PDA

View Full Version : Virgin Australia recruitment


Pages : [1] 2 3 4

BPA
5th Oct 2016, 10:13
Given Virgin Blue is long gone, it's time to start a thread about Virgin Australia recruitment.

Interviews are about to commence for ATR FO, B737 (VAINZ) FO and B777 SO positions. Initial interviews will be for those on the hold file (yes there are still some).

Resolution Advisory
5th Oct 2016, 11:19
Not about to commence, I'd say well under way down at Boeing this week

skysook
5th Oct 2016, 18:53
Their loss dejapoo. They better not come back crying when the music stops and they don't have a chair to sit on...

SHVC
5th Oct 2016, 21:41
Music stops where skyhook?

Hasselhof
5th Oct 2016, 23:17
Interviews are about to commence for ATR FO, B737 (VAINZ) FO and B777 SO positions.

They were interviewing for all of those positions a month ago, and I believe the VAINZ and B777 before that too. I've spoken to a few people who have had the thanks but no thanks reply, however has anyone got the tick of approval?

das Uber Soldat
6th Oct 2016, 00:00
They called me off the hold file, I said no. That HR department needs to be shot.

Jetstarpilot
6th Oct 2016, 00:14
With VAH share price tanking at 24c Vs QAN surging at $3:15 I'll be staying at the Star latched tight to my mothers teat thanks for the offer anywayz:ugh:

skysook
6th Oct 2016, 00:51
SHVC,

A boom in pilot recruitment can stop abruptly with little warning. Just ask those that missed out in 2008. So get a seat while you still can. :ok:

SHVC
6th Oct 2016, 02:09
Ah O.K, well recruitment won't stop at VA anytime soon

MACH082
6th Oct 2016, 04:19
Funny how things change.

5 years ago you were gutter trash if you went to JQ, QF was a dinosaur and VB was the premium job.

Take whatever seat you can. If you are lucky enough to have a choice, take something that'll give you some chance of employment overseas.

henli
7th Oct 2016, 01:20
Anyone know what sort of technical questions they're asking? And a rough idea of the sim profile?

The Bullwinkle
7th Oct 2016, 02:49
So get a seat while you still can.
A bit like grabbing a deckchair on the Titanic!

5 years ago you were gutter trash if you went to JQ, QF was a dinosaur and VB was the premium job.
Mmmmm....... And what was the major change at Virgin around that time?
You can draw your own conclusion.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=plZRe1kPWZw

Icarus2001
8th Oct 2016, 06:20
Charting (http://www.asx.com.au/prices/charting/index.html?code=VAH&compareCode=&chartType=LINE&priceMovingAverage1=&priceMovingAverage2=&volumeIndicator=BAR&volumeMovingAverage=&timeframe=daily)

galdian
9th Oct 2016, 07:10
Good on 'em!

IF they go through the screenings and IF they succeed and are offered positions THEN they'll have to make the big decision. :ok:

If you're wise (?) enough to realise things change, nothing stays the same forever do you:

- join QF who have begun rising after many years of tough times BUT may well run out of puff in 5/7/10 years and once again stagnate

OR

remain with VA who are pretty much on the bottom and yet to begin their glorious rise to prominance, profitability and public affection...

before running out of puff in 7/10/12 years time - maybe??

Best of luck with THAT crystal ball! :p

Of course one or other could go broke at some stage??
Nah - that'd never happen in Oz! :E

Cheers.

The Bullwinkle
10th Oct 2016, 01:15
remain with VA who are pretty much on the bottom and yet to begin their glorious rise to prominance, profitability and public affection...

:ugh::ugh::ugh::mad:

CSTGuy
10th Oct 2016, 01:40
remain with VA who are pretty much on the bottom and yet to begin their glorious rise to prominance, profitability and public affection...

before running out of puff in 7/10/12 years time - maybe?? "

😂 7/10/12 years. Doubtful even the new, reinvented VA, will still be around in its current form.

Buckshot16
10th Oct 2016, 06:54
I'd love to come back, is John and Brian still conducting interviews ? Interview, Psych test, skills test, team building and any other B.S were done well within an hour, even less depending on your surname and the 89 fence. VBA the good ole days.

Density
10th Oct 2016, 10:02
Brian who...Kearney??

Buckshot16
10th Oct 2016, 11:20
Yes Density mate, the one and only ! Those days are gone, the HR twats need to justify there existence now, with questions like " can you give me a time ... and what was the outcome ". Please tell me you don't have a psych department in VA.

Calldepartures
20th Oct 2016, 09:58
Seeking some info about the entrance testing for 777 SO. Anybody who would be kind enough to share, please PM. Also, would love to hear from anybody who is currently employed at VA about there thoughts in relation to this position.

Thanks
Calldepartures.

Biatch
20th Oct 2016, 11:19
Best idea is to use pinstripe solutions if you decide to go for the interview. She has all info regarding the interview, including tech questions.

Chadzat
20th Oct 2016, 12:18
If you are breathing and can count to 10 then you are in with a pretty good shot these days! I wouldnt waste money on interview coaching etc.....

The Bullwinkle
20th Oct 2016, 12:22
If you are breathing and can count to 10 then you are in with a pretty good shot these days!
I think you just have to turn up don't you?

Going Nowhere
20th Oct 2016, 12:41
Calldepartures,

Most of the current VA S/O's will be too busy doing their QF testing to be able to answer your questions at the moment. :E

SpyderPig
21st Oct 2016, 01:12
Actively hiring? Not one person I know has been contacted for VANZ or 777 spots. Few have been contacted for the ATR but id hardly call it actively!!

kirkbridge
21st Oct 2016, 02:19
In spite of the advertised requirements, additional requirements will ensure a call. The 'shadow' requirements for Virgin are as follows:

Minimum

- 250 PIC lunar module
- 4 months ISS (max 14 days transit can be used towards this)
- Certificate 4 in pole climbing (greasy preferred)
- Advanced diploma in bodily pineapple storage
- 6 weeks intensive jacket wearing in temperatures above 40 degrees celsius

Preferred

- Proven history of taking accountability for mistakes of others
- Masters of finger pointing (Ph.D preferred)

34R
21st Oct 2016, 03:34
What makes you say that kirkbridge?

framer
21st Oct 2016, 11:29
His sense of humour? .... Made me chuckle anyway :)

Berealgetreal
21st Oct 2016, 11:51
Calldepartures, you've got the job.

Open Descent
22nd Oct 2016, 05:01
VA are facing some challenges getting the required numbers at the moment.

QF opening up their process is not helping, but neither is their integration model. The only way in now is either SO, FO on ATR in OZ or FO on 737 in NZ.
This is not the most attractive career path for most regional or military applicants I would suspect, and to make matters worse, less experienced candidates (or anybody for that matter) will not be offered a position unless they hold a multi crew rating, which incredibly the company are unable to offer in the endorsement process as VA themselves are not an approved MCR provider????

Even though nothing has been signed off yet, Tiger may offer a better path into the company than any other means. If they are part of the integration system, upon joining you will have a VA number at the bottom of the current list, as will any new hire direct into VA. The only difference being an opportunity to crew a jet based in Australia.

They really have gone from one of the more attractive employers to absolutely one of the least.

Aviatrix91
22nd Oct 2016, 08:01
But they are getting applicants who are appropriate but they aren't looking at us for whatever reason. Myself and others who I know applied on the first day application opened for VA , crew multi crew RPT turboprops

wheels_down
22nd Oct 2016, 08:22
Tiger are not part of the integration system and probably never will.

Think Jetstar with Qantas. Associating Tiger and Virgin pilots in any form will just result in tears and no doubt union headaches in the future.

Icarus2001
22nd Oct 2016, 10:48
The only way in now is either SO, FO on ATR in OZ or FO on 737 in NZ.

I would suggest it will not stay like that for much longer.

morno
22nd Oct 2016, 11:18
Tiger are not part of the integration system and probably never will.

Think Jetstar with Qantas. Associating Tiger and Virgin pilots in any form will just result in tears and no doubt union headaches in the future.

Prepare to be surprised :(

All so that they can keep Virgin FO's happy.

Open Descent
22nd Oct 2016, 21:40
I would suggest it will not stay like that for much longer.

I think you may be right on that, but only after the situation has reached critical mass and they realise there is no other way I suspect!

Aviatrix91
23rd Oct 2016, 00:06
Has a single person with ATPL subjects only been given a reply? Seems like you can meet the requirements, but not the "requirements"..

And CASA said "frozen" ATPLs wouldn't have any impact of pilots' ability to move up in the industry..
I don't know if having a frozen ATPL is affecting it as a lot of us have full ATPL and haven't heard a thing!

Falling Leaf
23rd Oct 2016, 01:10
Most of the current VA S/O's will be too busy doing their QF testing to be able to answer your questions at the moment.

Not just VA SO's.....

Considering that QF SO's have better T&C's then most domestic VA FO's...

SNOGH
23rd Oct 2016, 04:45
The only thing I can think is that since recruiting these days is HR based I would guess that since the position hasn't closed yet they will still be processing them. I wouldn't expect anything till after the closure date of 31 Oct.
I did hear that after the first round of applications back in Aug that they only got 140 odd applicants and of those only a very small few (<12) had MCC or better (read ATPL).

SilverSleuth
23rd Oct 2016, 08:55
Qantas SO on the 787 make almost double the VA 777 SO.
Add to that, the VA SO makes 15k less than the cabin Crew CS manager on the same aircraft. (An absolute disgrace)
At 74K for being a pilot and less than a cabin crew member why would anyone bother.

romeocharlie
23rd Oct 2016, 09:11
Because it's still better than flogging a 50yo piston around on 45k/year :rolleyes:

PammyAnderson
23rd Oct 2016, 10:11
Because it's still better than flogging a 50yo piston around on 45k/year :rolleyes:

Well with that attitude why not become a flight attendant and then you can make even more money.
What are the unions doing about this? Isn't the EBA being negotiated atm.

Stretch06
23rd Oct 2016, 21:25
Silver Slueth, why is it a disgrace. If we look at the position that each holds, their respective responsibilites and career progression.

SO - has the Capt, FO above them, minimum responsibility in that sense.
CSM - is basically the Capt of the FAs. Has to manage a large team to ensure success.

SO - large potential for career progression, normally the start of ones airline career.
CSM - this would be at the other end of their career after years of being a FA.

I look at it like a Pilot/Flying Officer in the airforce flying a C-17 or herc. The WOFF or SGT Loadmaster is probably making 15-20K more then them. But the Loadmaster has been around for a longer career so far, the new pilot is starting their career.

Open Descent
23rd Oct 2016, 21:47
I'm not sure what the cut-off date was for the MCR for the ATPL, but the requirement to have it presently is a directive from CASA.

I am a bit surprised that successful candidates have still not been offered a course. The only reason I can think of is that you may have nominated a base preference that currently has no vacancies? Other than that, I'm not too sure.

Barry_Crocker
23rd Oct 2016, 22:19
Stretch06

S/O moves on, CSM moves on.

Replace an S/O and then replace a CSM. Let's see how that works out.

chookcooker
23rd Oct 2016, 22:31
Silver Slueth, why is it a disgrace. If we look at the position that each holds, their respective responsibilites and career progression.

SO - has the Capt, FO above them, minimum responsibility in that sense.
CSM - is basically the Capt of the FAs. Has to manage a large team to ensure success.

SO - large potential for career progression, normally the start of ones airline career.
CSM - this would be at the other end of their career after years of being a FA.

I look at it like a Pilot/Flying Officer in the airforce flying a C-17 or herc. The WOFF or SGT Loadmaster is probably making 15-20K more then them. But the Loadmaster has been around for a longer career so far, the new pilot is starting their career.
"SO - has the Capt, FO above them, minimum responsibility in that sense."

Perhaps, but the CSM has the Capt, FO AND THE SO above them so even less responsibility.

The SO has probably been in the industry for nearly a decade so hardly "at the start of their career".

And whilst we're benchmarking pay vs "time in career", ' I've been in this game longer than a lot management so I guess I can look forward to my pay increase to be on par with them?

MACH082
23rd Oct 2016, 22:33
Stretch06,

The SO is a senior officer of the company and ranks above the CSM, requiring far more training, skill and oversight. Surely they should be paid accordingly?

Bluewhine
23rd Oct 2016, 23:16
Talk is cheap. The EBA vote will be interesting in that it will probably be a resounding "no" vote from SOs unless a proper offer is presented.

Wiggley
24th Oct 2016, 00:25
I did hear that after the first round of applications back in Aug that they only got 140 odd applicants and of those only a very small few (<12) had MCC or better (read ATPL).

I have over 1000 hours multi-crew experience above 5,700kg and the MCC dispensation that goes with a TR on a multi-crew aircraft. That has yielded me nix, nada, nothing from Virgin, so guessing that an ATPL is the minimum to even get a look-in for a 777 or ATR gig?

MACH082
24th Oct 2016, 02:51
While we are also at it, without the SO or SOs the company would require another captain or FO like other airlines who are paid a fair bit more.

Yes, the CSM manages a team and that's fair enough, but can the CSM initiate an emergency descent? Handle an incruise engine shutdown? Or divert the aeroplane and land if the operating crew is incapacitated?

The SO can do all of those things. The SO could also easily do the CSMs job if called upon without to much bother.

Stretch06
24th Oct 2016, 06:20
Mach,

I don't disagree, especially with the training and skill part. I understand that the SO 'outranks' the CSM. However, the Pilot/Flying Officer, outranks a SGT/WOFF from the day they start, but that doesn't mean the loadmaster SGT/WOFF deserves less then Pilot/Flying Officer pay.

One could argue that instructors deserve more then SO wages, because without the instructors, the SO would never of gain a licence, learnt the skill to be able to hold a pilots licence.

romeocharlie
24th Oct 2016, 07:41
Ahhh Pammy, why don't we all become flight attendants and get paid the big bucks - weeeeeeee!!! :}:}:}:}

kirkbridge
25th Oct 2016, 00:13
Stretch, are you on the company negotiating panel? If not you should be.

Bob Tait should be paid more than any pilot in the world because he writes the books that the instructors read to learn how to teach the SOs get their licence to become captains.

As alluded to by another post, one position involves hundreds of thousands of dollars of training, years of work and (although not ultimate responsibility) a level of responsibility high enough to be dragged by the tie over the coals for a phuck up of ANY magnitude. They are part of the operating crew.

The other requires a 'high level of customer service'.

You're kidding yourself mate

Swept-Wing
25th Oct 2016, 03:38
I hold a full ATPL and only got an invitation for the ATR position.

My guess is their chasing multi-crew experience and ATPL for the SO 777 slots.


I know someone who just got an invitation to the 777 SO/ 737 FO slot. No ATPL (theory only) about 2000-2500 hours, 800 multi, no turboprop/multicrew.

Vorsicht
25th Oct 2016, 06:10
There is no stone tablet anywhere that says pilots have to be paid more than Cabin Crew. They are separate markets and the market will decide. At the moment the market is gradually tilting toward the pilots, but is it enough to force a meaningful increase? We should find out in a few months.

Barry_Crocker
25th Oct 2016, 06:28
Multi Crew on the 777, not sure what that's about.
The only time the primary boys turn around is:

1. There has been a stuff up.
2. They're handing you their jepp's to put away.

VH-FTS
25th Oct 2016, 06:29
The other requires a 'high level of customer service'.

You're kidding yourself mate

You're kidding yourself mate with a view of cabin crew (and in particular the cabin manager) like that.

Density
25th Oct 2016, 07:40
FTS: I agree...kirkbridge...you either lack multi-crew experience, personality, any sense of teamwork, or a brain....or all of the above!

kirkbridge
25th Oct 2016, 09:54
Classic! The name 'Density' sums it up.

White with one thanks mate

Density
25th Oct 2016, 10:47
Classic! The name 'Density' sums it up.

White with one thanks mate

No problem...just double check it's a teabag won't you?

amateur
2nd Nov 2016, 09:33
Anyone willing to shed some light on the type of tech questions they're asking in the interview?

Open Descent
2nd Nov 2016, 09:57
No technical questions in the interview.

Just some tell us about yourself type questions and some behavioural type questions.

SHVC
2nd Nov 2016, 10:57
There is a 20 question tech quiz Before the sim session.

henli
4th Nov 2016, 00:42
I can confirm no tech quiz (at least for the 777/737). All HR.

34R
4th Nov 2016, 09:56
Human Remains......
It might interest you to know that the changes to VA's recruitment process have also resulted in all but 1 or 2 of the recruitment team now actually being current line pilots.

Just sayin....

das Uber Soldat
4th Nov 2016, 10:12
A little bit late I'd suggest.

34R
4th Nov 2016, 10:55
Suggestion noted :rolleyes:

das Uber Soldat
4th Nov 2016, 11:21
You can roll your eyes all you like kiddo, doesn't change the fact that Virgin has seen talent slip through their fingers to other carriers for no better reason than an appalling HR department.

34R
4th Nov 2016, 13:14
No doubt..... as has every other carrier I would suggest.

My initial point was not to get into a pissing contest, rather to raise the point that HR's involvement in the recruitment process is somewhat diminished in comparison to years gone by.

White and Fluffy
7th Nov 2016, 20:24
With the latest round of 737 FO spots going down to just 2 people off the top of hitting the VARA list and the musical chairs not stopped yet it will be interesting to see what happens in the next 6-12 months. The last ATR commands where also awarded a long way down the list and will start to fall into guys that don't have the hours to upgrade yet, so there may be some quick commands for those that join now if you have all the boxes ticked.

Falling Leaf
8th Nov 2016, 08:57
The last ATR commands where also awarded a long way down the list and will start to fall into guys that don't have the hours to upgrade yet, so there may be some quick commands for those that join now if you have all the boxes ticked.

Do not forget there are a lot of junior FO's that are senior to the VARA list but have to wait until every VARA FO has been offered a command before they can bid for one...

So maybe a wee premature to start telling externals not even in the door yet that they can look forward to an ATR command.

Berealgetreal
8th Nov 2016, 10:30
I doubt anyone is going to go from FO jet to Turbo prop. It's hard to tell where a new hire will end up and how long. Assuming it's one big line to the job you want is incorrect as everyone has different needs and desires. It's no longer the case everyone will pack their lives up and move for the next promotion.

From what I saw the latest Aus east coast 73 FO slots went to guys that started in 2013.

What's the go with the 10% VARA thing?

I think it's also important to remember that significant turn over is ocurring and I'm told is going to increase.

SHVC
8th Nov 2016, 19:07
Falling Leaf, fluffy is actually on the money. FO remaining on the list are the cadets which none have the requirements for a command and VA can't even organise the ATR to conduct an RNAV SID so I highly think organising any kind of ICUS program would be far to hard for VA.

A direct entry FO on the ATR could get a command sooner rather than later, however with attrition so high on the ATR from what I have been told more FO have positions with other carriers or have interviews next month Not sure the ATR will survive 2017!

Berealgetreal
8th Nov 2016, 20:27
Plenty of senior guys dusting off logbooks and resumes. Opportunities elsewhere are starting to appeal to some. Next year will be a big year.

KRUSTY 34
9th Nov 2016, 02:34
It'll be big alright.

A line manager with a certain regional had been busy all October providing (verbal) references, senior management forbade anything written.

The VA contact remarked that we ain't seen nothing yet!

VH-FTS
9th Nov 2016, 20:29
What's next Gladstone?


No, Rockhampton.

30% attrition rate on the ATR this year alone has left the fleet well understaffed and cancelling flights everyday. This has given the company the excuse to try to push all Rocky flying on to Alliance.

More and more VA ATR and Ejet flying being swapped over to Alliance everyday now. Pretty sure it's been JB's plan for a long time to make Alliance to Virgin what Cobham is to Qantas.

RE: ATR commands. The only 'quick' commands that might be possible would be in Canberra. No growth out of Brisbane, and any commands that come up will go to the FOs still hanging around, then anyone from 'mainline' interested on the group list. With the Ejet being withdrawn soon, there are a number of Ejet FOs that would like ATR spots to stay in BNE.

Berealgetreal
10th Nov 2016, 03:29
They've been using Alliance for years so it's nothing new. Anything FLIGHT CREW related to save a penny. Any opportunity they get - in rolls Alliance and suddenly the brand/image fanaticism disappears. Not sure what the union involvement would have been usually they find out 2 minutes before the email comes out.

Anyway stickshaken's post has disappeared so I'm talking to myself.

VH-FTS
10th Nov 2016, 07:58
The difference now is Alliance wet leases are replacing fleets, not filling gaps.

das Uber Soldat
11th Nov 2016, 03:09
haha, thats awesome. Deserved too.

framer
11th Nov 2016, 05:26
and the other wore thongs and said he was using for interview practice. Whoops.
Lol if that is true then that dude is a legend. Can anyone corroborate the story?

Density
11th Nov 2016, 06:06
I recall a pilot rocking up to get a job wearing doc martins (with the union jack painted on them) once, along with purple foils in his hair! He didn't get the job. Wonder what he's doing these days!?

goldypilot
18th Nov 2016, 23:28
Any news on the latest EBA and if the 777 SO are going to get a pay rise? What dollars are the talking that it will go up to?

ReBjorn
20th Nov 2016, 00:24
Should get another update next week. Last month their offer was less than what was put forward 2 years ago...

RogerRamjet01
21st Nov 2016, 22:32
So I have an application in with these guys. website still says Application under review (funny enough my applications with JQ and QF say exactly the same thing).


I have not heard a thing since applying.


Does this mean I'm still in the process or its over, move along?..


At least with the QF app I was asked to do the psych / numerical / video...


RR

thefeatheredone
22nd Nov 2016, 21:39
I did the online cognitive testing for these guys a few days ago. My app. was sitting there with no word for 2-3 months then got an email. I wouldn't write it off to soon...!!

Falling Leaf
23rd Nov 2016, 01:15
Be patient... HR are busy with the White Ribbon mass indoctrination at the moment, telling every white male that they are all violent misogynists while completely ignoring International Mens Day (which was on the 19th in case your own female dominated HR department missed it). Employing and retaining suitable staff is a distant priority.

The Bullwinkle
23rd Nov 2016, 01:22
Running an Airline properly also seems to be a distant priority!

porch monkey
23rd Nov 2016, 01:54
That's because they're not working for an airline, they're working for VIRGIN.:yuk:

Tuck Mach
2nd Dec 2016, 20:27
"Be patient... HR are busy with the White Ribbon mass indoctrination at the moment, telling every white male that they are all violent misogynists while completely ignoring International Mens Day (which was on the 19th in case your own female dominated HR department missed it). Employing and retaining suitable staff is a distant priority."

A classic quote!

Airlines are these days tail wagging the dog. HR look for 'survival strategies' and that usually results in them meddling, taking over and wrecking somewhat robust process. It is the modern corporate, all tip and no iceberg..

Pilots ought remember:

In demographics is destiny...

The attempts to dumb down, control and denigrate the profession has consequence: Less people are learning to fly and those that are flying are aging.Those in Australia can source data and workplace demographic trends. The workforce is aging and globalisaiton has destroyed onshore job security and remuneration. The great part of it is that pilots can benefit from globalisation as the career path is not constrained by national borders. This means control is harder to implement and the power of seniority and the subsidiaries to cause the 'wage' tension (think Cobham at Qantas or JQ and Alliance at VAH) is declining. There are better and better contracts available. The Achilles heel of Australian airlines was always the good commuting contract.

Airline managers hate it, but eventually the path successive airline managers (no matter where they work) have taken flight crew terms and conditions will be addressed by the sheer number of retirements will mean opportunities for those still waiting. Supply will rise to meet demand when the price rises. Of course airline managers will spare no expense to deny this reality, 457 visas anyone??


Pilots are expensive to train
Not everyone has the skillset
HR generates ZERO revenue but costs a lot.
Workforce is aging

As many carriers are finding out, without pilots (and indeed operational staff) airlines find it increasingly difficult to generate revenue. All those buildings of HR and admin staff currently winding down for the Christmas break generate little in terms of revenue. It is the operational staff, including pilots that do that. those people have been maligned for too long.


HR control of recruitment is a survival strategy for an area of modern corporates shielding a hell of a lot of non-productive people ( unless of course paper generation is considered economic output) :E

Falling Leaf
3rd Dec 2016, 01:07
HR look for 'survival strategies'

Classic, and so true. Any competent manager should be able to hire and fire. The HR department is a luxury add on that is not required. Unfortunately HR (along with the executive management class and their servings the accountants) will get rid of everyone else first in order to keep their unjustified salaries in tact.

Popgun
3rd Dec 2016, 02:38
I agree with much of what Tuck Mach has written. However...

There are better and better contracts available

There are, but generally not in places considered by many Australians as desirable to live long-term, or commuting to work under contracts that do not have the backstop of employee-challengeable industrial relations laws championed by unions and arbitrated by a law-abiding umpire. So there is significant career risk in leaving for these jurisdictions...especially when you are young(ish) and have more than 5 years left before retirement.

Mostly these 'better and better' contracts are in the Middle East or Asia or working under the terms of a potentially rubbery contract. Often they are in an environment where you are tolerated and made to feel like a foreigner. Most pilots that I know place significant importance on having a professionally enjoyable atmosphere on the flight deck...especially on long haul.

These are major reasons why the ranks of Australian carriers have not been decimated by the growth in jet jobs in the Middle East and Asia.

I have friends and know of many pilots in these regions who desperately want to come home but feel trapped by the money they are earning and the fact that even if they are lucky enough to be successful then that position will be entry-level and of course at the bottom of the seniority list.

Most Australian pilots still place a VERY high value on living and working at home, under Australian IR laws with transparent seniority lists and the participation of unions in the workplace.

Now, if suddenly these jobs and commuting contracts were available with Western European or North American carriers? Well then I think the trickle of pilots leaving our shores could turn into a flood and our terms and conditions here would likely be driven up.

Until then, the 'pilot shortage' we often hear about doesn't apply so much to such a sought after location as Australia.

PG

KRUSTY 34
3rd Dec 2016, 20:17
Tuck Mach,

Love your work. Your insight into the abomination that is modern airline HR is truly enlightening.

Slippery_Pete
3rd Dec 2016, 21:48
Right on, Krusty.

The only thing Tuck Mach missed was forcing base transfers, and then sitting around wondering why all the pilots are leaving.

More HR genius.

SHVC
4th Dec 2016, 09:25
Please elaborate slippery.

I'm interested in your thoughts on this!

Brakerider
20th Dec 2016, 23:32
Is it likely hiring onto the 737 in Aus will ever happen again?

porch monkey
21st Dec 2016, 06:25
I would be in order Slippery one to give the whole story. The forced base transfers are because of the disappearance of the E jet from the company. many who are on the Ejet are fairly junior in the company. Since the company has a seniority system, unfortunately, base transfers, like promotions, are seniority based. Some are very happy to take commands via the seniority system, but rather reluctant to accept that that same system can at times bite them on the arse as well. Moral - Be sure you you understand the EBA you join on!!!!!

ihavelotsofquestions
27th Dec 2016, 22:35
Anyone hazard a guess as to whether VA will open up recruitment again in 2017?

Chadzat
28th Dec 2016, 01:59
Most definitely. ATR FO and B777 SO

slice
28th Dec 2016, 02:03
Probably. If Qantas takes a number of SOs off the 777 and some ATR guys jump ship as well. Certainly short on the 737, but almost all external recruitment seems to be SO and ATR positions (some external positions on 737 in NZ recently as well). Plus a trickle of retirements also.

thefeatheredone
28th Dec 2016, 04:28
Any ideas on which positions the interviews in late Jan. are most likely to fill?

Wiggley
28th Dec 2016, 04:41
Any ideas on which positions the interviews in late Jan. are most likely to fill?

If you've got an invite it should tell you on your career portal which position you're interviewing for.

thefeatheredone
28th Dec 2016, 04:46
True, poorly worded on my behalf.... are they looking at 777 spots more than 737? 50/50?

underfire
30th Dec 2016, 00:23
Interesting website on VA The VA Source - Virgin Australia News & Information (http://www.thevasource.com/index.html)

With Virgin America sold off, and Virgin Aus aircraft shuffle, difficult to see how long VAus will last.

http://www.afr.com/brand/chanticleer/virgin-privatisation-talk-hots-up-as-etihad-struggles-20161227-gtigph

Snakecharma
30th Dec 2016, 00:58
Out of interest what does the sale of Virgin America have to do with anything?

underfire
30th Dec 2016, 02:52
Out of interest what does the sale of Virgin America have to do with anything?

Only as the Virgin financials continue to falter, Etihad potentially moving out, and Singapore increasing shares. With the recent losses, it looks like VAus last ditch efforts to avoid privatization or assimilation havent really been working out.

The situation at Virgin America looks very similar to what is happening with Virgin Aus, especially with the recent aircraft situations. In addition, Singapore is accumulating common shares, which have lost over 50% of the value this year.

That is why the comparison.

BPA
30th Dec 2016, 05:42
Agree the sale of Virgin America means nothing as there was never any real connection between the two. Virgin Australia is expanding is relationship with Delta and in mid-2017 Delta and VA will share the same terminal in LAX (2 and 3).

BTW if you did further searching you would have found there is a Qantas source as well

The QANTAS Source | (http://theqantassource.com)

Most of the info on these sites comes from other sources and no 'ground breaking' info is on there.

Vorsicht
30th Dec 2016, 20:19
Moving to the Delta terminal is not a positive move. VA was there initially and it is an old and decrepit facility. Not sure about this time around, but last time there were only arrivals at that terminal and all departures we're from the North Complex in LA, which is about as far as you can get from 25R, so extensive taxi time. Currently operating out of the new Tom Bradley terminal which is the brand new purpose built international terminal with all the bells and whistles passengers would expect. My guess is that moving to Delta terminal is cheaper, not better.

BPA
30th Dec 2016, 21:41
Terminal 2 and 3 will be getting an upgrade as part of Delta move from 5. The plan is for all of Delta's partner airlines to operate from the upgraded terminals.

wheels_down
30th Dec 2016, 22:59
I found it odd that one has to check in at the Virgin America Terminal in LAX and then walk over to the TBIT to depart.

I thought Borghetti was trying to look after these Premium guests of his?

underfire
30th Dec 2016, 23:27
Agree the sale of Virgin America means nothing as there was never any real connection between the two.

I really dont think that you can say never on that one.

The whole VA and Tiger ownership and history is rather entertaining to say the least. With Tiger reporting a substantial profit and VA reporting a substantial loss, it is curious to see how they are working the books.

Cutting the E190 and ATR's for regionals?

Just some bizarre stuff going on.

morno
31st Dec 2016, 00:26
I wouldn't call it a substantial profit. And why does that not seem likely?

BPA
31st Dec 2016, 00:29
And Qantas did the same with Jetstar a few years back. Jetstar reporting substantial profits, meanwhile Qantas (international) was making a loss.

Majority of the back end support functions (flight planing/loading etc) are all done by Virgin Australia.

underfire
31st Dec 2016, 05:54
I just note Singapore accumulating..up to 26% plus.

Virgin America didnt want to be taken over....but Alaska grabbed them and will likely assimilate VA.

Berealgetreal
31st Dec 2016, 08:47
Tiger lost millions upon millions from the day it opened. Within 6 months of Virgin taking it over it was magically profitable. Pity that Midas touch can't be applied to other areas of the business!

On the topic of profitability, the word is the 737 has been making a profit for Virgin for 16 years straight now...

Happy to be corrected!

porch monkey
31st Dec 2016, 09:05
Not quite, but not far off.


The main reason for the Ejet demise is that a fleet of F100's or 717's can be operated cheaper. (but not by mainline.....) Read into that what you will........

Snakecharma
31st Dec 2016, 10:00
In the 2008 financial crisis the ejet was the only thing keeping the company afloat.

morno
31st Dec 2016, 10:32
Tiger wasn't profitable until the 2015-2016 FY. The take over started in 2013.

Probably much easier to make a smaller company profitable than a bigger one that is majorly in debt.

Berealgetreal
31st Dec 2016, 11:26
and what year was the full take over?
for $1

RAD_ALT_ALIVE
31st Dec 2016, 13:13
Really Berealgetreal???

Are you just posting to get a rise? Coz I'll happily bite...

Are you purposely ignoring the 100-plus million dollars of debt that VA took onboard from SQ (or whoever the Singaporean lords were) when they paid the solitary dollar?

Fool!

Chadzat
1st Jan 2017, 01:20
Actually that was used to buy Skywest RAD ALT.

Berealgetreal
2nd Jan 2017, 03:16
I'm not sure what you are referring to RAD ALT ALIVE. I was asking what year it was that the "$1" transaction took place nothing more.

Regardless, I'm pretty surprised at being described as a "fool" for doing so.

Can't think of ever insulting someone in 20 years of prune or in any other format for that matter.

atcapplicant16
3rd Jan 2017, 15:12
Hi just wondering if anyone can tell me what it's like to be a baggage check in /customer service for Virgin.
1. What is the job like
2. pros and cons of the job
3. Can you do part time
4. How do you find positions? Seek? Virgin website?
5. The approximate remuneration

Thanks in advance

Wiggley
25th Jan 2017, 09:16
I hear there are a number of interviews happening/coming up. Anyone know what sort of numbers they're looking for?

Any Pro's or Con's for the various fleets?

Brakerider
26th Jan 2017, 20:42
Can anybody give me an idea of the usual roster patterns for a VANZ 737 Pilot? I've heard they do a lot of trips from SYD, i.e. fly CHC-SYD then operate from SYD out to the islands for a few days, then back to CHC.

Is the position in any way commutable?

Is there any protection now for VANZ pilots to take VA slots above Tiger pilots? Or once 2018 hits, any new hire VANZ is behind every tiger pilot for a 737 F/O slot at VA?

big buddah
27th Jan 2017, 01:14
Nz bases are not commuting.
They do 1 day through to 6 day trips.
You will be at the bottom of the group list VAA, VANZ, Vara and tiger. It's currently a 30 month bond to Nz then move in the group of seniority.
You will be number 1700 plus for a move

KRUSTY 34
28th Jan 2017, 23:40
I think 2017 is going to be an interesting year, after speaking to a senior Captain yesterday.

Long service leave increasing exponentially, and potentially even more serious, the emergence of more commuting contracts with Chinese carriers. With the enormous requirements of the Chinese alone, we may see offers simply too good to ignore.

If some of the Middle Eastern carriers are forced to follow suit, will we see a race for what's left here in Oz?

Jeps
29th Jan 2017, 05:08
Krusty,

By race for what's left in oz do you mean the oz airlines will have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to get the remaining suitable pilots we have left? If so, I have heard strong echoes of the same sentiment.

Duck Pilot
29th Jan 2017, 06:27
The experience pool is drying up, time for QF to drop their educational requirements and focus more on experience and ability.

IsDon
29th Jan 2017, 20:31
The experience pool is drying up, time for QF to drop their educational requirements and focus more on experience and ability.

That's not going to happen. Australian airlines have enough candidates with the required educational minimums and experienced expats looking to come home. Why would they?

Maybe you should have listened to your Mum and studied maths and science to HSC level rather than leaving school early or choosing veggie subjects.

itsnotthatbloodyhard
29th Jan 2017, 21:52
time for QF to drop their educational requirements and focus more on experience and ability.

The word on the street is that in this brave new world of HR-led QF recruiting, they're favouring low-time applicants over more experienced ones from other airlines or the military. The reasoning being that a low-time bloke who's been scraping by in some low-paid job will be so grateful to have a job at QF that they won't ever rock the boat. In other words, they're prioritising industrial compliance over experience and expertise. :rolleyes: Good news for Virgin if it's true.

Hopefully this is nothing more than rumour, but it came from a credible source and was supposedly confirmed by a management type.

If it's true, I'm blaming IsDon. ;)

Slezy9
29th Jan 2017, 22:22
The word on the street is that in this brave new world of HR-led QF recruiting, they're favouring low-time applicants over more experienced ones from other airlines or the military. The reasoning being that a low-time bloke who's been scraping by in some low-paid job will be so grateful to have a job at QF that they won't ever rock the boat. In other words, they're prioritising industrial compliance over experience and expertise. :rolleyes: Good news for Virgin if it's true.

Hopefully this is nothing more than rumour, but it came from a credible source and was supposedly confirmed by a management type.

If it's true, I'm blaming IsDon. ;)
I can anecdotally back that up. I know of a few "interesting" people who have got interviews with Qantas while very few experienced military QFI's have done anything beyond stage 1.

morno
29th Jan 2017, 22:39
That's not going to happen. Australian airlines have enough candidates with the required educational minimums and experienced expats looking to come home. Why would they?

Maybe you should have listened to your Mum and studied maths and science to HSC level rather than leaving school early or choosing veggie subjects

And just how, IsDon, would that make me a better applicant when I finished Year 12 nearly 15 years ago, and I've had nearly the same amount of time since in the industry, having passed all the theory for a pilot license, as well as numerous type ratings, several thousand hours of flying experience and years of life experience?

What a load of crap.

morno

SandyPalms
29th Jan 2017, 22:43
No one seems to be able to find the right thread.

High_To_Low
30th Jan 2017, 00:19
Morno,

It's got next to nothing to do with what you studied...finishing High School and/or Tertiary education is used for two reasons:

1. Culling mechanism
2. To show an employer you have a certain level of dedication, motivation and aptitude beyond something aviation related.

I know (and knew back then) a lot of crap I learnt at High School and Uni has no relevance to the professional field I was pursuing but I did graduate highest in my year both in High School and University, not because I'm naturally smart but because I worked my ass off and tried to broaden my knowledge base....it reveals alot about a person's psych I would say....

34R
30th Jan 2017, 00:47
It's a culling mechanism and nothing else.

Anything they want to learn about your motivation/psych/crystal ball/tea leaves they use their psych test.

Now back to all things VA, recent interviews have given opportunities to a string of GA drivers who funnily enough came from similar backgrounds to a lot of VA's current drivers during the boom years. I would hardly call that scraping the bottom of the barrel!

Those guys and girls made a decent fist of it, and I have no doubt the new ones will as well.

Lots more positions to be filled.....

lee_apromise
30th Jan 2017, 03:30
We should do something like US.

Bachelor degrees required for majors. Such an easy filter.

Btw, 500 PIC can be substituted 500 ICUS as FO or not?

grrowler
30th Jan 2017, 03:51
How do you log ICUS as an FO?

lee_apromise
30th Jan 2017, 04:12
How do you log ICUS as an FO?

FO acting as PF logs as PIC/ICUS in FAA land. Other countries do it all the time too. Otherwise, how do you get ATPL if you got an airline job after getting your CPL? Don't know about Australia.

Tankengine
30th Jan 2017, 04:30
We should do something like US.

Bachelor degrees required for majors. Such an easy filter.

Btw, 500 PIC can be substituted 500 ICUS as FO

Why not? ;)
HR seems to think cadets with an arts degree are better than experienced pilots anyway. :(
An idiot filter would be great - but impossible.

havick
30th Jan 2017, 13:38
FO acting as PF logs as PIC/ICUS in FAA land. Other countries do it all the time too. Otherwise, how do you get ATPL if you got an airline job after getting your CPL? Don't know about Australia.

Not true. If you look at all the recruiting pages for FedEx, Delta, UPS etc pretty much all the decent companies only accept PIC time from 121 operators when you were actually left side captain/signing for the aircraft. They don't recognize FO time logged as PIC.

lee_apromise
30th Jan 2017, 13:50
Of course, everyone in the states knows that. FAA logbook does not have ICUS column. Hence SIC performing PF logs hours under PIC column. No idiot will claim this type of PIC hour as Part 121 PIC hours requirement. It is just for the purpose of meeting Part 61 requirement. But then again, one needs 1500 hours for 121 ops so nobody bothers with this kind of question.

Not true. If you look at all the recruiting pages for FedEx, Delta, UPS etc pretty much all the decent companies only accept PIC time from 121 operators when you were actually left side captain/signing for the aircraft. They don't recognize FO time logged as PIC.

VH DSJ
30th Jan 2017, 16:17
FO acting as PF logs as PIC/ICUS in FAA land. Other countries do it all the time too. Otherwise, how do you get ATPL if you got an airline job after getting your CPL? Don't know about Australia.

If you're talking about FAA regs, you can't get an airline job without 1500 hours anyway, of which most of that would be from single pilot part 135 or flight instructing. ie, real PIC and not your BS PIC/ICUS which doesn't exist.

lee_apromise
30th Jan 2017, 16:35
If you're talking about FAA regs, you can't get an airline job without 1500 hours anyway, of which most of that would be from single pilot part 135 or flight instructing. ie, real PIC and not your BS PIC/ICUS which doesn't exist.

Jeez, VH DSJ, if you are gonna brand me as BS, then at least get your facts straight. Have a read on PIC logging time ruling by FAA.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/sdl/local_more/avsafety_program/media/LOGGING%20PILOT-IN-COMMAND%20TIME.pdf

Apparently, what you think as BS PIC/ICUS exists in FAA land. By your logic, all FAA pilots are fraud because they could log safety pilot hours as PIC during their time building.

Double checked on this with FAA FSDO.

Duck Pilot
30th Jan 2017, 18:21
Thanks Don for your valuable comment with regards to my education, I will take your very insulting comments on board and crawl into my cubby whole and sulk for the rest of the day...

havick
30th Jan 2017, 18:45
In FAA land logging PIC time if appropriately rated and sole manipulator of controls (even if you're the FO) is technically allowed.

That being said pretty much all decent 121 carriers won't recognize any time logged as PIC while being an FO at a 121 carrier. They'll only recognize PIC time logged as aircraft captain. It's not hard for them to work out either as the ALPA seniority lists are available to most majors recruiting dept.

Brakerider
30th Jan 2017, 19:15
Who cares about FAA rules..this is the Virgin Australia thread.


On that note, what is the latest interview process? Phone Interview, HR, Sim? I have read no more tech questions. Apparently the sim is done in the E190?

IsDon
30th Jan 2017, 21:44
Thanks Don for your valuable comment with regards to my education, I will take your very insulting comments on board and crawl into my cubby whole and sulk for the rest of the day...

No problems at all. Always happy to help.

VH DSJ
31st Jan 2017, 00:13
That being said pretty much all decent 121 carriers won't recognize any time logged as PIC while being an FO at a 121 carrier. They'll only recognize PIC time logged as aircraft captain. It's not hard for them to work out either as the ALPA seniority lists are available to most majors recruiting dept.

That was my point to lee_appromise, and the majors in the US even point this out on their online recruitment page. I also doubt very much airlines in Australia would consider it. It's pretty much black and white in the logging of flight time here, that there can only be one PIC and not the 'Claytons' PIC you have in the US.

lee_apromise
31st Jan 2017, 00:29
That was my point to lee_appromise, and the majors in the US even point this out on their online recruitment page. I also doubt very much airlines in Australia would consider it. It's pretty much black and white in the logging of flight time here, that there can only be one PIC and not the 'Claytons' PIC you have in the US.

VH DSJ, your point taken and this is what I wrote above.

Of course, everyone in the states knows that. FAA logbook does not have ICUS column. Hence SIC performing PF logs hours under PIC column. No idiot will claim this type of PIC hour as Part 121 PIC hours requirement. It is just for the purpose of meeting Part 61 requirement. But then again, one needs 1500 hours for 121 ops so nobody bothers with this kind of question.

I just wanted to ask if 500 PIC can be substituted with 500 ICUS as PF. I didn't claim that it was PIC.

I rest my case.

Icarus2001
31st Jan 2017, 01:51
Just in case someone reads this and gets confused.

Pilot in command has nothing to do with handling the controls.

In Australia, at present.

Clear?

Brakerider
5th Feb 2017, 02:46
Any more info on the actual hiring process, not PIC logging in the USA?

Wiggley
6th Feb 2017, 20:52
Any more info on the actual hiring process

Submit your application.

Online numerical, verbal and spatial reasoning.

If you make it past that you get an invite to a two day assessment.

Day 1
Panel interview
Group Exercise

Day 2
Sim
Planning exercise

Or vice versa if there lots of applicants.

Reference checks.

das Uber Soldat
6th Feb 2017, 23:23
Ah but thats only the first stage of Wiggley.

After reference checks its then;

Day 10
Passed reference checks, indicate likely course start date of Day 60

Day 50
Nothing heard
Emails not responded to.

Day 60
Nothing heard.

Day 143
Call from HR, "sorry we had some sickness in the department, got us a bit behind, we'll let you know by Day 157

Day 157
Nothing heard

Day 265
Call from HR "Sorry we've been busy. We need to do a reference check again, please call your references to let me them we're calling within 3 days

Day 268
Nothing heard.

Day 347
Call from HR "Hi we've got another course date for you.. What do you mean you've taken a position with another carrier? Do you know how much of our time you've wasted?" *hangs up*

:ok:

Enjoy.

34R
7th Feb 2017, 02:48
Don't take it so personally Uber. You aren't the first person not to be the centre of the HR universe and you won't be the last.

It took over 700 days of being ignored before I got thrown a bone by my airline.... sometimes stuff just happens, particularly in this industry.

You obviously landed on your feet and dodged a bullet with VA anyway, so happy days!!

Jeps
7th Feb 2017, 03:23
Uber,

Did they seriously make the charge against you for wasting THEIR time? No wonder HR are considered in every industry as parasites.

das Uber Soldat
7th Feb 2017, 03:55
Yeh no stress 34R, as you say it all worked out ok.

framer
7th Feb 2017, 05:37
Having been on both sides of the table I can tell you that they ( airlines in general) don't give a toss about you until they desperately need you to keep their planes in the air.

Goat Whisperer
7th Feb 2017, 07:47
Having been on both sides of the table I can tell you that they ( airlines in general) don't give a toss about you until they desperately need you to keep their planes in the air.
7th Feb 2017 04:55

And VA mainline is very close to admitting they're in that situation, without a plan to get out.

Brakerider
9th Feb 2017, 04:49
Thanks for the info Wiggley. How long should one expect to wait from submitting their application to progressing to the next phase?

Scamp Damp
9th Feb 2017, 05:14
Apparently calls have been made with offers over the past few days....

Wiggley
9th Feb 2017, 05:15
Thanks for the info Wiggley. How long should one expect to wait from submitting their application to progressing to the next phase?
I've heard of some people progressing through quickly, others made it through to interviews after almost 12 months of nothing.

amateur
9th Feb 2017, 09:50
Does anyone have a real idea about how much a first year SO would actually earn inc allowances? The base salary would be around $72,000 minus super, which isn't great. I've crunched my own numbers based on allowances in the eba, but interested to hear what the average figure actually is...

Altimeters
9th Feb 2017, 21:02
The base salary will be going up regardless if and when this new EBA comes out (but I don't suspect it'll get voted up first go). Plus, considering a lot of our allowances are in USD and fluctuates, and depends on how much you want to spend while you're over there, bank on 5 trips per 56 days at $290USD per trip. :ok:

thefeatheredone
9th Feb 2017, 21:14
Any ideas on when the courses are due to start for those that have got through the current round of interviews? I heard that it will most likely be in the US due to busy SIMS here?

A-Thousand-To-Go
10th Feb 2017, 01:01
There will be a B777 course in April...

BPA
10th Feb 2017, 22:58
Amateur,

Anyone starting has a B777 SO will start on base pay of around $89000 (excluding super) if the new EBA is voted in. Throw in the overnight allowances and you will make over $100000.

Snakecharma
11th Feb 2017, 04:38
Be surprised if it gets over the line

kirkbridge
11th Feb 2017, 10:57
What a fantastic deal, especially for the a330 blokes. The chance of a yes vote is as likely as the second coming.

$88k for SOs unlikely. Best plan on $72k.

thefeatheredone
14th Feb 2017, 22:43
Is there much difference in the flying being based at Auckland vs Christchurch? Is it similar trips, destinations etc?

White and Fluffy
14th Mar 2017, 01:38
Job details - Expression of Interest - Fokker 100 First Officers | Virgin Australia (http://careers.virginaustralia.com/cw/en/job/498180/expression-of-interest-fokker-100-first-officers)

Are there no ATR FO's or 777 SO's that want to move to Perth?
Surely the cadets would be keen.

wheels_down
14th Mar 2017, 02:40
please provide a copy of your high school results
Is this common? I mean it's been probably 20 years for some I really don't see the point (let alone trying to find them)

Cunning_Stunt
14th Mar 2017, 03:43
Ok then. You write back to them and advise them you couldn't be buggered looking for them because you " don't see the point". That should fix 'em.

apache
14th Mar 2017, 09:30
I know of guys and girls with in excess of 10,000 hours, including jet time (both as FO and SO/ wide body/narrow body ) with multi crew command experience (turbo prop)who can't even crack an interview with VA!!!
Anyone got any ideas ?

KABOY
14th Mar 2017, 09:43
Anyone got any ideas ?

Yep!

Halve the hours, remove the considerable work experience and make yourself look like your are a keen GA/Regional pilot wanting to move up......

apache
14th Mar 2017, 09:52
Ok so....
Lie on the resume,
Falsify the logbook
Dumb down the real,life experience

They are PILOTS..... Not HR wannabes !

Capt Fathom
14th Mar 2017, 10:02
It has nothing to do with flying experience anymore!
It is all about satisfying the HR ego.
And every HR ego have their own take on what that involves.
It is a total lottery.

AerialPerspective
14th Mar 2017, 10:29
I know of guys and girls with in excess of 10,000 hours, including jet time (both as FO and SO/ wide body/narrow body ) with multi crew command experience (turbo prop)who can't even crack an interview with VA!!!
Anyone got any ideas ?
If experience is anything to go by it'll be because they're scared someone will enter the business that knows more than others already there and in charge... it's a characteristic of VA, they HATE people who know what they're doing... I know of many people who have been maneuvered out because they knew their stuff and obviously were too much of a risk in showing up those that don't, who are plenty.

John Citizen
14th Mar 2017, 12:40
I know of guys and girls with in excess of 10,000 hours, including jet time (both as FO and SO/ wide body/narrow body ) with multi crew command experience (turbo prop)who can't even crack an interview with VA!!!
Anyone got any ideas ?

Here's a great idea - join the "boys club" (cronyism/nepotism) :p

It always was a boys club.:D

How can there be any merit in a system that recruits GA pilots, with even less than 2000 hours flying single pilot light piston twins (eg BE76), but yet they overlook highly experienced jet/turboprop pilots ? :confused:

To make it even more confusing, some of these pilots were hired from one resume only through one of their mates, and then after an interview consisting of nothing more than a casual chat and basically when can you start. No aptitude testing, sim ride or tech questions. How can you can call this accurate screening ?

You might say experience isn't everything, and some of these highly experienced pilots might be unsuitable, but yet they cannot even get an interview to start with. :confused:

Snakecharma
14th Mar 2017, 23:37
You are a bit behind the times Mr Citizen

The interview process has had a panel interview and sim assessment for the last 8 or so years that I can recall and now includes a psych test and group exercise.

That all said, does it produce a better result than the convivial chat? Don't know, I have my suspicions.

As you allude to, getting the interview is the hardest part, though I am surprised that these days that is an issue.

Goat Whisperer
15th Mar 2017, 02:03
John Citizen et al:

Virgin can no longer offer pilot recruits a rapid path to command, nor realistically can it offer a brilliant controllable roster or world-class pay. Isn't it reasonable that the recruiting may lean towards the younger GA types who will more patiently sit in the 777 backseat or ATR right seat for 3 years THEN a long stretch in the right seat of the 737, possibly not at their preferred base???

I know 25 year old me would have put up with these things happily where 40 year old industry experienced me wouldn't deal well with it.

The 2000 hour GA/regional candidate is more likely to put in a few years. Those with thousands of hours of turboprop command won't enjoy sitting beside captains younger than them for 15+ years and will soon wander off elsewhere. VA currently can choose who it recruits. The pool is unquestionably drying up though.

Ten Two Hundred
15th Mar 2017, 02:49
I've witnessed first hand the result of no longer hiring the best candidate, but hiring the best candidate that suits the company's idealogy at the time.

Bonegi1
15th Mar 2017, 03:13
they HATE people who know what they're doing... I know of many people who have been maneuvered out because they knew their stuff and obviously were too much of a risk in showing up those that don't, who are plenty.

I know of several competent, well qualified managers who were pushed out for exactly that reason. An excellent training Captain who is now an associate professor and the guy who ran the human factors program just for starters ....

Open Descent
15th Mar 2017, 03:22
Avenues of entry into the company are S/O, 737 F/O NZ and ATR F/O.

External candidates are considered for the above positions after those that are eligible to do so under the GDOJ have indicated a preference.

There is clearly a breakdown in the how the applications are filtered because over the last six months it has been a struggle just to get a full quota of applicants to each assessment centre, so to hear that qualified people aren't even getting considered seems very strange. I suspect some of those that have been scheduled in for interviews have been given start dates elsewhere in the interim and have cancelled at the last minute, not surprising in the current environment.

The boys club comment is outdated, and the recruitment process itself has gone through quite a change over the last two years in terms of who is involved and who makes what decisions. Three out of four on the interview panel are always line pilots, as are of course the checkies that run the sim assessments.
No process is infallible and the occasional one might slip through to the keeper, but overall the pilot involvement is large with regards to who is and isn't successful, and the process compared to other airlines is not arduous.

There will be a steady requirement for crew this year, even more so if the predictions of a mass exodus to QF are realised.

Goat Whisperer
15th Mar 2017, 05:15
Avenues of entry into the company are S/O, 737 F/O NZ and ATR F/O.

Also Fk100 FO.

Open Descent
15th Mar 2017, 08:26
Also Fk100 FO

F100 FO isn't working for VA. Interviews for those positions will be conducted by the skywest side of the operation I would suspect.

coaldemon
15th Mar 2017, 08:30
If you think recruiting a 10,000 hour Jet Pilot into the back seat of a B777 is a good motivational fit you don't know much about recruitment. Open Descent is on the money for how it works.

Goat Whisperer
15th Mar 2017, 22:34
Fk100 FO position is recruited by VA, they will get slots on the Global Date of Joining List, and be merely 1600 numbers off a 777 command.

Snakecharma
16th Mar 2017, 01:16
1600, 100, same same

The guys on the bottom of the first page of the seniority list are now not senior enough for a 777 command.

Couldn't give them away a few years ago, same as the 330, but these days they are fairly hotly contested. The attrition rate isn't huge so the flow through from other fleets isn't big.

BPA
16th Mar 2017, 01:54
When you have narrow body captains bidding for FO slots on both the B777 and A330, anyone who is joining now will be 8- 10 years away from a right hand seat on the wide body fleet. And by the time their number comes up the current wide body fleet would have been replaced by another type(s).

The Bullwinkle
16th Mar 2017, 02:17
And by the time their number comes up the current wide body fleet would have been replaced by another type(s).
Or replaced by another Airline!

anonfly
22nd Mar 2017, 00:29
Any advice on how to upload school results for the F100 position?
Only place you can upload documents is where you attach the C.V. I'm thinking I'll just attached required documents to C.V as his seems to be the only option.
Also does anyone know how many pilots they are looking to recruit?
Any tips if I was to be a successful candidate in preparing for the selection process?
Thanks in advance.

DeanJude
23rd Mar 2017, 08:58
Any advice on how to upload school results for the F100 position?
Only place you can upload documents is where you attach the C.V. I'm thinking I'll just attached required documents to C.V as his seems to be the only option.
Also does anyone know how many pilots they are looking to recruit?
Any tips if I was to be a successful candidate in preparing for the selection process?
Thanks in advance.

Hey mate i just added another few pages to the resume with the information they requested as also couldnt figure anything else. Also does anyone know if anyone jas started to get interviews or dates etc. The job does close end of March so prob thinking after that date should hear something back.
Good luck to everyone

Username here
4th Apr 2017, 11:02
Anyone else get the email about the "ATR update?"

Livinthedream320
7th Apr 2017, 10:47
G'day All

Any info on what it's like to be NZ based on the 737 ?

Commuting to NZ from say Sydney or Brisbane, is it feesable ?

Rosters, What are they like days off etc ?

How many days away per trip ?

How long to command in NZ compared to VAA ?

skysook
7th Apr 2017, 12:06
New Zealand 737 Opportunities
G'day All

Any info on what it's like to be NZ based on the 737 ?

Commuting to NZ from say Sydney or Brisbane, is it feesable ?

Rosters, What are they like days off etc ?

How many days away per trip ?

How long to command in NZ compared to VAA ?

Commuting is possible. There is a good portion of crew that do it from Melbourne/Sydney/Brisbane and Adelaide. It's expensive and tiring but that will be your lifestyle choice.

Guaranteed 10 days off. Mixture of day returns, night returns, overnights, multi day trips with anything up to 6 days away. Most layovers are in Aus. Some in the Pacific islands and NZ. Be prepared to be away from home a lot!

Command is hard to say. The protected list is almost exhausted so very soon the next round of NZ commands will be open to the group.

Money is reasonable. Less tax in NZ but also less super. Only 4%. Good DTA on trips will top up base salary by 15-20k per year. 5 weeks A/L.

kowloonman
7th Apr 2017, 20:45
Just wonder anyone here is invited for 17-18/4 assessment? Many thanks!

anonfly
8th Apr 2017, 03:01
Just wonder anyone here is invited for 17-18/4 assessment? Many thanks!
Hey is this for the Perth F100 assessments? I haven't heard anything back as of yet. Good luck if you made the cut.

kowloonman
8th Apr 2017, 17:22
Hey is this for the Perth F100 assessments? I haven't heard anything back as of yet. Good luck if you made the cut.
Supportedly for B737NG Auckland base

anonfly
12th Apr 2017, 03:03
Anyone on here heard anything about the F100 positions that were advertised based in Perth?
Cheers

baron_58
21st Apr 2017, 02:41
Anyone heard any news on the VA F100 recruitment for Perth. It was mentioned that assessments would be in May

AerialPerspective
22nd Apr 2017, 04:09
Yes Density mate, the one and only ! Those days are gone, the HR twats need to justify there existence now, with questions like " can you give me a time ... and what was the outcome ". Please tell me you don't have a psych department in VA.
True, it's called targeted selection or TS and it's been around since the 80s... unlike a lot of the fads of the eighties like TQM, etc. it has not died a slow death. Can tell you from being on both sides it is a crock... it takes no account of a person who's work experience is known and it's major fault is also touted as it's major strength in that I've known people who could sell ice to Eskimos and they get through with shining colors. In my experience with recruitment, if they already have someone in mind and it's not you, the 'skilled' recruiter/HR person will write key things down that you might say inadvertently and will then put that back to you as being evidence of not quite what they were after to justify their decision. Many years ago I did two jobs at the same time, rather I was doing a job that had been split in two and when the restructure was over I got the lesser of the two because they felt I 'wasn't quite ready'. This despite much of the company and peers ticking the role I was expecting to get off because everyone reckoned I had it in the bag. They also told me the guy they eventually gave it to interviewed exceptionally well. Before they appointed him they asked me to continue doing both jobs (to which I replied no, I don't think I'm ready for it yet...). 3 months later, the guy that interviewed exceptionally assaulted a subordinate and was fired and I ended up getting the job. The interview and the targeted selection process was obviously flawed. The thing is they're looking for an easy answer... and they talk about TS as though it's a science and it does all the work for you all you have to do is ask the questions but it's not. Nothing beats looking at someones past performance and exercising some perception while interviewing. The rest to quote Kevin Pollack in A Few Good Men is just "smoke filled, coffee house crap".

Goat Whisperer
22nd Apr 2017, 05:05
For those curious, the recently announced commands show a minimum time to 737 command of 7.0 years from induction to command announcement. Training could be 1 year later with the backlog.

BPA
22nd Apr 2017, 09:11
7 years to widebody (A330) FO, 9 years to SY 737 command and 11 years for a BN 737 command.

Falling Leaf
23rd Apr 2017, 06:26
7 years to widebody (A330) FO, 9 years to SY 737 command and 11 years for a BN 737 command.

Those numbers are only valid for the people already in the system; those who joined 7-11 years ago. VA is no longer in a growth phase, if anything with the loss of the Ejet and reduction in ATR VA is contracting.

Goat Whisperer
24th Apr 2017, 01:23
Leaf... of course that is relevant to those already in the system, it's the only metric we have to go on. There's no other way to go on... weekly polls of who's planning on leaving/retiring? I would have answered differently on almost every poll.

When NZ 737 (soon) and VARA commands (not so soon) come into seniority system play the picture will only become less clear. That doesn't mean "today's time to command" isn't a valid metric to those contemplating joining the greater VA group.

Over the next couple of years whether VA is expanding, contracting or neither is difficult to judge, tbh. Are we talking capacity (ASK)? Probably slightly up. Hours flown? Down. Movement through the ranks? Massive. Compounded by drawing E190 and ATR pilots into Boeings as fast as simulator constraints allow. VA is opaque. 2 737s mothballed in Mel (one getting some attention this week), one delivered, E Jets leaving, possibly unrealistic flying scheduled for just 6 ATRs and the constantly varying Alliance capacity leased in. One 777 captain leaves and there's years of training required to move the 5 (minimum) seat/fleet changes that drives.

Berealgetreal
24th Apr 2017, 02:21
How long is a piece of string, its impossible to calculate.
One thing you CAN count on is more people leaving or retiring earlier than planned.

The one that I find most stunning is the pilot that gets checked to line on the 73 in the base of choice and weeks later resigns to go and fly in Asia. Bizarre.

Goat Whisperer
24th Apr 2017, 02:34
Taking a promotion when you know you're going to leave is symptomatic of resentment/dissatisfaction imo.

It certainly happens more often when morale is poor, as it generally is now.

There's more than one name on the recent promotion list that seems to be leaving.

There's no bond for command, so many take the valuable experience with them, knowing that by leaving the door will be shut behind them in any case.

wheels_down
24th Apr 2017, 06:41
They will put a bond on it if too many people start to take it and run. They are in financial ruin in all corners, not sticking up for management here, but the continued burden of unexpected costs will just sink the ship further.

Berealgetreal
24th Apr 2017, 06:47
but the continued burden of unexpected costs will just sink the ship further.

I don't endorsement costs are the problem somehow! Let not forget the 800 odd that forked out for their own.

The people I was referring to i think were bonded and must have paid to leave. Incredible.

wheels_down
24th Apr 2017, 07:27
DECs into China on 300k.

maggot
24th Apr 2017, 07:37
DECs into China on 300k.

*post tax


345678

airdualbleedfault
25th Apr 2017, 00:28
Enjoy China, even if the pollution doesn't kill you (and/or your family) you'll soon realise 300K is not nearly enough

The Bullwinkle
25th Apr 2017, 02:13
Taking a promotion when you know you're going to leave is symptomatic of resentment/dissatisfaction imo.

It certainly happens more often when morale is poor, as it generally is now.

There's more than one name on the recent promotion list that seems to be leaving.

There's no bond for command, so many take the valuable experience with them, knowing that by leaving the door will be shut behind them in any case.

And the company has nobody to blame but themselves.
They are more than aware that morale is low, but they are in absolute denial about the cause.
The middle management strut around head office in their pink shirts sipping lattes pretending that everything is fine and dandy.
The Executive management are too busy collecting their "Employer of choice" trophies with little regard for the fact that there is almost a "revolving door" of employees in and out.

They will put a bond on it if too many people start to take it and run. They are in financial ruin in all corners, not sticking up for management here, but the continued burden of unexpected costs will just sink the ship further.

Awesome! That should fix the route cause!
If Virgin was a great place to work, nobody would be leaving.
But because the company has absolutely zero regard for their employees, the staff are demonstrating the same level of regard towards the management.
The rot is well and truly set in and until JB goes it will only get worse, but the problem now is that even if he left tomorrow, the damage may be irreparable!

gtseraf
25th Apr 2017, 22:49
Bull

your post sounds like it could be applied to a contract operation flying 767 in Japan.

Goat Whisperer
10th May 2017, 02:48
Yikes... even JT is admitting he doesn't know how to staunch the flow of pilots, and aside from the ATR fleet, doesn't know where VA will get the 737 pilots needed.

The Bullwinkle
10th May 2017, 03:09
Yikes... even JT is admitting he doesn't know how to staunch the flow of pilots, and aside from the ATR fleet, doesn't know where VA will get the 737 pilots needed.

So obviously Virgin isn't the "Employer of Choice" any more.
JB should hang his head in shame for what he's done to the place.

Brakerider
10th May 2017, 03:17
I know some very good candidates getting knocked back in the process. Not sure what's going on up there anymore- the cadet program won't be able to save the day if that's what they're planning on.

Falling Leaf
10th May 2017, 07:21
The latest bid import to staff the 737 is apparently going down to 'the bottom of the group date of joining list'. This is unprecedented, and shows that they are scraping the barrel (numbers not quality) to keep the operation going. Suspect many people who have only just started on the 777 or ATR will be moving into the RHS of the bomber.

Brakerider
10th May 2017, 08:00
Why on earth is HR knocking back RPT turboprop captains then? Absolutely bizarre.

Chocks Away
10th May 2017, 08:54
What's the story with the F100 interviews?
Good gig & $$ there with an old Skywest feel still, or has the change to VARA altered things?
Sad to see VB lose its way and have a flood of resignations.
It's prudent for HR & Management to realise who really generates the income and treat them with the respect they deserve.
A problem seen in so many airlines currently!

Icarus2001
10th May 2017, 10:31
even JT is admitting he doesn't know how to staunch the flow of pilots, and aside from the ATR fleet, doesn't know where VA will get the 737 pilots needed.

Who is JT?

Where has this come from, an email, memo, speech?

The Bullwinkle
10th May 2017, 10:52
Who is JT?
The CEO in waiting. Hopefully we won't have to wait too much longer.
Nobody seems to know where that other bloke that calls himself the CEO is these days.

Open Descent
11th May 2017, 01:20
Internal email stating heavy recruitment for the next 9-12 months.

Icarus2001
11th May 2017, 01:25
Well if that is the case they had better start advertising. I know of two large jet operators who are finding in hard to recruit for the right seat. The story seems to be that the applicants have better offers.

Goat Whisperer
11th May 2017, 04:33
Update for those playing from home: The hold file comprises ten pilots, and two of those are bound for the soon-to-be-slashed ATR fleet. Need 180. Now.

Officially the only entry-level positions are NZ737/ATR FO/777 SO but I don't see how VA gets through this year without nearly 100 Aus 737 FO positions, with 737 hours rising 40% in two years.

Jeps
11th May 2017, 06:10
Update for those playing from home: The hold file comprises ten pilots, and two of those are bound for the soon-to-be-slashed ATR fleet. Need 180. Now.

How did they let it get this bad? Or am I asking a stupid question?

mikewil
11th May 2017, 07:00
Update for those playing from home: The hold file comprises ten pilots, and two of those are bound for the soon-to-be-slashed ATR fleet. Need 180. Now.

If this is true, how can they be turning down experienced turboprop guys?


Is this a case of HR getting their rocks off over impossible to pass (and totally irrelevant) psychometric testing?

Open Descent
11th May 2017, 07:02
No significant hiring from about 2012-1015 didn't help.
Suggested numbers are only to cover current shortfalls in resource planning, and given that we have had a net loss of airframes with the recent fleet decommissions, you can see how thinly pilots have been spread here.
With FO's and SO's still leaving for QF and Cptns still considering China, this shortfall will continue to grow.

I'm just wondering if the days of direct entry 737 may return?

Jbrownie
11th May 2017, 08:41
By looking on their careers page it looks like all cadetships from now!! Yippeeeee

Goat Whisperer
11th May 2017, 11:38
Open Descent:

I'm strongly of the opinion that recruiting straight to Aus based 737 RHS will be needed. Soon.

mikewil
11th May 2017, 12:10
I'm strongly of the opinion that recruiting straight to Aus based 737 RHS will be needed. Soon.

Would that be the plan with the latest round of cadets or will they be consigned to SO on the 777 or even shipped off to NZ?

A-Thousand-To-Go
11th May 2017, 22:15
While I tend to agree with Goat's opinion, I don't believe that it can be practically achieved without causing further disharmony among the troops. The GDOJ has a significant number of internals who are screaming for a chance on the B737 in Aus. Once those numbers settle down only then will we see any possible of direct recruitment into B737 AU positions.

IMHO - external recruitment will be for the B737 NZ, VAI B777 SO and VAA ATR FO positions. I think you'll find the cadets (in particular) will end up on the ATR.

Berealgetreal
12th May 2017, 00:06
You can't just switch GDOJ on and off when it suits you. It will undermine the entire system and open up to legal challenges.

Zero attempt being made to retain pilots. The focus is all on cadetships and hiring. The next stunt is the direct entry into the 737 carrot.

An application to Alliance would be the quickest route to command probably anywhere in the world at the moment.

davidclarke
12th May 2017, 00:39
84 days remaining for CASA to make a decision on whether the ATR is allowed to continue operating in Australia... might change the landscape. Alliance where are you?

Am I missing something?

Goat Whisperer
12th May 2017, 01:48
Thousand-to-go:

I don't disagree with you. VA will get to the bottom of the GDOJ list looking for 737 FOs, then look outside.

Exclude all the frozen applicants, those disinterested in changing bases and a few with poor check results and you won't get everybody. The Perth-based F100/A320 captains aren't likely to get too excited about 737 RH seats. Many NZ based pilots wouldn't want to uproot to Aus for the payrise. Especially after 10 minutes comparing rents/house prices and commute times in Sydney.

Mikewill: cadets still destined for 777 SO/ATR FO at this stage. Cadets are still a small part of VA's pilot needs.

Icarus2001
12th May 2017, 01:53
The focus is all on cadetships and hiring.

Is there much hiring though? Or do you mean coming soon?

Goat Whisperer
12th May 2017, 04:34
It's a process that has begun but will be a huge one. And little/no account is meaning made of the fact that attrition from both ends of the list will continue and accelerate.

At least someone seems to have noticed that a lot of the experienced trainers have retired/refleeted, and before too much training can commence, trainer training will take up scarce training resources.

Clear?

206greaser
13th May 2017, 01:34
External recruitment over the top of current crew will only drive further attrition (this may indeed be managements plan). There are a whole bunch of ATR folks from BN who are going to be over looked in this current import. So to hear of external recruitment to the 737 or even the 777 is extremely disappointing.

Cadets will be for the ATR and then down the road the 737. Good on them they're taking advantage of a ridiculous management plan. The multi command time will be the stumbling block for them.

Cheers,
Greaser

Goat Whisperer
13th May 2017, 06:34
206g... how is recruiting "over the top" of current crew. You join today, you're at the end of the list, your mate joins tomorrow, she's after you. Regardless of SO/FO, regardless of base or type.

There will be enough 737 FO jobs for everyone, but someone has to keep the 6 ATRs flying. And meanwhile they shuffle slowly up the fabled GDOJ list.

206greaser
13th May 2017, 07:21
Well Goat, I would say it's "recruitment over the top" if you have externals taking positions in front of current ATR crew. That is positions they have bid for but will not be awarded as "management" require them to remain on the ATR. Why not recruit to the ATR?

Icarus2001
13th May 2017, 09:04
Why not recruit to the ATR?

hahahahah they did

206greaser
13th May 2017, 09:38
5? Yeah that should fix it...

Open Descent
14th May 2017, 02:14
This is the problem QF are currently facing as well. Internal candidates wanting to go to mainline are being held up because of the company not wanting to completely drain any one particular resource group.

It happens...

Goat Whisperer
14th May 2017, 02:16
Why not recruit to the ATR?
13th May 2017 06:34

How do you recruit the 150-180 737 FOs needed through a fleet of 6 turboprops?

There will be enough 737 jobs for the existing ATR pilots, and promotion/basing opportunities will come up earlier for them than for any subsequent new hires.

If you think you'd be better off taking a direct 737 job next year than starting soon on the ATR/777 you may not understand the GDOJ list.

Goat Whisperer
14th May 2017, 02:18
True, Open Descent, but at VA the pain of waiting on your turboprop job is salved by the GDOJ list. From what I understand QLink DH8 pilots don't progress up the Qantas list like ATR/F100 pilots shuffle up Virgin's list.

havick
14th May 2017, 03:46
True, Open Descent, but at VA the pain of waiting on your turboprop job is salved by the GDOJ list. From what I understand QLink DH8 pilots don't progress up the Qantas list like ATR/F100 pilots shuffle up Virgin's list.

How does that work for the guys "stuck" on the ATR as others have put it? I guess they continue to build up seniority on the list but do they get bypass pay or 737 rates if they could have bid and held the 737 FO slot, but instead required to stay on the ATR due to company staffing requirements?

If they do get bypass pay then that's great, if not then it's kinda a sucky deal that new hires can get into the 737 ahead of them. Building seniority on a list but without the pay is a shitty consolation if that's how it does in fact work.

Icarus2001
14th May 2017, 04:36
How do you recruit the 150-180 737 FOs needed through a fleet of 6 turboprops?
Is that a realistic approximation of numbers required? If so they are going to be in a world of pain.

coaldemon
14th May 2017, 05:12
It isn't a realistic number. It is more like 50 from what I have been told although I have a feeling that it is a moving feast for poor old VA and would change on any given day.

Open Descent
14th May 2017, 09:47
The company are attempting to interview around 180 by the end of the year. Working on average success rates in the interview process, they are hoping that will yield around 100 odd new pilots.

It doesn't mean they will get them but it's what they are aiming at, knowing full well the string of resignations will continue throughout the year and well into next if QF keep putting people on.

As far as the VARA pilots progressing onto the 737, the company are requiring that they be interviewed and assessed in the sim before allowing them their GDOJ number to afford them a place on the jet. Given all of Qantas's subsidiary pilots are required to do the entire process as well, it's not an unusual request.
Understandably this takes time, and any VARA pilot delayed movement to the 737 will not find themselves junior to any direct hires should the later begin before them.
As Goat Whisperer has previously mentioned, there will be a huge requirement for 737 drivers over the next couple of years, so provided they meet the company standard they will move across at some stage.

wishiwasupthere
14th May 2017, 10:16
The only advertisement on their website is for cadet pilots, so how can DE apply? Or are they interviewing off previous applications?

Goat Whisperer
15th May 2017, 00:01
I stand behind the 150-180 figure. That's just 737 FOs. Some of which will come from ATR, some from 777, a few from NZ, then when those ranks have been exhausted, some from off the street.

If you think that by taking an ATR position you have been so disadvantaged that you deserve bypass pay you may not be a suitable candidate for this position or this organisation. The ATR FO will get the chance to bid to 737 and get a desired base ahead of a later hired DE 737 FO.

My advice is simple: if you wish to join VA as a pilot, apply soon and take the first suitable job you are offered.

If the ATR is somehow beneath you, I advise not to accept a position on that fleet. Try your luck for DE 737 in 2108 and take a seniority number behind all of us.

I look forward to spending much of my 2017 and 2018 training ATR capts/FOs/777 SOs onto the 737NG. Hopefully I won't have to do the same with the MAX.