Virgin Australia recruitment

[havick]

I stand behind the 150-180 figure. That's just 737 FOs. Some of which will come from ATR, some from 777, a few from NZ, then when those ranks have been exhausted, some from off the street.

If you think that by taking an ATR position you have been so disadvantaged that you deserve bypass pay you may not be a suitable candidate for this position or this organisation. The ATR FO will get the chance to bid to 737 and get a desired base ahead of a later hired DE 737 FO.

My advice is simple: if you wish to join VA as a pilot, apply soon and take the first suitable job you are offered.

If the ATR is somehow beneath you, I advise not to accept a position on that fleet. Try your luck for DE 737 in 2108 and take a seniority number behind all of us.

I look forward to spending much of my 2017 and 2018 training ATR capts/FOs/777 SOs onto the 737NG. Hopefully I won't have to do the same with the MAX.

Think you're misinterpreting what I'm asking. I'm wondering if the current guys on the ATR get bypass pay if they're already on the ATR and guys get hired externally onto the 737?

[grrowler]

Not sure what the VARA EBA says about this, but the narrow body EBA has no bypass pay. You are frozen on type for 30 months from check. It can be waived after 2 recurrent checks if there are no suitable non frozen applicants on the pilot list.

[coaldemon]

I believe it is in the VARA EBA but not the VAA one as Grrowler has stated. Would it be enforceable across the VAA EBA from VARA? I think not industrially.

[206greaser]

Anyone complaining about flying the ATR would surely be in the minority, and you'd have to be crazy to turn it down hoping for a DE 73 spot in in 2108 (or any other year). Also with the very low numbers bidding for the New Zealand spots that would indicate no one really cares about externals there either. However when it comes to Australian based flying there would be quite an uproar if they hired externally to fill those spots bypassing those already on the GDOJ with bids in the system. Just a humble opinion...

Anecdotally from what I hear, Goats estimates of the crew shortfall would be bang on the money. Of course I don't have a dog in this race...

[Goat Whisperer]

Is it just me who thinks that the discussion around paying ATR pilots 737 wages because they can't fly 737s YET but would like to is ludicrous? I'd like to fly an A330, but I don't demand A330 pay while I'm waiting. Why not pay them 777 check capt pay?

[Falling Leaf]

Goat, I think the argument about bypass pay if for those ATR pilots who have the GODJ seniority to go to the B737, but won't be released (otherwise there would be zero pilot's to fly the ATR). So bypass pay becomes a reasonable proposition if anyone junior, or externals are going to be offered 737 positions.

[BPA]

Is it just me who thinks that the discussion around paying ATR pilots 737 wages because they can't fly 737s YET but would like to is ludicrous? I'd like to fly an A330, but I don't demand A330 pay while I'm waiting. Why not pay them 777 check capt pay?

Agree, the Ejet pilots never demanded/ expected bypass pay (even those staying on type to the end).

My understanding is the ATR pilots can remain on type and move to Sydney or Canberra (if based in Brisbane) or bid across to the B737 (FO) / B777 (SO). It's up to the individual to decide what they want to do. Apparently there is also a 12 month commuting offer on the table for those who stay on type and will be forced to move when the Brisbane base closes.

[Lack of interest]

Many of the BNE ATR drivers were happy on the ATR and many did not want to bid across to the jets. A large percentage have already flown jets for other operators already. Nothing special. Many of us chose lifestyle over equipment.

VA have decided to close the BNE base and many were then forced to evaluate what is best for them and their families. With the BNE base closing, only SYD and CBR bases are offered on the ATR, however, SYD isn't really an option for most because there will only be 6 captains and 6 FOs there. Many do not want to go to Canberra and with it not being a jet base, will have to move again when the company finally releases them. Due to this, a number of pilots have asked for voluntary redundancy, however, the company will not entertain this.

The BNE ATR pilots have been forced to bid for jet positions. Moving across to the jet isn't that straight forward. Up until recently, psychometric testing, an interview and a sim check were required. The interview consisted of nugget questions such as "why do you want to work for Virgin"! The psychometric testing has since been dropped and apparently the interview now is more aligned to recognise that the pilot they're interviewing is already on the VA AOC, under the VA training and checking system and already flies VA passengers!

The commuting offer is indeed for 12 months, however, that's not the full story. The original commuting offer was just duty travel, no accommodation, no transport and no allowances. The unions dug their heels in and now BNE based ATR people can commute for 12 months but they will not receive any transport, accommodation or allowances after the beginning of November, however, duty travel will be provided - this will make reserve duties costly after November.

Recruiting externals on to the 737 ahead of ATR pilots has nothing to do with who flies a jet first. It's to do with basing. A BNE 737 base is some years away for ATR people based on the GDOJ. Most of the ATR pilots want to operate out of Sydney or Melbourne. Places in these bases are limited. SA himself wrote an email to the ATR group explaining that if we didn't bid on this current round then only NZ and Perth are likely for us in the future, so we placed our bids. We were told at this point that they would move us off when they could and some courses wouldn't be planned until next year. Fair enough we all thought, at least we will know where we are going and can either commute for the year or make short term accommodation provisions.

Again with VA, this isn't the full story. We have since been told that VA will only release 20 ATR pilots off of the ATR. The company said this will not be based on GDOJ but rather based on who has completed their jet assessments already. This was a clever ploy because generally many of those who have completed their assessments are down the GDOJ list and aren't even in BNE. The senior guys and gals in BNE were happy there and have not yet completed their assessments. This is an underhand tactic to keep all of the experienced people on the fleet. I believe as of the last day or two that the unions are still in negotiations to have VA actually follow the EBA and hence not releasing the newest bid awards.

The VARA EBA was agreed for VA ATR pilots. Our EBA which VA agreed upon has the provision for bypass pay. Put simply if the company decides to hold a pilot back on a position when his or her GDOJ number comes up then they receive bypass pay for that position! It is their turn to earn that salary and are being held back for no fault of their own. It becomes doubly frustrating at the prospect of external candidates lower down the list not only taking a preferred base but also earning more in the process. The argument about getting 777 captains pay is absurd and no one is asking for more than they are entitled to, so please stop with the sensationalism.

If the company want to keep experience on the fleet then they should simply recognize it and reward it. Pay bypass pay to those eligible to move, give course start dates and bases to pilots now so they know where they'll be in 12 or 18 months. Allocate the more favourable bases to those in order of GDOJ ahead of externals even if they have to stay on the ATR for 12 or 18 months. Put all new hires mandatorily onto the ATR where they have the choice to upgrade or move onto other fleets as their seniority allows.

[havick]

Goat, I think the argument about bypass pay if for those ATR pilots who have the GODJ seniority to go to the B737, but won't be released (otherwise there would be zero pilot's to fly the ATR). So bypass pay becomes a reasonable proposition if anyone junior, or externals are going to be offered 737 positions.

^^^^This is what I was trying to say. Not that I particularly care at all as I work in a different continent.

[Falling Leaf]

Great post 'Lack of Interest', obviously from someone at or near ground zero...

VA have demonstrated again and again that they will do what ever is expedient and convenient for them, regardless of what the EBA says.

The unions have also demonstrated time and again they will do whatever is convenient for them. Example, the AFAP's treatment of E-jet pilots during the so called 'de-commissioning' process has been nothing short of reprehensible. Happy to throw a section of the pilot group under the bus to further their own interests.

[Bluewhine]

Without trying to sound negative to the ATR group, I think it's a pretty unrealistic expectation that all displaced pilots would receive a 737 job, I thing the reality of the situation is that a significant proportion of the pilots can expect to be 777 SOs before getting into a LH seat of a 737. It's unfortunate and I understand the situation has been forced upon the majority but that's how the GDOJ works, there are still people with higher seniority bidding for east coast 737 jobs.

[porch monkey]

"reprehensible?" Help me out here, in what ways? And what did Vipa do differently? What would you have done, within the confines of the current EBA?

[Lack of interest]

Without trying to sound negative to the ATR group, I think it's a pretty unrealistic expectation that all displaced pilots would receive a 737 job, I thing the reality of the situation is that a significant proportion of the pilots can expect to be 777 SOs before getting into a LH seat of a 737. It's unfortunate and I understand the situation has been forced upon the majority but that's how the GDOJ works, there are still people with higher seniority bidding for east coast 737 jobs.

The ATR pilots or at least the ones I have spoken with would completely agree with this. No one would dispute having to move to Perth or NZ on the 737 or become 777 SOs, if they want to bid off of the ATR if that's all their seniority allowed; however, in the last import the company decided that GDOJ was irrelevant (still under negotiation I believe) and that external hires could potentially come in and take what east coast bases are available ahead of group pilots and earn more in the process.

Seniority is sacrosanct and the EBA is very precise on this, however, VA true to form, believe that they can bend and twist around the agreement, the agreement that they signed, as they see fit.

Managemt are at a loss as to why attrition in the company is at an ever increasing level. It's beyond me how they think that alienating large swathes of the pilot body is an effective retention strategy.

It is simple, the BNE ATR base is to close, pilots and their families are to be displaced. All VA have to do is honor the EBA, the agreement that they signed.

[skysook]

With all due respect to the VARA pilots. You weren't on the GDOJ list 2 years ago. You didn't decide to join the group when you started with Skywest. You're only part of the group by default and now you're demanding 737 East coast bases or bypass pay in lieu? Have a good look at yourselves and where you're at. Be thankful for the win that you got (joining the group at the expense others that lost out). If the same thing happened at Qlink you can bet your ass they'd all be on the street! Let the bid import run its course and stop trying to take a mile after you were given an inch.

[Falling Leaf]

The Feds were very quick to set in stone what would happen come the day they ever replaced the 330 and 777 with a single wide-body type. Base protection I seem to recall. No-one would be displaced, everyone keeps their position and base.

As fast as they were doing this, they were ensuring that the E-jet would be treated as a 'retirement', not a 'replacement' (excuse me if the definitions are not correct, I deleted that email a long time ago in disgust), even though the company was touting that 'all E-jet flying would be replaced by the 737 ...'

To the Feds credit, they saw the lie for what it was.... the 100 seater capability was been retired from Virgin, not replaced, out shoring our jobs to other entities in a direct breach of the EBA.

It was also said the company were happy to keep E-jet pilot's in their bases, but this was quickly turfed by the union to allow 737 commuters to get back to Brisbane.

What would I have done differently? Perhaps called out the company on their blatant lies. Done a little research about what was claimed and what eventuated in WA (all E-jet flying will be done by the 737...), and how that is all just replaying now on the East Coast.

I understand the constraints of the EBA, but it seems only one side has to live under these restraints.

[havick]

With all due respect to the VARA pilots. You weren't on the GDOJ list 2 years ago. You didn't decide to join the group when you started with Skywest. You're only part of the group by default and now you're demanding 737 East coast bases or bypass pay in lieu? Have a good look at yourselves and where you're at. Be thankful for the win that you got (joining the group at the expense others that lost out). If the same thing happened at Qlink you can bet your ass they'd all be on the street! Let the bid import run its course and stop trying to take a mile after you were given an inch.

I think I'm the only one on here suggesting bypass pay, I don't fly for virgin/vara or in Australia anymore nor would I want to, so don't paint vara guys with that brush based on my own opinion.

I don't know the ins and outs of your Eba and seniority list hence why I asked the question. Though I do find it funny on one hand when people tout the seniority/union line then on the other hand drop other guys like a sack of **** even if they've been stapled to a seniority list. You can't have it both ways, you either run with a seniority based system or you don't.

[porch monkey]

I think you're being a bit unfair to claim that the Feds were "ensuring" anything. Perhaps you've heard the term "pick the battles you can win". That wasn't one of them. In any case, while most of us knew what the real intent from the company was, and could see it for the crap it was, knowing is one thing, proving is another. Calling them out on it was not going to change the outcome. How could it? Too late after the fact. There are plenty of failings all round in this circus. The last thing we as a workforce need is this bull**** infighting. That is simply handing the company the tools to beat us with. But, what the f@ck would I know.

[Bluewhine]

You can't have it both ways, you either run with a seniority based system or you don't.


Exactly............

[Chadzat]

Skysook I suggest you read Lack of Interests post again very carefully. This is the common mood and thought process on the line on the ATR at the moment. No ATR pilot is demanding anything other than The Company should stick to its word and the EBA provisions. Also no ATR pilot is demanding to be placed ahead of another VA pilot who is higher on the GDOJ list, only what they are entitled to get based on their relative GDOJ position.

Its frustrating to see at times like this group pilots can be lured into attacking each other when it is the Companies continued poor management that is the root cause of these problems.

[Lack of interest]

With all due respect to the VARA pilots. You weren't on the GDOJ list 2 years ago. You didn't decide to join the group when you started with Skywest. You're only part of the group by default and now you're demanding 737 East coast bases or bypass pay in lieu? Have a good look at yourselves and where you're at. Be thankful for the win that you got (joining the group at the expense others that lost out). If the same thing happened at Qlink you can bet your ass they'd all be on the street! Let the bid import run its course and stop trying to take a mile after you were given an inch.


No one is demanding anything. Many are simply leaving. We are respectfully requesting that established group processes and agreements be followed.

So in your little world, even though our seniority numbers are now eligible for east coast bases, we should be happy that externals or those lower on seniority may be placed over us just because we have been on the GDOJ list for 2 years? When we reach 3 years would you be happy then if we are eligible to bid or would you still prefer external candidates or those lower in seniority be given preference? No one is demanding east coast bases. It's simple, if the seniority number allows an east coast base then it should be allocated. If it only allows a NZ or Perth base and the pilot wants to move off the ATR, then that will be their allocated base, no more and no less.

It seems that you have no problem with an agreement between employer and employee being consistently ignored just because we have not been on the list for a period of time predetermined by you. I think you need to take a good look at yourself.

[Falling Leaf]

I think you're being a bit unfair to claim that the Feds were "ensuring" anything. Perhaps you've heard the term "pick the battles you can win". That wasn't one of them.

Maybe to both. I'm looking forward to the battle that can be won.

[grrowler]

The pilots can't even win the battle for something resembling food in the crew "meals" - I wouldn't hold my breath...

[porch monkey]

FL, so do I......:(

[BPA]

Lack of interest, thanks for your post.

Regarding your comment that most of the ATR pilots want Sydney or Melbourne, then why don't they take the Canberra base and commute from either Sydney (driveable) or Melbourne and bid for a Sydney or Melbourne B737 FO slot? There have been a number of pilots who live in Canberra and commute to Sydney, so the reverse could be done. Given the amount of movement over the next few years most would end up on the B737 within the next 12-18 months. And it would mean only one move from Brisbane to either Sydney or Melbourne.

The ATR pilots are not the first pilots who have to move base to keep their jobs. During the GFC a number of Brisbane B737 FOs were forced to move to Sydney to keep their job. And don't forget there has been a large number of Sydney based B737 Captain's who have been commuting from Brisbane for 9+ years, while waiting for their Brisbane slot to come up.

With regards to your comment about the email stating that if the ATR pilots don't bid in the next import then NZ or Perth are the only likely bases, well the remaining Ejet pilots that haven't put a bid in have been told the same and that's the reality. If you don't bid, the East Coast slots will go to those next on the GDOJ or to externals, as the company needs to fill the slots.

[Lack of interest]

.............

[Lack of interest]

Hi BPA, I am sure that many of the pilots are looking at that as an option, many are also looking to leave to pastures new. The trouble is we don't know if we are likely to get either Sydney or Melbourne in the future as they bases may be potentially allocated to others outside of seniority.

We understand that many before us have gone through base closures, I don't want to give too much away about my personal circumstances but can assure you I've been through similar and worse. People aren't too happy about having to move but realize it's a company decision, the upset is over the potential allocation of preferential bases outside of the GDOJ list. If the company simply sticks to this list and process, they would irradiate a lot of the ill sentiment. If they want to retain people on the ATR then they should recognise and reward this. Surely it'll be cheaper and less disruption for everyone if they simply incentivised those that they want to retain on the ATR. They have done this already with the check captains I believe. Offer the crew a base on the equipment they have bid for now even if it won't be active for 12 or 18 months in accordance with their GDOJ number. I must reiterate the point, nobody and I mean nobody on the ATR believes in special treatment or an allocation outside of seniority. All we want is for VA to stick to their word just once and honour the EBA that they agreed upon! Allocate in accordance with bids and seniority and incentise those that they want to retain on the ATR. It is a simple as that.

[Interceptheading]

Walk up to any gate with your Nav bag and heart beat.

[Lack of interest]

Absolute Rubbish.[/QUOTE]

This simple statement of yours tells me that you weren't at the interviews and you weren't at the meetings where this was recognised and management promised to rectify questions such as those.

[206greaser]

Skysook takes the most arrogant post of the year!! It's only May and it's gonna be hard to beat that! Bravo!

Their EBA is available on your iPad. Perhaps read it before you rip the folks on it a new one for applying it?

[Chadzat]

What a pleasure it will be for ATR guys to fly with you interceptheading. Im sure you will put them in their rightful place......

[Berealgetreal]

My understanding is that if you are 'frozen' due training bond the you don't have a dog in the race and someone junior to you can and will trump you. This applies to all pilots.

In 2010, GFC displaced pilots on the Ejet had new hires come in directly onto the 737. That was a different EBA and era. Within 6-12 months I think most ended up back on the 737 if they wished to go to it.

I don't think there is much point in an us and them type thread as it's not reality on the line, were all the same.

I suspect most ATR pilots will indeed get their chance at the 73. Tiger and VANZ are losing pilots and most VAA guys aren't interested so you might find yourself in a good position sooner than you might think.

Having said that, you have to wonder why the ATR is being kept given all the issues and for such a small fleet.

All the best.

[SHVC]

what needs to be asked is, How has Virgin F%$ked everything up so majorly. everything they touch turns to s%$t

[mikewil]

Can anyone shed any light on the psychometric testing that Virgin uses these days and if there are any practice materials you recommend?


Feel free to PM me.

[skysook]

206greaser

Last time I checked the VARA EBA there was something in there about no requirement to release more than 10% of pilots to the mainline operation per year. Assuming this is to prevent crippling the ATR operation. Perhaps this is being applied or needs to be applied in this instance. Any remaining vacancies to be offered to more junior pilots and externals. Is this not complying fully with the EBA?

[206greaser]

Yeah that's right Skysook I've read that too. It's my understanding that management said they'd not apply the cap due to a significant need for crew on other fleets. it makes no sense to apply a cap and keep crew on a fleet that is more than halved and then have to hire externally. I mean that's my thinking, but then I have nothing against ATR pilots...

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

Virgin will eventually go back to being the pilots job of choice. It's better than having to wear a white hat...
😂 Really?! It's a hat dude. Had a look at the share prices / balance sheets / future prospects recently?
I know what color hat I'd rather be wearing.

[Tuner 2]

😂 Really?! It's a hat dude. Had a look at the share prices / balance sheets / future prospects recently?
I know what color hat I'd rather be wearing.

Virgin was once the 'pilot job of choice'??

[DeanJude]

Can anyone shed any light on the psychometric testing that Virgin uses these days and if there are any practice materials you recommend?


Feel free to PM me.

Hey mate you found any info been chasing things up for the testing. Been doing SHL examples only.

[The Bullwinkle]

Virgin was once the 'pilot job of choice'??
Yep, but that was a long time ago, and it never will be again!
Those days are dead and gone. :sad:

[Tubman601]

It's all downhill once the company and the unions throw the seniority list out the window.

[Jet Man]

It's all downhill once the company and the unions throw the seniority list out the window.

Why is that?

[Interceptheading]

Why is it bad to go out side seniority:ugh::ugh:

Seniority system is the glue that holds an airline together, it's the only reason pilots stick with a particular airline. Once you have it you seldom want to give it up. If Virgin wanna go outside the seniority list it's a very slippery slope especially when Virgin pilots are already looking elsewhere due to hugely expired EPAs !!

The biggest problem with Virgin are the unions.... or lack of !!

[Icarus2001]

Aren't ATR and newish SOs type frozen? So if jobs came up now on B737 then they could not apply because of the type freeze, therefore not outside of seniority list bidding?

[skysook]

There seems to be a big focus on the seniority system and that positions should be allocated based strictly on GDOJ number. Don't forget 2 simple facts.

1. There is a 10% cap per year on the release of VARA pilots to the jet fleet. The company has full rights to apply this. This is in accordance with the VARA EBA.

2. There are many pilots on the list that are still type frozen. Therefore, they are ineligible to be awarded a position.

So for those that are complaining about more junior pilots or externals potentially being awarded positions ahead of you. I suggest you revisit these 2 simple facts.

[Jet Man]

Why is it bad to go out side seniority:ugh::ugh:

Seniority system is the glue that holds an airline together, it's the only reason pilots stick with a particular airline. Once you have it you seldom want to give it up. If Virgin wanna go outside the seniority list it's a very slippery slope especially when Virgin pilots are already looking elsewhere due to hugely expired EPAs !!

The biggest problem with Virgin are the unions.... or lack of !!

That's rather a pilot-centric view of how an airline runs!
I think Virgin Australia has much larger (business-centric) problems at present!

Virgin Australia has been known to relax the type freezes when there are no suitable internal candidates.

[morno]

Seniority in Australia is also what keeps many very qualified and experienced pilots from around the world (ie. Australian expats) who could bring a lot to the system, from coming back to Australia into suitable roles (ie. Commands and Check and Training roles), all because if that very experienced pilot wants to come back to Australia, they are demoted to a First Officer (or Second Officer in Qantas' case!).

Seniority works to a point, but it's a system that's still not in the best interests of the company in terms of recruiting the best people for the job into the most appropriate roles.

[ElZilcho]

Seniority in Australia is also what keeps many very qualified and experienced pilots from around the world (ie. Australian expats) who could bring a lot to the system, from coming back to Australia into suitable roles (ie. Commands and Check and Training roles), all because if that very experienced pilot wants to come back to Australia, they are demoted to a First Officer (or Second Officer in Qantas' case!).

Seniority works to a point, but it's a system that's still not in the best interests of the company in terms of recruiting the best people for the job into the most appropriate roles.

True, but that same seniority system also keeps a lot of the experience in the Airline.

Why sit on the seniority list for 25+ years waiting for a widebody command when you could run off overseas for 10 and come back as a DEC?

Sure, abolishing seniority might afford them to hire DEC's out of the sandpit, but how much turnover would they have in the SO/FO ranks as Pilots flock overseas for some command time, sick of being overlooked in favor of returning expats?

Slippery slope in my opinion.

[Berealgetreal]

skysook is correct.

The question beyond this issue is: how do you retain people on that type when the likes of QF are recruiting? I'm told turnover isn't as much of a problem as the pilots think it is. Having said that, experienced well trained crews I think are better than constant turnover. Cadets is one answer.

I'd say cashflow is the real "glue". Watch how quickly things come "unstuck" without it..

[Tommy Bahama]

The backstabbing, lies, brown nosing and greasy pole climbing that goes on at Virgin (and probably other places also) is bad enough with pseudo GDOJ system that is in place now......

Without it, the behaviour of those that think the rules apply to everyone else except them would be even more disgraceful.

Seniority is the best bad system.

[neville_nobody]

Seniority works to a point, but it's a system that's still not in the best interests of the company

In the long run seniority works more in favour of the company than it against it.

[mates rates]

Tommy Bahama is correct.Seniority is not the best system,but it is the best system available for the reasons given above.

[t_cas]

Like it or not.

Seniority is the best speed hump to mitigate stupidity*.

(*stupidity being pole climbing or what ever creative circumstance presents itself.)

[206greaser]

Skysook, could you please go back and read that EBA before you go sprouting off your opinion on what it says? The 10% is the minimum the company has to release. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing...

[burty]

Like it or not.

Seniority is the best speed hump to mitigate stupidity*.

(*stupidity being pole climbing or what ever creative circumstance presents itself.)

Exactly. :*

[skysook]

Skysook, could you please go back and read that EBA before you go sprouting off your opinion on what it says? The 10% is the minimum the company has to release. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing...

Could you elaborate on your interpretation of this please?

Because my interpretation is that once they have released the 10% then there is no further requirement to release any more in that rolling 12 month period. The intent being to prevent the crippling of VARA pilot numbers. Ofcourse the company reserves the right to release more if they wish. I thought this was pretty clear.

[Icarus2001]

I know of one VARA FO from F100 moving to the B737 so far.

[Goat Whisperer]

...and one F100 capt moving to 737 FO.

[SpyderPig]

Is that because not many of them want to leave that side of the operation? I hear the lifestyle is pretty good there?

[Berealgetreal]

Think the lifestyle is good everywhere bar 737 VAA east coast.

[Goat Whisperer]

Think the lifestyle is good everywhere bar 737 VAA east coast.


which is the majority of the VA group.

[White and Fluffy]

http://http://careers.virginaustralia.com/mob/cw/en/job/498564/flight-crew-opportunities-first-second-officer-positions-australia-new-zealand (http://careers.virginaustralia.com/mob/cw/en/job/498564/flight-crew-opportunities-first-second-officer-positions-australia-new-zealand)

[kowloonman]

Anyone here please kindly advise how long it may/will take for referee checks please currently? Many thanks!

[206greaser]

****WARNING****

VA are now recruiting direct entry to 737 domestic positions. If they offer you ATR do not accept! Unless of course you want to live in CBR or SYD for the next possibly 10 years (or you are a cadet). Given the current EBA that's a definite time frame.

Forewarned is forearmed

[206greaser]

Start date is in august mate. Best bit is the candidate was originally offered ATR.

When you say eligible you mean internals? That seems a bit high but I'll buy it.

Morale? We don't need no stinking morale...

[The Bullwinkle]

We don't need no stinking morale...
That's fortunate, because we don't have any!!!

[havick]

Hi 206.

This must be a rumour. I know the nufty's have advertised online for 737 direct entry.. You know there is about 250-300 eligible for 737 yes?

It will do wonders for morale if true. Can the 5hit show get any worse?

It's cost saving, they don't have to backfill this way of course.

[Icarus2001]

Pilot Opportunities

Virgin Australia provides entry opportunities in Australia to Boeing 737 First Officer, Fokker 100 First Officer, Boeing 777 Second Officer, and ATR 72 First Officer positions. Additionally, we provide entry opportunities in New Zealand to Boeing 737 First Officer positions. Virgin Australia’s minimum requirements are listed below. We strongly encourage those who meet minimum requirements to express their interest in Virgin Australia by submitting an application.

The majority of pilots can at this time expect entry into the Virgin Australia Group via Australian based Fokker 100 First Officer, Boeing 777 Second Officer and ATR 72 First Officer roles as well as New Zealand based Boeing 737 First Officer roles.

InZed this is what their website says TODAY.

Not what you wrote.You left out TWO important points. You could get a job in commercial TV news with those skills.

.pilots can at this time expect entry into the Virgin Australia Group via Australian based Fokker 100 First Officer, Boeing 777 Second Officer and ATR 72 First Officer roles as well as New Zealand based Boeing 737 First Officer roles.

Here it is...http://careers.virginaustralia.com/mob/cw/en/job/498564/flight-crew-opportunities-first-second-officer-positions-australia-new-zealand

[206greaser]

I feel sorry for the poor suckers on the ATR who will be stuck there for years. Not because it's a bad aircraft, but because guys off the street will get starts on the domestic fleet and earn twice as much from day one. I guess SA and JT were joking when they said ATR pilots were valued and part of the team. Turns out it's the leper fleet!

["Littlebird"]

So no takers from inside VA for the F100 FO jobs posted today on AFAP? Surely the Fokker would be a better proposition than the ATR? Externals are not taking the dangling carrot on the F100 or ATR or 777 SO as they know VA are severly understaffed on the 737. Just a matter of time hey boys and girls? In addition the current ATR guys are leaving and will continue to leave on a weekly basis as they face a cap and can't transfer to the 737 as an FO or SO on the 777, except for several guys recently, and apparently out of order of seniority, equating to more that will walk.
Suddenly you have a fleet that will be grounded, Alliance will then also take all the NSW flying, the loyal customer will be confused as to why an Uber turned up after ordering the Silver Service Taxi, then as Johnny Young used to say after a great night of singing and dancing 'good night Australia'. Very sad...:confused:

[Icarus2001]

Alliance turn up to do a Virgin flight.

Just like Cobham and Network do for Qantas.

[Going Nowhere]

Except that the aircraft and crew (mostly) say QantasLink on them.

[Chadzat]

Yep thats all in a days work with the stellar management team at VA Littlebird!

[SHVC]

Not sure about some of "Littlebird"comments.

ATR crew may not want to live in Perth and work for VARA hence why no one applied. I haven't noticed to many resignations this yr, most of the mass attrition off the ATR occurred mid to late last year seems to be stabilized now. as for positions issued out of seniority not sure how you figure that, some ATR crew have been awarded 73 positions these crew were high on the VARA list if it looks like some got a spot when it looks like they shouldn't I could put it down to a couple reasons, They did not apply or they failed the Psych, sim, interview or all components and at the end of the day the company only need to release 10% off the ATR east coast. given the total numbers they awarded to ATR crew that percentage has been fulfilled so this would mean VA will hire DE FO off the street.

["Littlebird"]

SHVC. Fair enough re Perth and the F100.
I've had the cap explained to me in detail. How's that working for the company with retention in mind?
As far as there not being many ATR drivers who have left in the past 6 months or less, compared to last year.
Let's see...3 checkies to QLink, 1 checkie management pilot to Cobham, 3 to Jetgo, includes 1 checkie, 2 to Jetstar, 2 to Alliance, 1 to a Polynesian carrier out of BN. That's 12 recently alone that I know of. That doesn't sound like a lot, although out of only about 80 pilots in total, that equates to a master warning.
VA can stick to their 10% cap and recruit directly to the 737, but at what cost? Let's touch base again once that hapenns and compare our departure metrics then.
I assure you things are not rosey here as well. In fact far from it. What I can tell you is that we do have a process in place to dig us out.
CASA have only issued a handful of ATPL's in the past 12 months. More cadets is not the answer for the short/medium term either, as they won't have the experience for at least 5 years, not to mention the attitude for at least 10 years.
She'll Be Right Mate! :ugh:

[PPRuNeUser0184]

Alliance turn up to do a Virgin flight.

Just like Cobham and Network do for Qantas.

Yeah, except Cobham and Network are not "crosshired"........

[Berealgetreal]

4 ATR's? Did I hear this correctly?

What's the point? Sounds like avoiding loss of face.

Gradually everyone of those guys will go to greener pastures if not guaranteed a slot on the NG. A total catch 22 as the ATR style of operation wouldn't be one forgiving to an inexperienced group. Turbo props are done and done well by Qlink and dare I say it REX. White flag time.

Expensive experiments.

[SHVC]

You seem to be all over it little bird but there is a storey to go with why some of those checkers went to link but I won't blow the lid on that one. Again the 10% i personally voted no as we gave up a lot for that, look how much crap it is causing for pilots and even more for the company I'd almost think think the company even regrets it also, but I guess veryone got shinny jet syndrome tripping over them selfs thinking they would be on one right away. For the company to be able to move forward they need to be able to employ drivers (amongst other things) without having to consult everyone which is costly and time consuming. There seems a lot of ppl here who want VA to fail, I'm not worried, I'll just keep turning up doing the job, as you say "she'll be right mate"

[Open Descent]

Anyone know when interviewing will start for B737 Aussie east coast slots?
I was told its already started for Perth positions?

Applicants considered for Perth 737 are already underway.
SO, NZ737 and PER737 are all areas that require crew currently.

It will be a very long time, if ever that 737 east coast will be offered direct entry, but the way things are going at the moment...who knows??

[greenbaloon]

does anyone knows anything about the video interviews ?

[anonfly]

If the video interview is anything like Qantas it will be about 5 questions and you get 3 or so minutes to answer the question. It is pretty generic stuff.
Tell us about your career to date? What are your strengths? What are areas of improvement? Why did you choose virgin? I can't remember any others.
Good luck everyone.
If anyone has info on the Online Cognitive testing that would be great.
Happy flying

[zanthrus]

Tell us about your career to date? Did you not read my Resume I sent in?

What are your strengths? I am an ace pilot.

What are areas of improvement? None of your business.

Why did you choose virgin? I want a good job.

Seriously these questions just piss me off.

[Goat Whisperer]

Has no-one considered that the stock vanilla questions aren't to find out about the candidates' career/desires but maybe it's about their abilities to communicate, verbally and non verbally?

[Falling Leaf]

Has no-one considered that the stock vanilla questions aren't to find out about the candidates' career/desires but maybe it's about their abilities to communicate, verbally and non verbally?

I think the bigger reason is it gives HR power over a process which otherwise they would know nothing about. By using behavioural questions it allows them to interview anyone from any technical background, while HR can know nothing about the person's area of expertise. Psychometric testing and behavioural questions just allow HR to appear relevant when any capable pilot manager should be able to hire and fire on their own.

[patty50]

does anyone knows anything about the video interviews ?


If anyone has info on the Online Cognitive testing that would be great.



This info is from the cadetship application, take it or leave it but its probably fairly similar. The video interview in particular seemed like it was used for all pilot applications.

The video was 3 questions, 30 seconds to answer the first two and 60 seconds for the last. You just upload a video that you can take as many times as you want, edit, do whatever.

The cognitive testing was basically IQ type questions but extremely time limited. Maths word problems, sequences, pattern recognition, 'find the word that doesn't fit'. I thought I may have failed but passed.

This is very recent but of course I don't know how applicable to ordinary pilot applications.

[DHC8 Driver]

I'm getting the feeling some of you didn't get an interview or maybe got the no thank you letter after the interview. Take a look at your posts and you will be able to work out why!

[Open Descent]

Tell us about your career to date? Did you not read my Resume I sent in?

What are your strengths? I am an ace pilot.

What are areas of improvement? None of your business.

Why did you choose virgin? I want a good job.

Seriously these questions just piss me off.

That's gold! You have illustrated perfectly why airlines have assessment criteria.

[das Uber Soldat]

edit : actually who cares.

[anonfly]

This info is from the cadetship application, take it or leave it but its probably fairly similar. The video interview in particular seemed like it was used for all pilot applications.

The video was 3 questions, 30 seconds to answer the first two and 60 seconds for the last. You just upload a video that you can take as many times as you want, edit, do whatever.

The cognitive testing was basically IQ type questions but extremely time limited. Maths word problems, sequences, pattern recognition, 'find the word that doesn't fit'. I thought I may have failed but passed.

This is very recent but of course I don't know how applicable to ordinary pilot applications.

Were all the cognitive questions together over a 20min period or seperate mini tests? How did you know you passed at the end of the test?
Thanks for the info appreicated.

[airdualbleedfault]

Falling leaf, spot on :ok:

[patty50]

Were all the cognitive questions together over a 20min period or seperate mini tests? How did you know you passed at the end of the test?
Thanks for the info appreicated.

All in one 20 minute hit, 51 questions. I think I got up to question 42 or so. Skipped a few time consuming ones towards the end. It was harder than I anticipated, heavy on the spatial stuff.

I made it to the next round so must've passed.

[aussietomcat]

Done both video and online test yesterday . Video was quiet relaxed.
Anyone knows what's the entry salary for an SO in Virgin ? I found the EBA and it says 79000 first year entry after 2013. Is that correct ? Just curious

[Joystick jokey]

Hi anyone in the know....

I noticed the latest Perth F100 FO ad requires 500MEC... I know my company is struggling to get people with those hours at the moment on a turbo prop... Do they take people with less than the 500 MEC if they have multicrew time?!? Or is the 500 a must?

Thanks in advance.

[Interceptheading]

93K plus allowances, First year + super, better allowances and call out payments as well compared to the 213 LH agreement.

best of luck :ok:

[donkey767]

Done both video and online test yesterday . Video was quiet relaxed.
Anyone knows what's the entry salary for an SO in Virgin ? I found the EBA and it says 79000 first year entry after 2013. Is that correct ? Just curious

Well I'd hope it's more than that now! - I make more as a turbo-prop FO before allowances 🙄

[VHFRT]

Well I'd hope it's more than that now! - I make more as a turbo-prop FO before allowances 🙄

Nope, that's what it is. Well not exactly, the 79k includes super so it's closer to 73.

The new EBA (if it gets voted up this time...) has an improvement.

[anonfly]

Has anyone heard of any assessment dates being held this month in Brisbane?

[das Uber Soldat]

Hah, they're calling people from the june 2015 interviews who have already told them no previously. Again.

[Open Descent]

One was held this week, there are nine more scheduled in between now and the end of the year.

I remember Qantas ringing people back in 07-08 who had previously been told no or who had dropped off the hold file for one reason or another. It wouldn't be the first time an airline has attempted to contact people during desperate times and I guess times are now starting to get desperate.

[KRUSTY 34]

"$1,000 per week in the hand".

Still the lowest paid Widebody S/O's in the world?

Qantas are looking for quite a few for the Mainline Dreamliner fleet. That would be an interesting comparison.

[Goat Whisperer]

NZ based VA pilots are now starting to leave NZ for VA Aus based positions, not just Air NZ.

[VHFRT]

Good number of guys moving through the ranks in the latest 737 awards. That should mean some consistant recruitment in the entry ranks for the future.

[Goat Whisperer]

"Consistent" isn't really a word many of us associate with the flow of pilot recruitments, FRT.

It's more stop, stop, GO GO!

Kind of like being on a bus with a driver who plants all their weight on one pedal thenthe other seemingly at random.

[SHVC]

Should be plenty of recruitment onto the ATR, a lot of those guys got a 73 award.

[VHFRT]

"Consistent" isn't really a word many of us associate with the flow of pilot recruitments, FRT.

It's more stop, stop, GO GO!

Kind of like being on a bus with a driver who plants all their weight on one pedal thenthe other seemingly at random.

Ha yes, fair point. Poor choice of word.

But with internal 73 courses seemingly running well into the new year, I would expect good run of recruitment onto the 777 and ATR for at least another 12 months.

[patty50]

Is Virgin really that short of pilots that with a shrinking fleet they're hiring massively? I overheard 2 pilots the other day talking at length about how they were both getting hammered.
Only 3 new 737s in the last 2 years with most of the E190s gone and most ATRs going as well.

Where did everyone go?

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

Is Virgin really that short of pilots that with a shrinking fleet they're hiring massively? I overheard 2 pilots the other day talking at length about how they were both getting hammered.
Yes. Over 200 short. Thank Hammes for that. SY pilots sitting on max hours. Other bases not far behind.

[Falling Leaf]

Benefits

In addition to joining an airline with an exemplary safety record and consistently good OTP results, you can expect the follow benefits from joining Virgin Australia:

42 days annual leave
Loss of licence insurance
Annual salary increase
Exceptional staff travel program that can be enjoyed by your family and friends
The ability to bid for rosters that suit your lifestyle
Career progression opportunities including first rate training throughout your flying career with Virgin Australia, designed to equip you with the skills to consistently develop and progress toward command opportunities. There are future opportunities with the Training department, Technical Pilot roles and also management opportunities.
Fleet and operational variety
Engagement surveys that enable management to listen to the needs of team members and take action on the issues that matter
Employee Assistance Program - including 24 hour support for our team members and their families
Paid parental and adoption leave - including 10 weeks paid maternity, two weeks paid paternity and three weeks paid adoption leave
Study assistance - we offer support for study linked to development
Salary sacrifice options - such as vehicles and superannuation
The opportunity to tap into the diverse offerings of the Virgin group globally

Laughed my ass off when I saw this corporate BS...

Annual leave...yes, but not when you want to take it
Annual salary increase... narrow body EBA over 2 years expired and no annual adjustment mentioned for FY1718.
Staff travel...don't expect to go anywhere on holidays, plus its a rip off, VA are selling sale fares to HK cheaper then the staff travel price.
Engagement surveys...allow the managers to get their KPI's but you will never hear the results from the survey.
Study Assistance...was promised this in the interview but all applications rejected as 'we have no money'.

Not saying that any other airline is better, but have your eyes wide open.

[Oakape]

Most of those only apply to Australia anyway. Don't expect most of those benefits if you come to a NZ base. Even the special deals advertised in the 'Virgin Vibe' do not apply to those in NZ. There are no special deals over here. All that, along with a salary that is approximately 20% less than in Oz & a cost of living that is significantly higher. Living the dream!

[Interceptheading]

Lot of ATR drivers failing the Jet Assessment.

How you can fail an assessment but still keep a job!? How can you be ok to fly around in the ****ty lower levels but not OK to sit in the backseat of a 777 ?

[Chadzat]

I dont think 10-15% is a 'lot'.

Your second paragraph shows the absurdity of the system.

["Littlebird"]

Conducting assessment of pilots should have been done prior to these pilots integrating to Virgin from Virgin Regional NOT after. Why is this necessary now? This practice is inefficient, unecessary and could have some very negative implications for an applicant that missed out and more so for the company. Surely these guys have a long history of sim and line checks, not to mention hundreds of sectors flying a difficult aircraft in a very demanding environment.
These guys measure up very well here during interviews. Great for us here, but sad to see these young pilots subjected to this poor practice and attitude and as a result lured away from Australia. How many ATPL's are currently being issued annually downunder? Exactly my point I rest my case. Have a great day!:rolleyes:

[mikewil]

I thought I looked pretty good on paper lol



I hope you didn't use "lol" on said paper.

[The Green Goblin]

Minger to give you an indication.

With those hours I had almost 3000 hours multi. Over 2000 multi crew turbine and had been in the left seat of a regional multi crew turboprop.

Sounds like you need to get in the left seat to be competitive. I must also say as soon as I wrote captain on my resume, the big airline interview invitations came.

[Interceptheading]

Hours do not equate to experience.

I know a bloke who argues he should be given everything under the sun because he has+5000hrs. All flying rectangles and meat bombing.:ugh::ugh:

[Capt Fathom]

he has+5000hrs. All flying rectangles and meat bombingThere must be some sort of reward for that!

[Weary traveller]

Hah! I agree. Sounds worse than 14 months of "Rock and Olga's"

[anonfly]

Would anyone be kind enough to let me know what to expect for the online testing? Do they still use SHL? Verbal, Numerical and Logical reasoning? Thanks in advance, I owe you a beer.

Abstract, Numerical and Verbal reasoning. All seperate 20-25min tests. SHL practice tests are the best to use. They will give you a fair idea of the kind of questions to expect. I didn't manage to finish the numerical and abstract in the allotted time but got through the verbal with some time to spare. On par or slightly easier than than the practice SHL questions. They generally got progressively harder as you made your way through the test

[aam1986]

What's absurd is the sweet irony of urging people to not allow integration and then snagging an east-coast 737 gig at first opportunity THANKS to integration. That's what's absurd, or is it irony? I am not sure.

That's a cheap shot, particularly on an anonymous forum. Name one pilot who has spent more time and effort fighting for ATR crew than Chadzat.

The debate was not whether or not to "allow" integration but whether or not it should be brought up at EBA time to allow the company to use it as leverage. As it happened they were handed the leverage and used it to force a system that suited nobody but the company. The way the company has treated the ATR operation since and more importantly, the staff that they profess to love so much, is nothing short of a disgrace.

[Comeflytothestars]

The airline is a basket case. Do yourself a favour and wait for Qantas or look elsewhere! Better options out there then Virgin!

[UPTOFLTLVLS]

The airline is a basket case. Do yourself a favour and wait for Qantas or look elsewhere! Better options out there then Virgin!

Have been with Virgin for many years now and I would have to agree with the above statement. If you want a flying job which pays alright Virgin will provide that but nothing else. You're treated like S*#T by management. Told to constantly put reports in to make things better, nothing ever comes of it. No J class paxing, no respect from ground staff, crew meals are foul. I could go on and on but I won't. If you're prepared to put up with it, just fly and go home well it's an alright job. O and when you get home expect constant calls from crewing asking you to work your days off. Border line harassment.
If you are weighing up between Virgin and JQ I'd personally pick JQ. You'll be working the same but at least you get decent staff travel.

[The Bullwinkle]

Have been with Virgin for many years now and I would have to agree with the above statement. If you want a flying job which pays alright Virgin will provide that but nothing else. You're treated like S*#T by management. Told to constantly put reports in to make things better, nothing ever comes of it. No J class paxing, no respect from ground staff, crew meals are foul. I could go on and on but I won't. If you're prepared to put up with it, just fly and go home well it's an alright job. O and when you get home expect constant calls from crewing asking you to work your days off. Border line harassment.
If you are weighing up between Virgin and JQ I'd personally pick JQ. You'll be working the same but at least you get decent staff travel.
Totally agree!

[Oakape]

If you want a flying job which pays alright



Go to the NZ operation & you won't even get that!

[anonfly]

Has anyone heard anything back from recruitment recently? I completed stages 2/3 a few weeks back and have not had any communication since.

[das Uber Soldat]

Has anyone heard anything back from recruitment recently? I completed stages 2/3 a few weeks back and have not had any communication since.
I got told I had passed all stages of recruitment and a course date would be given to me in 3 days, then didn't hear a thing for 9 months.

I wouldn't worry about a few weeks :E

[The Bullwinkle]

You don't need experience, you need a heartbeat and a lobotomy.
I think that would make you overqualified!!!

[Who stole my meds]

Progression up the list is very slooooooooow :)

The pilots recruited to Perth?
Is the progression a bit faster over there?

[speedjet]

Progression up the list is very slooooooooow

I wouldn't call slow 2-3 years as a 777 SO. Most SO's are barley completing their freeze period before upgrading to VAA737 FO. From there is options of VAI 737 FO, 330 FO etc. I will admit the chances of any new recruit seeing a wide body command is nil due to small fleet size.

[Berealgetreal]

Most Junior guys will have opportunities (Left and Right seat) at Tiger if it grows.

Likewise, if you are from or like the idea of living in Perth there will be opportunities (F100 Right seat) at VARA not to mention Right seat VAA 737.

VAA Command BNE/MEL probably 15 years at best to LHS for a new joiner. Keep in mind a lot of current VAA Captains are 40ish. The latest round of PER 737 Commands went to guys that joined 7-8 years ago.

There is also potential growth in Wide body (read movement on Narrow Body) and some turn over company wide which was previously very low if not inexistent.

Wide Body Command is very very senior, if this is what you are chasing you will have to go overseas at some stage.

330 FO is similar seniority to PER Narrow body Command.

777 FO is very senior, mostly goes to 737 Captains trying escape domestic!LOL.

Hope this helps, all the best.

["Littlebird"]

With the many opportunities out there at the moment it is important to get in now with the right employer. If you're after a job then this might be for you. If you're after a career I would try elsewhere. Timely career progression and opportunity is vital, just as is a decent pay cheque and time to enjoy what is a relatively short time on this earth :ok:;)

[Superbad]

I tend to disagree with the above posts. Everyone is focusing on progression, this is based on false expectation. The progression offered at Jetstar and VB/VAA in the last 10-15 years is NOT the industry standard. Take QF for example, yes the pay is good after a number of years, however progression is slow. Look at all the major carriers in the USA, very slow progression. Air New Zealand is the same. Virgin does offer progression, however it is now similar to other carriers in respect to time.
Talk about Job security, Virgin has never made anyone redundant. (Pilots anyway) Remember a few years ago when it was all doom and gloom at QF, there were demotions and offers of LWOP to avoid redundancy.
A 737 first officer at VAA with a couple of years service will make in excess of 160k a year with out really trying. Which is not bad. Additionally being a jr pilot does not affect your lifestyle in terms of bidding for a rosters or ALV like a lot of other carriers.
Yes there is a lot of negativity at the moment, which frustrating and does affect your work and home life. However if you go to work, do your job and not get too caught up in the bull**** you will fine.
If you are young and relatively inexperienced, apply for everything and take what you can get. You don't want to be left in the dark when the music stops, which it inevitably will in the future.

[t_cas]

I tend to disagree with the above posts. Everyone is focusing on progression, this is based on false expectation. The progression offered at Jetstar and VB/VAA in the last 10-15 years is NOT the industry standard. Take QF for example, yes the pay is good after a number of years, however progression is slow. Look at all the major carriers in the USA, very slow progression. Air New Zealand is the same. Virgin does offer progression, however it is now similar to other carriers in respect to time.
Talk about Job security, Virgin has never made anyone redundant. (Pilots anyway) Remember a few years ago when it was all doom and gloom at QF, there were demotions and offers of LWOP to avoid redundancy.
A 737 first officer at VAA with a couple of years service will make in excess of 160k a year with out really trying. Which is not bad. Additionally being a jr pilot does not affect your lifestyle in terms of bidding for a rosters or ALV like a lot of other carriers.
Yes there is a lot of negativity at the moment, which frustrating and does affect your work and home life. However if you go to work, do your job and not get too caught up in the bull**** you will fine.
If you are young and relatively inexperienced, apply for everything and take what you can get. You don't want to be left in the dark when the music stops, which it inevitably will in the future.
Pretty much as he/she said.
There are pros and cons, to any carrier you choose.
It is not a competition. It is getting a gig and making the most of it.
Green grass will always appear ot be there, no matter where you are...

[Raro123]

Pretty much as he/she said.
There are pros and cons, to any carrier you choose.
It is not a competition. It is getting a gig and making the most of it.
Green grass will always appear ot be there, no matter where you are...

I tend to disagree. You should always strive and work towards where you want to be ultimately and not settle for anything less.

As it stands today, with the option of both QF and Virgin recurting, you're better off at QF for so many reasons.

[Raro123]

Virgin is not that good a gig. Tends to be an airline for those who don't make it into Qantas. If someone disagrees with me please tell me, but before you do, think of how many current line pilots you fly with who tell you they didn't get into Qantas. Point I'm making is that Virgin is never any ones first choice.

[DUXNUTZ]

I tend to disagree with the above posts. Everyone is focusing on progression, this is based on false expectation. The progression offered at Jetstar and VB/VAA in the last 10-15 years is NOT the industry standard. Take QF for example, yes the pay is good after a number of years, however progression is slow. Look at all the major carriers in the USA, very slow progression. Air New Zealand is the same. Virgin does offer progression, however it is now similar to other carriers in respect to time.
Talk about Job security, Virgin has never made anyone redundant. (Pilots anyway) Remember a few years ago when it was all doom and gloom at QF, there were demotions and offers of LWOP to avoid redundancy.
A 737 first officer at VAA with a couple of years service will make in excess of 160k a year with out really trying. Which is not bad. Additionally being a jr pilot does not affect your lifestyle in terms of bidding for a rosters or ALV like a lot of other carriers.
Yes there is a lot of negativity at the moment, which frustrating and does affect your work and home life. However if you go to work, do your job and not get too caught up in the bull**** you will fine.
If you are young and relatively inexperienced, apply for everything and take what you can get. You don't want to be left in the dark when the music stops, which it inevitably will in the future.

There's upgrades at Delta at under two years on property fwiw. Market is changing.

[The Green Goblin]

You don't choose a carrier. You take the first one that gives you a job. If you're lucky enough to have multiple offers, take the one with the best progression to where you want to be based.

Ultimately aviation is a means to fund your lifestyle. Once you are married and have kids all your priorities change. Moving the family for the left seat isn't an option anymore. Neither is the six months of training to change type and probably move bases.

Right now the opposition is looking pretty good. However it wasn't long ago it was the reverse. Aviation is cyclic and this is no different.

Hang in there and enjoy your non flying life. As someone else said life's too short. Besides you have no control over the company fortunes anyway.

[airdualbleedfault]

Stop making sense green goblin!

[SpyderPig]

Every once in a while, the GG speaks some real truths ;) I had to make a choice recently between a job offer and in invitation for an interview offer. I've made my choice based on exactly the above.

As stated, the industry is cyclic, wasn't too long ago it was doom and gloom at the rat, people have short memories.....

[roger_ramjet]

+1 for the above.
If you take a 40k-50k pay cut from regional C&T to join the likes of JQ or VA, you're going to need a narrowbody command before you're ahead of your current package, and that could be 7, 10, even 15 years which is a lot of cumulative earnings lost. Even 7 years @ $40k is $280k in lost earnings.

To paraphrase another poster "the equipment doesn't matter, it's pay and lifestyle that really count".

[PPRuNeUser0163]

Anyone heard after the video interview/ online assessments?

Seems to be many waiting for weeks ?

[Berealgetreal]

Tiger FO slots opened to internals indicating movement as I mentioned above. These will be taken up by pilots that are fairly junior.

Lot of differences between QF VA group most pretty obvious.

I'd say VA group you will get into a window seat much quicker than QF. However JQ is straight into a window seat so its horses for courses and everyone will have different goals and aspirations.

I don't think a year or two SO VA is a bad thing, you get to look at long haul and enjoy the fruits. It's a long time before you'll see it again.

[YendorB]

Can anyone confirm which psychometric aptitude test virgin is using for the online assessment? And where can I get some practice?

[Raro123]

Tiger FO slots opened to internals indicating movement as I mentioned above. These will be taken up by pilots that are fairly junior.

Lot of differences between QF VA group most pretty obvious.

I'd say VA group you will get into a window seat much quicker than QF. However JQ is straight into a window seat so its horses for courses and everyone will have different goals and aspirations.

I don't think a year or two SO VA is a bad thing, you get to look at long haul and enjoy the fruits. It's a long time before you'll see it again.

Wrong. FO spots in Qantas on 73 are coming around quicker then you think. Quickest has been 4 days with a new joiner getting Perth. 73 Melbourne spots have been awarded to guys who joined in Jan this year. Fact check before posting!

[Double_Clutch]

Any idea how long one can expect to hear back from the latest panel interview?
Was anyone provided an expected time frame?

[anonfly]

The expected time wait for candidates is 2-3 weeks as mentioned on the job description, so I am guessing give it a couple weeks.

In regards to the online cognitive tests, look at the SHL practice ones. I wrote about them earlier on in the thread if you want to go back and look at that.

[34R]

Any idea how long one can expect to hear back from the latest panel interview?
Was anyone provided an expected time frame?

Some of the candidates that were interviewed this week were targeted for the PER 737 FO positions, so they will be hearing sooner rather than later.

["Littlebird"]

So let me get this right...ATR pilots that have been with the Virgin group for over 5 years, were put through integration transfer training 2 years ago in order to swap from VARA to VAA, then recently had to pass an interview and sim assessment to transfer to the jet fleet, and now after all of this are stuck on the ATR due to a 10% cap imposed to keep the ATR fleet going, but at the same time new joiners are now coming off the street going directly to the 737 in Perth and 777 SO?

I found this very hard to believe at first, then I kept hearing the same story from people.
In my 42 years in aviation I have not heard of anything as so disgraceful.
I've done GA, military, Ansett, QF and many others, and this takes top prize hands down!:yuk:


Ladies and gents this is wrong no matter how you perceive it. And no it's not the same story as with the guys at QLink and Jetstar trying to get in with QF. I've spoken to many of them as well.
The ATR group integrated into VAA 2 years ago after extra training, assessment and scrutiny. They are employees of VAA not VARA any longer.


Guys do your health and career a favour in that order...perhaps it's time to move on :)

[SHVC]

You're so far off the mark littlebird,


The ATR initially and still is very much VARA we even work under the VARA EBA go figure hey!

["Littlebird"]

SHVC. OK I was under the impression that your employer entity changed to VAA from VARA and your chief pilot was the VAA CP. Am I missing something?
Unfortunately the majority voted that dismal EBA in at the time and it transferred with you.
L.B

[34R]

Was it understood before the integration model was agreed upon that there would be a 10% cap in place?

[Chadzat]

Yes and it was necessary to get integration in the first place - long story. As always in airlines - people never read the EBA until a clause applies to them and then there is mass outrage over something that has been there all along.

[34R]

Yes and it was necessary to get integration in the first place - long story. As always in airlines - people never read the EBA until a clause applies to them and then there is mass outrage over something that has been there all along.



Couldn't agree more.

[Derfred]

Yes and it was necessary to get integration in the first place - long story. As always in airlines - people never read the EBA until a clause applies to them and then there is mass outrage over something that has been there all along.

Matters of significance are usually included in an executive summary.

[Counter-rotation]

Hi SHVC,

I've gotta say that what "Littlebird" posted seems about exactly on the money to me. Not way off the mark at all. Except the part about 2 years - it was more like 18 months as I recall (April 2016).
The VARA EBA applies because it was in place, when the employer transfer was c/o. It does not mean the employer is VARA, just because VARA T&Cs are in place. Governance is most certainly VAA for the ATR operation, but it remains a "hybrid" in some systems and admin processes.

[Whirlybird123]

Hi

I'm interested in a 737 Perth based position with VA. How bad is the roster? Is there a lot of time away from home? Can I bid to do short trips or day trips? I have little kids so trying to figure out what's best.

[SpyderPig]

Hi

I'm interested in a 737 Perth based position with VA. How bad is the roster? Is there a lot of time away from home? Can I bid to do short trips or day trips? I have little kids so trying to figure out what's best.

If you want day trips, lifestyle and Perth, go for the F100. Only one overnight trip in the whole network with VARA

[206greaser]

SHVC you are wrong. Wrong in such a way that to use the term 'we' makes it obvious that you are in fact a troll. Skywest brought in the ATR, was bought by VA and then Skywest became VARA. The whole ATR operation was then transferred to VA. There are no VARA pilots on the ATR, only VA pilots. The way they are currently being treated whilst legal under the EBA is in essence unethical.

All of what littlebird said is in fact correct. It's all okay though as management "value our ATR pilots."

[FlyingTaxi]

Any information on Perth based B737 routes, rosters and lifestyle would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[donkey767]

Can anyone give me an idea of what an F100 pilot's roster/lifestyle is like vs a Network F100 gig? I gather they're struggling to find people willing to go Perth...

[Aussie-kiwi]

Does anyone know the current time to command for NZ based 73 drivers? And now that Australian pilots are able to bid for NZ commands, what the "feeling" is like with those Aussie based pilots. (As in would many consider a move across the ditch to NZ for a command)

[bolthead]

Plenty of criticism here of how it is being done. How would you do it?

Surely if you have been on the ATR for five years you would be captain - maybe odd exception. Is there anything wrong with that. Bit hard to operate them without captains. To me, sounds better than rhs 737 or back seat 777.

Correct me if I am wrong, wouldn't a five year better seniority number guarantee you lhs in the jet well before a newbie?

[Brakerider]

Correct me if I am wrong, wouldn't a five year better seniority number guarantee you lhs in the jet well before a newbie?


No, and thats the issue. Some guys that have been in there for the long haul on the ATR are getting bypassed as they can't afford to take them off the ATR. That's my understanding anyway.

Heard there are also some unhappy campers who were told AU bases were not available and got shipped off to NZ only to see new hires get 737 PER.

[34R]

Nobody gets "shipped off" to anywhere.

Candidates are asked to indicate their preferred bases and not to say they will go somewhere if that somewhere is a place they really don't want to be.

People have indicated they don't want to go to NZ and would prefer to wait for an Oz base, understanding that choice may delay their entry into the airline as Oz bases don't come around all that often.

Others have indicated they will go anywhere just to get a foot in the door.

Freezes on transfers are made very very clear.

Once again, as has already been suggested, make sure you have considered and understand the full implications of accepting a position here if your initial basing is not in your preferred location.

bolthead, all newbies will have a lower group date of joining number than the ATR pilots and as such, will have to wait longer for their shot at command. I joined in 2011 and a command is still a very long time away, so that might put in perspective the time frames new hires, and even current ATR pilots could expect.

[anonfly]

Hi could anyone that works at Virgin currently tell me how conditions and general well being of employees is. An honest appraisal would be good. How many hours are you flying in a 28 day roster, are people easily going over the 71hrs and earning overtime, are rosters changing constantly, do you enjoy the job? Pm if required.
Thanks in advance

[Raro123]

Hi could anyone that works at Virgin currently tell me how conditions and general well being of employees is. An honest appraisal would be good. How many hours are you flying in a 28 day roster, are people easily going over the 71hrs and earning overtime, are rosters changing constantly, do you enjoy the job? Pm if required.
Thanks in advance

Read the last few pages of this thread. You'll get an honest opinion.

Roster are anywhere from 75-85 hours at the moment.

You can bid for 1,2,3,4 day trips.

Most overnights are min rest, after already doing 10+ hours duty in a day just to back it up and do it again.

Day 1 of a trip is normally an early sign on. Anywhere from 5am to 7am. Last day you finish late. Get home to have the phone ring the next day and ask you to come in and do a draft on a day off. I never draft simply because I'm at work too much and want time at home with the family.

With no draft my group certificate was $170K. Working hard for it. Constant fatigue.

The CAST committee does three fiths of nothing in trying to identify fatiguing trips and rectifying it.

You can put fatigue reports in until you're blue in the face, nothing changes.

No respect shown from any department. No business class duty travel. Stuck down the back with the freals elbowing you as they board.

I could go on but I won't. I'm sure someone else will pick up where I left off.

As I've stated previously, it's a flying job only, which pays semi alright but you're working hard for it. Better options out there.

[Oakape]

NZ is a whole different operation & not the same in detail as the post above

[Raro123]

NZ is a whole different operation & not the same in detail as the post above

The NZ operation is completely different.

1- Less Money
2- Less Days Off
3- Longer trips (up to 6 days away)

However the flying is really good and not as fatiguing as domestic. Maximum 1 maybe 2 sectors a day. One could argue that it's inefficient utilisation of crew in NZ however it's all based around the company schedule. My mates who are based in NZ enjoy it and they seem a much happier camp.

Just need to weigh up the pros and cons and do what's best for you.

[The Bullwinkle]

All things considered, any realistic indication of Time to Command on the VARA F100?
Depends how "Uptimistic" you are!!! :)

[quattros2]

it's been asked before yet still no real answer to the actual working conditions and pay on the F100 in Perth. Anyone?

[Chadzat]

Busy and as per the EBA which you can find on fairwork website. Expect extra 15-20k in overtime/overnights.

[SHVC]

really quattros?! If you can’t take 1min or be bothered to search for the EBA that is easily available on the net, then how would you ever pass the process. Seriously some ppl need to do some of their own finger pressing and look for the info.

[Cornhulio]

Hawk Circle - A long, long time. If I'm not mistaken, the entire VA seniority list is on the bottom of the VARA list. So once all the previous VARA F100 FO's get a command, it's open slather for the VA pilots list. Then any new recruits. It's an absolute dogs breakfast!

[Icarus2001]

the entire VA seniority list is on the bottom of the VARA list

Really? Why?

[sumtingwong]

Really? Why?

Because at the time of integration, VARA pilots (incl ATR) went to the bottom of the VA list.

[Icarus2001]

Something above is back to front then, did Cornhulio mean the opposite?

[sumtingwong]

Something above is back to front then, did Cornhulio mean the opposite?

Yeah, it didn't make much sense then, and not much more now Icarus.

So VA group date of joining list went to the bottom of the VARA seniority list and vice-versa on the date of integration (Jan 2014).

Clear as mud?

[Goat Whisperer]

That's the standard way of integrating seniority lists worldwide.

VA are added to the end of VARA's list, VARA are added to the end of VA's list. Anyone joining after that is at the bottom of the single list. Gives crew who were in VARA at the time of integration first shot at promotions on VARA ops (including ATR).

[206greaser]

You’ll find that’s also happening with the Tiger integration. Except of course for those on a short term contract with no seniority number.

[Icarus2001]

VA are added to the end of VARA's list, VARA are added to the end of VA's list. Anyone joining after that is at the bottom of the single list.Sorry I may be dim or reading the words in some obscure interpretation but did two lists become one? If so who is at the top? Or is there a list for VA and VARA and then the SINGLE list?

What I do know is that I am seeing outside recruitment on to the 737 right seat from both VARA F100 and also external applicants.

[davidclarke]

You’ll find that’s also happening with the Tiger integration. Except of course for those on a short term contract with no seniority number.

Yep tiger permanent pilots will go to almost the bottom of the group list.
By the time integration goes thru probably won't be any contract pilots left to go on the list. They are leaving in droves.

[donkey767]

Anyone got any insider knowledge on whether they're still struggling to crew the Perth 737 base or if they're back at normal numbers?

[Icarus2001]

I guess the contract pilots don't have very long left to go on the original deal? Guessing about 5-6 months?

[davidclarke]

I guess the contract pilots don't have very long left to go on the original deal? Guessing about 5-6 months?

June 2018 I think the contract is up. Considering almost 2/3 of the FOs are now contractors they might be in trouble soon🙄

[morno]

Apparently some of them haven’t even flown an aeroplane yet.....

[206greaser]

As it turns out now all the Tiger contract peeps will be given full time positions, and with that a position on the GDOJ. They will get these positions ahead of people already on the list without bidding as is the normal process. Another VA cluster f_€%!!

[davidclarke]

As it turns out now all the Tiger contract peeps will be given full time positions, and with that a position on the GDOJ. They will get these positions ahead of people already on the list without bidding as is the normal process. Another VA cluster f_€%!!

EOI's to go to TT were put out to all VA pilots a few months ago with very little interest. All the TT contract pilots would go to the bottom of the GDOJ......what's the problem?

[206greaser]

Well from what I was told, it was a very light on information EOI and only one week to reply. With no input from the unions on the deal it’s not hard to see why there was little uptake. I’d imagine a good number of SO’s and ATR crew would have considered it given time to consider it. It was the company’s obligation to put it out, they did the bare minimum as usual. Also from what I’ve heard the ones that did express interest where denied anyway. So now we have a situation where contract pilots will take narrow body jet positions in capital cities ahead of guys on the the list. If VA cared less about seniority they’d struggle to show it.

[donkey767]

Anyone able to shed some light on what the planning exercise during the assessment day involves? I gather day 1 is all behavioural based and no tech questions?

[Aussie-kiwi]

Anyone able to shed some light on what the planning exercise during the assessment day involves? I gather day 1 is all behavioural based and no tech questions?
donkey767: One day is the SIM. The other is a panel interview and group exercise. PM me if you want a rundown.

[donkey767]

donkey767: One day is the SIM. The other is a panel interview and group exercise. PM me if you want a rundown.

Would be greatly appreciated mate! tried sending you one but it looks like your PM's aren't turned on.

[das Uber Soldat]

Any idea how long it generally takes for references to be checked? Are people getting start dates or into the holding pool? Thanks.
14 months for me :E

[Altimeters]

Yeah I’m not sure they’re desperate any more. I’ve been on 4 days off and not been called once (not that I’m complaining) just stating facts. I’m sure others have different views, but perhaps they’re trying to tighten up the cash spent on calling in crew?

[normanton]

Yeah I’m not sure they’re desperate any more. I’ve been on 4 days off and not been called once (not that I’m complaining) just stating facts. I’m sure others have different views, but perhaps they’re trying to tighten up the cash spent on calling in crew?
It's cheaper to cancel a flight, than calling in crew on their day off. Didn't you know? :}

[APBabySitter]

I applied for this job a few months ago and received an email yesterday saying I've been successful and to do the online psych testing and await further details. I'd keep hassling them if I was you kcboy and see what happens.
If anyone has recently done the psychometric online testing and has a recommended website or book they used to practice I'd love to hear about it. I've done a few of these at different airlines over the years but each place seems to use it's own specific type of test.
Aussie-kiwi if the offer still stands for some group testing and sim info I'd be most grateful.

[Gmac115]

Anyone attend an assessment day in the last couple of weeks and receive a yay or nay yet?

Does VA contact you before calling references?

[Bimax]

Anyone got any insider knowledge on whether they're still struggling to crew the Perth 737 base or if they're back at normal numbers?

Does anyone have current info on this? I'm also interested :)

[donkey767]

My assessment day had a couple of GA pilots and the rest were all people with multi-crew experience. Unsure of what total time the other candidates had, but I gather the lower experienced applicants are being targeted for the ATR opposed to 777 or 737.

[Brakerider]

My assessment day had a couple of GA pilots and the rest were all people with multi-crew experience. Unsure of what total time the other candidates had, but I gather the lower experienced applicants are being targeted for the ATR opposed to 777 or 737.

You'd be wrong. Pilots with no multi-crew or turbine experience are being recruited directly into 737 positions. Virgin don't want experienced pilots, they want trainable monkeys.

[Flyboy1987]

You'd be wrong. Pilots with no multi-crew or turbine experience are being recruited directly into 737 positions. Virgin don't want experienced pilots, they want trainable monkeys.

Over 3200 hours, 700 multi.....not experienced enough to sit online testing for 777 SO

[Power]

Over 3200 hours, 700 multi.....not experienced enough to sit online testing for 777 SO

Says it all really. Airline recruitment in Australia is a sad joke.

[Flyboy1987]

Says it all really. Airline recruitment in Australia is a sad joke.

Yes was a bit disappointed, I imagine there were simply higher experienced guys flying multi crew on turbo props jumping ship.

Anyway, cross VA off the list and i’ll go somewhere else.

[Biatch]

Over 3200 hours, 700 multi.....not experienced enough to sit online testing for 777 SO

FFS... :ugh:

This is exactly the type of guys VA needs...

[Wiggley]

Over 3200 hours, 700 multi.....not experienced enough to sit online testing for 777 SO

By the sheer amount of regional turboprop skippers and FO's getting in recently you might find that you were just trumped by people with those sort of hours. Unfortunately a lot of the culling seems to be automatic or semi-automatic.

Chin up, you've got the right sort of hours to at least have a crack at regional tp's to get some hours on things that are a little bigger and faster :ok:

[Flyboy1987]

By the sheer amount of regional turboprop skippers and FO's getting in recently you might find that you were just trumped by people with those sort of hours. Unfortunately a lot of the culling seems to be automatic or semi-automatic.

Chin up, you've got the right sort of hours to at least have a crack at regional tp's to get some hours on things that are a little bigger and faster :ok:

My exact thoughts, I believe VA have group seniority, so their current atr guys get a crack before me,which is fair.
Still would have thought that if you I met minimums, I would be tested to some degree, same as at qf. I guess testing costs money so they’re not prepared to assess everyone with 500 hours.

I’m not too concerned, currently in a good job with a few other opportunities.

[206greaser]

ATR guys have seniority?! That’s interesting! My mates there are all complaining that their seniority is worthless as the company intends to take direct entry to both the 737 and 777 over the top of them.
If you are desperate for a VA gig take the ATR and expect anywhere from 5 to 10 years. I think you’d be better off waiting and getting some decent multicrew turboprop time and going to the jet rather than the leper fleet.

[morno]

Easy fix to that, take it to FWA

[cessnapete]

Brakerider
What a patronising attitude to aspiring pilots that you and Inboundd have!
Yes Airlines do need a mix of experience levels who will learn by experience. 500 hours is fine with the correct training, to get into the RHS of a 737.
A number of large airlines (Legacy and LoCos) in the UK put cadets with 250+ hours from Flying School into RHS of A320/737. Its all in the training, not necessarily amassing hundreds of hours in GA.
A relative of mine was a wide body Capt. in the RAF with 1800 hrs total flying. Female too. (Tristar/A330)
Operated in demanding situations far more difficult than routine airline ops.

[Brakerider]

Brakerider
What a patronising attitude to aspiring pilots that you and Inboundd have!
Yes Airlines do need a mix of experience levels who will learn by experience. 500 hours is fine with the correct training, to get into the RHS of a 737.
A number of large airlines (Legacy and LoCos) in the UK put cadets with 250+ hours from Flying School into RHS of A320/737. Its all in the training, not necessarily amassing hundreds of hours in GA.
A relative of mine was a wide body Capt. in the RAF with 1800 hrs total flying. Female too. (Tristar/A330)
Operated in demanding situations far more difficult than routine airline ops.

Make it 500, 250 or even 150 hours. All options are a great big slap in the face to all those that've worked hard in GA, ticked all the "right boxes" only to be told 3200 hours and 700 multi engine isn't enough.

[Flyboy1987]

It is what it is.
The little feedback received is frustrating.

Am I close to where I need to be, or do I now need to go and get multi crew time in something plus 5.7t?

Can anyone who has gone through the whole process shed some light?

[Gligg]

My group was mostly regional crew. Others may have to wait until the (regional) hallways have been hoovered before getting a call. Apparently 150 needed this year so anything's possible!

[pilotchute]

Today I heard of the "Qantas" effect.

Apparently many people held out for years to get a shot at Qantas mainline. Well most of those people didn't get in so now Virgin has had a tsunami of applicants with high experience because they had been biding their time for years.

[surfer rosa]

My group was mostly regional crew. Others may have to wait until the (regional) hallways have been hoovered before getting a call. Apparently 150 needed this year so anything's possible!

150 this year seems like a hell of a lot! Their training dept will be flat out. I wonder if they have many pilots in the holding pool like our friends at qantaslink like to do?

[Goat Whisperer]

I would certainly expect VA to take another 100 pilots. I could believe 150.

Plenty of greybeard retirements coming up, a few SOs and younger FOs see a brighter future at QF, and many of us middle aged captains are looking abroad. Not to mention the growing debt of pilot annual leave and long service leave, and the training pipeline will be open for some months yet.

I have to speak against the assertion that ATR pilots will be there for 5-10 years. That's utter nonsense. Sure people are recruited off the street onto jets before them, but the ATR crew will always hold a higher seniority number. What's the alternative? every recruit gets 3 months on the ATR then moves on?

[206greaser]

Well Goat what good is “seniority” if it doesn’t get you positions you’ve bid for in line with the GDOJ? Explain to the ATR pilots how they have seniority but new joins will make a lot more money. I’d take money over a pseudo-seniority system. I imagine it’s easy when you’re sitting in the jet to just tell the ATR crew to wait, but wait how long?? Hiring booms don't last forever and once those domestic 73 slots are taken they could be taken for many years.

5-10 years is completely accurate if you consider the cap the company is enforcing. If you have 70 pilots and you only let 7 per year go to the jet fleet you are potentially looking at 10 years. 5 years is taking into consideration anomalies. how many have they recruited onto the ATR in the last 12 months?

[Oakape]

The ATR fleet operation needs to be protected & it can't be flooded with new recruits due to experience levels. Low experience on type & low experience in the Virgin SOP's can cause an increase in risk. There have already been incidents on the type that indicate an increased safety risk.

In days gone by this problem was addressed with bypass pay. Obviously that is an expense that the company would prefer to avoid. Perhaps the respective union should be addressing this issue.

["Littlebird"]

Holding people back in their careers due to lack of planning and execution in order to minimise risks is a very shortsighted approach.
It appears seniority plus ten percent cap equates to a noose around the neck and a hinderence to ones career progression, personal development and livelihood.
This then leads to a very agitated, disconnected, demotivated workforce and this is how the threat arises.

[shoddy88]

I have to speak against the assertion that ATR pilots will be there for 5-10 years. That's utter nonsense.

This is my first post on PPRune in years, but the stupidity of this comment truly made my blood boil.

I'm just about to graduate to 7th year ATR captain and guess what.. STILL STUCK HERE!!!! Likely won't get to leave till 2019. I've jumped all the hoops, did all the right things, passed all the retarded interviews and sim checks years ago and all we've received as a reward are lies and underhanded delay tactics from a management team who are nothing more than tricksters.

The ATR fleet is a prison and it truly sucks being a second class citizen at Virgin Australia.

5 years on the ATR is a very "uptimistic" estimate. The whole fleet is under a 10% cap. That means 10 years!!! That's the reality. The company loves to crap on and lie to your face and say they'll let more than 10% go, but its all just lies to stop people from resigning. It has never happened and there's no reason to believe it ever will.

Now they've decided to put external hires and cadets ahead of even those ATR crew who have been offered positions on the 737 6 months ago, but were never given a start date and are still stuck on the leper fleet.

The company has hired a total of 2 new pilots for the ATR in the last 6 months, but I don't know of a single captain who has less than 1000 hours of leave accrued because the company has not approved leave in 4 F@ck!ng years!!!!

A few facts about the ATR.


A new FO WILL BE STUCK on the ATR for at least 5-10 years earning less than the national average wage until a command opportunity comes up.
A command might become available in under 5 years if they're lucky, but I've never heard of anyone getting it in less than 4 to date. If the industry slows down, commands will be non existent.
If you do want to escape the ATR you have to do a full interview process the same as any external applicant. That now includes going to the Fokker 100 even tho the company has promised that would never happen. More lies.
Being an ATR pilot means you cannot apply for jobs at Tiger (you are considered an internal applicant and the answer is NO).
The rosters are absolute rubbish. Most duty's are around 10 hours long, but you're lucky to do 3 to 4 hours flying during the duty. All you do is sit at the airport fighting sleep. To give you an idea my roster recently had a 4 day block, which totals 41 duty hours. It's not a one off!!
We are not protected by CAO48 because of the exemption. This means we are regularly rostered duties of 11:30.
We are not protected by Virgins FRMS rules because we are under the Skywest EBA.
I could go on all day because this is just the tip of the iceberg. I haven't even touched on the cluster f@c$ that is the Brisbane base closure and the way crew were repeatedly lied to and mislead there.

[Knzuk]

donkey767: One day is the SIM. The other is a panel interview and group exercise. PM me if you want a rundown.

Hey, any information you have on the interview and sim assessment that you have would be much appreciated. Cheers.

[206greaser]

Well there’s an honest appraisal of life on the ATR.

As I said earlier hold out for a jet position or start looking at real estate in Canberra!

[Titan Slave]

Just wondering, silly question, why are you ATR guys still there? There is an absolute sh*t tonne of jobs going pretty much everywhere I look. Here and abroad.

[SHVC]

REX hiring DEC Krusty? Like Shoddy I'm tired of the same old stories from VA management.

[shoddy88]

Hi shoddy88.

Sounds grim. Word around the campfire is that the ATR experiment has only around 2 years of life left?

We all know about assumption, but what do you think?
Hi Krusty 34,

There are indeed a lot of rumours, but the truth is nobody knows. The only thing Virgin does well is to be completely non transparent. It's a bit like a mushroom farm, you get kept in the dark and fed sh!t.

I think there may be a lot of wishful thinking here. Pretty much everyone (over 95% of crew) would love to see the ATR operation just die. The hope is that we could move over to other fleets under the Virgin umbrella. It's a nice dream that helps people stay sane. It's entirely plausible, but I can't help thinking it sounds too good to be true. I suppose it depends how "uptimistic" you are.

The strongest rumour is that they're waiting to see what the ATSB has to say regarding FVR. It seems that the higher powers are looking to prove that the ATR is unsafe.

Another rumour is that they're going to outsource the flying to Alliance, but we're just waiting for them to get their ducks in a row. Anything is possible.


Just wondering, silly question, why are you ATR guys still there? There is an absolute sh*t tonne of jobs going pretty much everywhere I look. Here and abroad.


It's not a silly question at all. Thing is most ATR crew have left, but remember the company just cut the fleet back from 14 to 6. That's less than half the fleet so even though lots of people left, there's still just enough pilots to scrape by. Even so there are ATR's parked against the fence due lack of crew.

Here is a list of a few reasons why there are still people here.


Have a read of what I wrote above to Krusty. There is a chance that this whole nightmare will come to an end and that gives people pause before leaving.
Some people like living in Canberra so this job is their only viable choice.
A lot of people have failed to get into Q or J* and going anywhere else is a pay-cut (especially for Captains). Unless you go overseas, but then family becomes an issue for some (most).
Most of our FO's are Cadets now and they have no escape option because they have no command time.
A lot of us believed the lies they told and thought there would be progression. I'm one of the fools who falls into this category.


The list goes on....

["Littlebird"]

Shoddy88
It saddens me to hear your story of your experience on the ATR. I do know that you're legit in what you're saying as I have many friends at VAA not on the ATR and have echoed the same story to me. I also know as a fact that a few of your guys/girls currently upgrading to command are pursuing other opportunities and that is a sad state for any company to be in.I was in a similar situation as you over 20 years ago and walked and have never looked back. The industry is just starting to warm up with a goliath of opportunities coming your way.

[KRUSTY 34]

REX hiring DEC Krusty? Like Shoddy I'm tired of the same old stories from VA management.

Always possible SHVC, they’ve done it before, and incredibly they then drove most of them away! As for jumping ship, sounds a little like frying pan/Fire.

Life’s a gamble sometimes.

[Narnia Bound]

So if one were to take up an F100 positions under the VARA, would there be the same issues as the ATR guys and girls when trying to move across to 737? What about from 777 SO to 737? Is the limiting factor moving between entities within the group or moving between types regardless of entity?

[SHVC]

Moving from VARA to Virgin Narnia.

[206greaser]

Narnia yes. If an ATR pilot wishes to now move back from VA to VARA to take up an F100 position they would have to interview and sim as they are not employed by VARA if they are on the ATR. The sticking point is that the ATR crew are under the VARA EBA still and that EBA has a clause in it stating that the company has to release a minimum of 10% to the VA jet fleet per rolling 12 months. There is also a clause about bypass pay which no one seems interested in pursuing.
As to your question regarding SO to 73 FO they have in the past held people for various reasons but essentially it is the normal route and there is no such cap applied.

SHVC not sure if I’m reading you right so apologies in advance, but you do realise the ATR is and has been for 2 years a VA operation right?

[havick]

Narnia yes. If an ATR pilot wishes to now move back from VA to VARA to take up an F100 position they would have to interview and sim as they are not employed by VARA if they are on the ATR. The sticking point is that the ATR crew are under the VARA EBA still and that EBA has a clause in it stating that the company has to release a minimum of 10% to the VA jet fleet per rolling 12 months. There is also a clause about bypass pay which no one seems interested in pursuing.
As to your question regarding SO to 73 FO they have in the past held people for various reasons but essentially it is the normal route and there is no such cap applied.

SHVC not sure if I’m reading you right so apologies in advance, but you do realise the ATR is and has been for 2 years a VA operation right?

When I mentioned the thought of bypass pay for the ATR guys 6-7 months ago on here I was hounded down. Makes sense to me if the company has pidgeon holed those pilots on the ATR because they would rather only have one training event instead of two.

[27/09]

shoddy88: The strongest rumour is that they're waiting to see what the ATSB has to say regarding FVR. It seems that the higher powers are looking to prove that the ATR is unsafe.

How rediculous will that look, the ATR safe everywhere else in the world except Australia.

[27/09]

When I mentioned the thought of bypass pay for the ATR guys 6-7 months ago on here I was hounded down. Makes sense to me if the company has pidgeon holed those pilots on the ATR because they would rather only have one training event instead of two.

This has worked quite well in other airline groups in this part of the world. It just needs the respective parties to be willing.

In ths case it seems with one party the words; cake, eating, and having, come to mind.

[Titan Slave]

Sorry to hear Shoddy. Group control is a pain in the arse. My very good friends are at another large turboprop operator in the country, they are Training Capains and alike, ‘failed’ apparently to get into the mainline, only to be trumped by single engine instructors from Flight schools.
Makes complete sense... they are now at EK being paid as they should operating a triple from the RHS.
I know it’ll come good for you, hang in there.

[27/09]

Sorry to hear Shoddy. Group control is a pain in the arse. My very good friends are at another large turboprop operator in the country, they are Training Capains and alike, ‘failed’ apparently to get into the mainline, only to be trumped by single engine instructors from Flight schools.
Makes complete sense... they are now at EK being paid as they should operating a triple from the RHS.
I know it’ll come good for you, hang in there.

Would be interesting to know why they were trumped, you'll never be told the real reason. It seems these days a compliant pilot group is more desirable than one which has competence and experience.

[sumtingwong]

How rediculous will that look, the ATR safe everywhere else in the world except Australia.

You are joking aren't you?

[Chadzat]

A bit off topic here wrt recruitment.

In terms of the bypass pay issue, there are a number of issues that the Unions have identified that would be a problem if there was a dispute that ended up at fairwork. (Which it would as the company wouldnt just roll over).

1. EBA's dont bind on other EBA's. The history and intent of the bypass pay clause is to apply WITHIN VARA. Bypass pay is not mentioned within the Group Career Progression clause.

2. The Company would argue until they are blue in the face that the 10% cap clause would be their get out of jail free card. - quite hard to argue against.

On a related note it amazes me the amount of whining about the cap coming from ATR pilots. My knowledge is that without this cap then integration would never have been agreed to by the company (VARA) at the time of the last EBA. Surely some movement is better than potentially none (or limited/unstructured as in the qlink case)

[Narnia Bound]

Narnia yes. If an ATR pilot wishes to now move back from VA to VARA to take up an F100 position they would have to interview and sim as they are not employed by VARA if they are on the ATR. The sticking point is that the ATR crew are under the VARA EBA still and that EBA has a clause in it stating that the company has to release a minimum of 10% to the VA jet fleet per rolling 12 months. There is also a clause about bypass pay which no one seems interested in pursuing.
As to your question regarding SO to 73 FO they have in the past held people for various reasons but essentially it is the normal route and there is no such cap applied.

SHVC not sure if I’m reading you right so apologies in advance, but you do realise the ATR is and has been for 2 years a VA operation right?

Thanks 206greaser. If i read correctly, the group is still divided down EBA/organisational lines despite GDOJ seniority. Didn't realise that ATR was a VA operation. No a group pilot but applying and wanted to understand as best I can the implication of accepting any jobs on certain types. All come up as simple check boxes on the application but the longer term ramifications from one option to the next seem significant.

[SHVC]

206 Greaser- I realize, but you’re far from being correct. As long as we work under an EBA under a different company being VARA and as long as we have to go through the same external process as a normal applicant, ATR crew are no better off. What we gave up for a pointless GDOJ date was definitely not worth this hassle.

[206greaser]

SHVC it doesn’t sound like you do realise. ATR pilots have no dealings with VARA. They simply have a VARA EBA. Also for someone who claims to work there you would also know that the JTA has been all but scraped. It is now a chat between the pilot and members of flight ops management as opposed to what it was like 12 months ago. I do agree though that their GDOJ number is worthless if it doesn’t get them what they’ve bid for.

[shoddy88]

G'Day Shoddy88

I echo what you say as being reasonably accurate but I have to ask.

7 Years as a Captain on the Atr and you cannot get a 737 gig! WTF ?

My thought, start studying the 777 manual as when the music stops not all will have a chair to sit on. :ok:

I wish it were that simple... and...

Yes, that is correct. 7 year ATR captain and I can't get a 737 or 777 or A330 or F100 or Tiger 737/A320. Nothing! absolutely nothing for 12 months because the cap is exceeded.

My only crime is that I'm an ATR peasant who is imprisoned by the company's creative use of the 10% Cap.

I haven't done anything wrong and I'm not under any freeze or anything, I've jumped all the hoops etc . I'm not even particularly high on the seniority list (there are plenty more senior who are just as stuck as I am).

To add insult to injury, on August 1 they awarded a bunch of positions to ATR crew, but they did not give any start dates. Those crew who have been awarded positions almost 6 months ago are still getting flogged on the ATR and have no start dates. The company in the meanwhile is hiring external pilots and putting them on instead. All the while the company proudly proclaims that the 10% cap is exceeded.

It's incredibly frustrating!!!!

On a related note it amazes me the amount of whining about the cap coming from ATR pilots. My knowledge is that without this cap then integration would never have been agreed to by the company (VARA) at the time of the last EBA. Surely some movement is better than potentially none (or limited/unstructured as in the qlink case)

Nobody is whining about integration. The reason that we got integration was because when Virgin took over Skywest, certain managers were hell bent on taking away our business class international duty travel. This was something that was in our EBA and Virgin simply refused to honour it. When pilots started refusing to fly to Aukland for sim in cattle class, Virgin took Staff travel away from the entire VARA organisation. Engineers and Cabin Crew and even admin staff were sent emails saying that they can't have staff travel until the pilot "problem" is resolved.

Now I could get into a lot of detail here, but it would result in a very long post. The point is that giving up this business class duty travel was the main reason we got integration. The company didn't just do it because they're such great blokes!

The issue is that the integration came with a 10% cap, which was a huge mistake, but it was rushed through because the west coast pilots didn't really care as they were more worried about securing something ASAP before the F50 fleet was retired. (Understandable and I don't blame them).

The problem with the 10% cap is that it allows the company to completely make mockery of the the seniority system. This is achieved by offering jobs like 777SO and VANZ737FO positions. These jobs pay less than what an ATR captain gets so anybody who applies has to take a pay cut and be frozen on that aircraft type for 2 to 3 years. Of course when they offer these jobs they make plenty of false promises that there will be Australia based jobs on the 737 so that you don't have to take a pay-cut to progress off the ATR.
I and many others believed them and held out on the ATR until the good jobs came. The problem is that by the time they offer the decent jobs they've already used up the 10% (because all the FO's at the bottom of the seniority list went to NZ or the 777).
And voila... All the senior ATR pilots are stuck while the company employs more external pilots over the top for 12 months.
When the 12 months is up they offer more VANZ and 777 jobs accompanied by the usual lies and promises of AU737. The cycle repeats.
As the years have gone by, those pilots who went the 777 and VANZ from the bottom of seniority are now off their freeze and happily moving over to fly the jobs that we wanted (AU737).
Now you might think "you dumb ass, you should have gone to the 777 years ago and now you'd be ok"... Well yes, but that wasn't what we were told and most of us were tricked/deceived. Now its too late and even if the seniority list is followed they're only letting 6 pilots per year go (10%) so we are pretty well screwed.

The thing is that before integration, we were at least able to apply as external applicants. We no longer have that privilege. We still have to go through the same interview process as an external applicant, but we have fewer rights and opportunities to do so.

[Power]

Virgin sounds like an absolute ****-show!

[Gligg]

'start studying the 777 manual'

I think It's been awhile since studying the flight manual had much to do with securing a gig. Better off getting a subscription to 'Psychology Today'

["Littlebird"]

Shoddy - no job is worthy the stress you are experiencing in the hands of what is clearly a very poor management team. Work is another form of a relationship and you owe it to yourself to be happy and supported. Can I suggest that as long as you accept and are seen to accept this mistreatment by management this will continue indefinitely.
L.B

[Fonz121]

I know this doesn't help your frustrating situation but at least you have a seniority number locked away. Spare a thought for the internal applicants for mainline (link, jetstar) who interviewed in 2016 but don't have start dates until the end of 2018. A few hundred external hires jumping ahead in seniority permanently.

[jetlikespeeds]

Just quit and get a job with Qantas. You will have a much better chance than all of the internal hires due to not affecting their own subsidiary numbers. Problem solved.

["Littlebird"]

I know this doesn't help your frustrating situation but at least you have a seniority number locked away. Spare a thought for the internal applicants for mainline (link, jetstar) who interviewed in 2016 but don't have start dates until the end of 2018. A few hundred external hires jumping ahead in seniority permanently.

That's what I thought Fonz as well...although the ATR situation is far worse off. The JQ and Link guys do not have integration. The ATR guys are employed by VAA mainline not a group company...a very different situation. Imagine you are employed by QF mainline as a SO on the 330. You have seniority to move into the right hand seat of a 737 or backseat of the 380 but you can't because of a 10% cap meanwhile externals are being employed directly into these positions. In addition the company will not give you a confirmed start date. I would have told them exactly where to stick their job although not my circus.

[Fonz121]

Imagine you are employed by QF mainline as a SO on the 330. You have seniority to move into the right hand seat of a 737 or backseat of the 380 but you can't because of a 10% cap meanwhile externals are being employed directly into these positions

I do understand that but I guess our opinions of what would be worse differs. The ATR problem is temporary and as soon as you're out of there it's a non event.

Losing out on a few hundred spots on the QF list will have massive implications your whole career resulting in the loss of some serious cash.

Just my opinion.

[surfer rosa]

I wish it were that simple... and...

To add insult to injury, on August 1 they awarded a bunch of positions to ATR crew, but they did not give any start dates. Those crew who have been awarded positions almost 6 months ago are still getting flogged on the ATR and have no start dates. The company in the meanwhile is hiring external pilots and putting them on instead. All the while the company proudly proclaims that the 10% cap is exceeded.
.

So are the external hires getting Australian based 737 positions or ATR and second officer places?

[Goat Whisperer]

So are the external hires getting Australian based 737 positions or ATR and second officer places?


Mostly ATR/VANZ/777 SO jobs but also some 737 FO positions.

Keep in mind that ATR pilots who stayed on ATRs and passed up on SO/NZ 737 positions to wait for Aus 737 FO jobs will still be climbing the seniority list and have access to their preferred 737 base and 737 command in accordance with the Global Date of Joining list.

[Berealgetreal]

Wish it was “Global” Goat Whisperer (including Atalantic) but it’s only Group....at this stage!!

[shoddy88]

I do understand that but I guess our opinions of what would be worse differs. The ATR problem is temporary and as soon as you're out of there it's a non event.

Losing out on a few hundred spots on the QF list will have massive implications your whole career resulting in the loss of some serious cash.

Just my opinion.

Your opinion is valid and I'm sorry to hear what you're going through. Maybe your situation is worse, it's kind of hard to see the forest from the trees while you're the one being raped.

I will say tho that I personally would prefer to have a start date at the bottom of the Qantas list in 2018 than to be stuck on the ATR indefinitely with a meaningless seniority number.

Maybe you guys are right and it's time to dust off the resume. Bit sad really, I put a lot of time and effort in here and it feels like unfinished business.

[shoddy88]

I just wanted to say thanks to all those people who have reached out both on this forum and private messages to give words of support and understanding. It's actually been quite therapeutic to find that there ARE people out there who understand and care.

❤️

[27/09]

From what I've seen this whole pathway (including a seniority number in some cases) from a turbo prop section/subsidiary of an airline group to the mainline or jet fleet has been a total cluster fcuk in most cases.

The guys and girls who have progressed the quickest from the turbo prop fleet through the system onto mainline or jet fleet have been those who have gone outside of the system and left the group altogether and come back to the jet fleet as external applicants. Sad and perverse but true.

Those that show loyalty are the ones that end up being screwed.

Even those with a seniority number at mainline still miss out as they are not being paid the salary their seniority would have granted them at their "new fleet".

While the idea of a progression pathway and or seniority number is a very noble one and gives the sense of being looked after and feeling of security of progression it actually gives an outcome that is the reverse to its intention, especially in this demographic environment.

There is no incentive for airline management to move guys and girls up the ladder when their time comes as it hurts the airlines too much. Perhaps if there were a financial penalty involved they may be more interested. From the airlines perspective it's much better financially, to poach pilots from from outside at the risk of upsetting a few of their own pilots. That way you can transfer your financial pain to someone else.

If there was no defined/agreed pathway then airline management would not have the safety net of knowing they have a group of pilots that have a vesting interest in staying around. Pilots would be more likely to jump ship if they weren't getting a fair deal which in turn would encourage airlines to be somewhat more proactive in looking after the pilots within their group.