British Airways-2
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 222
Likes: 73
From: UK
I think when Covid really ramped up in late March 2020, no one expected it to last so long. When did the 380s go CHR? BA probably thought store them somewhere close over the “dry” summer and then it will all be over and fly them back. Later on when it became clear the expect of the downturn, they probably looked at better long term options to avoid a cold wet winter?
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,877
Likes: 82
From: UK
Flew in XLED last week on an absolutely rammed BA11 to SIN, no issues.
A few days prior to that the BA11 due to be operated by XLEK was cancelled, getting Simon Calder's attention in the Indi as it was full of people going to the F1. Terrible PR for the airline.
This was one of the aircraft that's been to MNL for maintenance IIRC, is that part of the issue?
My workings suggest they need 10 aircraft to operate the current schedule, and have 12. Reasonable to expect that at least 1 will be in scheduled maint at any one time?
A few days prior to that the BA11 due to be operated by XLEK was cancelled, getting Simon Calder's attention in the Indi as it was full of people going to the F1. Terrible PR for the airline.
This was one of the aircraft that's been to MNL for maintenance IIRC, is that part of the issue?
My workings suggest they need 10 aircraft to operate the current schedule, and have 12. Reasonable to expect that at least 1 will be in scheduled maint at any one time?
Last edited by Wycombe; 27th September 2024 at 14:50.
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 308
Likes: 20
From: London
BA is postponing the relaunch of Kuala Lumpur at very short notice until 1 April 2025 due to 787 aircraft shortages caused by a lack of spare parts from RR. Not a good way to return to a route after an absence of over four years.
Things aren't getting any better with Boeing delaying the 777-9 until 2026.
Things aren't getting any better with Boeing delaying the 777-9 until 2026.
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 271
Likes: 57
From: UK
Thanks for the fuller picture. My guess is that a lot of the damage had already been done in France and that subsequent storage was possibly recognition that, an airfield in the middle of France, had its disadvantages in respect of keeping an airframe in the best condition. At the time getting engineers out and back would have been easier to France and this, with the storage for the entire fleet in one location being possible, perhaps swung it. I recall A319 flights taking place as “day returns” ferrying engineers out and back. Perhaps one day the full and true story will become more widely known. I guess also it was against a background of BA having taken a decision to ditch its entire 747 fleet and the A380 fleet must have been under close scrutiny too.
It was a panic measure to cut costs during COVID that saw BA off-load not only the Boeing 747s but also thousands of staff, including one-third of the Engineering staff, the B747 being withdrawn also allowed them to completely close their maintenance workshops in Hayes [just to the North of Heathrow] as the vast majority of the engineering work carried out there was Boeing 747 component overhaul.
While some may think it would not have been viable to keep the Boeing 747 fleet, they had already [in the main] been parked up for many months and were under a joint Boeing/BA care and maintenance plan that could have continued. Also I would point to Lufthansa who also withdrew their Boeing 747 fleet [a mix of Boeing 747-430 and -8] and since have returned their -8 fleet as well as eight of their B747-430 back to service.
Joined: Dec 2011
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 1,097
Likes: 74
From: South
They would have probably been in a lot better place now, if they had taken the decision to keep the existing Boeing 747-436 fleet and ditch the A380s during COVID. Sure the Boeing 747s would have been more costly to operate in fuel terms but they were a reliable, proven platform, with an engine that had been around for years and a good number of the Boeing 747-436 fleet had just gone through a complete cabin refurbishment that included new seats and the new Panasonic IFE system installed. Add to that no leasing costs [all the aircraft were owned outright] BA also had a few Boeing 747-436 that had a large [102 from memory] business class section for use on routes that sold high numbers pf business seats [mainly JFK]
It was a panic measure to cut costs during COVID that saw BA off-load not only the Boeing 747s but also thousands of staff, including one-third of the Engineering staff, the B747 being withdrawn also allowed them to completely close their maintenance workshops in Hayes [just to the North of Heathrow] as the vast majority of the engineering work carried out there was Boeing 747 component overhaul.
While some may think it would not have been viable to keep the Boeing 747 fleet, they had already [in the main] been parked up for many months and were under a joint Boeing/BA care and maintenance plan that could have continued. Also I would point to Lufthansa who also withdrew their Boeing 747 fleet [a mix of Boeing 747-430 and -8] and since have returned their -8 fleet as well as eight of their B747-430 back to service.
It was a panic measure to cut costs during COVID that saw BA off-load not only the Boeing 747s but also thousands of staff, including one-third of the Engineering staff, the B747 being withdrawn also allowed them to completely close their maintenance workshops in Hayes [just to the North of Heathrow] as the vast majority of the engineering work carried out there was Boeing 747 component overhaul.
While some may think it would not have been viable to keep the Boeing 747 fleet, they had already [in the main] been parked up for many months and were under a joint Boeing/BA care and maintenance plan that could have continued. Also I would point to Lufthansa who also withdrew their Boeing 747 fleet [a mix of Boeing 747-430 and -8] and since have returned their -8 fleet as well as eight of their B747-430 back to service.
Joined: Jun 2007
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 1,880
Likes: 495
From: Beyond the Blue Horizon
Rivet Joint
I tend to agree with you re BA and 747.As for A380 it appears to be making a remarkable comeback and was always a customer favourite. The 747 were long in the tooth and as you say Lufthansa has the 747 -8. I was on one last year up from SIN and i was ok but A380 or A350 are better.
Cheers
Mr Mac
I tend to agree with you re BA and 747.As for A380 it appears to be making a remarkable comeback and was always a customer favourite. The 747 were long in the tooth and as you say Lufthansa has the 747 -8. I was on one last year up from SIN and i was ok but A380 or A350 are better.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 308
Likes: 20
From: London
BA could have sent the A380s to the California desert like Qantas did.
I don't think the A380 should have been scrapped, but ditching the entire 747 fleet so soon into COVID-19 now looks like a huge mistake.
I don't think the A380 should have been scrapped, but ditching the entire 747 fleet so soon into COVID-19 now looks like a huge mistake.
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 271
Likes: 57
From: UK
Im not sure about that. The 747s days were numbered before Covid. If they were going to remove a fleet during Covid it was always going to be the 747s. It’s only a small fleet of A380s so removing them would have not saved much plus they are much younger. The only reason Lufthansa are still flying 747-4s is because they can’t get new aircraft. They were suppose to have lots of 787s and 777xs by now. 747-8s are younger and BA never had any.
Removing the A380s would have saved more than you think. You have the A380 leasing costs [B747-436s were all owned] and spares are neither plentiful or cheap for the A380. I point you to the example of Emirates, who removed a couple of A380s just so they could part them out for spares. Not only did BA overhaul a lot of B747 spares in house [see my previous post] a number of spares used on Boeing 747s were also common to other Boeing models so plentiful and [relatively] cheap in comparison.
And your statement 'The only reason Lufthansa are still flying 747-4s is because they can’t get new aircraft' I don't think that problem only affects Lufthansa.
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 271
Likes: 57
From: UK
Rivet Joint
I tend to agree with you re BA and 747.As for A380 it appears to be making a remarkable comeback and was always a customer favourite. The 747 were long in the tooth and as you say Lufthansa has the 747 -8. I was on one last year up from SIN and i was ok but A380 or A350 are better.
Cheers
Mr Mac
I tend to agree with you re BA and 747.As for A380 it appears to be making a remarkable comeback and was always a customer favourite. The 747 were long in the tooth and as you say Lufthansa has the 747 -8. I was on one last year up from SIN and i was ok but A380 or A350 are better.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 271
Likes: 57
From: UK
Flew in XLED last week on an absolutely rammed BA11 to SIN, no issues.
A few days prior to that the BA11 due to be operated by XLEK was cancelled, getting Simon Calder's attention in the Indi as it was full of people going to the F1. Terrible PR for the airline.
This was one of the aircraft that's been to MNL for maintenance IIRC, is that part of the issue?
My workings suggest they need 10 aircraft to operate the current schedule, and have 12. Reasonable to expect that at least 1 will be in scheduled maint at any one time?
A few days prior to that the BA11 due to be operated by XLEK was cancelled, getting Simon Calder's attention in the Indi as it was full of people going to the F1. Terrible PR for the airline.
This was one of the aircraft that's been to MNL for maintenance IIRC, is that part of the issue?
My workings suggest they need 10 aircraft to operate the current schedule, and have 12. Reasonable to expect that at least 1 will be in scheduled maint at any one time?
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 266
Likes: 56
From: UK
2020: 25 aircraft
2021: 20 aircraft
2022: 12 aircraft
2023: 3 aircraft
The final retirement was to be in February 2024. The 3 retro jets were going to be amongst the last with G-BNLY being one of the 2023 threesome.
Granted that was alongside a 777-9 delivery schedule of 8 in 2022, 6 in 2023 and 4 in 2024. So who knows what might have happened there with extending the 747 life if the 77X was still delayed.
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 271
Likes: 57
From: UK
Planned 747 fleet numbers from the November 2019 Capital Markets Day presentation was,
2020: 25 aircraft
2021: 20 aircraft
2022: 12 aircraft
2023: 3 aircraft
The final retirement was to be in February 2024. The 3 retro jets were going to be amongst the last with G-BNLY being one of the 2023 threesome.
Granted that was alongside a 777-9 delivery schedule of 8 in 2022, 6 in 2023 and 4 in 2024. So who knows what might have happened there with extending the 747 life if the 77X was still delayed.
2020: 25 aircraft
2021: 20 aircraft
2022: 12 aircraft
2023: 3 aircraft
The final retirement was to be in February 2024. The 3 retro jets were going to be amongst the last with G-BNLY being one of the 2023 threesome.
Granted that was alongside a 777-9 delivery schedule of 8 in 2022, 6 in 2023 and 4 in 2024. So who knows what might have happened there with extending the 747 life if the 77X was still delayed.
but it's all a bit academic now anyway
Guest
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 554
Likes: 44
From: UK
As I have said elsewhere hindsight can be a wonderful thing. At the time of the Covid crisis BA was losing millions of pounds every day. The delays to the 779 programme were not able to be predicted at that time either.
BA was in survival mode. Anyway all academic now.
BA was in survival mode. Anyway all academic now.
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,877
Likes: 82
From: UK
BA is postponing the relaunch of Kuala Lumpur at very short notice until 1 April 2025
Anyway, we've been re-booked to SIN which suits us fine for the purposes of this trip
Joined: Oct 2002
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 8,201
Likes: 347
From: London UK
Knowing the typical curve of when bookings arise on long haul, I'd be most surprised at flights being 'heavily booked' 5 months before operating. Especially on a new route.
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,841
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
Family were due to trael mid-November to KL. Managed to get rebooked onto Qatar. Friends due to go to KL on this a couple of weeks later too. Ditching a new route, rather than paring back on places that other One World carriers could take up the slack seems like a poor choice.
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,808
Likes: 125
From: Essex
Family were due to trael mid-November to KL. Managed to get rebooked onto Qatar. Friends due to go to KL on this a couple of weeks later too. Ditching a new route, rather than paring back on places that other One World carriers could take up the slack seems like a poor choice.
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,877
Likes: 82
From: UK
Travelmole have picked it up in their newsfeed now Engine issues force cancellation of hundreds of BA flights
We were also offered Qatar to KUL as an alternative, but the timings weren't great and SIN works just as well for us. Saying that I had my first experience of Qatar returning from another trip via DOH last week, and have to say their product (even in the cheap seats) takes some beating.
Last edited by Wycombe; 15th October 2024 at 14:55.
Joined: Oct 2002
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 8,201
Likes: 347
From: London UK
New "brunch" menu seems to have gone down like a lead balloon all round. Just one of many critical articles
British Airways cuts back on in-flight lunch in ‘crackpot’ decision
Always amazing how reductions in service standards are written up as "wonderfully welcomed by customers", isn't it ? It would be instructive to compare this latest long haul Business Class menu with what BA used to serve in economy a generation ago.
British Airways cuts back on in-flight lunch in ‘crackpot’ decision
Always amazing how reductions in service standards are written up as "wonderfully welcomed by customers", isn't it ? It would be instructive to compare this latest long haul Business Class menu with what BA used to serve in economy a generation ago.
Last edited by WHBM; 29th October 2024 at 12:09.