Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash

[Boeing 777-300ER]

Heard reports that an Afriqiyah Airbus 330 crashed just short of Rwy 09 in TIP.

Hope that there are survivors.

[Expatblue]

Confirmed.
Rumored to be flight 8U 771

[Noxegon]

Libye: 105 morts dans le crash d'un avion à l'aéroport de Tripoli (sécurité) | Tribune de Genève (http://www.tdg.ch/depeches/monde/libye-105-morts-crash-avion-aeroport-tripoli-securite)

[CISTRS]

BBC World Service confirming the above.
105 on board including 11 crew.

[first_solo]

Hllt 120720 Vrb02kt 3000 Br Few006 Bkn100 22/18 Q1009
Hllt 120650 Vrb02kt 3000 Br Few006 Bkn100 21/18 Q1009
Hllt 120630z 19004kt 090v240 3000 Br Bkn003 21/18 Q1009
Hllt 120620 Vrb03kt 2000 Br Bkn003 20/18 Q1009
Hllt 120550 00000kt 2000 Br Bkn003 19/18 Q1009
Hllt 120520z Vrb03kt 2000 Br Bkn003 19/17 Q1009
Hllt 120450z 26007kt 2000 Br Few003 19/17 Q1009
Hllt 120425z 27008kt 2000 Br Nsc 19/17 Q1009
Hllt 120420z 27007kt 5000 Br Nsc 19/17 Q1009
Hllt 120350z Vrb01kt 6000 Nsc 19/17 Q1008
Hllt 120250z 35003kt 6000 Skc 19/17 Q1008
Hllt Nil

[flyhardmo]

not good news :(

http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8676758.stm

Libya plane crash 'kills all 105 on board'

A commercial passenger plane has crashed in Libya, killing all 105 people on board, airport officials say.

The Afriqiyah Airways flight from Johannesburg had been due to land at 0610 local (0410 GMT), they said. The plane crashed close to the airport.

The 94 passengers on board the Airbus 330 are believed to be of various nationalities, including British and South African.

The 11 crew were all thought to be Libyan nationals, an employee said.

The plane had been due to go on to Heathrow airport after stopping in Tripoli.


The BBC's Rana Jawad in Tripoli says it was not clear whether the plane was on the runway when it crashed, but she says that people she spoke to at the airport said they could not see the plane.

Ambulances have been going back and forth to the airport, our correspondent says.

She adds that the weather has been sunny and clear over the past few days.

[DocSullivan]

Official statement on Afriqiyah Airways website says 93 pax, 11 crew - no details given re survivors

Afriqiyah Flight 771 crash (http://www.afriqiyah.aero/news/7-afriqiyah-flight-771-crash.html)

[ralfvd]

Dutch news source claims a Dutch 8 y/o child has survived the crash:

Ruim 100 doden bij vliegtuigongeluk Tripoli | nu.nl/buitenland | Het laatste nieuws het eerst op nu.nl (http://www.nu.nl/buitenland/2245734/ruim-100-doden-bij-vliegtuigongeluk-tripoli.html)

translation by Google:

Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nu.nl%2Fbuitenland%2F2245734%2Fruim-100-doden-bij-vliegtuigongeluk-tripoli.html&sl=nl&tl=en)

[kiwiandrew]

There are unconfirmed reports on another site of at least one survivor - rumoured to be a child from the Netherlands .

[vanHorck]

NOS Nieuws - Ruim honderd doden bij vliegramp in Tripoli (http://nos.nl/artikel/156833-ruim-honderd-doden-bij-vliegramp-in-tripoli.html)

this one refers to the one survivor too. It comes from press agency AFP

AFP.com - International News, Photos, Videos, Graphics, World (http://www.afp.com/afpcom/en)

[wasp9]

Libyan Civil Aviation Authorities have been warned officially by EASA on falling below all acceptable standards.
This includes safety oversight on its operators (a.o. Afriqiyah) and their own organization.

Most likely the Libyans will now blame non Libyans, preferably Westerners, for this disaster.

[411A]

Runway 09 is served by a VOR and an NDB approach...the NDB approach being the more accurately aligned with the runway.
In addition, patchy ground fog is quite common early in the morning during certain times of the year in TIP.
ATC services...poor, at best.
Weather reporting...likewise.

[James7]

At the time, weather was on minimuns, 09 in use, aircraft landed ahead and aircrft behind went around, landed 27 right on minimun. 09 has vor and ndb approach only. Aircraft was heard to be going around. Sad day for all. Thoughts and prayers to families.

[Boeing 777-300ER]

It seems that there are 2 survivors

[jstrains]

According to rtlnews.de a 9 year old girl from the Netherlands has survived and the plane was fully destroyed by explosion when landing

According to bild.de it was a 8-9 year old boy who survived, and the plane "crashed just a meter from the runway"

[flyboyTC]

Flight was carrying on to LGW...not LHR as above

[andrasz]

If reported time correct, accident happened one minute before sea level sunrise. With airport slightly higher, the approach would have involved transitioning between sunlit and shaded airspace. Visibility reports suggest dusty/hazy conditions rather than fog (it is the middle of the sandstorm season), with nighttime visibility 6000-5000m, dropping to 2000m (and staying there) after sunrise. Sunlit dust may produce whiteout conditions, even if reported ground visibility may have been 5000m, the sunlit part of the approach would have been flown virtually blind, at that time these conditions would have persisted almost till touchdown.

Several past TIP approach CFIT events skip to mind.

[wasp9]

Indeed RWY09 badly designed non precision approaches (both of them). Afriqiyah's inexperienced crews. Experienced crews initially were all hired expats. Libyan pilots did not fly for decades during embargo and most of them did not get tested, got their way paid through their type ratings which they after failing multiple times barely made. Now they think they can fly but see what happens in a little reduced visibility, sad.
Add to that, the long-time continuous strange habit of Tripoli TWR who want the pilots to confirm "runway in sight" before giving landing clearance (even in 0 vis!) This might interfere decision for G/Arr.

I guess Airbus will sadly get the official blame in Libya as self criticism is non existing and that's the end of the story for them.

[Yellow Shark]

WASP9 wrote: Most likely the Libyans will now blame non Libyans, preferably Westerners, for this disaster.

I think this is a pretty inappropriate comment to make.

[andrasz]

I think this is a pretty inappropriate comment to make

I think this was a comment made by someone who knows the Libyans pretty well, regardless how inappropriate it may have been...

[wasp9]

exactly, years of experience and stories there!

[qsyenroute]

Quote: "ATC services...poor, at best"

Wrong.

ATC Tripoli are highly professional, many of whom have been trained in UK.

As with the Polish presidential accident, there was a shameful lack of precision nav aids.

In the 21st Century it is unforgivable that accidents like this should continue to happen. Especially at a capital city international airport due to inadequate landing aids.

[andrasz]

The Swiss ?

I'm sure a crisis team has already been set up to work on it...
That being said, suggest we move back to the topic.

If 09 was indeed in use, the approach would have been made straight towards the rising sun. No meaningful terrain on either end of the runway, perfectly flat country within 5-10m of runway elevation in both directions for at least twice runway length.

qsyenroute: accidents during non-precision approaches don't happen because of the lack of precision navaids. They happen because time after time someone thinks that those minimums are just a suggestion, and they can go just a bit lower... Like 101... (and quite possibly this one)

[PT6A]

qsyenroute, ATC in Tripoli is shocking.

Not sure when the last time you flew there?

I have evidence (CVR Tape) to back this up... It is something that was already under investigation by EASA.

Then there is the issue of the airfield.... covered in FOD and the runway having many large holes in it.

ATC refuse to close the runway even when metal and rocks reported on the runway.

The place is / was an accident waiting to happen.

PT6A

[Just a spotter]

News footage from the scene.

Tripoli, esplode un aereo durante l'atterraggio - Tg24 - SKY.it (http://tg24.sky.it/tg24/mondo/2010/05/12/libia_si_schianta_aereo_tripoli.html)

JAS

[wasp9]

PT6A I second that.

Although the younger generation has indeed been trained in UK (Bristol) they have little experience and the older generation ATC controllers don't seem to improve. I'm talking from years of experience flying in Libya myself up till now...

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Sad.
Methink BEA will recruit as they are also in charge for this one .....

Then there is the issue of the airfield.... covered in FOD and the runway having many large holes in it.At least the runway itself is not involved (as we see in the video .. unless it's also trees on runway in addition of holes !!!)

WASP9 wrote: Quote:
Most likely the Libyans will now blame non Libyans, preferably Westerners, for this disaster.
I think this is a pretty inappropriate comment to make.

Exactly it was to write instead :
Most likely the Westerners will now blame non Westerners ,preferably Lybians for this disaster (they blame them already as I read in some messages above)

[andrasz]

Looking at the photos, it is striking how the wreckage is completely fragmented, indicating a high energy impact rather than the slow speed-low angle one would expect on an approach/go around accident. Judging by the damage to the tip of the tailfin, the whole tail structure tumbed over at least once. In my read, the aircraft cartwheeled after a wingtip hit the ground in a high bank attitude.

The small mosque in the background on this photo (http://www.corriere.it/gallery/esteri/05-2010/libia/1/tripoli-esplode-aereo_133eabd8-5da5-11df-8e28-00144f02aabe.shtml#7) is here (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=32.660911,13.119221&spn=0.002132,0.003439&t=h&z=18), placing the accident site about 1000m before threshold and about 200m to the rigth of 09 centerline (consistent with the position of the a/c taking off in the background on the video, if 27 was used for t/o).

[three eighty]

I cannot speculate on the cause of this tragic accident.

I have operated a 330 into Tripoli in the past and the aircraft intercepted a false localizer. Manual intervention and a visual approach got us down. This was "apparantly" a not uncomman occurance.

[PT6A]

380..

That is correct! for 27 of course.

We even have it on our company approach charts as it is so common!

More than once I have been cleared for a locator approach at the airport with not a single NDB station working!

I hope as part of the accident investigation the other problems will come to light and be investigated.

PT6A

[C212-100]

Anyone has any degree of certainty if it was on the approach path to Rwy 09 that this accident occured?

Looking at the weather info at the time of the accident it looks like a better judgement would be to go for Rwy 27. At that time of the day if you approach for Rwy 09 you would most likely be head-on to the rising sun and that, together with the haizy visibility you can find at this time of the year in TIP, makes the approaches to R09 kind of bilnd approaches...

About the comments regarding ATC services in Libya those who say that they are pretty go are not from this world or have never flown to TIP in recent years. There are some (few) ATC that can provide an average service and there are others (the majority) that sound like someone who has no clue about what they are doing. Still, it doesn't look like an accident directly connected to that...

Let's see what comes out of the accident investigation.

RIP.

[PT6A]

This NOTAM has been in force for a while now also:
A0033/10 NOTAMR A0032/10
Q) HLLL/QNVLF/IV/BO/AE/000/999/
A) HLLT B) 1002211047 C) 1005151030
E) TRIPOLI VOR TPI FREQ 114.5 MHZ INTERFERENCE FROM SIGNAL BEING EXPERIENCED DURING CURRENT AIRPORT DEVELOPMENT WORK (VOR SHOULD BE USED WITH CAUTION)

Yet ATC on several occasions have tried to clear us for a VOR APP even though the needle is swinging all over the place - everytime the crane moves!.

PT6A

[andrasz]

Anyone has any degree of certainty if it was on the approach path to Rwy 09 that this accident occured?

Yes (location identification 100% positive):

The small mosque in the background on this photo (http://www.corriere.it/gallery/esteri/05-2010/libia/1/tripoli-esplode-aereo_133eabd8-5da5-11df-8e28-00144f02aabe.shtml#7) is here (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=32.660911,13.119221&spn=0.002132,0.003439&t=h&z=18), placing the accident site about 1000-1500m before threshold and about 200m to the rigth of 09 centerline

[C212-100]

Thanks andrasz! By the time I was writing my post yours was not online... and I have not seen the pics yet...

[mark25787]

I'd have to initially agree with the cartwheel theory from Andrasz, by the fact that the remains of the tail section are facing 180 degrees to where you would expect them to be, i.e. they are facing away from runway 09 rather than facing it. The mosque should be on the starboard side of the airframe, not port side.

[BOAC]

I remember 09 about 8 years back, all the navaids U/S except a threshold low power NDB with no published approach - and was cleared for 'that approach'?

Luckily it was afternoon and 4km.

Quite amazing if anyone survived.

[STC-8]

Veel doden bij vliegtuigcrash - Buitenland - Telegraaf.nl [24 uur actueel, ook mobiel] [buitenland] (http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/6705037/__Veel_doden_bij_vliegtuigcrash__.html?p=1,1)

Dutch news agency reports one survivor - a 9 year old Dutch boy in fair condition at hospital. 61 Dutch nationals traveling as part of an organized tour group perished. Dutch ministry of foreign affairs has not confirmed these figures. Unconfirmed reports of some sort of technical problem shortly before landing.
Terrorism ruled out as factor. Local weather conditions were reported as being good. 93 passengers & 11 crew.

[LEM]

Flying a non precision approach in real IMC conditions with unreliable needles is definitely dangerous.

The incredible thing is that, in 2010, we still tend to trust more the raw data needles moving all over the places instead of the map.

On an airplane like this one! With the best technology and satellites available!

Giving priority to raw data is still mandatory in many companies! Selecting rose displays like 50 years ago!

This is the result!

[PT6A]

BOAC, It's still like that today.. it is shocking it really is.

PT6A

[andrasz]

Summing up, a reasonably clear picture of WHAT seems to be emerging (no intention to speculate on WHY):

Approach was made at dawn, straight towards the rising sun (sea level sunrise 6:11LT)
Conditions were hazy, reported visibility on ground ~5000m, however in sunlit haze no more than ~2000m
Depending on actual time of accident (btw. 6:00-6:10LT) the aircraft made some or all of the approach in sunlight, possibly descending into earth shadow shortly before hiting the ground.
Impact position about 1.5km from threshold, wreckage field slightly right of centerline, in line with far end of approach lights.
Very fragmented wreckage suggests impact in unusual attitude, a wings level low descent approach speed impact on flat terrain with hardly any meaningful obstacles would not have resulted in such disintegration.
Based on above a likely scenario a sharp low level corrective bank when seeing approach lights resulting in a wingtip clipping ground (or buildings).Suggested reading:
ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas DC-10-30 HL7328 Tripoli (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19890727-0)
ASN Aircraft accident de Havilland DH-106 Comet 4C SU-ALC Tripoli International Airport (TIP) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19710102-0)
ASN Aircraft accident Tupolev 104A OK-NDD Tripoli (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19700601-0)

[Cloudshifter]

Awful news.

Exactly 5 weeks ago to the day I returned from JNB to TIP on 8U771 in preference to the established carriers and was looking forward to using this route again. I didn't think much of it at the time but, when we left TIP for LGW on 09 (in the same Airbus 330-200 we had arrived on) the pilot pulled a low level high 'g' left hand turn after take off to fly a downwind pass 'in the circuit' past the terminal buildings. Have to say I was quite thrilled at the experience, thinking he was probably an ex military MIG pilot.

Now I'm thinking, should I have reported this formally to the CAA? Does CRM extend to airline passengers?

Very sad.

[Slickster]

I've been to TIP a few times. Almost all the time, the weather was fine, so the approach aids really didn't matter, for what they were.

Then, one time I went there, and the weather was really crap. So was my attempt at an NDB approach, with no DME, that was more suited to a Senecca for a particularly gruelling Instrument Rating. I guess places like TIP get away with it, because most of the time, the weather is fine.

[Spadhampton]

Maybe wild-arse crazy is SOP for that airline.

[PT6A]

There are about 20 expat pilots on contract to that airline from Brookfield.. Some very high time Airbus pilots in the ranks.

Then in contrast some of the local pilots have not flown for 10 + years due to the sanctions against Libya... Now hey presto they are skipper on an Airbus.. after rather dubious training.

So it is a real mix within the airline and Libya as a whole.

PT6A

[TBSC]

@gsyenroute

ATC Tripoli are highly professional, many of whom have been trained in UK.



If you manage to wake them up on a night arrival...
Nice memories. Who knows which kind of radar coverage (if...), ILS "on test" forever, a bit of a debris on the runway with a copule of porcupines running up and down, "mañana" handling and drinks (obviously only coke :E) disappearing quickly from the aircraft while being on ground.

[jbayfan]

I think I know who the Captain was, or at least a Captain who was one of the crew. They landed in JNB early morning from Tripoli and left the same evening very late. I am not sure how many crew members there are.

This Captain's son is a student at a flight school in South Africa and his son visited him yesterday. If he was the one in command I know he was very experienced and originally learned to fly in the UK.

I fear the worst but pray I am wrong.

[HotDog]

sharksandwich, your Biography:

Love flying!
Location:
DORSET
Interests:
Gliding

I suggest you stick to your interests and not make a bloody fool of yourself on a professional website when you haven't got a clue what you are talking about!:rolleyes:

[kotakota]

This was a modern airliner with GPS ( I take it the A330 is correct , not A310 which the media seem unable to get correct on many occasions ), we fly 737NG with GPS , surely an RNAV / GNSS approach can be made in VNAV/LNAV fully coupled ?
Maybe this is not a dodgy VOR signal at fault ? Sounds like a dawn approach after a 6-7 hour night flight ? Into sun ?

Very sorry for all concerned , appears many positioning aircrew on board.

[FiveGirlKit]

On the pictures and video available at this time, no large chunks of the fuselage are visible (one view shows a section of the side of the fuselage with about 10 windows - but nothing else).

There must have been a lot of energy involved in the accident (which is strange during the approach phase of flight), the question is what type of energy? Kenetic or explosive?

[robbreid]

Lots of news feeds on todays Kathryns Report;

The Kathryn Report (http://www.thekathrynreport.com/)

[Borderer]

The NOS reported that 62 of the passengers had the Dutch nationality, the survivor included. That may seem like a lot of Dutch on a flight from the RSA to the UK, but a Dutch travel agency was involved.

[B-HKD]

Those armchair NTSB/CAA who called for the grounding of the A330. Please be quiet.

The A330 or any other AC type does not fly by itself, and you know that. It takes takes smart pilots, perfect training, good SOP and a lot more to fly a plane safely.

Only because Lybia and their leader (gov. owned airline) invested in a modern fleet, does not make them immune from bad piloting skills, bad MX atc.

[Icarus]

Is it me, or can anyone else not see any evidence of any burning/fire in the video clip posted? Might that point towards contributing factors?

[Juliet Sierra Papa]

Is it me, or can anyone else not see any evidence of any burning/fire in the video clip posted? Might that point towards contributing factors?

Also noticed that.

[Kelly Hopper]

[QUOTE]Is it me, or can anyone else not see any evidence of any burning/fire in the video clip posted? Might that point towards contributing factors?/QUOTE]

It's not you, I was thinking exactly the same and wondering why no-one had picked up on it? Sobering thoughts going through my mind now.

[cldrvr]

BBC reporting crew requested fire and ambulance on standby prior to crash.

[eltonioni]

Burned out pick up truck being removed @ 1:16

YouTube - Libya plane crash kills all 104 on board - 12-05-2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41z04fa0M10).

[LGW Vulture]

Burned out pick up maybe - but, when might that have burned out? This morning, last week .....! :ugh:

[heli-cal]

At 1:34 the camera pans over a section of (apparently) burned fuselage window section.

[STC-8]

Dutch news reports crew had technical problem just prior to landing.
Weather conditions reported good at airport.
62 Dutch nationals traveling as tour group perished.

According to the below report the aircraft was nearly new, delivered in September 2009 with 1,600 flight hours over 420 flights

nrc.nl - Binnenland - 61 Nederlanders dood bij vliegtuigcrash Libië (http://www.nrc.nl/binnenland/article2542766.ece/61_Nederlanders_dood_bij_vliegtuigcrash_Libie)

[andrasz]

Is it me, or can anyone else not see any evidence of any burning/fire in the video clip posted? Might that point towards contributing factors?

One larger fuselage section (http://www.corriere.it/gallery/esteri/05-2010/libia/1/tripoli-esplode-aereo_133eabd8-5da5-11df-8e28-00144f02aabe.shtml#15) appears to be covered with soot. During a complete disintegration like this, most of the remaining fuel on board would be vaporized and go up in a fireball at the point of initial impact, leaving very little residual fire, especially in a desert with no undergrowth. Items in the immediate vicinity of the fireball would be covered with soot, but much of the wreckage would heve been thrown clear by the force of impact and momentum.

A fuel starvation scenario would result in a power loss and belly landing, keeping the aircraft more/less intact, not what we see here.

[Icarus]

Eltonioni:
I'll rephrase, ..evidence of any burning/fire.. in regard to the fuselage, airplane fixtures and fittings, and the surrounding area.. (such as trees - very dry trees!) nor scorched ground etc.) I might even hazard a guess that the truck (which only appears burnt) if so, may have been caused through other incendiary means or might just be extremely dirty and filled with dark soil.

Andrasz:
One larger fuselage section appears to be covered with soot. - don't agree, looks more like dirt/ground soil to me.

[Raggyman]

Burned out pick up truck being removed @ 1:16

YouTube - Libya plane crash kills all 104 on board - 12-05-2010.

The pick up truck could have also had fuel in it's tank.

[lomapaseo]

Nit picking I know, but the pictures of the Orange box with the cover off in the news link in post #24 attracted my attention.

[finfly1]

This quote from a NYC CBS news report:

"Foreign media is quoting a Libyan security official as saying the plane "exploded on landing and totally disintegrated."

[aterpster]

Andrasz:
qsyenroute: accidents during non-precision approaches don't happen because of the lack of precision navaids. They happen because time after time someone thinks that those minimums are just a suggestion, and they can go just a bit lower...

Are you saying that deliberately busting minimums on NPAs is the only reason they are less safe than a precision or other type of vertically-guided approach?

I hope that isn't what you intended to imply.

[forget]

Nit picking I know, but the pictures of the Orange box with the cover off in the news link in post #24 attracted my attention.

Nothing has been compromised or 'removed'. The mounting racks etc are incidental. The memory is in the cylindrical/spherical parts you can see. Nobody on site could possibly get inside these.

[beaglecp]

BBC reporting crew requested fire and ambulance on standby prior to crash.

Cldrvr: Do you remember where you saw/heard this? It's not mentioned on the BBC's website article

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Nobody have a idea of the cargo if any other than luggages ?

[Giggey]

Initial information's says that the cause of the crash was a late go around attempt carried out below minimums wile flying an NDB rwy 09.

3 Libyan crews, 1 cpt 2 fo's

Airplane delivered in september 5A-ONG

[beaglecp]

Initial information's says that the cause of the crash was a late go around attempt carried out below minimums wile flying an NDB rwy 09.


And the source?

[Giggey]

And the source?

My ex colleagues down there :(

[xetroV]

Nit picking I know, but the pictures of the Orange box with the cover off in the news link in post #24 attracted my attention.
The cover was not removed. Modern FDRs just look that way.

http://muirheadavionics.co.uk/images/ssfdr.jpg

[andrasz]

Are you saying that deliberately busting minimums on NPAs is the only reason they are less safe than a precision or other type of vertically-guided approach?

Not at all, the widespread availability of precision approaches have greatly improved overall safety in the past 20 years. However if you look at the pattern of non-precision approach accidents, a disturbingly high proportion happen due to going below minimums, inadvertantly or deliberately. Rule #1 when doing a NP approach - know when to abandon it.

[White Knight]

Yellow Shark (post #18) and qsyenroute (post #21) - forget the political correctness here. Tripoli ATC is dire!! Trained in the UK means nothing when you have a certain mindset in life. And they will blame everyone but themselves - it's the 'Maghreb way'....

x-feed - I would say it's not a 330 problem at all! The CX incident was a RR problem, not the aeroplane:hmm:

The FMS line selectable VOR 09 for TIP works fine as long as you're at the platform altitude before the automatics capture the profile and go into FINAL APP mode. I've seen it happen myself there - in fact it's known that the FINAL APP mode won't capture on most line selected RNV approaches unless you are at platform on these aircraft.. The answer - if visual handfly the aeroplane, else go around and start again..

So - what do they do with all the gazillions of oil money? A decent ILS system wouldn't be much to ask for would it? Oh heck - this is LIbya we're talking about here:{:{

[LoboTx]

Haven't seen this bit about the "inlet" here yet. Something for you pros to speculate about ---

One passenger wrote on "Twitter" on approach to the airport that something was wrong with the plane, referring to a "left wing inlet," Dutch media reported. The pilot of the plane appeared to know he was in trouble upon approach, calling ahead to Tripoli to request ambulances be at the ready.

Regards,
LoboTx

[andrasz]

The pilot of the plane appeared to know he was in trouble upon approach, calling ahead to Tripoli...

Seems to carry little credibility at present, were it true I'm sure the libyan press would be full of headlines like "heroic pilot fights composite crackerbox to the end..." by now. Given time, someone would figure out how to spin the Swiss into the story as well on the baddie side.

[finfly1]

Are passengers now allowed to be twittering on approach? In Libya anyhow?

[Out Of Trim]

Haven't seen this bit about the "inlet" here yet. Something for you pros to speculate about ---

One passenger wrote on "Twitter" on approach to the airport that something was wrong with the plane, referring to a "left wing inlet," Dutch media reported. The pilot of the plane appeared to know he was in trouble upon approach, calling ahead to Tripoli to request ambulances be at the ready.

Regards,
LoboTx


I wonder if they meant left wing winglet. I recently saw a photo of one of their A330-200s without a winglet on one wing.

Which of course is not a problem - slight performance penalty only.

[brockenspectre]

I, too, heard a news report (I am sure it was BBC) that said the pilot had reported a malfunction and had requested emergency services to be readied but that the aircraft exploded prior to landing. I can't, now, find that same report written on the BBC website but I will continue looking to provide attribution.

The local newspaper story (in English) is here (http://www.tripolipost.com/articledetail.asp?c=1&i=4432)- still not the wording I know I heard in the breaking-news story but.. a different pov maybe?

[A4]

- in fact it's known that the FINAL APP mode won't capture on most line selected RNV approaches unless you are at platform on these aircraft..

That's because you need to be at platform altitude - if you're not at platform you're not flying the approach correctly. There's no strange phenominen here just incorrect technique.

If you look at the coding for a typical RNAV approach, which should always be checked against the published procedure for accuracy to ensure "the box" does what the the plate tells you should be doing, below the platform line i.e. FD09 there will be the final approach flight path angle i.e. -3.1°.

If you are not at platform, how can the box sequence the command to descend?

Modern FMS / autopilot systems are very reliable - provided they are operated correctly. We've all heard of automation complacency, mode error etc. Coupled NPA/RNAV/GNSS/Managed approaches are still relatively new and it is encumbent upon every pilot who operates a modern type to ensure they fully understand how their particular ship goes about flying these approaches. Sounds obvious but there is still confusion out there.

A4

[henryarundel]

The aircraft was at LGW last week minus one winglet.

[White Knight]

Indeed A4 - just exactly what I said..... Possibly they weren't and didn't capture and tried to manually fly the profile!!!

[DC-ATE]

qsyenroute -
.....there was a shameful lack of precision nav aids.
In the 21st Century it is unforgivable that accidents like this should continue to happen. Especially at a capital city international airport due to inadequate landing aids.

And to many others that have commented on non-precision approaches here:

My only comment is if you don't see the runway/airport at minimums, simple; go around. Nothing wrong with non-precision approaches that a little training can't take care of.

[golfyankeesierra]

On this link (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Afriqiyah-Airways/Airbus-A330-202/1687937/M/) is a picture with a missing winglet.

But that is on april 10 BTW, and it has a rectification interval of 10 days..

[muf722]

Status:PreliminaryDate:12 MAY 2010Time:06:10Type:Airbus A330-202Operator:Afriqiyah AirwaysRegistration:5A-ONGC/n / msn:1024First flight:2009-08-12 (9 months)Total airframe hrs:1600Cycles:420Engines:2 General Electric CF6-80E1A3
Status:PreliminaryDate:12 MAY 2010Time:06:10Type:Airbus A330-202Operator:Afriqiyah AirwaysRegistration:5A-ONGC/n / msn:1024First flight:2009-08-12 (9 months)Total airframe hrs:1600Cycles:420Engines:2 General Electric CF6-80E1A3
INFO from AviationSafetyNetwork:

Status:PreliminaryDate:12 MAY 2010Time:06:10Type:Airbus A330-202Operator:Afriqiyah AirwaysRegistration:5A-ONGC/n / msn:1024First flight:2009-08-12 (9 months)Total airframe hrs:1600Cycles:420Engines:2 General Electric CF6-80E1A3
Status:PreliminaryDate:12 MAY 2010Time:06:10Type:Airbus A330-202Operator:Afriqiyah AirwaysRegistration:5A-ONGC/n / msn:1024First flight:2009-08-12 (9 months)Total airframe hrs:1600Cycles:420Engines:2 General Electric CF6-80E1A3Registration: 5A-ONG
C/n / msn: 1024
First flight: 2009-08-12 (9 months)
Total airframe hrs: 1600
Cycles: 420
Engines: 2 General Electric CF6-80E1A3

A very new A/C indeed.

[aterpster]

DC-ATE:
And to many others that have commented on non-precision approaches here-

My only comment is if you don't see the runway/airport at minimums, simple; go around. Nothing wrong with non-precision approaches that a little training can't take care of.

Depends upon the non-precision approach and the runway environment.

1. Is the approach guidance provided by a laterally precise landing aid, such as an LOC, LDA, or RNAV; or is it provided by VOR or NDB?

2. Is the lateral guidance aligned with the runway or is it offset, perhaps by as much as 30 degrees?

3. Is there a stepdown fix (or perhaps 2 or 3) in the final approach segment?

4. Does the runway have VGSI, or is the visual segment a black (night) grey (day) hole?

5. Is the operator's procedure to fly a constant descent angle or dive-and-drive?

6. Are the authorized visibility minimums sufficiently low that during minimum visibility conditions visual cues are progressive and marginal?

None of these 6 questions need be asked of an unrestricted ILS or properly designed LNAV/VNAV approach procedure. And, in the U.S. we now have the marvel of LPV operating on more runway ends than ILS.

Finally, RNP AR is fantastic, but the equipage and database validation/maintenance requirements set the bar way too high for many fleets.

[vapilot2004]

Am I the only one who finds it odd that whenever there is a major news story from that region of the planet, there are nearly always huge delays in getting even a semi-accurate sketch of what happened out to the media?

[DC-ATE]

aterpster -

Ya.....all your modern aids/facilities are nice when they're working, aren't they? Problem is today's pilots seem to have forgotten how to fly without all this stuff. Again.....if you can't see to land, you don't land. Pretty simple.

Now, if there were other problems associated with this particular flight, we'll just have to wait and see.

[Flymecpt]

Heard today that this was the same aircraft that was knocked out of action in Joburg a couple of weeks ago. 8U flights were cancelled for days apparently as a result of a bird strike, they ended up sending an A320 down to pick up stranded pax, local agents were fuming as could only move a fraction of the pax who were stuck - saw the aircraft myself in the SAA Technical Hanger - can anyone confirm this.

[ROI1900D]

Have any of you checked the NOTAMs for this Airport?
They sent a 319 to Jo'burg to pick up the pax.

[PT6A]

henryarundel, no that was not the same aircraft.....:ugh:

Afriqiyah SOP's do not allow for a "managed" NPA as they don't yet have approval from the LYCAA the same is true for Libyan Airlines in "their" 320's (Actually none of the Libyan A320's are 5A registered and are on another none Libyan AOC)

As of last week the VASI was not working on R/W 09 and there were several outages (not NOTAM'd) of all of the NDB stations which form the 09 approach.

Were the crew flying the approach from the database? I hope all crews flying in Libya are flying from the "box" as none of the ground equipment can be trusted in Libya, Tripoli HLLT is one of the few airports in Libya where the charts do not carry the warning that the procedure is on an experimental basis.

ATC at Tripoli lack a basic understanding of what they are doing... almost every single clearance they give over the radio is wrong and far from standard.

TCAS RA's are an almost daily event, in what is a light traffic airport.

Was any of this a factor... who knows.. but it is an accident waiting to happen... National pride in Libya needs to take a sidestep while some proper standards are forced upon them - if they refuse to accept it then they should join the rest of the African countries on the BAN list.

[Desk Jockey]

Nice to see in the video how the person who had hold of the cvr/fdr gave it a sharp technical tap on the ground....:ugh:

[PT6A]

Flymecpt, I can confirm that this did happen... that a crew flew an aircraft to Jo,burg after a known birdstrike on departure from HLLT.

I'm not sure of the top of my head which aircraft it was... however it is a choice of two.. as at the time ONF was not flying due to the missing winglet and had not been given the all clear.

PT6A

[PT6A]

ROI1900D, here are the NOTAM's they have all be in force for the last few months.

Airport HLLT - TIP - TRIPOLI INTL:

A0033/10 NOTAMR A0032/10
Q) HLLL/QNVLF/IV/BO/AE/000/999/
A) HLLT B) 1002211047 C) 1005151030
E) TRIPOLI VOR TPI FREQ 114.5 MHZ INTERFERENCE FROM SIGNAL BEING
EXPERIENCED DURING CURRENT AIRPORT DEVELOPMENT WORK (VOR SHOULD BE
USED WITH CAUTION)


A0046/10 NOTAMN
Q) HLLL/QFALC/IV/B/A/000/999/
A) HLLT B) 1003302100 C) 1010260400
D) MAR 30-OCT 26 2100-0400
E) AD CLOSED


A0061/10 NOTAMN
Q) HLLL/QMPLC/IV/BO/A/000/999/
A) HLLT B) 1003300710 C) PERM
E) STAND 14 CLOSED DUE TO WIP.


A69/09 NOTAMN
Q) HLLL/QMXLC/IV/M/A/0/999/
A) HLLT B) 0906101219 C) PERM
E) TWY(Y)CLOSED


A115/09 NOTAMN
Q) HLLL/QOBCE/IV/M/A/0/999/
A) HLLT B) 0910081014 C) PERM
E) DUE TO WIP NORTH MIDDLE OF RWY 09/27 CRANES ARE ERECTED AS THE FLW:
CRANE COORD HIGT/MSL
TC1 324011.30274N0130857.95222E 129.113M
TC2 324014.06655N0130858.55325E 120.897M
TC3 324010.70549N0130854.71021E 124.799M
TC4 324013.19879N0130855.63737E 135.300M
TC5 324015.96004N0130856.23092E 129.400M
TC6 324012.59968N0130852.39289E 129.700M
TC7 324015.09433N0130853.31757E 121.600M
TCT 324002.99146N0130919.33498E 167.070M

[DownIn3Green]

Well, I made it thru pg 3 of this thread, so my apologies if what I'm about to say it already covered, but here it is:

Most of you folks need to grow up...It's AFRICA for heavens sake...if you can't fly a non-precision approach you shouldn't be flying in the Left Seat, let alone AFRICA!!!

Remember the USAF 737 crew that killed Secretary Ron Brown???

AFRICA is not for the faint of heart and Tripoli is no different from Tunis, Algirs, D'Menija, or many other places...

Airbus Auto-Bu@@s@itSystems will never take over for basic pilot skills...

Learn to fly or stay in your automated EU World...or stick to major hubs in the USA where you can be "hand fed" by ATC....

[minimum clean]

Hi all,

my first post ever in PPrune is the try to hinder a myth growing...if it is not too late now!

Yes, there was a passenger on an Air Afriqiyah A330 and he did post on PPrune! He did so because he had missed the left side winglet on his flight. His forum name is Three Mile Final., his posting was from the 4th of may and the thread was moved now to the Tech Log.

Following the idea of gabona stick, i tend to assume, that someone in the media got it wrong and reported "wing inlet" for winglet, not knowing what was spoken of at all and mixing up two different issues.

For me sure it was a little surprise to learn from that thread, that it is no problem for buses to go with only one winglet. :bored:

Best regards!
minimum clean

[PT6A]

DownIn3Green,

It was a "local" crew... and the systems at HLLT were not working correctly... so unless they flew it from the BOX with all that auto bulsh!t you speak of then they were trusting blind faith!

Saying that it is Africa is no excuse.. they are REQUIRED to meet ICAO standards....

Do you think that the pax, most of which European understood that they stand a far greater chance of being in harms way? Just because it is Africa...

A STOP needs to be put to this fly by night attitude that still exists in that part of the world... not by all but by many including many CAA's

PT6A

[PAXboy]

PT6ASaying that it is Africa is no excuse.. they are REQUIRED to meet ICAO standards....It's not an excuse, it's an explanation and, of course they are required to meet ICAO standards but, have you never heard of the phrase 'an African solution'?


I speak as one who lived in Africa for ten years and has had family there for 40 years and one of my close relatives is current RHS and has had his ATPL for 13 years. Yes this is grim but, Yes this is Africa.

[Max Stryker]

Downin3green, as far as I remember, LDDU, where Ron Brown crashed, is still in Europe, the NDB approach that was in use at the time notwithstanding.:}

And as for the Airbus "automation-bull****", I agree with you - the Bus or the Boeing, the Fokker or the Embraer - no excuse for not knowing how to fly a non-precision approach, with or without the automation. However, as many have said before - when in doubt: go around.

[sierratangomike]

Am I the only one who finds it odd that whenever there is a major news story from that region of the planet, there are nearly always huge delays in getting even a semi-accurate sketch of what happened out to the media?

Libya is run by a repressive regime, and the media is under government control. This airline is also part of Gaddafi's moves to present himself as a major pan-African leader. It's unlikely that information will come out in the way it would in a Western country.

[PT6A]

PAXboy, also the reason why many in Africa are on the ban list.. Libyan & Afriqiyah should be on that list also... might stop Europeans and European travel reps from using them.

PT6A

[Graybeard]

Remember the USAF 737 crew that killed Secretary Ron Brown???

From what I remember, the T-43A (737-200) fleet were bought for pilot training in the 1970s. As such, they were equipped with Tacan, but only a single obsolescent continuously tuned (Collins DF-203) ADF receiver. It was many years later they were pressed into executive transport.

That approach involved NDB fore and aft, and a crosswind, excessive workload with a single ADF receiver. The USAF had operational GPS at the time, but no money for avionics upgrades, while spending $Billions on new programs.

GB

[Dr_Tre]

I've taken a 320 into TIP a couple of times. Due to the ATC 'surprise' factor, my briefings seem to take ages whilst we cover all the scenarios that may present themselves e.g. wind favouring 09 so brief for VOR app, on first contact with TIP am informed its ILS 27 then be switched to Locator 09 at 30 miles out!

Buts thats by the by (possibly)

The Locator approach published is extremely poor.

From recent memory (and extensive briefing!!!) it has no platform alt to start from, no dme check alts only timings once you fly over the beacon by which time you are only at 1350' QNH, oh and to add to the mix the descent angle (FPA on the airbus) changes to become steeper once you fly over the beacon.

I can see how such a poorly designed approach down to minimums could end in tragedy.

[Farrell]

This whole commentary on Africa being required to meet ICAO standards is nothing but a demonstration of complete naivety when it comes to knowing the region.

Yes, we can all babble on about what they should be doing and the banning and the chastising but if you haven't been out to Africa or to its neighbours in the Middle East then you are not qualified to pass comment nor judgment about how things are done here.

The governments are structured differently, officials are either corrupt, inept or both - and those who are trying to do things by the book are blocked from all sides due to kickbacks, lack of funding and quite commonly - a laid-back "mañana" attitude that is prevalent everywhere.

It's a mix of culture and education that causes it.

I managed to stay out of this thread for a whole six pages having now learned to ignore the utter hogwash that gets written between the races to see who gets to post the METAR. TAF or registration first, but couldn't hold my tongue once folks start treating Africa as "just like Europe".

Naive and inexperienced. Don't talk rubbish about things you know nothing about.

[Giggey]

when in doubt: go aroundProblem is they ****** up the go around...

Can't tell you the number of fails the expat tre's give on the sims and the company argued that the instructors were too tough.

Lack of tech background,skills and an astonishing self confidence, I'm afraid this will be the result of the investigation.

I will never forget this sentence, you might be 100% right but here you are in Libya and things goes as we say.:(

[ray cosmic]

Goddamn continent. Develop like the rest of the planet. No excuse for having under qualified crew or airport equipment. Plenty of petrodollars around!

[SoundBarrier]

PT6A, (and others calling for Africa to 'step-up')

While I agree with you the reality is that there is a blase' attitude in Africa, all centres are fraught with technical issues and underfunded and poorly trained staff in all areas.

This means that, as DownIn3Greens says, you have to up your game as PIC. You've GOT to be prepared for current and well aware of what is going on.

Yes it is no excuse that it is Africa but the fact it, this is the environment and everyone has got to do what they have to, to be able to get home in one piece. What are you going to do? Stop all flights in Africa? Not going to happen I am afraid.

There is not enough money in Africa, it is being bled of it's assets and the money is not reinvested, but squandered by it's illustrious leaders e.g. Mugabe.

[ATIS]

Airbus does have a current OEB in effect which states the Flight Director bars may not engage in go-around mode on application of TOGA power. If you do not take appropriate measures, you are just going to fly faster into the ground. And this guy was dealing with a very lightweight 330 (100 pax), she is a beast.

I must also add that this condition could occur only with a fully automatic non precision approach. However a previous poster states that this is not SOP at Afriqiyah.

[flyerstar]

ATIS - that OEB is there - at least we had it on the 320 but now removed.

regarding the conditions in Libya - we fly there very often. Runway 27 is preferred.
Rwy 09 is a dual locator approach, when most new airbuses only have one ADF reciever!

Hence as someone correctly said, its 99% of the time a visual approach without any problems.

If on that 1% you also get RWY09 with visibility at minima, then it becomes a death trap, especially if the crew is not up to standard.

God bless their souls.

[papsifo]

what astonished me usually the most is that people put everybody in the word africa. This constinent is so big and there are so many differences from north to south. You cannot just make a judgement on all africa. Some countries are doing fairly well as far as management of aviation is concerned some other are very far behind.

[wasp9]

SoundBarrier, while there might not be enough money in Africa, there sure is in Libya.
No costs were spared even within Afriqiyah but you can't buy skills, understanding and attitude.

I can confirm Giggey's training experience with Libyan pilots. If after way too many sessions, using the best programs available, you have to fail them for the X-th time they'll just claim you're a bad instructor.

[aterpster]

Greybeard:
From what I remember, the T-43A (737-200) fleet were bought for pilot training in the 1970s. As such, they were equipped with Tacan, but only a single obsolescent continuously tuned (Collins DF-203) ADF receiver. It was many years later they were pressed into executive transport.

That approach involved NDB fore and aft, and a crosswind, excessive workload with a single ADF receiver. The USAF had operational GPS at the time, but no money for avionics upgrades, while spending $Billions on new programs.

The aircraft also had a single INS. The crew was applying wind drift in the wrong direction. Had they included the INS winds in their scan they would have had the information to flag out their bad mistake.

Also, neither the crew nor their USAF handlers understood that two ADF receivers were implicitly required for the procedure being used. A good Russian pilot would have "lockstepped" two ADFs and had a solid track to the runway.

Finally, there was a question about whether the final approach segment obstacle clearance areas complied with PANS-OPS since the procedure was not annoted with a requirement to receive both locator beacons throughout the final approach segment. That one was never clearly answered.

Nonetheless, the INS wind information was being displayed and could have easily to saved the day.

Also, they could have retuned to the airport locator NDB mid-final and have simply homed to that beacon, which would have been in time to save the day. That would have presupposed they were timing the approach, though, which is doubtful.

[sharksandwich]

I suggest you stick to your interests and not make a bloody fool of yourself on a professional website when you haven't got a clue what you are talking about!:rolleyes:
Well, hotdog, they do seem to fly into the ground on a fairly regular basis, don't they?

[Huck]

It's been awhile, but I seem to remember:

- USAF rules forbade tuning navaids after crossing FAF,

- Terrain clearance was inadequate by 400' using PANS-OPS,

- The crew was at MDA and 11 degrees off course when they hit,

- Another flight crew was on the ground talking to them and assured them they were going to break out before MAP.




...So yeah, pilot error and all that, but eleven degrees on an ADF approach.....

[PT6A]

Soundbarrier,

I agree parts of Africa are way behind, Libya being one of them.

The problem is, everything is behind including their CAA. This means that the airlines are doing whatever they want - as another poster has stated the airline in question has had pilots failed by Expat TRI/TRE only to find out the decision has been reversed by a "local TRE" at the behest of the company.

The end result is that you have people who dont know what they are doing, flying in an environment that sets them up to fail, in an airline that only brings out the books and SMS system when overseas inspections are taking place.

You have brand new Airbus aircraft being operated in, what amounts to no more than a cowboy bush operation - sadly that a newly painted and shiny jet fools many people into thinking that this is a safe "European type operation". It is not... far from it.

Until the larger picture in Libya changes, put that Libyan pride aside and put the best people in the flight deck - irrespective of their nationality.

On the ground get good people that actually know the aircraft and want to work... people who bother to take their tools to SA and not just sit there for weeks on end collecting the money and not looking after the aircraft.

People who know how to change a wheel... and not try and say its fine to fly the aircraft with huge cuts running through the sidewall... people who will not try and tell a native English speaker the MEL says something else and it is ok to fly... when it quite clearly is not.

I know there are many problems in Africa (or parts of it) I have seen them first hand... but this is NO excuse for a loss of life... It may or may not have played a part in this accident.

However it has in many others and left unchecked will continue to do so... So please don't use this is Africa as an excuse it just wont wash with me.

PT6A

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Will keep it simple :)
For the moment .. I will stick with the best rumour..
The pilot declared some problems when aproaching and a explosion (or fire) occured just before the plane can reach the runway

[ex desert dweller]

OEB 188/2
One Operator reported a case where the flight crew initiated a Go Around slightly below the Minimum Descent Altitude (MDA), and the aircraft didnot pitch up as expected. The flight crew performed a non precision approach (a VORDME approach) using the FINAL APP managed guidance mode with the AP1 (Autopilot) engaged during the final approach. This OEB is issued to provide flight crews with an operational procedure to avoid such aircraft behavior. The operational procedure provided in this OEB applies to all Non Precision Approaches, for both conventional approaches and RNAV approaches, flown in FINAL APP managed guidance mode.

This information was taken from the Tech Log forum.
Is this OEB still active?
Does it apply to the A330? Pure curiosity

[STC-8]

The accident is receiving a lot of press coverage in The Netherlands due to the high number of Dutch victims.

Latest news reports mention conditions of 'poor visibility due to low hanging cloud' at the time of the crash:

De oorzaak van de crash is nog onbekend. De Libische autoriteiten sloten kort na de ramp uit dat het om een terroristische daad gaat. Volgens het Belgische meteorologische instituut KMI hing er op het moment van de vliegtuigcrash in Libië geen as van de IJslandse vulkaan boven Tripoli. Wel was er sprake van slecht zicht door laaghangende wolken.


Onduidelijkheid over aantal dode Nederlanders | nu.nl/buitenland | Het laatste nieuws het eerst op nu.nl (http://www.nu.nl/buitenland/2246414/onduidelijkheid-aantal-dode-nederlanders.html)

[andrasz]

The thread seems to be deteriorating into a lot of uninformed nonsense, as someone well pointed out unless you have lived and worked there for an extended time, please do not dig the hole you're in any deeper. That being said, I believe including Libya with the rest of Africa would be a grave insult to most other African countries...

I sense I will get a few to second... ?

[PT6A]

"De oorzaak van de crash is nog onbekend. De Libische autoriteiten sloten kort na de ramp uit dat het om een terroristische daad gaat. Volgens het Belgische meteorologische instituut KMI hing er op het moment van de vliegtuigcrash in Libië geen as van de IJslandse vulkaan boven Tripoli. Wel was er sprake van slecht zicht door laaghangende wolken."

Translation: The reason for the crash is still not known. Libyan Authorities have stated that this was not a terror incident. According to the Belgium Metrology Institute KMI there was no ash of the Icelandic volcano above Tripoli during the time of the crash. The visibility was impaired due to low cloud.

PT6A

[C-SAR]

Wind reported at time of accident was from 270. Why use runway 09? Worst approach available (if it is acceptable to say that ILS for 27 with all its limitations is better than the NPA for 09); flying into the rising sun and into low viz; with few knots of tailwind...

[D-OCHO]

Lack of tech background,skills and an astonishing self confidence
This sums up the Libian pilots mentality perfectly.

[northernlightIII]

Small point but from the photos there is very little evidence of post crash fire, not even a flash fire. Poor visibility combined with a hasty approach because of low / empty fuel ????

[johaseo]

Most likely the Libyans will now blame non Libyans, preferably Westerners, for this disaster.

I think this is a pretty inappropriate comment to make.


That is a piece of very accurate comment to make by someone who really knows Libyans

[nojwod]

I wonder how many more meaningless tangents PPRuners will head down while waiting for some meaningful findings.

It's pretty clear that the aircraft suffered a catastrophic event prior to the runway.

It's reasonable to assume that if the authorities state that the pilot had called for emergency services prior to reaching the airport then that's what happened.

Given the information so far made public it doesn't take a genius to work out the probability of the crash being caused by factors entirely outside the control of the crew.

I accept that there is a possibility that the environmental and ATC/approach aids situation may end up being found responsible, but my gut feeling from what has been reported so far is that the chances are minute.

[Biggles78]

Has anyone seen the TV footage of the CVR and FDR being "manhandled" by people on the scene. :eek: I know these devices are designed for high G and high °C but really, why risk even the tiny possibility of damaging this vital info by pinheads wanting their 5 seconds of fame in front of a camera. :=

Really sloppy security!! :zzz:

[Edit: Apologies, I missed it. Desk Jockey has already noted this in #95]

[Piper_Driver]

Methinks the tangents are now hitting the presses:

Airbus crash: pilots tell of risks approaching Tripoli airport - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7124851.ece)

I think it might be a wise idea to wait for some factual information before speculating further.

[filejw]

Giggey, knowing a little bit about what you write this could be as simply as somebody trying to make a non precision approach work when it shouldn't ..sad.

[lomapaseo]

A brief look at the pictures can conclude that the A/C did not touch down with neither gears and I think that the left wing tip hit the ground first on a full vertical attitude .

Can someone point to the photos that supposedly show this :confused:

[sharksandwich]

Since 1997 when it entered service, the 330 has been involved in a disproportionate number of mishaps, more than the elderly 737 in all the decades that plane has been flying. There is no point burying heads in sand, and blaming "local conditions". It happens everywhere.


Notable accidents and incidents

On 30 June 1994, an A330 owned by Airbus on a test flight simulating an engine failure on takeoff crashed (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/A330_test_flight_crash) shortly after take-off from Toulouse (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Toulouse), killing all seven on board.[24] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-23)[25] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-24)http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Cyprus_airways_a330-200_5b-dbs_arp.jpg/220px-Cyprus_airways_a330-200_5b-dbs_arp.jpg (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/File:Cyprus_airways_a330-200_5b-dbs_arp.jpg) http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/File:Cyprus_airways_a330-200_5b-dbs_arp.jpg)
Planform (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Planform) view of a Cyprus Airways (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Cyprus_Airways) A330-200 taking off. The undercarriage has fully retracted.



On 24 August 2001, Air Transat Flight 236 (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236), an A330-200, performed the world's longest recorded glide with a jet airliner after suffering fuel exhaustion over the Atlantic Ocean. The A330 flew powerless for 30 minutes and covered 65 nautical miles (120 km) to an emergency landing in the Azores (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Azores) (Portugal). Some had minor injures, but the aircraft suffered some structural damage and blown tyres. The aircraft was repaired and returned to service with Air Transat.
On 18 July 2003, B-HYA, a Dragonair (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Dragonair) A330-342 encountered severe turbulence associated with Tropical Depression Koni (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/2003_Pacific_typhoon_season#Severe_Tropical_Storm_Koni_.28Gi las.29) over the South China Sea (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/South_China_Sea), during the flight KA060 from Kota Kinabalu (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Kota_Kinabalu) to Hong Kong. Twelve crew members and three passengers were injured, of whom two crew members sustained serious injuries, but there were no fatalities. The aircraft landed safely at Hong Kong International Airport (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_International_Airport).[30] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-29)
On 7 October 2008, VH-QPA, an A330-303 operating Qantas Flight 72 (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72), suffered a rapid loss of altitude in two sudden uncommanded pitch down manoeuvres, causing serious injuries while 80 nautical miles (150 km) from Learmonth (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/RAAF_Learmonth), Australia. After declaring an emergency, the aircraft landed safely at Learmonth. A total of 106 people onbord the Airbus A330 were injured, 14 seriously. A year after the incident Qantas still does not know what caused the critical computer malfunction.[31] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-ATSB_MR_20081008-30)
On 1 June 2009, Air France Flight 447 (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447), an Airbus A330-203 en route from Rio de Janeiro (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Rio_de_Janeiro) to Paris with 228 people on board, was reported lost over the Atlantic Ocean.[32] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-31) The aircraft crashed in the Atlantic Ocean 400–500 miles northeast of the islands of Fernando de Noronha (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Fernando_de_Noronha). All 228 passengers and crew were presumed killed. Malfunctioning pitot tubes (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Pitot_tube) provided an early focus for the investigation.[33] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-32)
On 13 April 2010, Cathay Pacific (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Cathay_Pacific) Flight 780, an Airbus A330-300 from Surabaya (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Surabaya), Indonesia made an emergency landing at Hong Kong International Airport due to dual engine problem. Several tires deflated as the aircraft landed at high speed with severe braking.[36] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-35) On board the flight were 309 passengers and 13 crew. Eight passengers were injured.[37] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-36)[38] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-37)
On 12 May 2010, Afriqiyah Airways (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Afriqiyah_Airways) Flight 771 (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Afriqiyah_Airways_Flight_771), an Airbus A330-202, crashed on approach to Tripoli International Airport (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Tripoli_International_Airport), Libya (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Libya) on a flight from OR Tambo International Airport (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/OR_Tambo_International_Airport), Johannesburg (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Johannesburg), South Africa. 103 of 104 people on board were killed. A 10-year old Dutch boy survived.[41] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-BBC8676758-40)
I have removed sabotage and faulty loading from list, as suggested by coastrider.

[ALK A343]

You have got to be joking, there is no point just pasting some information from another website without reading it first.
How many of those incidents / accidents can be attributed to a design flaw of the A330? I would say the Qantas A330 and possibly the Air France, if they ever find the FDRs. The Airbus Test flight was what the name implies and it went horribly wrong. Are you really trying to say that the A330 should withstand couple of RPG rounds fired at them by terrorists, which was the case in Sri Lanka? Last time I checked no aircraft was immune to hijacking and cargo-hold fire due to spilled chemicals either.

[sharksandwich]

I'm not suggesting all the incidents are due to design flaws.
I am suggesting the airbus has been involved in a disproportionally large number of incidents, when you compare its total air miles with the aging 737.
Perhaps it is just an unlucky aircraft.
Perhaps the type attracts younger, less experienced but more computer savvy pilots.

[deSitter]

I agree - no soot - that's dirt - the long score below the windows indicates that part of the fuselage was dragged against a hard object (i.e. a sharp rock) on the ground. Or that could just be a crack. In any case the windows are covered in the same color dirt as the ground.

I'm guessing fuel exhaustion + stall.

-drl

[Coastrider26]

@ sharksandwich

You obviously love your 737 nothing wrong with that. But stating that hijacking, terrorist attacks and guy stating there are explosives on board has nothing to do with any ac type at all... why didn't you cut those out of your post???? sounds more like an FSX fan post to me..

[Machaca]

sharksandwich:

I'm not suggesting all the incidents are due to design flaws.
I am suggesting the airbus has been involved in a disproportionally large number of incidents, when you compare its total air miles with the aging 737.
Perhaps it is just an unlucky aircraft.
Perhaps the type attracts younger, less experienced but more computer savvy pilots.

So then what exactly are you attempting to offer the forum with your inane suggestion equating random unrelated events and luck (of all things) between types without including any numerical or statistical analysis whatsoever???

And the comment regarding type attractiveness to crews is the most ridiculous thing I've read all year!

snarksandwich, maybe?

[flyerstar]

Guys it was CFIT.

There is no other way to look at it.

Weather at the time and for 45 mins after was below minima.

A preceding aircaft went around (alitalia) and probably diverted to Malta.

The crew reported on ATC to another aircraft that they could not see the runway.

To sum it up: CFIT due to pilot error. Unfortunate indeed.

[speedbird716]

First and foremost, let us take a moment to pause and reflect upon the lives that were lost in Tripoli yesterday.

While I loath to speculate as to the cause of the crash, there are some factual points that come to my attention.
We have a wide debris field with extreme destruction of the aircraft, which suggests a high energy impact. The aircraft is in very small pieces, yet I do not detect a great deal of fire related damage. I point to the videos in which trees appear in and around the debris field. Would trees not be scorched as a result of an explosion and/or fire? Also, the damage to the top of the tail fin, is this impact damage?
The crew called ahead indicating they had a "technical problem" and that ambulances and full emergency response be on hand at landing. We don't know how far in advance of the impact that call was made. Clearly something serious was going on and the crew (at least up front) were aware of it.
METAR (courtesy first solo): HLLT 120420z 27007kt 5000 Br Nsc 19/17 Q1009 -- HLLT 120350z Vrb01kt 6000 Nsc 19/17 Q1008. Prior to the crash, winds were negligible and after the crash, the winds were out of the west at 7kts. Shifting winds, especially into a tailwind situation could create a shear condition, but it should have been well within the tolerances for an A330.Theory: Could a catastrophic technical fault cause an aircraft upset that would have resulted in an unrecoverable loss of control at a critical point in the approach? What kind of technical fault could cause such a loss of control?

We shall have to wait for the FDR/CVR information to get the real reason(s) this tragedy occurred.

We can and should ask questions and even if we have theories (as I do), I believe it better to ask it in the form of a question to generate some discussion as the facts become more known rather than to make definitive statements based on incomplete information.

I know that with three serious incidents and two hull losses within the last year, the A330 is going to be scrutinized. It should be. That said, there is nothing to suggest that there is anything flawed with the aircraft and until something factual is determined, to blame the airplane for this or any of the other incidents is irresponsible. Nobody should blame the crew, the airport, or the continent, for that matter...not until the facts are known.

Remember, we are all one breath away from eternity. Right now, we should remember the 104 people whose shall breathe on this earth no more and be grateful for the one survivor whose breath was not extinguished yesterday.

Dave Lamb
speedbird716

[SomeGuyOnTheDeck]

I registered (as SLF) on this forum a week or two ago, under the impression that professional pilots used this forum. Having read the ludicrous conspiracy theories, pointless speculation, and egocentric self-promotion that passes for 'argument' on this forum, I can only hope I was mistaken...

I have no idea what caused the crash in Libya. Neither do you. Analysis requires evidence - and 'being 'right' before the evidence is available is just another way of being wrong.

[ATCO1962]

sharksandwich,

You need to do a little research using some of the very good web databases before you talk about disproportionately large number of incidents involving the A330. All modern Boeing and Airbus products enjoy very low accident rates in comparison to their earlier stablemates. Just look at how many B737s were going down in their first 13 years of operation and you'll see that there is no comparison between them and the A330.

We've come a long way, baby, and accident rates will continue to fall, at least in the most modern types of aircraft coming onto the market.

edited for spelling!

[Cleared Visual]

As a mere SLF with a keen interest in the aviation industry, I often lurk but rarely post on this forum, preferring to hear what professionals have to say about such incidents as what has tragically occured in Tripoli.

I am somewhat puzzelled at why the moderator's on this occasion have not yet removed posts by a user calling themself 'sharksandwich' that are sweeping, unsubstantiated general statements that in no way contribute to the discussion here. A quick search of the ASN database reveals that one model of the boeing 737, the -200, has been involved in some 95 accidents resulting in hull loss and 2446 fatalities since introduction into service in 1967 (i stand to be corrected on the year).

The A330, introduced in the mid 1990s has been involved in 4 hull loss accidents resulting in 339 fatalities. approx 600 A330s have been built and just over 1100 732s. The A330 has a passenger capacity 2.5-3 times larger than the 732. Based on these numbers I fail to see how the A330 is a particularly dangerous aircraft that should be withdrawn from service.

I suggest sharksandwich you research the history of the DC-10 if you would like to see a disproportionately high number of accidents/incidents. And even the DC-10 is still safely operated today. Even the trusty old 727 found heavy criticism in early service following some high profile accidents attributed to high sink rates due to the design of the aircraft, and it too continues in service today without a redesign...

Apologies for the thread drift to the real professionals out there. I respect your opinions because you back them up with real world knowledge and experience.

[justawanab]

someguyonthedeck,

I'm also SLF and come here hoping to find a balanced, professional, view of the facts of aviation incidents. Sadly, as you have found, while there is a lot of real factual detail in here from the majority who are truely intelligent, professional and knowledgeable people (not just aircrew but also ground and other SLF like ourselves) I find myself having to sit through what are often little more than schoolyard arguements from a minority of egotistical idiots.

Fortunately the good generally outweighs the bad, you just have to persevere.

[PJ2]

SomeGuyOnTheDeck, JustaWanab, Cleared Visual;
I registered (as SLF) on this forum a week or two ago, under the impression that professional pilots used this forum. Having read the ludicrous conspiracy theories, pointless speculation, and egocentric self-promotion that passes for 'argument' on this forum, I can only hope I was mistaken...
Not mistaken...you're just seeing what usually happens immediately after a serious/fatal accident. One or two have contributed something worth reading. There are a few who clearly have their biases and are well worth ignoring. Most in between know nothing and aren't shy about proving it.

For obvious reasons you won't find professional pilots, safety specialists or accident investigators offering their thoughts on this thread. Not at the moment anyway.

However look around PPRuNe; there are many threads, the AF447 one for example, where a high degree of professionalism, knowledge and experience have been offered by serious contributors who know what they're talking about, that are truly worth spending time reading on.

At present, experienced, knowledgable members know that their contributions won't even be read or valued. The signal to noise ratio is far too high. Perhaps check back in a while. In the meantime, please don't consider the level of discussion here, especially the usual conspiracy and standard anti-Airbus agendas an indication of the kind of thinking that can actually go on in a serious discussion between those who do the work and know stuff.

I don't get the feeling that this outcome had anything to do with the airport, the navaids, ATC or the country the accident occurred in.

PJ2

[Cardinal Puff]

SomeGuy

The intelligent discussion is usually to be found in JetBlast. For some reason, the mods insist on sending this drivel down there when it reaches critical mass. Once there it's usually kicked into shape or ignored and allowed to die.

You could always do what those who know better do - Play Mornington Crescent while they wait for the accident report to be released.:}

[vapilot2004]

For obvious reasons you won't find professional pilots, safety specialists or accident investigators offering their thoughts on this thread. Not at the moment anyway.


My input here thus far has been directed solely at the blackout on early media coverage. :p

The AF447 thread you spoke of, I offered many an informed viewpoint within by the way sir.

[flymaui7]

You have a very good point my friend. With the tech, gps and map displays one should think it is the one to use. But the authorities insist on raw data. Having said that ...no one can Monday night quarterback the guys flying. Let's just say a prayer for them. We as pilots live in the soapers' house, meaning we can all slip and slide any day. That is why we must keep our witts.:sad:

[PJ2]

vapilot2004;

I wasn't referring to your own good work, which I know. I think most who have read this thread have separated the wheat from the chaff; my apologies nevertheless, if you felt my thoughts were in your general direction. I was attempting to reassure a newly-joined poster who describes himself as an "SLF", (dislike the term - too disrespectful of those who pay our salary but I've lost that battle!), and offered a view which I suspected risked being mis-interpreted but which also offered encouragement.

PJ2

[PJ2]

Statistical (http://www.boeing.com/news/techissues/pdf/statsum.pdf) Summary of (http://www.boeing.com/news/techissues/pdf/statsum.pdf) Commercial Jet (http://www.boeing.com/news/techissues/pdf/statsum.pdf) Airplane Accidents (http://www.boeing.com/news/techissues/pdf/statsum.pdf)
Worldwide Operations (http://www.boeing.com/news/techissues/pdf/statsum.pdf) 1959 - 2008 (http://www.boeing.com/news/techissues/pdf/statsum.pdf)

PJ2

[vapilot2004]

PJ2, I was really just looking for trouble. No worries and I admit having been informed by the likes of you here in other threads. :ok:

[andrasz]

It's reasonable to assume that if the authorities state that the pilot had called for emergency services prior to reaching the airport then that's what happened.

Of the many overnight posts this is the one I find the most ludicrous ...:ugh:

Wake up! It's Libya we are talking about here. Compared to Libyan official statements, this thread may be considered reliable factual information.

[PJ2]

vapilot2004;
I was really just looking for trouble.
:) :}

[C-SAR]

I am in Tripoli now, and I was here yesterday at time of occurrence.

So far it is clear that:

Accident site has been heavily contaminated by hundreds of people wondering around, moving wreckage, picking up evidence, etc. (look at viedos and pictures and if you have ever done an accident investigation you know what I mean)

So called statements about exploding before impact or calling ATC to alert emergency services are from uncontrolled sources (those of you who know this part of the world can figure the situation.... a security officer, who is a cousin of my sister in law has told me that he heard... etc.)

Relative High energy impact and "cartwelling" rather than flat short landing, given the extent of wreckage field.

Good teories to explore:

Pilots Fatigue,
Fuel Starvation,
Pilots short of practice on NPA approaches
Last second ample correction to re-align with centerline

Contributing factors:

Choice of runway
weather, rather visibility at time of impact
status of nav aids

Any other thoughts....?

[arem]

TV pictures last night did show firemen putting out some sort of fire amongst the wreckage.

[mickk]

If you dont want speculation, change the name of the forum. Rumours and news is what you get otherwise.

[nugpot]

cairndow_123

I have yet to read speculation over the lack of
post impact fire, could it be they were flying on fumes, and had no option but to go for a landing ?

I might be alone in my way of thinking, but fuel starvation is normally not a cause I consider. Modern jets don't burn as often as you think - with or without fuel on board.

Except for that, there are so many checks and balances built in with airline operations, that (despite what you read about commercial pressures) airlines don't land "on fumes". Pilots will be very worried when projected landing fuel (which the a/c continually updates for you) gets close to minimum diversion fuel. You have to be seriously mentally challenged to let fuel levels get down to where you have no options. Airliners don't do too well landing deadstick on unprepared surfaces.......

With every accident I see the same questions on fuel levels when the wreckage did not burn. They are not necessarily related. Do a bit of homework on these two sites:
Aviation Safety Network > (http://aviation-safety.net/index.php)
and The Aviation Herald (http://avherald.com/)
and get back to me on accidents with and without fuel where the wreckage burned or not.

Asking a question on PPRuNe does not constitute research!

[heli - mate]

I sat in my office yesterday and read with despair the diatribes surrounding this event. Strangely, I am a Brit who works for Afriqiyah; yesterday was a day I could have done without, even after 40 years in The Industry. It called upon all my experience to manage the day. Yet all the speculation and comments from armchair pundits still appears after an incident. I knew all the crew on yesterday's flight from my previous life in flight management, and lost some good colleagues. I wish this speculation would stop. Afriqiyah is a small airline, where everyone knows everyone else - the same spirit of cameraderie as was with Dan-Air or Laker. As you are all aware there is no single cause to an accident, but a sequence of events that culminates in tragedy. To question the crew's competence is uncalled for; the ex-chief pilot of Austrian Airways, and senior pilots from Sabena/SN Brussels also work for Afriqiyah. The sim training is done locally here, in Crawley, not in a Bedouin tent full of hookah pipes in the desert. Furthermore, they possess an excellent command of basic good airmanship - something which I think is disappearing fast. I was racking my brain to remember what inlet was missing - how could someone steal a hole? Actually the port winglet has been missing for a few weeks, and whilst the general handling is not affected, the port-side fuel burn has increased by 4%! No, not really, but that is the sort of comment I could expect. The upside is that Gatwick Airport has done unnecessary runway sweeps looking for a dropped winglet that was not there! I cannot understand how nobody amongst you experts has not commented on the picture of the chap walking through the wreckage in his suit, oblivious to any MMMF particles that may be suspended in the atmosphere.
I have said my piece, and am now returning to hopefully, a normal day's work at Gatwick.:)

[uberwang]

Andrasz, we get it, you are a racist... I have been flying in and out of Tripoli for years and its really not as bad as you paint it. Stick to facts, speculate about possible scenarios but leave out the attacks on the culture. And those pilots were flying Ilyushins etc around the place so the pilots were not all sitting on there butts at home waiting for sanctions to be lifted.

The only thing dumber than not going around when you should is a racist..

[JetRob]

According to newspapers,

There was one survivor, a 10 year old boy.

[Al Fakhem]

Not wanting to distract from the tragedy at the core of this thread, there appear to be contributors who seriously regard Libya as a "normal" country. I cannot imagine why anyone would book a flight on an airline that was personally inaugurated by the No. 2 madman in the world Muammar al-Gaddafi (the No. 1 spot is still held by Kim Jong Il). Add to this the comments by people with personal experience of Tripoli airport (see this thread), and the whole concept of Libyan aviation becomes a ridiculous matter.

[G-BHEN]

I've been refraining from posting on this forum so far about this, but I have to say:

Uberwang - you have hit the nail on the head. Over 100 people have lost their lives. Regardless of how the culture of Africa is, this is a terrible accident and now is not the time for attacks on another culture simply for the sake of it.

We must wait for the facts to come out.

[STC-8]

Eyewitness from a private air company 'Global Aviation' reports seeing plane plowing through trees, buildings & automobiles. Also he reports that visibility was extremely poor at the time of the crash.





'Vliegtuig ploegde door gebouwen heen' - Binnenland - Telegraaf.nl [24 uur actueel, ook mobiel] [binnenland] (http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/6709563/___Vliegtuig_ploegde_door_gebouwen_heen___.html?p=16,2)

'Vliegtuig ploegde door gebouwen heen'

TRIPOLI - Het vliegtuig uit Johannesburg dat woensdag in Libië kort voor de landing neerstortte, kwam ongeveer een kilometer voor de landingsbaan terecht. „Toen ploegde het door bomen, enkele gebouwen en een paar voertuigen heen”, vertelde ooggetuige Juan Wolmarans (36), een manager van de particuliere luchtvaartmaatschappij Global Aviation in Tripoli, die op een collega wachtte die in de Airbus A330 zat.






Dat berichtten Zuid-Afrikaanse media. „Het zicht was erg slecht”, aldus Wolmarans. „Toen ik op de plaats van het ongeluk kwam, was de staart van het vliegtuig het enige deel dat nog herkenbaar was. Wrakstukken en lichamen lagen verspreid over een gebied van 800 meter. Er was geen teken van leven. Het was gruwelijk.”

[marsipulami]

Was just looking at the AVHerald' picture of the tail section and noticed the stabilizer trimmed in the fully nose up position. Could it be moved into that position during the event or is it likely to indicate the position of the last moments of the flight?

[STC-8]

The tragic human element of the crash is quickly becoming apparent in the Dutch news as many people were on holiday so there were families, sisters, parents with children onboard. There are victims from the region where I'm living in, even from nearby locations 10-15 kms away. Horrific for their families, colleagues & friends!

[6000PIC]

Firstly , I doubt the integrity of Libyan officials investigating a Libyan air accident in Libya , even though foreigners were carried , to give the public timely and accurate information , even with Airbus and Dutch oversight . Therefore , I don`t think we`ll have many solid answers soon. I`m also sure someone at the Libyan transport ministry has since made a call to someone somewhere inquiring about the capital and installation cost of an ILS system for this airport. To fly an all night flight and then choose to land into the rising sun using a non precision approach at your " home base " is at least suspect , if not suspicious . Even if the minima was the same on 27 , the difference of not staring into a rising sun in reduced visibility is profound. RIP.

[deSitter]

C-SAR,

The only other cases of fragmentation to this extent without any fire damage that I can remember, are the Avianca 707 at New York, and the United DC-8 at Portland. There is supposed to be adequate fuel onboard for diversion but still, the margins are not extensive and a math error can still happen. Even though this flight takes place within African borders, it's a long flight, nearly 9 hours. That's also a long time in which to make errors in fuel management. But in any case the complete lack of soot is very telling.

-drl

[nugpot]

Andrasz, we get it, you are a racist...

The only thing dumber than not going around when you should is a racist..

uberwang ,
Sorry, I don't get it. What race are Libians?

I think that andrazs is very restrained in his commentary of Libian press freedom/press releases.

[Gretchenfrage]

PJ2 wrote:

At present, experienced, knowledgable members know that their contributions won't even be read or valued

You read what's been written already now, do you therefore consider your contribution just as 'not experienced and knowledgable', or do you consider yourself above all other contributors?

then you continue:

In the meantime, please don't consider the level of discussion here, especially the usual conspiracy and standard anti-Airbus agendas

Are you asking us to consider your level of discussion however?

finally you write:

I don't get the feeling that this outcome had anything to do with the airport, the navaids, ATC or the country the accident occurred in

This is legitimate. You contribute your actual oppinion, which with the momentary absence of facts is just that. But please let others contributors state their oppinion just as much without instantly belitteling them.

(By the way, in your last quote, did you deliberately leave out 'aircraft'? That might be considered anti-Airbus as well ....)

[onetrack]

A close examination of the 23 pictures on the following SA news site link shows very little evidence of charring on any of the debris. Even the tyres are unmarked. One has to conclude that a lack of motion lotion has to be high on the list of suspects, particularly in a near new Airbus with up-to-date terrain avoidance warning equipment. Even though the debris field is over 800 metres, one would expect some visible charring on a % of it, even with low fuel reserves.

A loud crash, then bodies everywhere: News24: South Africa (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/A-loud-crash-then-bodies-everywhere-20100512)

[Gringobr]

If it was missing a winglet, that would reduce furl consumption by at least 5% which could mean they ran out of fuel (lack of serious fire)

[sharksandwich]

sharksandwich,

You need to do a little research using some of the very good web databases before you talk about disproportionately large number of incidents involving the A330. All modern Boeing and Airbus products enjoy very low accident rates in comparison to their earlier stablemates. Just look at how many B737s were going down in their first 13 years of operation and you'll see that there is no comparison between them and the A330.

AS far as I am aware, no airliners crashed before 1909.
What did they do right that we are now getting wrong?

[hawker750]

Fuel thoughts
Tripoli has probably the cheapest fuel in the world especially for a local based airline, so I should imagine he would not be taking anything other than minimum fuel.
The route was probably up A403 and once past N'djamena the only runway before Tripoli is Sebha which from experience is probably not equipped to take a 330.
If I were an investgator I think I know where I would start

[kwateow]

Did any plane ever get critically low on fuel without the crew telling someone?

[Victor Juliet]

Fact: the one with a missing winglet is 5A-ONF, the one crashed is 5A-ONG.

[Lamyna Flo]

Did any plane ever get critically low on fuel without the crew telling someone?


What about Avianca Flight 52, in 1990? The crew did advise but I don't believe they declared an emergency and the aircraft went down Avianca Flight 52 - The Delays That Ended in Disaster - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/05/nyregion/avianca-flight-52-the-delays-that-ended-in-disaster.html) Avianca Flight 52 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_Flight_52). Not sure of any others; stand to be corrected.

[stressmerchant]

From Sharksandwich:
AS far as I am aware, no airliners crashed before 1909.
What did they do right that we are now getting wrong?
1909??

And I'm not sure what date you could put in there that would allow your post to make some form of sense. Ever since there have been airliners, there have been accidents.

[HotDog]

Gringober.

If it was missing a winglet, that would reduce furl consumption by at least 5% which could mean they ran out of fuel (lack of serious fire)

Where do you get this misinformation from? The fuel penalty for one missing winglet on the A330 is 1.2%. Was it sharksandwich per chance?

[BOAC]

Could all those widly 'stabbing in the dark' take time to read heli-mate post #158 - someone who knows what he/she is talking about (and is feeling the loss of friends and colleagues). There you will see the winglet was absent well before this flght, so fuel penalties should have been factored in, and they were in fact "4%".

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I worked at HLLT in the 60s and had the misfortune to be there when an airliner crashed. It was early morning, very quiet traffic-wise, weather good but some mist patches. Aircraft was on a fairly short flight with an experienced crew including a check-captain on the flight deck. A visual approach was made from some distance out but slant vis close-in caused a go-around. The pilot elected to make a visual circuit to the opposite end and crashed several miles short of the runway.

There was no problem with ATC or the airfield. There was no ILS but weather was usually good enough for visual approaches, which was the preferred approach for the majority of crews, whether based or not.

Many airfields around the world are not so well equipped as say JFK, CDG, Heathrow, etc., but they function quite normally with no problems, H24 365 days a year.

My thoughts are with the crew and pax who lost their lives and with the ATC staff who were on watch.

[omaaa]

Hi thanks for your comment, as a Libyan it is amazing to see how suddenly people are dying to have a go at Libya, what is it? why is it? yes we are a developing country, yes we have oil wealth? but every year the country is safer and better then the previous year, we can't be up to your British or any other standards overnight, there is millions being spent on the aviation and many other industries.

And the comments on Libyan Pilots sat at home waiting for sanctions to be lifted is simply untrue, Many Libyan Pilots left during the sanctions to Singapore, Qatar and many other middle eastern airliners who have returned also please note during the sanctions the 727s still operated domestic flights and many other Russian aircraft continued to fly around the country, given Libya's terrain flying is sometimes the only way from A to B. I have a few relatives who fly for the 3 main airlines in Libya, and happen to know captain Yusuf of flight 771.

Libyans are a hospitable people, who enjoy looking after expats and visitors, please show the same respect back for the people, who are doing their best to change the view of their homeland, the normal men and women on the street who don't deserve such a reputation.

[forget]

There you will see the winglet was absent well before this flght, so fuel penalties should have been factored in, and they were in fact "4%".

Where does this number come from? See manufacturers figures here.

http://www.pprune.org/5682784-post20.html

[Capetonian]

I cannot imagine why anyone would book a flight on an airline that was personally inaugurated by the No. 2 madman in the world Muammar al-Gaddafi
... because it's cheap, which is a major motivation for many people (look at the success of Ryanair for proof of that) and because it had reasonably good reputation.

(the No. 1 spot is still held by Kim Jong Il)
I disagree, Robert Mugabe would be my vote for No. 1.

I have been to Libya, enjoyed outstanding kindness and hospitality on both a business and professional level, and whilst criticism of some aspects of their society and international politics may well be justifiable, this is not the place for it.

[PBL]

Young man, be careful of your tongue.

I have known PJ2 professionally for a decade on safety issues. There is nobody in the world more experienced in A330 line operations, in A330 systems and in flight operations quality assurance than he is, although there are likely many as experienced.

Readers of this forum have complained, with justification, about the low quality of discussion. They should be grateful, as I am grateful, that PJ2 has the patience and equanimity to deal with it and still contribute. I don't know how he does it.

PBL

[SLFguy]

Well said PBL - I've always seen PJ2 as the yang to Rainboe's ying..:}


Where is Rainboe by the way?

[alexmcfire]

I don´t agree on the point that Libya improve year by year, it´s still difficult country to travel to. A group of Swedish overland traveller got stuck this spring in the nomansland between Tunisia and Libya despite having visa.
Anyway, back on topic, wheres the older generation of ATC educated?
USSR?

[deSitter]

I would be interested in knowing from experienced pilots - how difficult is flying a sidestick aircraft under non-optimal conditions including possibly non-powered flight? Do you have positive feel for the beast?

-drl

[omaaa]

Hi Alex thanks for your reply,

yes ofcourse its a million years away from being up to standard, but I remember a time in libya when one couldn't travel from city to city without papers, and new airbus' or foreigners using tripoli as a hub was unthinkable,

I hope to god, the good that comes out of this, is a serious shock to the system to those who pull the strings, and they can address such issues now rather then the 'tomorrow' approach.

Serious questions need to be asked here.

[HotDog]

forget, the aleged fuel penalty of 4% comes from BOAC, quoting a post from heli-mate, which I suspect has been mis-understood.

Actually the port winglet has been missing for a few weeks, and whilst the general handling is not affected, the port-side fuel burn has increased by 4%! No, not really, but that is the sort of comment I could expect..

The A330 CDL, as quoted by yourself, shows a fuel penalty amongst other operational limitations; of 1.2%

[MATELO]

I don´t agree on the point that Libya improve year by year, it´s still difficult country to travel to. A group of Swedish overland traveller got stuck this spring in the nomansland between Tunisia and Libya despite having visa.


I know this is off topic, but, seriously, what were they expecting in the desert between Tunisia and Libya??

[gtro]

Been following this thread since it started yesterday. I figure some of the contributors are currently working for Afriqiyah Airlines or within the industry in Tripoli. Would be interesting to hear from them what are the news that are going around about the incident. It was 6am and I am pretty sure many have seen the A/C approaching.

[C-SAR]

As the sign on the left says, I am a new guy here, I am not rated on Airbus but I am an accident investigator that has been around a number of sites like this one.

Could we have some of the participants trying to have a look at the event (I leave all the rumblings about Libya, Africa, first, second third words etc. to those not interested in trying to prevent reoccurrence)

Areas for discussion:

Influence of external factors (nav aids, weather) in the decision making process inside the cockpit

Influence of flight factors (crew composition [somebody said 1 Captn + 2 FO: source?], crew rest after previous flight; lenght of flight; fuel usage; fuel uplifted at departure, etc.

Training factors ( when was last time the crew flew NPA for runway 09; are NPA part of simulator;)

etc. etc. etc.

[Lemurian]

PJ2 wrote :I don't get the feeling that this outcome had anything to do with the airport, the navaids, ATC or the country the accident occurred in.
I share the same feeling.
There are a few aspects of that accident that have been missed : some posters have, correctly, pointed at the sunrise-lit mist which would reduce the actual visibility to a much lower value than stated in the METARS... Fine, but there is a lurking potential killer in that statement : until one gets into the mist - i.e at a low height - against the sunrise, the visibility would be, at altitude quite a lot higher than broadcast, tricking the crew either into a visual approach and/or a false sense of safety (We see the runway / the airport from 50 miles...). The sudden transition from unlimited vis to what amounts to a white-out could be astonishingly disturbing (own experience at Dhaka, Bangladesh in the same conditions).
Another aspect of that accident is the number of roads, close to the airport with an easterly direction and which could be mistaken, again in a limited visibility situation with a runway.
My last comment would be about the type of procedure they were following : Someone had posted that the Lybian DGCA hadn't given their authorisation to the "managed NPA". Fair enough. That means that they flew either a "selected" approach or a "normal"/ raw data locator let-down (this time, possibly on manual)...or they were on a visual final (also on manual)...

[Evanelpus]

The upside is that Gatwick Airport has done unnecessary runway sweeps looking for a dropped winglet that was not there!

Does the airline know where it is then?

[BOAC]

Well, not really from me, HD, but I think I see what you are saying. Actually the port winglet has been missing for a few weeks, and whilst the general handling is not affected, the port-side fuel burn has increased by 4%! No, not really, but that is the sort of comment I could expect. - as if there is not enough muddle on this thread. Where does that leave the rest of the line? If the winglet was not 'missing' before departure, why was LGW sweeping for it? All very confusing.

Anyone clarify?.

[702 squadron]

CWT almost empty, bad insulation of fuel probe wiring. Pitch change at final caused spark just above fuel. Vapour just between upper and lower explosion limits. Production fault.

[Three Mile Final]

My thread in Tech Log was started on 4th May and asked about the performance of an A330 with a winglet missing. I could see it outside my office window at Gatwick.

The thread is here http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/414204-330-winglet-1-side-only.html.

I said I had seen it arrive with only one winglet and other posters and photos on Airliners.net confirmed it had been missing for a good couple of months, since a taxiing "mishap" at Benghazi.

As far as I am aware it was 5A-ONF with the missing winglet and was 5A-ONG that crashed.

:ugh:

[Gauteng Pilot]

Correct 5A-ONF has the missing winglet and 5A-ONG crashed

[almalhoufe]

This is for the guy who wrote this:

Experienced crews initially were all hired expats. Libyan pilots did not fly for decades during embargo and most of them did not get tested, got their way paid through their type ratings which they after failing multiple times barely made. Now they think they can fly but see what happens in a little reduced visibility

first i'd like to tell you that the airbus solved such problem by the SOP.

Second point the whole 3 pilots were on board are well qualified and had their A330 CCQ by AIRBUS Industry in TOULOUS/ FRANCE and has been released by AIRBUS TRI/TRE.

third i like to say the following:
all of you supposed to know that 73% of the aircraft accidents were caused by human errors, regardless of the knowledge, the experience, the nationality,......etc

who can guarantee that the cause of the accident was a pilot error?

let's wait for the DFDR analysis then comment.

note:
ATC confirms using the RADAR that the A/C didn't fly below MDA.

[cpdlcads]

anybody know if sunil w or ed w on board

[Lemurian]

Almalhoufe :ATC confirms using the RADAR that the A/C didn't fly below MDA.
That's a very strange statement,
inaccurate if they approached on 27, then crashed on an overshoot,
wrong if they approached on 09 as they'd have impacted before the runway threshold.
So what can you tell us that you are withholding ?

[obiwan78]

Never seen a so stupid Post:sad:

My comment was for cpd......

[obiwan78]

Has anybody charts (links) for landing at TIP ?
Any information for VOR/NDB approach ?
Is there a difference between 09 and 27 runway ? I think about VOR/NDB 09 and ILS on the 27 !

Thanks

[AndoniP]

CWT almost empty, bad insulation of fuel probe wiring. Pitch change at final caused spark just above fuel. Vapour just between upper and lower explosion limits. Production fault.

Wow, the LTSB works pretty fast :}

[lomapaseo]

A memorable quote from PJ2

Most in between know nothing and aren't shy about proving it.


I do agree that there is a poor signal to noise ratio in the early posts following any accident. I keep looking for actual links in posts from established news media to support some supposition or questioning. Simply citing ancedotal experience or gut feelings as facts does nothing for a discussion in this section (now in Jet Blast that's the place to discuss :)

I have no idea what evidence some posters are using to support what may be valid suppositions or areas of investigative interest Perhaps in the sense of Rumors or News an actual specific link might help.

So far I have only seen random badly broken up wreckage with little sign of pool fire.

Occam razor Posibilities for that observation alone might be a flat impact through trees with the fuel tanks somewhere other in the debris pictures than shown todate.

Need more descriptive photos including the engine inlets

[C-SAR]

I have the plates for Rwy 09 on jpeg but don't know how to insert them here.... suggestions please!

Thanks!

[obiwan78]

You have just to make:

Eighter

<a href="name of the Url"> Your comment </a>
or
<img src="name of the Url" alt ="">

Regards

[wheelbrace]

try this one - old and maybe not all the approaches, but useful nonetheless...

http://www.filedump.net/dumped/hllt1238362365.pdf

[learner001]

http://www.filedump.net/dumped/hllt1238362365.pdf

Kind regards, learner...;)

[billteasdale]

One of the things I don't see emphasized (forgive me if I missed a post that did) is that, no matter how good or bad ATC, Navaids, Wx conditions, or any other external factors may be, it is the pilot/crew's responsibility to know their aircraft and it's capabilities, and to stay within those capabilities, and to stay within their own personal "envelope" of experience and training.

At first blush, this tragedy seems to be caused by the crew going outside of their envelopes... whether by a corporate culture that allows unqualified crews to operate their aircraft, or by an attitude of TIA (This Is Africa), or any other breach of good sense operational standards.

To add to some that others have said... to say that Africa has to adhere to ICAO standards, is fairly naive. The airspace in any country is owned and administered by that country. If they don't meet ICAO standards (this describes most African countries in one way or another) don't be surprised. Most African governments do things their own way, with little regard to anyone else's opinions or "rules".

As someone with a good bit of Africa flying experience, the presence of ATC, in most situations, is a detriment, rather than an enhancement, of safety... and I long for the "good old days" when aircraft talked to one another on a common traffic advisory frequency, and you were rarely in range of a tower with a "controller" in it!

All of that being said, the TIA factor suggests that this won't change anytime soon, and raises a flag to warn that Afriqiyah should be avoided at all costs in your travel plans.

[obiwan78]

For your pdf:ok:

[JG1]

This aircraft had a bad birdstrike through an engine not too long ago, registering max vib, apparently recommended inspection procedures were not followed afterwards.

The crew did indicate a problem before landing. If as reported the aircraft 'exploded' in the air, a possibility is a catastrophic engine separation causing explosion.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

billteasdale

To add to some that others have said... to say that Africa has to adhere to ICAO standards, is fairly naive. The airspace in any country is owned and administered by that country. If they don't meet ICAO standards (this describes most African countries in one way or another) don't be surprised. Most African governments do things their own way, with little regard to anyone else's opinions or "rules".

As someone with a good bit of Africa flying experience, the presence of ATC, in most situations, is a detriment, rather than an enhancement, of safety... and I long for the "good old days" when aircraft talked to one another on a common traffic advisory frequency, and you were rarely in range of a tower with a "controller" in it!

This is not consistant with the above quote

All of that being said, the TIA factor suggests that this won't change anytime soon, and raises a flag to warn that Afriqiyah should be avoided at all costs in your travel plans.

So I correct you

All of that being said, the TIA factor suggests that this won't change anytime soon, and raises a flag to warn that Africa should be avoided at all costs in your travel plans.

IMHO it's unfair.

[A330first-officer]

Airbus sent to all types operators an urgent advisory regarding the STALL RECOVERY PROCEDURE:

"purpose:

Recent industry events have drawn attention to the importance of appropriate pilot reaction in the case of stall."

This part is followed by flight ops recommendations and training advices..... it may be a clue.
what do you think?

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

IMHO it's unfair.

Tell the families of the deceased.

[swedflyer]

obiwan78 (I'm new here)

#200; Never seen a so stupid Post

#201; Has anybody charts (links) for landing at TIP ?

Being new doesn't mean that you have to be ignorant and behaving like a donkey.

What one think is a stupid post can be important to someone else. Asking WHO worked on board could maybe have qualified for a comment.

If you had read the thread you participate in from the beginning, the link for the charts was already at page 3 (#53).

OnT:
Both N'Djamena and Sebha can accommodate a 330.

The investigation team from Airbus is already on location.

[PJ2]

A330first-officer;
Airbus sent to all types operators an urgent advisory regarding the STALL RECOVERY PROCEDURE:
Was this just issued post-accident and would you have wording or a source of this info? Thanks.

PJ2

[A330first-officer]

I have a copy of the message and it's been sent worldwide few hours after the incident.
Of course it's related to this incident!

[henra]

@sharksandwich (Post #133):
Sorry but the A330 being an unsafe Airplane compared to other planes like the B737 is definitely nonsense.

If you take the number of hull losses and set in relation to the Number of Planes in Service or accumulated Flighthours you would find that it is indeed a very safe Airliner.
I recommend reading for Example Aviation-Safety.net or similar pages before posting such unsubstantiated things !

[wileydog3]

I've read this entire thread and am still vexed.

Winds are light and variable.
The runway is 3600 meters (11,800ft) long
9 has an NDB
27 has an ILS
it is early morning and an non-precision approach has you looking into the sun.

SO, why does this crew elect to conduct a non-precision approach into the sun and not opt for an ILS facing away from the sun?

[G-FULL]

Today's (HLLT) Tripoli charts;

http://www.filedump.net/dumped/hllt1273763935.pdf

[Slickster]

Airbus sent to all types operators an urgent advisory regarding the STALL RECOVERY PROCEDURE:

Sorry, being a bit of a thick Boeing guy here, but I thought you couldn't stall the more modern Airbus aircraft? Isn't that the whole point of them?

[PJ2]

A330first-officer;
Of course it's related to this incident!
My apologies if I upset you with this question, but I ask for your patience and indulgence: You ask in your initial post, "what do you think?" and before responding, even if it may be obvious to some, one must ensure that the information one is commenting upon is current and relevant to this accident.

Some of us do not have access to Airbus Bulletins so when you can, could you post or copy/paste the wording please? Thanks.

Slickster;

Re not being able to stall the aircraft, yes, that's correct and that's precisely the reason that more information is required regarding the statement that Airbus has issued a "stall recovery" bulletin, before taking this line of thought any further. If that is the case, there is much to confirm that is not yet known; if it is not the case and this is an old bulletin as suggested in the post by V1...Ooops below, then the post by A330first-officer claiming that issuance of such bulletin has "...been sent worldwide few hours after the incident" needs to be corrected.

PJ2

[V1... Ooops]

...Airbus sent to all types operators an urgent advisory regarding the STALL RECOVERY PROCEDURE...

No, that would have nothing to do with this accident at all. That advisory from Airbus (just like the identical advisories that every other aircraft manufacturer in the world has been requested to put out this year) is a consequence of the findings in the accident report for the Dash 8 that crashed in Buffalo, New York - the crew did not recognize a stall, and they pulled rather than pushed.

One of the recommendations in the NTSB report was that aircraft manufacturers restate procedures for Abnormal Airspeed (Stall) Recovery.

...I have a copy of the message and it's been sent worldwide few hours after the incident. Of course it's related to this incident!...

No, I suspect it is just co-incidence. I work for an aircraft manufacturer, I just finished writing up a similar advisory for an aircraft that we hold the type certificate for. Trust me, it has to do with complying with the findings of that Colgan accident report.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<ATC confirms using the RADAR that the A/C didn't fly below MDA.>>

A curious statement.. So how did it reach the ground?

[FiveGirlKit]

Hmmmm, not sure. There will be no evidence that this aircraft stalled at this time (it will take some time to download the FDR and analyse the data), and as I have said before, where is the fuselage? A stalled aircraft on approach looks like this Crash B-737-800 Turkish Airlines, Schiphol Amsterdam killing 3 crew, 2 Turkish and 4 American passengers | INTERNATIONAL AVIATION NEWS (http://www.aviationnews.eu/2009/02/27/crash-b-737-800-turkish-airlines-schiphol-amsterdam-kills-at-least-9/) , big lumps of aircraft remain.

In this case the airframe has been shredded - why? :confused:

[vovachan]

The crew did indicate a problem before landing. If as reported the aircraft 'exploded' in the air, a possibility is a catastrophic engine separation causing explosion.

How likely is an engine to blow during a landing?

[Double the Drift]

Technically no, cannot be stalled in normal law: when speed decreases to Alpha Prot TOGA will be applied (regardless of whether autothrust is engaged) and it becomes increasingly difficult to apply manual nose up pitch. When ALPHA MAX speed is reached it becomes impossible to manually increase pitch beyond the point at which that speed is maintained. If manual input is removed, the aircraft will lower the nose to increase the speed back above ALPHA PROT.

Blocked pitots or similar could lead to an unreliable airspeed situation where the aircraft will react to a perceived overspeed by raising the nose to the point where the stall is approached, normal law will then revert to Alternate law when the discrepancy is picked up, at which point the stall is of course possible.

[forget]

There's a Cathay A-330 Flight Crew Training Manual below - revised up to 2006. Stall Recovery is in there. Do a pdf search on 'stall'. PS. It's 8 Megs.

http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdfs/plane/airbus/A340/misc/A330-A340_Flight_Crew_Training_Manual.pdf

[A330AV8R]

@ juventus08 " I'm a Boeing flyer with some knowledge on Airbus; can an A330 stall in normal law? "

NO it cannot .

[FlyingCroc]

The one thing I don't understand here. Why did they fly the NDB09 instead of the :eek: ILS27?

[filejw]

Even better why not ILS's to more than one R/W..with all that cash .....

[iflytb20]

Boeing guy here, hence speculating a bit :

Could it be a repeat of the CAL A300 (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19980216-0) crash in Taipei?? Or will the FBW system of the A330 prevent such a thing from happening???

[Slickster]

The one thing I don't understand here. Why did they fly the NDB09 instead of the ILS27?

That's what I find a bit odd. Generally, we do as we're told by ATC, but flying in that neck of the woods, the ATIS is fairly irrelevant to what runway you land on.

Don't ask, don't get, but then they were locals.......

[aiming point]

Like as in the current AA at JFK incident and thread. Like as happens many times at many airports around the world. Runway "choice".....mmmmm

[la2uk]

BOAC, all I can add to your query is what I know about 8U operations.
They operate the A330 on the TIP/JNB sector and then use the A320 fleet to feed from / to EU airports. Occasionally, the A330 will also fly the TIP/LGW sector, maybe twice per week, as scheduled. I was 'lucky' enough to be aboard ONG on a return flight from TIP to LGW a few weeks ago.

I can only guess, but I suspect what was meant was that the aircraft had left LGW, en-route to TIP, then went to JNB before it's fatal return to TIP.

[Gaston]

Theoretically no, but in the same way a vertical stabiliser can be overloaded a FBW airbus in Normal Law can be stalled.

[BOAC]

The one thing I don't understand here. Why did they fly the NDB09 instead of the http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif ILS27? - we will find out, no doubt. Post #13 says 09 'in use'. Just maybe (no facts!!) ILS U/S or 'Unreliable' or 'On Maintenance', PE NDB maybe U/S - who knows?

[macdo]

Re. can you stall an Airbus. Well, I just came back from my LPC/OPC which went OK so we had a couple of minutes to play. So, question came, would you like to see the A320 spin? Well, why not. So, on 1 engine at 10000' up pitched the nose, a substantial, but not excessive opposite rudder was fed in, and WHEHEYYY, over it went into a classic and quite violent spin. Standard Recovery made by about 4000'. Hold on,said I, that couldn't happen on 2 engines. Back again we went on both donkeys, Normal Law, again pitch up, adverse yaw and over we go again. Moral from the TRE, don't play with the rudder when airborne!! Flight protection laws are only there in pitch and roll, if you mess with the rudder you ain't going to be safe. Bear in mind this was a Sim, so if the a/c could survive these manouvres is another question.
I have no doubt that this has no bearing on this accident, and I offer my sympathies to the victims and their families.

[Farrell]

Theoretically no, but in the same way a vertical stabiliser can be overloaded a FBW airbus in Normal Law can be stalled.

Thank you Gaston.

The Airbus protection systems are still, in some cases, wildly misunderstood by users and non-users alike.

[Masai]

If half the money that was wasted on the Ash Fiasco was spent on eliminating non-precision approaches many lives would be saved.:ugh:

[heli - mate]

Sorry for the confusion earlier re the winglet - 5AONF, as stated correctly, has been flying without the port winglet for some time, not ONG. When I first read these threads yesterday I did not know the reg and just accepted what the earlier comment had stated. With the shift patterns of the Airfield Ops team, over several days each new shift thought it was a new occurrence, hence the frequent runway inspection looking for a bit that was still in TIP. Our schedule is for 5 times weekly visits by the A330, and 2 days for the A320. But this IS subject to change at shortish notice as traffic loads dictate. Normal routing is for LGW-TIP-JNB (Mon/Fri)but yesterday the flight was already planned for A320 due to low load expected outbound. The airline is an IATA member and fully compliant. The aircraft is subject to frequent full CAA/SRG and DfT inspections on arrival at LGW. There have been no reportable items from these parties, only things that could be instantly remedied by the operating crew at the time. The A330 takes no fuel at LGW but round-trips from TIP where it is virtually free. Why have an aircraft with 11 hrs-ish duration for seven hours total flying, plus reserves/div fuel; this still leaves payload to spare as the config is only J30/M200. Oh, and I did supervise the loading when as newly-registered aircraft it was still manual loadsheets, and not on the computer system. And Libya is nowhere near the Mahgreb.

[SortieIII]

The Airbus protection systems are still, in some cases, wildly misunderstood by users and non-users alike.

Whose fault is that? Surely the manufacturer should make sure that their 'perfect' product is understood by all involved?

[Lemurian]

PJ2, quoting A330first-officer;
Quote:
Airbus sent to all types operators an urgent advisory regarding the STALL RECOVERY PROCEDURE:
Was this just issued post-accident and would you have wording or a source of this info? Thanks.

PJ2
answer : I have a copy of the message and it's been sent worldwide few hours after the incident.
Of course it's related to this incident!

Utter rubbish. A notice to all pilots had been issued at AF on the 30th April and this deals with modifying the stall recovery procedures, in agreement with Boeing after the analysis of recent accidents like the ColganAir DHC-8 at Buffalo or older ones like the AirbornExpress DC-8 in 1996.
Although, IMO, huge news in terms of our piloting habits, this revised technique, for the time being has absolutely nothing in common with this accident.

[rgbrock1]

I did some research on the premise, posted earlier, of no airliner accidents before 1909.

The reason why there doesn't appear to be any before 1909 was due to the fact that airliner accident records were not written before then.

[Machaca]

rgbrock -- fits in nicely with the fact first ever pax were taken up by the Wrights in the latter part of 1908.

[LD50]

I know nothing about flying jet aeroplanes, so this is just for general interest. On the 17:00Z Euronews bulletin there was a comment pointing out that this crash involved the same aircraft type as Air France A447. Is it acceptable for the MSM to try to trash the safety record of a type without any relevant data? Can one complain to someone about malicious and ignorant news comments? Just asking...

[togathrust]

Just had a look at the VOR D 09 approach chart and trying to consider any possible simple but catastrophic mistake. At 10 DME and 2000' commence a 3 degree decent. Impact approx 2 miles short of the runway. Just a thought.

[takata]

Just an observation, and I do understand that impact forces probably wreaked havoc with the bits, but is the fin pointing away from the runway (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/05/12/article-1277742-09896F44000005DC-474_634x383.jpg)? The building looks similar to one about 950m from the 09 threshold.
Winds from the west: is it known that the 330 was approaching 09, or is that still assumption?
It seems a correct observation. The vertical stab is pointing to the west, while most of the debris field is also behind it, and parts of the wings seems encastred into airfield's wire fence. Consequently, it is like the whole tail fliped over head (see damages on the vertical stab's tip) and felt down in that position but in opposite direction from the runaway.
S~
Olivier

[Slingblade]

A short tribute to my immensely talented and wonderful cousin, Bree, who died in the Afriqiyah crash this week. In your short life you wore many hats, and one was as stewardess. We had so many laughs about your time as a "trolley dolly" in the Middle East Bree and I will treasure your hilarious accounts forever. Our lives will be a darker place with your passing. Love Cuz M.

[PJ2]

Farrell;

Quote:
Theoretically no, but in the same way a vertical stabiliser can be overloaded a FBW airbus in Normal Law can be stalled.
Thank you Gaston.

The Airbus protection systems are still, in some cases, wildly misunderstood by users and non-users alike.
Caution, I think there are two meanings of "stall" at work here.

The second meaning, referencing the horizontal stab, usually means that the hydraulic motor driving the screw-jack that changes the position of the horizontal stabilizer is stalled. When this happens it is usually through very high air loads; it has nothing directly to do with the first meaning of the word, "stall" which means loss of lift due to high angle of attack.

Indirectly, a stabilizer trimmed all the way to its max Nose UP [NU] position through whatever system fault or pilot input etc, can cause (and has caused) a stall, given other things being equal such as normal CofG, control authority of the elevators, applied level of engine thrust with under-slung engines, etc.

In Normal Law the A320/A330/A340/A380 series cannot normally be stalled. But with sufficient abuse of the controls, (as used here that word is a technical term and is not intended as a criticism of the recent post describing this - I thought that was a helpful post in raising this point), an airplane is just a brick when the air isn't flowing around it happily and will fall out of the sky, "normal laws" notwithstanding.

The airplane and the design obviously aren't miracle-workers which defy either logic or natural laws such as gravity, mass and inertia but once in a while this needs re-stating; they are commercial airplanes and such designs are always...always compromises. In other words, try to do a Lomcovák-type maneuver, (you can't...too much mass, not enough control authority and no big recips to "help"!, but the point is made...), and no "Normal Law" will protect the airplane.

That is where much of the confusion (and bias against) regarding the design emerges.

Lemurian, thanks; I certainly suspected that that was the case, but if someone has a handle called "A330first-officer" one expects that poster knows his stuff and posts with knowledge that has been confirmed first.

PJ2

[Vc10Tail]

Hi guys, as informative as all this can be...the ashes haven't even settled and speculation is rife and already fingering the crew, and airport authorities....not very civil is it?I detect some anti-Libyan sentiment too.Leave the politics and your opinions for now.Let the professional investigation give us more concrete details before we can proceed with any learning in the after math.That Air France 330 unfortunate catapulting from the skies after screwing through the ITCZ was not met with so much affrontage...because the pilots wer perhaps European-home of Airbus?

Am sure no pilot leaves their family to go advertently go and kill people and destroy valuable equipment...and to may be make fools of themselves on pprune...the 'OFFICIAL' judge and jury of air disasters shall we say?

Come on fellas...demonstrate some decensy and respect...they are your fellow aviators...and believe it or not...should the **** hit the fan on YOU...pprune will only be too glad to make a satire out of you...let your conscience respond to that!Be good folks!