):

"ILO 98 - Right to organize and collective bargaining.
This fundamental convention provides that workers shall enjoy adequate protection against acts of anti-union discrimination, including requirements that a worker not join a union or relinquish trade union membership for employment, or dismissal of a worker because of union membership or participation in union activities. Workers' and employers' organizations shall enjoy adequate protection against any acts of interference by each other, in particular the establishment of workers' organizations under the domination of employers or employers' organizations, or the support of workers' organizations by financial or other means, with the object of placing such organizations under the control of employers or employers' organizations. The convention also enshrines the right to collective bargaining.”

http://www.ilo.org/global/standards/subjects-covered-by-international-labour-standards/freedom-of-association/lang--en/index.htm

The significance of the recent ECJ ruling on the application of EC 44/2001 and its relevance to labor rights and labor principles in their employment relationship with the airline, should not be overlooked (something Norwegian’s pilots do not have).

EC 44/2001: Section 5, Article 18, Jurisdiction over individual contracts of employment, provides directly employed Ryanair pilots with local labor law protection and oversight:

“Where an employee enters into an individual contract of employment with an employer who is not domiciled in a Member State but has a branch, agency or other establishment in one of the Member States, the employer shall, in disputes arising out of the operations of the branch, agency or establishment, be deemed to be domiciled in that Member State.”

It is understandable why contractors do not protest to management. However, in respect of those directly employed, either Ryanair is complying with local labor laws or pilots are not challenging unlawful abuses and disputes via the legislation available to them.

Hopefully, Ryanair's directly employed pilots are taking the lead to improve conditions for all.

Can737

10th Oct 2017, 23:21

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2017-10-09/ryanair-pilots-win-union-support-from-second-major-u-s-carrier

Sober Lark

11th Oct 2017, 09:36

I read Unions are effectively labour cartels that damage economies and the travelling public.

Rated De

11th Oct 2017, 09:50

Organised labour stopped children in coal mines, sadly unions forgot their roots and fell in with the same political interests of the other side. In most western economies the distinction is blurred.

The ability of organised labour to stop the advance of the corporate has been curtailed,certainly in many countries that was by design. The result being an erosion of purchasing power in many professions white and blue collar.

Is it any wonder that the gap between the 'Captains of industry' and everyone else is so large?

We the consumers do it to ourselves and make decisions that kill off indigenous industry and complain when it becomes our industry too: A viscous circle, difficult to get off.

Ryanair is simply a symptom of the broader malaise.

Henry Ford eloquently summed up the problem over 100 years ago when he said (I Paraphrase) if ultimately I don't pay my workers sufficient to buy one of my cars, eventually I have no business.

Unwinding this adversarial model is a huge undertaking and O'Leary will continue as will others until the revenue drop is substantial enough to oust him and his ilk.