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-   -   Ryanair-10 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/599821-ryanair-10-a.html)

The Fat Controller 16th Sep 2017 13:39

Pissing off a lot of people !

RAT 5 16th Sep 2017 15:15

And what reaction from the contractors? They trip half way across Europe in their own time and at own cost to position in for a few days supposedly lucrative work. They then find, at last minute, 50% of their flights are cancelled. They sit in an hotel at their own cost on unpaid SBY and then trudge their weary way home, to be repeated. If I treated a contractor like that, i.e. they turned up at my house and I said "sorry mate, but I'm off out for the day," I would receive a bill for their wasted time.
If it is true rostering staff have bailed out (or is it crewing) how will any roster be published? No roster = no crews in the correct place at the correct time. And how does Flt OPs, or commercial, decide which flight to cancel? Is there a morning dice-rolling session?

dusk2dawn 16th Sep 2017 15:16

A link to said recent ruling in European Court that is supposed to be the beginning of the end for MOL, please?

airbourne 16th Sep 2017 15:21


Originally Posted by SeaBreeze1 (Post 9893574)

The big problem here is crew shortage. Rumour from within says RYR are losing approx 150-200 pilots and cabin crew every couple of months.

I was told over 100 cabin crew quit in the last couple of weeks?

Scary if true!

Piltdown Man 16th Sep 2017 15:34

I find it surprising that Europe's largest, most punctual airline and profitable airline (so we are constantly told by a certain individual) is cancelling flights. This means that they have poor planning and/or insufficient staff on standby and/or insufficient staff who they can call in on Days Off to perform their advertised flight schedule. Calling people on Days Off is normal for airlines when their back is against the wall. They can rely on staff who care about their company to get them out of a hole. Unless of course...

tubby linton 16th Sep 2017 16:02


Originally Posted by dusk2dawn (Post 9893715)
A link to said recent ruling in European Court that is supposed to be the beginning of the end for MOL, please?

https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/def...ome%20Base.pdf

Johnny [email protected] Pants 16th Sep 2017 16:05

Thread started here nearly a week ago

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...g-flights.html

Starbear 16th Sep 2017 16:21

I think the wheels are finally coming off. (see what I did there?)

airsound 16th Sep 2017 16:21

Sorry Johnny FP - didn't think of looking in T&E before starting this thread!

Mods - feel free to merge if you think it's appropriate....

WHBM 16th Sep 2017 16:31


Originally Posted by Piltdown Man (Post 9893731)
Europe's largest ... and profitable airline (so we are constantly told by a certain individual)

Given this, which is regularly trotted out by O'Leary, why don't they subcharter in ?

Bonderman still wanting too much of the profits each month ?

Vokes55 16th Sep 2017 16:33

But most airlines offer their staff incentives to work days off. Contractors in Ryanair will only be paid their standard hourly rate, and with all pilots on and limited to 900 hours per year, there's no benefit to working outside of your five days on.

Proper companies offer their staff a day off payment. Ryanair would rather pay EU261 claims than give their staff any more money.

Bravo Zulu 16th Sep 2017 16:43


Originally Posted by Starbear (Post 9893758)
I think the wheels are finally coming off. (see what I did there?)


Beat you to that one on the other thread! Pretty Apt though hay!!

daz211 16th Sep 2017 16:47


Originally Posted by Vokes55 (Post 9893765)
But most airlines offer their staff incentives to work days off. Contractors in Ryanair will only be paid their standard hourly rate, and with all pilots on and limited to 900 hours per year, there's no benefit to working outside of your five days on.

Proper companies offer their staff a day off payment. Ryanair would rather pay EU261 claims than give their staff any more money.

This was always going to be bad for Ryanair but whoever thought they should try and fool or side step the paying passengers by putting the airlines punctuality before passengers needs and expectations, needs to be sacked, how on earth could an airline think by saying our punctuality is so important we have decided to cancel your flights just how was the paying passenger ment to take this they were never going to get sympathy but this has back fired more than any of us know.

Ryanair would have been better off spinning it with sorry we have grown so fast and our new aircraft are rolling off the production line faster than we can train staff and we apologise but we are a victim of our own success.

I'm sure it would have gone down better than on time performance :ugh:

daz211 16th Sep 2017 17:00

So tomorrow's cancellation list is out, Sorry I'm not good with numbers but no matter how hard I try I can't make the math add up to 40 or 50 more like 80 again http://bit.ly/2y5V7L8

KelvinD 16th Sep 2017 17:10

BBC interviewed a woman from Newcastle a couple of hours ago. She is in Wroclaw and due to fly back to Newcastle Monday. Ryanair emailed her to tell her the flight was cancelled. The passenger was unable to contact Ryanair by phone, email etc and was left with Ryanair's generous offer of a fare refund. 19.90 in her case. Taking an alternative flight is a bit tricky as Ryanair is apparently the only carrier flying between the 2 cities. Ryaniar have said that all passengers affected have been notified by email.

vikingivesterled 16th Sep 2017 17:12


Originally Posted by daz211 (Post 9893777)
So tomorrow's cancellation list is out, Sorry I'm not good with numbers but no matter how hard I try I can't make the math add up to 40 or 50 more like 80 again http://bit.ly/2y5V7L8

Could the operations message to commercial have been lost in translation and they meant pairs instead of legs. Operationally you would probably cancel both the outbound and return in 1 transaction.

RAT 5 16th Sep 2017 17:14

'Airline goes on strike against passengers.' We'll let you buy a ticket then cancel the flight. Now where did I see that headline. It sounds Irish anyway.

It has been said so many times that unions have the longterm best interest of a company at heart. They want to have a long career. They also want a fair deal, and that is where the discussion breaks down. A union looks further ahead than management and can see a tsunami of poo building up over the horizon and knows on whose heads it is going to land. They try to be proactive to avoid such events because it does nobody any good in the long run. Bonuses & share price might rise in the short-term, but the pressure has built up and then bang. Good unions have often had to hang 'told you so' on the factory gates.
Would a unionised RYR have been in this state? Discuss.

daz211 16th Sep 2017 17:29


Originally Posted by vikingivesterled (Post 9893792)
Could the operations message to commercial have been lost in translation and they meant pairs instead of legs. Operationally you would probably cancel both the outbound and return in 1 transaction.

You might be right but this makes no sense as Ryanair's flights are not sold on the same basis as charter flights where the passengers on the outbound are more or less the same people on the inbound
But again this is Ryanair trying to pull the wool over passengers eyes by saying 40 flights should mean 40 flights but it's actually 80 flights
This is a massive mess and there is no point in Ryanair trying to hide or spin this they are just digging themselves deeper in to a massive hole just wait to see the share price Monday but I guess on the bright side some people will be making a lot of money buying shares in the next few days

LGS6753 16th Sep 2017 17:58

So, 80 flights today and 83 tomorrow.

Say 80 per day at 189 seats per aircraft at 90% load factor for six weeks (42 days). I make that 570,000 people disrupted.

If the real reason (as stated) is a requirement by the IAA to alter the holiday year, I'm sure MOL will be planning justifiable legal action against them, in which he would have a good chance of success.

Strangely, I've not heard any confirmation of this legal action.

vikingivesterled 16th Sep 2017 18:10


Originally Posted by daz211 (Post 9893806)
just wait to see the share price Monday

Might not be as bad as one thinks. This can be a cost saving exercise over time if they are carefull sticking to high frequency destinations and cancel low load flights with alternative departures shortly before of after. It will certainly take more than their historic 1day/1week operational timehorizon.
Wonder if they ever got around integrating or transferring loads regularly from reservations to operations system, an AOCM (Automated Optimal Cancellation Module) might have been to negative a sounding investment.

Starbear 16th Sep 2017 18:12


Originally Posted by Bravo Zulu (Post 9893767)
Beat you to that one on the other thread! Pretty Apt though hay!!

Drat! and I thought I was being so clever, I even did a quick check but clearly failed. Kudos!

WHBM 16th Sep 2017 18:29


Originally Posted by LGS6753 (Post 9893826)
If the real reason (as stated) is a requirement by the IAA to alter the holiday year, I'm sure MOL will be planning justifiable legal action against them,

How long ago did the IAA announce this ? Presumably not last Friday.

So the question is why did they continue to offer such a schedule when they could see this coming and knew their resources.

mikeygd 16th Sep 2017 18:35

It wasn't their fault, They had to change holiday accruement dates to fit in with a thing called a calendar. And obviously, it was a surprise that there was a strike in France. And also, who could predict the weather? Rain in summer? Whats next? Ground the fleet this winter because snow is forecast in Dubai?

CaptainSensible 16th Sep 2017 18:58

The real reason pure and simple is that people are leaving quicker than they can be replaced. At long last employees and ZHC's are realising there are other options out there and have had enough. Irrespective of how they try and spin it, it is a situation of their own making. Greed has triumphed over common sense. They refuse to engage with the workforce, maybe they'll listen to the markets on Monday?

DaveReidUK 16th Sep 2017 19:01


Originally Posted by WHBM (Post 9893849)

Originally Posted by LGS6753 (Post 9893826)
If the real reason (as stated) is a requirement by the IAA to alter the holiday year, I'm sure MOL will be planning justifiable legal action against them, in which he would have a good chance of success.

How long ago did the IAA announce this?

I'd be surprised if it has anything to do with "holidays".

Ryanair has form, going back at least 15 years, of abusing the regulations on how many hours pilots can fly in any rolling 12-month period.

The airline used to argue (maybe they still do) that as long as the April-to-March figure is within the limit, then the number of hours flown in any other rolling 12-month period doesn't matter.

I suspect that could well be at the root of the present problem, where the current flying programme would lead to crews busting the limit for the 12 months up to the end of October.

Inquiry into Ryanair pilots' working hours

fireflybob 16th Sep 2017 19:41

I'm reminded of Zig Ziglar (a US motivational speaker) who stated decades ago that the biggest mistake the (US) airlines made was to think they were in the "transportation" business yet they (in common with almost every business) are actually in the "people" business - i.e. good relationships between the company and the customers and the staff etc.

It seems little has been learned.

RAT 5 16th Sep 2017 20:17

Inquiry into Ryanair pilots' working hours

The Irish Times says that RYR came to an agreement in mid-2016 with IAA & EASA to align its year to EASA standard of January 1st - December 31st. This has caused problems in allocating leave etc. It also says that IAA is investigating if RYR pilots had been working over legal FTL's due to a 'zeroing of hours' in April as the old financial year was dated. It also says that part of the dispute/agreement was over the definition of a calendar year as defined in FTL's. I find it astonishing that IAA is bringing this investigation about now when they approved the zeroing policy >15 years ago and therefore must have been aware of the practice. Has EASA at last proved useful on behalf of crews? And what of C/A's. They also have limits.

EI-EIDW 16th Sep 2017 21:22


I find it astonishing that IAA is bringing this investigation about now when they approved the zeroing policy >15 years ago and therefore must have been aware of the practice.
No strictly correct, you feel it's been a long running row, its really easy to delay implementing things.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...ions-1.3223808

TonyDavis 17th Sep 2017 05:34

Question? Is Ryanair in financial trouble?

Lots of poor excuses here. Has the expansion been too rapid and has the beast got out of control.

greatoaks 17th Sep 2017 06:48

Bullet Points
 
Its cheaper to pay pax compo than:
  • reward your staff
  • provide a duty of care for stsff
  • offer professional customer service
  • complete your contractual obligation of transporting customers
  • sub-contatct any available ad-hoc capacity
But in reality the end result will be:


  • A small percentage will vow to never fly with them again
  • A quick 9.99 seat sale will help most to overlook their principles and on we go again.


I do think that Norwegian should re-design one of the old Ryr adverts to dig in a little.

DaveReidUK 17th Sep 2017 06:48


Originally Posted by RAT 5 (Post 9893932)
I find it astonishing that IAA is bringing this investigation about now when they approved the zeroing policy >15 years ago and therefore must have been aware of the practice.

The article from 2002 linked in my previous post makes it clear that any "zeroing" policy being approved then by the IAA in relation to FTL didn't and doesn't give Ryanair a loophole to ignore the limitation that applies to any rolling 12-month period.

"it was emphasised that, despite the permission, no pilot should go over the limit in any rolling 12-month period. It's the company's responsibility as well as the pilots' to abide by that."

RAT 5 17th Sep 2017 07:43

"it was emphasised that, despite the permission, no pilot should go over the limit in any rolling 12-month period. It's the company's responsibility as well as the pilots' to abide by that."

Ah, but did they? The company that is? It would be difficult for a lonely pilot to refuse a roster they considered broke FTL's and lose out any contractor payments. What about type rated guys who joined from other operators, before the current winter grounding, with hours in the bank, went onto the line quickly and then were zero'd in April and worked like slaves until October. Was anyone looking out for them? It would be a nifty computer program for rostering to keep track of their individual 12 month hours; but good if they tried.

DaveReidUK 17th Sep 2017 07:52

The article would suggest not:

"In the past fortnight, a Ryanair pilot has issued a formal complaint against the airline, claiming he had been rostered to fly for longer than the 900-hour recommended limit for a year.

Several other complaints have been made to the British Airline Pilots' Association (BALPA), which expressed concern yesterday at apparent breaches in safety regulations.

A spokesman for the association said one of the complainants had alleged that more than half of Ryanair pilots were working over hours."

FlyingStone 17th Sep 2017 09:13


Originally Posted by DaveReidUK (Post 9893873)
Ryanair has form, going back at least 15 years, of abusing the regulations on how many hours pilots can fly in any rolling 12-month period.

The airline used to argue (maybe they still do) that as long as the April-to-March figure is within the limit, then the number of hours flown in any other rolling 12-month period doesn't matter.

I suspect that could well be at the root of the present problem, where the current flying programme would lead to crews busting the limit for the 12 months up to the end of October.

I'm not familiar with any Irish differences, but in the days of the old EU OPS FTL (Subpart Q), there was no limit as to the rolling 12 months period, as it is now with EASA CS-FTL. Just the 900 block hours per calendar year and 100 block hours in 28 rolling days.

[email protected] 17th Sep 2017 10:26

What was Ryanair's learjet in at East Midlands yesterday for does anyone know?

WHBM 17th Sep 2017 10:31

Did it have a spare wheel inside ? :)

Richard Taylor 17th Sep 2017 10:51

Surprised they didn't cancel it :E

A0283 17th Sep 2017 12:29

Ryanair scheduling update
 
Ryanair cancels flights after 'messing up' pilot holidays - BBC News

Marketing officer Kenny Jacobs said affected customers with bookings up to 20 September had been informed."We have messed up in the planning of pilot holidays and we're working hard to fix that," he said.Most of the cancellations are due to a backlog of staff leave which has seen large numbers of the airline's staff book holidays towards the end of the year.The airline is changing its holiday year, which currently runs from April to March, to run from January to December instead.Rynanair said the shift meant it had to allocate annual leave to pilots in September and October.
Interesting to see that earlier Pprune posts explained 'that ;-)' before the airline got this message out. My compliments to the Pprune posters!

skyloone 17th Sep 2017 13:00

I gather FR insist that pilots make a choice of months from a list and then company allocates it. 25 days leave, 15 must be taken in the one month (works out with 5/4 roster). They reduced the ad hoc days from 10 to 3 to account for reduced year. Used to only be applicable to contractors... part of the whole self employed lark. Then rolled out to all staff. Company surly knew about this a long time in advance (2016 according to press?) So either they got their maths wrong (I have my doubts) or they sold a schedule but underestimated the resignations and over estimated training capacity. Appropriate, good, stable staffing are the key to any business and FR would do well to address these fundamental issues. It must be getting expensive. As an aside I gather there's a rumour of a backlog of delivery's that are on hold due to FR not wanting to accept them at this time. Anyone with info on this?
I was asked by a relative about whether he should book a flight given the risk of cancellations.... no idea was my answer. I think he's booked with a competitor as he can't take the risk due work and therin lies another cost that's difficult to quantify..... trust!

A0283 17th Sep 2017 14:24

@skyloone ...

From an organizational point of view this is a very interesting case. As close to an organizational systemic failure as you can get, and one which (at first sight) is completely internal from a causal point of view. With obvious and damaging external effects of course.

In general such cases have a number of cultural and personal aspects in common. Sometimes the solution is fast and surprisingly easy. In other cases ...


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