Regarding who should move to T2, it's already been discussed...
http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airpo...ml#post9911728

Not that cryptic I suspect (at least to long term readers of the Manchester threads on here)!

Isn't this the same United that dropped the 777 on EWR, dropped the second daily B757 and then dropped Washington? Not sure they've got the traction in market at the mo.

Galley FM also had BA picking JFK up with 10 abreast B777s! Also BA were selling connections LHR-MAN-ORD. It's more of a different market now, remember just how much of the US legacy traffic was one stop to the House of Mouse and how many better options that has nowadays. Lot's more options on P2P too.

An intermittent 757 service must have also killed the ORD cargo market. Remember the days of full F/J/Y flights with full cargo belly on the 767. Complacency doesn't even cover it.

I would class myself as a long term reader, and have no idea whether it refers to Norwegian, United, BA, Level, TCX, Virgin or any combination of the above!

It should certainly give cause for either a new entrant at ORD, or additional capacity elsewhere.

AA pulling back further must make it more likely for BA to return to long-haul at MAN.

Willie Walsh said at the IAG Capital Markets Day that BA could return to the regions with the A321LR.

Any BA partner that has pulled out over the years, such as Qantas or Cathay has always been suspected of caving to BA pressure to protect fortress Heathrow. However in this instance the 321LR comment is interesting.....

I don't think there is much chance BA have 'meddled' this time. The regions can provide relief for Heathrow and the JV means they get the same amounts whether a pax travels via LHR on BA or direct to ORD on AA.

I think this is purely down to more P2P being available from MAN and thus the legacy hubs were bound to feel the pinch.

As for UA to EWR, some interesting seat plans showing up in one GDS starting 23rd May, so looks like they could be ones to benefit from AA pulling JFK.....

In other news:

Turkish Airlines to use B77W on the TK1995/1996 16th December.

Fair amount of A330 usage in December and January too.

A tower crane has appeared at the T2 site, pretty tall too!

I've not seen that comment. However, Alex Cruz was less committal in his WTF interview. He didn't shut it down, confirmed they were looking at opportunities but that there was nothing imminent to report.

That doesn't make any sense at all. Why would BA/AA/OneWorld trash their reputation at MAN (which thy have done) in preparation for a switch to BA equipment? :confused: Not going to happen.

Far more likely that BA/OW are trying to get the route trashed further so that it gets pulled and they can get the Cardholders down to LHR or across to DUB.

Reliability is critical to regular travelers' choice of airline or route. AA have just become totally unreliable. Is any serious flyer going to take the risk of a missed connection or a missed meeting? In my mind thinking about AA, it's a probability more than just a risk.

As someone who flies the Atlantic regularly and has done since the early 90s, AA have thrown away the advantage they enjoyed through their own complacency.

I use the front end of TCX when available - it's a decent product at a fair price and they have in JetBlue a partner / hubbing option that is very very good by UK standards.
I can tell you they are picking up a fair bit of business traffic and connections with B6 as well.
As in any business if you get complacent, someone else will come in and take the business from you - AA only have themselves to blame - but no doubt they will blame the market. Not their fault naturally.

What I meant was I don’t think BA would happy to have virtually no Oneworld transatlantic presence at MAN.

There’s a fairly decent Executive Club base in MAN which I think BA would want to leverage with the right equipment & cost base, which wasn’t the case 10 years ago.

Not quite, their business model fundamentally changed. They killed the Pan Am / TWA model of feeding B747s at JFK to Europe by flying B767s from ORD/DFW/MIA directly and more often and in newer equipment. They had an enormous European presence which has since been downsized massively. The current business model, and one which does remarkably well for them is to code share on BA out of LHR both East and West. Hence MAN retains the ex US PHL route but ORD was left to wither on the vine.
So 789 or 772 then? Tell us, you know you want to......

Rumors for Manchester-Palermo by Ryanair, starting summer 2018

Doesn't that just confirm the suspicions that many have of 'other forces' at work here regarding AA?

Golly yes, it’s all BA’s fault as they hate MAN and are pulling strings at AA.
EVERYTHING is BA’s fault.
Especially the rain.
Grrrrr BA.
Now be honest, what’s the quid pro quo AA would get out of BA for dropping a previously good route? I honestly believe one should not attribute to conspiracy where incompetence is more likely.

Fair enough. Conspiracy aside (which I don't really care about) I prefer to make my decisions on the risks of missing a connection or a meeting. On that basis I stopped flying with AA around 3 years ago.
BTW when were you last on a TATL flight from Manchester? All this stuff about 'one-stop flights to the house of mouse' is pretty patronizing, slightly offensive and wide of the mark. I last flew Stateside yesterday on a near full A330 with no-sign of any potential mouse hunters.

Just a little word for the airport staff...as a regular user of Gatwick (fairly friendly) and Heathrow (anything but friendly), I have to say, the folk at MAN seem to be a cheery and helpful bunch. Passed through tonight, and they were a pleasure to deal with.

T3 is, however, a dogs dinner!

House of mouse !
Florida or LA ?

My local airport is Stansted, it might be construed as catering for the holidaymaker and one might possibly throw Gatwick into the mix but take away pure business traffic from both airports and there is only airport which by a countrymile meets the needs of the leisure industry and that's Heathrow.

It might be dressed up as a business hub but if you want to holiday in Dubai, Bangkok, The Seychelles, Maldives, South Africa, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Australia, New Zealand etc, etc, etc there is only one show in town!

Why is the fact that Orlando was once the biggest single onwards connection on the US legacies patronising? It made them a lot of money. Please don’t go out of your way to take offence.
Also, quizzing the 300 passengers on an A330 is a little unusual. Was the IFE broken? I just take a book.

If you were on TCX as you said earlier, then the majority for Disney would be on the MAN-MCO flight surely, the point here is TCX offer a better P2P option and hence take away the need to connect on a US carrier.

Perhaps you could type that in english Navpi are you saying that Manchester isn`t a proper international airport? if so don`t patronise us if it isn`t what you mean please explain because I have read and re read and it doesn`t make sense.

I think Navpi is trying to say LHR's traffic is overwhelmingly leisure, despite its professed business credentials.

American @ MAN
 

The thread continues its comedic ability to ascribe all woes at Manchester to "unfair" competition from LHR and other nearby hubs "robbing" Manchester of its rightful long-haul services.

When AA started ORD in 1986, it was one of (I think) only two scheduled routes to the US from MAN at the time, the other being BA's then-TriStar service to JFK. There were abortive attempts to fly LAX in the early 90s with the BA 767, but for many years, it reigned supreme as *the* way to fly from MAN to pretty much any US destination.

Fast-forward 30 years and you have multiple hub options including PHL, EWR, ATL, non-stop services by the bucketload to Orlando, Vegas and even Seattle, San Fran, LAX, Boston and Houston. All of those passengers either went via the likes of LHR before - or used the only non-stop hub service to Chicago. The proliferation of non-stop services will have an inevitable effect on viability of a not-particularly-well-placed hub service to Chicago.

American is prioritising Philadelphia as a more profitable, less congested and lower cost hub than ORD. PHL has the daily A330 and no sign of ramping back as they have at ORD.

The decline of ORD is a direct function of American's corporate prioritisation of the hub at PHL (their decision, and a route well served from MAN) and the huge growth of other non-stops from MAN to US points. It's not a conspiracy about diverting traffic to LHR or DUB, and it's risible to suggest so.

If you need any further proof, just look at the latest CAA stats. MAN-USA traffic in September was up 8% versus last year with an increase of over 14,000. MAN-LHR traffic was down 11% with 6,000 fewer pax. How can anyone possibly argue that MAN-USA direct services are being cut to divert passengers via Heathrow?!!

@Dobbo Dobbo well yes, not a secret. It does much better in terms of %business per flight and yield than say LGW or MAN which is why airlines pay silly money to get slots.
e.g. China Airlines relaunching London on the A359 out of Gatwick with PR stating they are actively seeking LHR slots for 2018. Why? Beacause LHR is preferred to LGW on long haul business. Emirates fly high Y A380s out of LGW but not LHR. The fact that most people are going on hols in terms of % throughput is secondary to the ability to charge more in the front cabins due to market preference.

LHR DOES have business credentials in a way LGW lacks in exactly the same way MAN has over say LPL or LBA. Some good points though from posters!

I think if you wind back this thread about 3 years there was a general feeling being expressed that MAN-PHL was a dying route. It had been down-gauged from A333 to A332, and the announcement that Astra-Zeneca were shrinking the Cheshire research centre seemed destined to take away much of the premium traffic. Roll on to today and MAN-PHL is just about all AA have left at MAN but it seems to be doing quite well, with no suggestion it will be cut back or pulled. Times change rapidly. 3 years ago MT weren't even flying to JFK let alone SFO, BOS, LAX and (soon) SEA. We probably are seeing a long-term decline in the presence of US Legacies at MAN, which is a shame in a sense but the overall picture on the MANtlantic is good and growing, a case of the right product wins. Europe is different, where most EU Legacies have survived, some have even thrived at MAN despite the meteoric growth of the locos.

And yes, we do often blame BA or LHR-centricity when something goes sideways. There is some historical justification for that sentiment but it is time we let it go. After all, when the last 'Speedbird' departed MAN we were at 20mppa, now we're at 28m. Where would you rather be?

Astra Z isn't shrinking. BA killed the AA routes, same as they killed the ISB, LGW, where do I stop. It' so LHR-centric it's sickening.

BA killed the AA routes, same as they killed the ISB, LGW, where do I stop. It' so LHR-centric it's sickening.

Really ? Sickening for who exactly ?
- BA/IAG and its shareholders ? No way, they're making loads of coin thanks very much
- The MAN catchment area ? Not really, they got lots of better options these days
- MAG ? Doubt it - probably glad to see the back of them in many ways
- BA die hards and avios junkies ? Maybe - but they've got all the BA options via LHR if that's what floats their boat
- The MAN plane spotting fraternity ? Definitely not - lots more exotic planes to see since BA left

As for Islamabad well BA haven't even flown from LHR to Pakistan for years thanks to security concerns and a state funded basket case carrier residing at the other end. And the ME3 mopped up whatever was left over.

And who wants to fly to LGW to connect with the BA beach destinations now that most of them are served direct from MAN ? If there was a local point to point market for LGW FlyBe would be doing it, but they seem happy enough with Southampton

Astra Zeneca did reduce at Alderley Edge when they moved a lot of R&D to Cambridge
but the gap left has been filled by many other small companies on the site in a centre of excellence so all in all the medical research has changed a bit and is growing again
hence PHL doing better.

Being devil's advocate for the moment, it could be argued that it's those very stats that make BA/One World keen to win back lost pax, particularly frequent flyers/card holders, by taking steps they deem appropriate. As it happens, I'm far from convinced BA's hand is at work here. The argument that it's more non-stop services to other cities by TCX/VS that have impacted adversely on ORD is far stronger in my view, a situation which has probably been accentuated by some AA incompetence.

There is though the question of whether Chicago is a city that could attract p2p traffic, business or leisure. I've only visited the centre a couple of times and that was 20 years ago, but I gather it is regarded as a fine city. The problem for leisure travellers is that the surrounding areas may not have the same appeal for fly-drive holidays and tours. Boston is a great city and has New England; SFO & LAX are very popular in their own right but then there is the superb California Coast to explore. And, well Orlando is Disney and Florida.

As an aside, from that perspective I was sorry we lost Washington. A capital city and with some great scenery and interesting places not too far away. But I digress.

No doubt Dublin 'is killing us'! Told someone to consider MAN-DUB-LAX as a winter alternate to LHR and now I'm greeted as a hero!

That Dublin pre-clearance is a bigger draw than we think and can support EI, AA and UA Chicago services!!

Not sure Dublin is killing us, it will always take some traffic but killing us is a bit strong.

Me for one. As far as I'm concerned the BA 'product' from LGW is far better than any of the charter/low cost options direct from MAN.
It is a PITA to drive down to LGW, park up for two weeks then drive back after a holiday but I will do it.

BA's short-haul product is the same as easyJet's. Why would you go all the way to LGW to fly to a destination served from MAN. And pay twice the price?

I think TURIN was referring to BA long haul preference, not short haul.

You can't seriously be saying that the BA beach fleet at LGW is better than say the VS beach fleet at MAN? They still using those clapped
out triples? Last time I was on one I had to move seat because the one I was in was broken...despite being bodged up with duct tape.

Depends where on the beach fleet he is going.

If it's the Caribbean, then don't forget there are no summer flight options to the likes of Antigua, St. Lucia, Port Of Span and Bahamas. Winter only sees 1-2 weekly at most on some of those too. Montego Bay could also be another point but with just TUI offering it, might not appeal to all if they don't have your hotel of choice.

The whole Dublin set-up has to be an issue impacting growth at some significant U.K. airports - most notably Manchester.

Pre-clearance facilities are a nice thing to talk about, but they’re not all that! And the more flights using DUB over the Atlantic the less appealing and less beneficial the whole pre-clearance set up gets. It simply moves the bottleneck to the east side of the Atlantic.

The bigger issue is the ludicrous level of U.K. Air Tax, with the ostriches down at Treasury in London murdering the regional aviation industry in the U.K. - even Double taxing U.K. domestic flights - and herding passengers in the direction of Dublin, Amsterdam etc. Then history shows that when other economies overheat, notably Ireland a few years back, the self-same sages under the direction of No 11 write out a big fat cheque from the hard-earned U.K. coffers to keep those who have faltered trucking along in the manner to which they have become accustomed!

Why not, for instance, multiply air tax on traffic being diverted out of the U.K. regions over other EU airports in order to help offset a tax break to the industry - both domestic and international - at airports inside the U.K.?

Oops sorry - that would require a thought wave to drift north of the Watford Gap. Silly Me! ....

You're unlikely to be flying to some of those places in the UK summer unless you are vfr.
Most of the Caribbean is susceptible to bad weather in the summer and autumn (hurricane season) and much of say Antigua and St Lucia shuts down for the summer months. Thats one reason why MAN routes to these places will only ever be seasonal winter

Thomson fly to MBJ/POP/PUJ/CUN and until recently, AUA and MT fly PUJ/CCC/VRA/SNU/HOG/CUN and VS fly BGI in the summer, as well as the Gatwick leisure routes (inc some extra TUI), so clearly a fair few people are flying there.

have you seen the clapped out 744's vs uses at MAN, if they are better than BA then BA are in trouble. oh another VS 744 AOG at MAN today!