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Old 11th Mar 2024, 17:21
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Originally Posted by vectisman
If such rumours should ever come it fruition it will more likely be BA Euroflyer, who already operate the A320.
Yes, you're correct, sorry, I can't keep up with the name changes. 😁
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Old 11th Mar 2024, 17:31
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Originally Posted by laviation
I have heard suggestions of MAN, would make logical sense as the first step outside of London. Big FF catchment as well as facilities to support expansion, existing IAG long haul presence for possible connections, right market for leisure routes, could it be the time to finally step back in to MAN? Time will tell.

I'd only expect to see Euroflyer at 2 ports outside of London. MAN and maybe a Scottish one. There just aren't the aircraft for more than that.
Would be nice for them to reopen a Glasgow BA base.
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Old 11th Mar 2024, 18:40
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I heard BHD had been mentioned or at least have had discussions with.
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Old 11th Mar 2024, 19:02
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Let's get real here! It's a mad idea, bonkers on stilts, a spotters wet dream. Let's test this.
Outside of London ;
Name 5 UK-xyz city pairs that BA could beat easyJet, Ryanair, TUI or Jet2 on?
Name 5 UK-xyz city pairs that BA could beat KLM, Air France, Lufthansa, Swiss or Iberia on?

I cannot concieve of one. They'd be a poor 3rd or 4th in sun volume markets and eaten alive in city business routes with no feed at either end. And that's before you get the notion they'd likely offer Club! I'd love them to try, they have an unbroken record of failure outside of London for......er forever, none of it ever made any real money. Unless it's Go-Fly II, this one's DOA.
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Old 11th Mar 2024, 19:16
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Hi Skip - I'm inclined to agree, although there is still a certain cache in the BA name which might attract a few...

We all know that 'profitable' is a moveable feast depending on how costs and revenue are allocated across a network, but what's the rationale for your "none of it ever made any real money" comment (apart from none of them are operating)?
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Old 11th Mar 2024, 19:59
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
Let's get real here! It's a mad idea, bonkers on stilts, a spotters wet dream. Let's test this.
Outside of London ;
Name 5 UK-xyz city pairs that BA could beat easyJet, Ryanair, TUI or Jet2 on?
Name 5 UK-xyz city pairs that BA could beat KLM, Air France, Lufthansa, Swiss or Iberia on?

I cannot concieve of one. They'd be a poor 3rd or 4th in sun volume markets and eaten alive in city business routes with no feed at either end. And that's before you get the notion they'd likely offer Club! I'd love them to try, they have an unbroken record of failure outside of London for......er forever, none of it ever made any real money. Unless it's Go-Fly II, this one's DOA.

Add into that from a MAN perspective, where the hell are they planning on parking them? T3 cannot take anymore RYR so it would have to involve a terminal move. They wonít go to T1 for 12 months before it shuts surely so that leaves T2 which is logical given EI UK, but T2 is already operating a vast remote parking operation (which Iím not sure is something BA would want) so I donít know where the space would come from for BA to base 3/4 a/c at MAN. Any smaller op than that surely isnít viable?
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Old 11th Mar 2024, 20:35
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I wouldnít disagree about the commercial prospects, but I keep hearing this rumour too. There must be some scintilla of possibility behind it.
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Old 11th Mar 2024, 23:04
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Originally Posted by Flightrider
I wouldnít disagree about the commercial prospects, but I keep hearing this rumour too. There must be some scintilla of possibility behind it.
Just out of curiosity but where are actually 'hearing' these rumours from?

If you're mixing in the same circles perhaps the people around you are continously telling you the same thing. Say it over and over again and people start to believe in whatever they say. I'm certainly not that type of person.

But it's a serious question and it might clarify things if you could let us know the source of these 'rumours' you keep 'hearing'.
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Old 11th Mar 2024, 23:52
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
Hi Skip - I'm inclined to agree, although there is still a certain cache in the BA name which might attract a few...

We all know that 'profitable' is a moveable feast depending on how costs and revenue are allocated across a network, but what's the rationale for your "none of it ever made any real money" comment (apart from none of them are operating)?
They may have made money in parts in the 80s and 90s regionally but as a whole, the non LHR operation was a feeder for long haul and a "social service" on behalf of the flag carrier. You could see there had been no business case for CAPEX when the One Elevens staggered on for so long flying 99 seats vs. the competition's 115 seat B737-200s then 127 seat B737-300s and 147 seat B737-400s by the early 1990s. Hand me down B737-200s ex LHR just kept them uncompetitive. Putting new A319s into BHX after Ryanair went low cost and easyJet got into Europe was too little too late. They could price gouge out of a dominant LHR but were slaughtered in the regions where they market was (sensibly) more price sensitive. Flying One Elevens or B732s on BHX/MAN-xyz relying on feed from GLA/EDI/ABZ/BFS wasn't tenable beyond the mid 90s, if indeed it ever made money. That's before we get to BA EXPRESS, franchising and the incoherent network planning that came with it. I love BA to bits but never seen them consistently win outside of London in nearly four decades of flying.

Look at the relative competitive landscape and show me a winning non London niche, cos I can't for the life of me see it. Even LGW is doing the BA REGIONAL thing from the mid 90s of a stand alone profit centre flying hand me down mainline or second hand aircraft while everyone else in market buys more efficient new builds. Even IAG's Vueling and Iberia Express have new NEOs, the fact BA EUROFLYER don't, suggests to me the Finance team basically said the business case to ask IAG for new aircraft was too weak.

I would however, love to be wrong on this.
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Old 12th Mar 2024, 00:08
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The only routes I could see having a chance from MAN would be to cater for the 'Cheshire Set' ski routes in winter and the MŠlaga and Greece summer breaks. As has been said, all adequately covered by the low costs. Is there a market for those that, how shall I put this, would rather not sit with the Ryanair rif raf?
I really don't know. 😁
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Old 12th Mar 2024, 07:02
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Originally Posted by TURIN
The only routes I could see having a chance from MAN would be to cater for the 'Cheshire Set' ski routes in winter and the MŠlaga and Greece summer breaks. As has been said, all adequately covered by the low costs. Is there a market for those that, how shall I put this, would rather not sit with the Ryanair rif raf?
I really don't know. 😁
They briefly tried FAO during Covid with very high Club class loads until new convenient Covid variants were made up and that put an end to that little experiment.
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Old 12th Mar 2024, 08:53
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
the fact BA EUROFLYER don't, suggests to me the Finance team basically said the business case to ask IAG for new aircraft was too weak.

I would however, love to be wrong on this.
The notion that Euroflyer canít support new aircraft is incorrect. Itís simply cheaper to fly the NEO from Heathrow.
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Old 12th Mar 2024, 10:12
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Nothing wrong with old airframes in the right place- just look at Jet2 flying 733s ex LBA - right now.

I have a friend who still flies BA over EasyJet or Ryan- she can't be the only one.

MAN-AMS,BCN,PRG,MAD, Nice, Madeira, TLV (when things calm down) plus Greece, Spain and Italy and bit of Turkey in summer and Ski and some Canaries winter. for starters. Need some tie in to OTAs and tour operators.

EDI (not GLA) is a bit more difficult but broadly similar.

I'm sure I will get shot down.



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Old 12th Mar 2024, 10:53
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Originally Posted by 22/04
Nothing wrong with old airframes in the right place- just look at Jet2 flying 733s ex LBA - right now.

I have a friend who still flies BA over EasyJet or Ryan- she can't be the only one.

MAN-AMS,BCN,PRG,MAD, Nice, Madeira, TLV (when things calm down) plus Greece, Spain and Italy and bit of Turkey in summer and Ski and some Canaries winter. for starters. Need some tie in to OTAs and tour operators.

EDI (not GLA) is a bit more difficult but broadly similar.

I'm sure I will get shot down.
I wouldn't worry about being 'shot down'. I happens to me all the time on here!
It's fine, as long as you don't say something or suggest something positive about Gatwick or a development at BA.
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Old 12th Mar 2024, 11:09
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There is still a huge gap at MAN as a result of the demise of TCX and MON, there are thousands of seat missing monthly that no other operator has fully made up for, seat only sales are pretty much confined to FR and EZY, to many destinations, J2 and TUI are not interested in seat only sales preferring to concentrate on the IT market.

LGW has in the IAG family BAEF, Vueling etc, BAEF or Vueling would bring much needed capacity to MAN.
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Old 12th Mar 2024, 11:14
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Vuelling and Iberia Express already operate through MAN. Only a few flights a week to BCN and MAD but it's there.
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Old 12th Mar 2024, 11:27
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Correct but both operate to MAN, I'm talking about establishing a proper base at MAN, with a serious choice of routes.
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Old 12th Mar 2024, 11:53
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Originally Posted by laviation
The notion that Euroflyer can’t support new aircraft is incorrect. It’s simply cheaper to fly the NEO from Heathrow.
No, that's not what I said. By comparison, easyJet have a LGW based fleet of NEOs. WizzUK, likewise. What I said was BA's finance team apparently cannot see an ROI on going to IAG to ask for new NEOs for Euroflyer as the business case isn't strong enough. Could be wrong, but with so many aircraft on order.....
BA are the oddballs in that they don't fly new builds in market, even Jet2 bought a new fleet of B73Hs and are taking A321Ns as we speak. If LGW did as well for BA as we'd all like to hope, even me, there would be a Club Suite refresh plan and new A32Ns / Maxes coming. Neither is happening. It's not a LGW problem, it's an inability of BA to make LGW work well enough for them on it's own merits, like everything else, LHR comes first as that seems to be where consistent money is made for BA, others do way better. Follow the money?
Originally Posted by Doors to...
J2 and TUI are not interested in seat only sales preferring to concentrate on the IT market.
Jet2 do loads of seat only, it's why half the fleet is in grey and red, I flew on one last weekend on a seat only basis on a short break to Spain.
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Old 12th Mar 2024, 12:52
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
No, that's not what I said. By comparison, easyJet have a LGW based fleet of NEOs. WizzUK, likewise. What I said was BA's finance team apparently cannot see an ROI on going to IAG to ask for new NEOs for Euroflyer as the business case isn't strong enough. Could be wrong, but with so many aircraft on order.....
BA are the oddballs in that they don't fly new builds in market, even Jet2 bought a new fleet of B73Hs and are taking A321Ns as we speak. If LGW did as well for BA as we'd all like to hope, even me, there would be a Club Suite refresh plan and new A32Ns / Maxes coming. Neither is happening. It's not a LGW problem, it's an inability of BA to make LGW work well enough for them on it's own merits, like everything else, LHR comes first as that seems to be where consistent money is made for BA, others do way better. Follow the money?

Jet2 do loads of seat only, it's why half the fleet is in grey and red, I flew on one last weekend on a seat only basis on a short break to Spain.
I share your frustration regarding BA at Gatwick. I totally agree that with more investment they could do well. However, as long as Heathrow dominates their planning there will be little change unfortunately. Their dominance at Heathrow also protects them somewhat.
Perhaps as Heathrow becomes even more constrained, and Gatwick does bring its Northern runway into routine operation, they will have to look at things again. At recent results meetings it has been said that they are watching developments at Gatwick very closely. They are also keen to have all their leased out slots at Gatwick returned to them by summer 2025.
The increasing number of full service airlines beginning services from Gatwick is also an interesting development and I am sure BA are keeping an eye too.
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Old 12th Mar 2024, 13:52
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The increasing number of full service airlines beginning services from Gatwick is also an interesting development and I am sure BA are keeping an eye too.
Which of the new entrants at LGW would BA be most concerned about?
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