PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Airlines, Airports & Routes (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes-85/)
-   -   Ryanair-10 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/599821-ryanair-10-a.html)

Harry Wayfarers 7th Oct 2017 08:15


How do you handle a disgruntled pilot? They really should be identified, removed from their position and offered appropriate help.
You'd need to catch them first as they make their way to Norway :)

RAT 5 7th Oct 2017 08:48

A friend of main, ex-RYR, told me of an earlier F/O colleague who gained their command. They are now a B7878 captain in China on U$25,000pm and loving it. All paid up expenses and a commuting roster. 10 years on, roll up your mat , find a part-time flying job and enjoy the sunset somewhere nice & warm before you are 50.

fatmanmedia 7th Oct 2017 13:49

Ryanair 'run like a communist regime', says pilot - BBC News

eu01 7th Oct 2017 15:22

Well, the European communism had been largely ineffective. The "early capitalistic" term would be more appropriate here.

Sober Lark 7th Oct 2017 17:29

Harry, do you think Norway really wants persons who are addicted to unhappiness?

When it comes to aviation matters I'm afraid the UK media are very parochial and biased. Monarch, loses so much money it is forced to close down disrupting many hundreds of thousands of passengers yet they get the stiff upper lip treatment with absurd headlines comparing the fiasco to the nobility of the Dunkirk rescue. Oh, come on!

racedo 7th Oct 2017 18:41


Originally Posted by Harry Wayfarers (Post 9916819)
There are times when O'Leary needs to keep his mouth shut, take an extended holiday or whatever, and leave it to his senior management to sort out the mess that he has created ... But he simply can't do it!

Er what mass he created ?

He not in charge of rosters which is where it has started............

racedo 7th Oct 2017 18:47


Originally Posted by Sober Lark (Post 9917542)
Harry, do you think Norway really wants persons who are addicted to unhappiness?
!

Norwegian have got to start generating lots of cash.................... they know it as well.

DublinPole 7th Oct 2017 19:13

Something odd.

The last day or two I've noticed sponsored paid for ad placements on Social Media linking directly to articles claiming that there is to be a strike or a mass walk out by cabin crew and a few other things.

Some of these advertisers would include established media outlets who are essentially linking to their own articles detailing the same, I cannot imagine why a media outlet would want to pay money to promote a negative article about Ryanair in this way.

Is it possible that there are other parties behind this or do any media outlets have any shareholding or other interests in the airline industry in the UK and Ireland?

Harry Wayfarers 7th Oct 2017 20:03


Originally Posted by racedo (Post 9917604)
Er what mass he created ?

He not in charge of rosters which is where it has started............

From my past experience, and from what I have been reading he has p1ssed so many staff off demanding that they pay for uniforms, training etc. etc. etc., I mean Mr Ryan sent him to Air Southwest to see how they do it and he returned to pretty much change the way the industry did things.

I've read that RYR, O'Leary, were given two years notice to change their accumalative hours dates and they left it, and left it, and left it, until it was too late to do it over a reasonable transitional period ... Did MOL not know about that and kick ass before now or, as an accountant, was he too pre-occupied counting the billions going in to the company bank account?

And why are so many pilots leaving ... Is the bloke in charge of Operations responsible for that also, was he the one that reduced their terms and conditions to diddly squat whilst utilising them on illegal self-employed contracts?

And as a P.S. I worked for the guy who invented the low cost airline!

RAT 5 7th Oct 2017 22:25

My Dad had in his office a big sign that read:

"Remember. things always go wrong from the top not the bottom."

Who's at the top? Question answered. That's where the buck stops. Glory & rewards come with responsibility.

vikingivesterled 7th Oct 2017 23:21

How can you plan a whole years worth of hollidays and flying limits if your long term schedules are 6 months out and your short terms like rostering are only a few weeks.
When one grows up as an airline one have to give up a litle of flexibility for stability and predictability. Have at least a scenario schedule for a full year out to work from. Something that shouldn't be to difficult since for the first one knows how many airccraft will be at one's disposal, secondly one can predict approximately how many crew based on current levels, average recruiting and training combined with how many is historically leaving. Now if one has a computerised system, and is using its portential, one can create full year worst and best case roster scenarios, see where there is slack and offer leave booking opportunities accordingly. This results in a minimum flyable schedule. Then later add flights to that if recruiting goes better than hoped or less crew leave.
If one is a low fares airline it is after all easy to seat sale additional capacity. And cheaper than to re-accommodate, and compensate to the letter of the law, passengers on cancelled flights. And to a positive reception in the markets rather than negative headlines.

Harry Wayfarers 8th Oct 2017 01:00

I read somewhere that RYR have 404 aircraft and 4,100 pilots, i.e. 2050 flight crews, that's only 5.07 crews per aircraft which doesn't sound very many, in my day an industry standard was around 6 or 7 crews per aircraft.

If each crew is entitled to one month's annual leave then there should invariably be 170 crews on leave at any one time and should they not be taking their leave then leave be allocated to them, so, on the line, 2,050 crews has been reduced to 1,880 crews so we're down to 4.65 line crews per aircraft ... It gets worse!

Then, as each season's schedule is published they can realise how many duties there are per week per aircraft, i.e. if it takes 3 crews per day to operate an aircraft then that is 21 duties per week, divide it by 5 (duty days per week) and it shall take 4.2 line crews to operate that aircraft and this doesn't take in to account other duty days for crew training or similar.

As a double check they can realise how many block hours are scheduled per season, even if the there is no thereafter season yet published they know their business model and can ballpark a figure of block hours, and then divide that figure by the 900 hours per crew per year, perhaps add a 5% for luck and now they have realised, double checked, how many crews they need.

Then, should crews be directly employed, then they be contracted to a three months notice period, an industry standard, so in the event that they quit Human Resources and Flight Operations have three months to recruit and train required replacement crews.

But ... in my past experience CEO's, Commercial Departments etc. strongest suit isn't listening when it comes to spending money, whatever number of crews they may be told they need to employ they have a habit of reducing it whilst expecting more and more blood out of the same old stone.

But RYR's business model seems flawed, from the figures I've read it seems they didn't have enough crews in the first place, that many of their crews are self-employed contractors so they can walk out without even tendering any resignation whilst RYR seem more interested in putting billions away in a bank than reinvesting, particularly in staff moral.

Andy_S 8th Oct 2017 10:05


Originally Posted by Harry Wayfarers (Post 9917853)
But RYR's business model seems flawed, from the figures I've read it seems they didn't have enough crews in the first place, that many of their crews are self-employed contractors so they can walk out without even tendering any resignation whilst RYR seem more interested in putting billions away in a bank than reinvesting, particularly in staff moral.

Careful Harry. You're setting yourself up for some serious incoming........:E

vikingivesterled 8th Oct 2017 10:43

The ballpark numbers of set of crews per aircraft just becomes more difficult to operate when you run fewer aircraft in winter season than in summer, then increase the summer season. In addition you increase the fleet in batches, but at different numbers from year to year. Besides even 5.2 sets of crews per aircraft sounds massive for an airline that started out with 4. And unnervingly close to the then short-haul industry standard of 6.

There is no need for such ballpark figures when you have an automated system that can give you "real" cover, and targets for recruiting, far into the future. No exec will ignore a forecast of weekly numbers put in front of him/her, telling that at such and such time the schedule won't work. Many of them are after all accountants and used to exact numbers and balances or at least weigthed guideances, rather than statistical approximates and rules of thumb.

canberra97 8th Oct 2017 13:20


Originally Posted by Harry Wayfarers (Post 9917668)
From my past experience, and from what I have been reading he has p1ssed so many staff off demanding that they pay for uniforms, training etc. etc. etc., I mean Mr Ryan sent him to Air Southwest to see how they do it and he returned to pretty much change the way the industry did things.

I've read that RYR, O'Leary, were given two years notice to change their accumalative hours dates and they left it, and left it, and left it, until it was too late to do it over a reasonable transitional period ... Did MOL not know about that and kick ass before now or, as an accountant, was he too pre-occupied counting the billions going in to the company bank account?

And why are so many pilots leaving ... Is the bloke in charge of Operations responsible for that also, was he the one that reduced their terms and conditions to diddly squat whilst utilising them on illegal self-employed contracts?

And as a P.S. I worked for the guy who invented the low cost airline!

It was the Dallas, Texas based Southwest Airlines not Air Southwest which as you know was a UK regional airline based in Plymouth until it was taken over by Eastern Airways.

Ryanair don't 'demand' that staff pay for their training or uniform it clearly states in their contracts that they have to, saying they 'demand' is a bit over the top.

But regardless of those two comments I generally agree with most of what you have posted.

But you can't really compare Laker to Ryanair!

Harry Wayfarers 8th Oct 2017 17:27


Originally Posted by vikingivesterled (Post 9918130)
The ballpark numbers of set of crews per aircraft just becomes more difficult to operate when you run fewer aircraft in winter season than in summer, then increase the summer season. In addition you increase the fleet in batches, but at different numbers from year to year. Besides even 5.2 sets of crews per aircraft sounds massive for an airline that started out with 4. And unnervingly close to the then short-haul industry standard of 6.

There is no need for such ballpark figures when you have an automated system that can give you "real" cover, and targets for recruiting, far into the future. No exec will ignore a forecast of weekly numbers put in front of him/her, telling that at such and such time the schedule won't work. Many of them are after all accountants and used to exact numbers and balances or at least weigthed guideances, rather than statistical approximates and rules of thumb.

But if, as an average, they can only operate some 17.5 block hours weekly then that is only perhaps three days flying duties so fly them four days per week in the summer and only two days per week in the winter whilst scheduling any ground training classroom duties for the winter, RYR will still be getting their 900 hours per 12 months out of the poor souls.

RYR's accumalative year was April till March but were given two years notice to change it to January till December, now to move three months in one move would have been a significant headache to continuously check and cross-check that crews weren't busting 900 hours.

What I would have done would be ask the authority if during year one we can move to March until February, then the next year move to February to January and by the time year three came along we could move just one month again to the required January until December and I'm confident that any reasonable authority would have agreed to that.

It appears RYR management sat with their fingers up their butts when they would have had every opportunity to use any initiative they may have!

RAT 5 8th Oct 2017 17:28

If each crew is entitled to one month's annual leave then there should invariably be 170 crews on leave at any one time and should they not be taking their leave then leave be allocated to them, so, on the line, 2,050 crews has been reduced to 1,880 crews so we're down to 4.65 line crews per aircraft ... It gets worse!

Ah, but if you do not allow any summer leave and then park up 25% of the fleet for the winter and allocate 1 months leave (i.e. a whole years worth in one pop, almost) during the winter when there is no work any way, you might just get by. In this current situation that 6 month plan had to be squeezed, at the last minute, into 3 months, Ooops.

Harry Wayfarers 8th Oct 2017 18:04

But when I did Recruitment, that was after I did Crew Scheduling :) , RYR were so squeezed for crews during their apparent 'parked up' winters that we would be placing Excel's contract pilots with RYR to bail RYR out of the poo!

It sounds like that someone got carried away trying to save so much money whilst maximising profits they lost sight of reality!

DublinPole 8th Oct 2017 18:15

Actually the problem was they were more interested in providing short term good customer service by large use of standby crews to maintain the punctuality record and recover service during disruption, strikes and bad weather at the expense of sustainable management of pilot hours.

Ryanair subs in extra crews to recover service and to keep flights on time when other airlines simply allow delays to build and build to the point where crews run out of hours and then flights are cancelled. If they took the same approach as other airlines they'd be able to run the pilot schedules more efficiently at the expense of later running flights and more short notice cancellations.

Harry Wayfarers 8th Oct 2017 18:26

The expression "a prevention is better than a cure" springs to mind"!

vikingivesterled 8th Oct 2017 20:22

If you operate a long backroom schedule and roster it accordingly, you can see how many flights you can crew and avoid selling flights you can't. You can also see that 12 into 9 won't work before you start selling it. If you sell 6 months out but operate with a rolling 6 week roster, one day you will have to tell your boss that you 5 weeks out can't make the following week work since you don't have enough crew to cover the already sold flights. And at that stage it will be to late to recruit and train people to make up the shortfall.

I remember when the published roster was only 1 week out. This worked when they where a small airline and the following cancellations didn't affect hundreds of thousands of people that got huge press and gained political interest. You could disappoint only a small percentage of your total customers with a simple refund. They've just discovered that being the big-boy also have some disadvantages.

Problem is you are never going to roster far enough out using just more manpower. It will be a case of too many cooks and too litle oversight. And what about running scenarios. We are talking making up maybe 3 or more alternative full year rosters with different parameters. Luckily others have already had the problem, solved it, and FR just have to utilize more of the resulting tools with some adjustments/localization.

oldart 9th Oct 2017 09:04

Is it the norm for airlines to expect their crews to take annual holidays in autumn or winter? Obviously a company would expect to have maximum crewing during the summer but do they have spare crews to take holidays when they want to?

Harry Wayfarers 9th Oct 2017 11:14

Not in my experience, take 50% in the summer and 50% in the winter ... or thereabouts ... Else how the hell are we going to lay off our summer only contract crews whilst all these fruitcakes want to take their skiing holidays? :)

compton3bravo 9th Oct 2017 17:08

A grand total of 102 flights have been cancelled from/to Spain from this evening until Wednesday due to a French air traffic strike. I make no comment and leave you to make your own minds!

GAZMO 9th Oct 2017 17:19

Wow that's some list of cancelled flights on their website

Other airlines do not appear to be cancelling. ATC strikes not covered by EU261so only refund or rebook

vikingivesterled 9th Oct 2017 18:04

easyJet has a notice up on their latest-travel-information, but do not provide a list of flights, instead chosing to (partial quote) communicate only with affected customers via email and sms. Guess Ryanair is trying to avoid worrying those not affected, as per previous problem.

Vokes55 9th Oct 2017 18:37

This is a tactic Ryanair have been using for at least two years. French ATC strikes are a godsend to them, as it allows them to cancel almost any flight that goes anywhere near France, and they have an 'external influence' to avoid compensation claims, whilst saving pilot hours to crew future flights.

What they don't tell you is that they don't train all crews to fly Oceanic routes, so whilst every other airline can fly around French airspace on the Tango routes, they can't. Why would they, it's more cost effective for them to cancel the flight than increase fuel burn and pilot time during times of strike.

All just my opinion, of course.

Alsacienne 9th Oct 2017 19:25

And the T9 corridor? Also going up the Belgian border ...

vikingivesterled 9th Oct 2017 19:47

So who is running operations now, and have the power to make snap decisions about major multi-reroutes increasing costs but saving what is left of reputation.

BFS BHD 11th Oct 2017 17:14

When is Ryanair expected to receive their first 737 MAX 200?

PPRuNeUser0176 11th Oct 2017 18:12

22% pay rise for STN pilots if they continue to negotiate with ERC and accept by 20 October. Also includes more direct employment. MAD also made an offer.

Ryanair offers 22% pay rise to Stansted-based pilots

davidjohnson6 11th Oct 2017 19:01

New routes for summer 2018
Athens - Billund
Athens - Gdansk
Athens - Karlsruhe
Athens - Lappeenranta
Athens - Lodz
Athens - Memmingen
Athens - Rzeszow
Athens - Vilnius
Ahtnes - Wroclaw

vikingivesterled 12th Oct 2017 10:45

If you know there is going to be a 1 day disruption due to atc strikes, with spare aircrafts why not reschedule some of the flights you can't reroute, for the following day. You know there will be a lot of passengers you now have to feed and overnight. And if your loads are consistently around 90% you are not going to reaccommodate them all on other own flights in the near future. You could use the crew that would be at the end of the working part of their 5/4 rosters and move 1 of their working days 1 day out, plus some standbys. If slot restricted just move the times slightly.

Being in the eye of a better educated public, on the watchlist of regulators, and having to stick to the rules at times of cancellations means one have to think in new ways you before didn't want to. Sample, now need to have prearranged rates and agreeements with low price hotels and bus companies at least near your bases, so you can just call and block book at reduced rates. Plus the need for trained on-call extra ticketdesk staff and floorwalkers.

Also need new insights into how much a disruption really cost you since with a get your own food/transport/accommodation and claim back attitude, actual numbers will only be available months down the line and more difficult to pair to a specific event.

racedo 12th Oct 2017 18:31


Originally Posted by vikingivesterled (Post 9922536)
If you know there is going to be a 1 day disruption due to atc strikes, with spare aircrafts why not reschedule some of the flights you can't reroute, for the following day. You know there will be a lot of passengers you now have to feed and overnight.

EU261 dioesn't apply to strikes.

Trav a la 12th Oct 2017 19:11

I think that statement is open to interpretation.

vikingivesterled 12th Oct 2017 23:48


Originally Posted by racedo (Post 9923000)
EU261 dioesn't apply to strikes.

EU261 monetary compensation don't but duty of care do. That interpretation is now done. So food, accommodation and rescheduling will be needed even though the set amount won't be due. Maybe even rescheduling with competitors or other modes of transport. If you are not prepared there will be uncontrollable amounts of claims later, after people have bought their own accommodation, local transport and flights at highly inflated prices.
The 5 quid vouchers FR is handing out is probably more than the army spends per soldier per day in food. And fold-out beds in emergency shelter are also accommodation, and much cheaper than a hotel the passenger finds themselves resulting in a bill in the post or via small-claims down the line. If its offered and they refuse it it becomes their problem.

Being the largest carrier is a different ballgame where everything you do affects many, plus gets massive press so is monitored by politicians and therefore regulators. One can't get away with as much. Other regulators than the UK's are preparing their cases so some preperatory action is needed. FR let the genie out of the box and it ain't going back in unless it becomes a UK no deal airline or IRL leaves the EU and it falls apart.

owenc 13th Oct 2017 08:25

Can someone help me? I rebooked a Ryanair flight at a cost of £100 with Easyjet and then claimed EU261.

This morning, Ryanair contacted me to inform me that I would not be entitled to the EU261 and would not be getting my £100 back.

This £100, I need it back, it came out of my monthly allowance for university, I wouldn't have taken it out if I wasn't guaranteed to get this money back.

I am a British citizen and the CAA threatened Ryanair into giving this EU261 thing back.

Anyway, they've declined my money. I see no reason why they would do so, since a: not my fault, b: told that they have to give it back by the CAA, c: They don't offer another flight option from London back to Belfast, so they couldn't have rebooked my flight on their airline and so I had no choice but to rebook on Easyjet!

owenc 13th Oct 2017 08:51

This is the piece on the BBC News website that spurred me to rebook, expecting money back:
You can apply for a refund. Even if it is only the outbound portion of the flight that is cancelled, you can still get a refund for the return leg, assuming you do not want to use it.
Or you can chose an alternative flight - perhaps on an earlier or later date. In most cases Ryanair will offer you another flight with them.
However, the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) says that if Ryanair fails to offer a place on an alternative Ryanair flight within a reasonable timeframe then you have the right to be booked onto a different airline at no extra cost.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41305537

Surely, this applies to me, since Ryanair has cancelled both the Stansted Flight to Derry and the Gatwick flight to Belfast?

owenc 13th Oct 2017 08:58

Our original notification sent in respect of this cancellation offered you the appropriate EU 261/2004 entitlements, which included either a refund or a free date change.

As you were notified of this cancellation 14 days (or more) in advance of the scheduled departure date of this disrupted flight, we regret to advise that you are not entitled to monetary compensation under Regulation EU 261/2004.

Then, they say this at the end though:Furthermore, please note that we are ready to reimburse your receipted expenses; therefore in order for us to complete the payment, we kindly request you to upload your bank details (as the bank details provided are incorrect) by using the below link:

Does this just infer the refund for the flight or the 100 pounds? I am confused?

Trav a la 13th Oct 2017 09:21


Originally Posted by vikingivesterled (Post 9923247)
That interpretation is now done.

Sorry to be pedantic, but it would be misleading to say that prior to a precedent setting court case which defines it precisely.

For instance, BA flights getting caught up in the French ATC strikes are probably EC's, as the cause of the strike is outside the control of BA.

BA flights getting caught up in a BA staff strike is within the control of BA, so not an EC.

What about a RA flight being cancelled due to French ATC strike but the flight does not fly into or even near French ATC controlled air space? It cannot be directly caused by the strike, so not an EC.

Just because strikes are quoted in the regs as a possible EC does not mean that all are. The devil is in the details and every case must be examined on it's merits, which is what the regs also say.


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:53.


Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.