Isle of Man-3
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virginblue
Sorry but its not endless moaning this is a forum for outlining opinions and views! I agree that the world has moved on from those regional days but I don't agree that its acceptable to not have a twice daily service from an island to the capital London. The long term economic effects will be serious if something is not done to correct it.
I have outlined my view have one Easyjet flight a day to LGW ( 156 seat rotation) and two smaller flights with another airline ( 50 seat rotation) to either LCY or LHR. There would then be 256 seats a day each way compared to 462 pre covid so a significant reduction but still a great service for the Isle of Man. This would likely fulfil the needs of the business community, day traveller and casual flyer and I suspect meet the demand requirement fairly well.
Sorry but its not endless moaning this is a forum for outlining opinions and views! I agree that the world has moved on from those regional days but I don't agree that its acceptable to not have a twice daily service from an island to the capital London. The long term economic effects will be serious if something is not done to correct it.
I have outlined my view have one Easyjet flight a day to LGW ( 156 seat rotation) and two smaller flights with another airline ( 50 seat rotation) to either LCY or LHR. There would then be 256 seats a day each way compared to 462 pre covid so a significant reduction but still a great service for the Isle of Man. This would likely fulfil the needs of the business community, day traveller and casual flyer and I suspect meet the demand requirement fairly well.
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Unless you want to turn the IoM into a communist state, you (or the IoMG) cannot dictate what airlines serve what airport with what type of aircraft with what kind of fares. It really is as simple as that.
Plus the fact that there are hardly any airlines left that could offer the regional-style service you hope for. BACF, for starters, has disposed of its small 50/70 seater fleet that was used to serve the IoM. They are now concentrating on 100 seat E190s. Flybe - gone. Stobart Air - gone. flybmi - gone. Just look at the recent problems finding someone to serve the heavily subsidized Dublin/Donegal route - they had to haul in a Swedish operator as there is literally almost nobody left with 50 seat aircraft in the UK or Ireland other than Loganair and Eastern.
Plus the fact that there are hardly any airlines left that could offer the regional-style service you hope for. BACF, for starters, has disposed of its small 50/70 seater fleet that was used to serve the IoM. They are now concentrating on 100 seat E190s. Flybe - gone. Stobart Air - gone. flybmi - gone. Just look at the recent problems finding someone to serve the heavily subsidized Dublin/Donegal route - they had to haul in a Swedish operator as there is literally almost nobody left with 50 seat aircraft in the UK or Ireland other than Loganair and Eastern.
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How confident are you that if tomorrow, easyJet pulled off the London route, that another carrier would fly the service and fly it with a twice daily service you so desire?
In other words, be careful what you wish for because in the current climate you could lose your London flight all together.
In other words, be careful what you wish for because in the current climate you could lose your London flight all together.
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Not sure if the good people from the Bailiwick of Guernsey want to see their taxpayer's money at work on the Isle of Man so that IOMX can have his twice-daily flight back... (even if, I fear that the flight would still end up at LGW and not LCY - Aurigny sees no point in hauling the Guernsey folks to LCY and traditionally serves LGW).
Generally speaking, Aurigny and Blue Islands are tiny airlines with a handful of aircraft each. While Blue Islands may be tempted to try stuff like SOU-MAN, I don't see them wasting their limited resources on routes like IOM-LCY, to be honest.
Generally speaking, Aurigny and Blue Islands are tiny airlines with a handful of aircraft each. While Blue Islands may be tempted to try stuff like SOU-MAN, I don't see them wasting their limited resources on routes like IOM-LCY, to be honest.
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lfc84
Its good to know you take such a serious matter for the island so seriously! I know you are a big fan of Easyjet and you have the service you want and need I am genuinely pleased for you!
Its good to know you take such a serious matter for the island so seriously! I know you are a big fan of Easyjet and you have the service you want and need I am genuinely pleased for you!
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virginblue
No I don't want a communist state what a silly and stupid comment to make. I am just looking for everyone involved to arrive at a sensible compromise that meets the needs of everyone. Unlike you I have proposed a solution which would work for everyone perhaps you can lay out what your vision is?
And I am fully conversant with the airline landscape thankyou and would suggest that's why we should be trying to work with rather than against Loganair! I get that you are happy with Easyjet like lfc84 I am genuinely pleased there is something that meets your needs perhaps you should consider other people have other needs !
No I don't want a communist state what a silly and stupid comment to make. I am just looking for everyone involved to arrive at a sensible compromise that meets the needs of everyone. Unlike you I have proposed a solution which would work for everyone perhaps you can lay out what your vision is?
And I am fully conversant with the airline landscape thankyou and would suggest that's why we should be trying to work with rather than against Loganair! I get that you are happy with Easyjet like lfc84 I am genuinely pleased there is something that meets your needs perhaps you should consider other people have other needs !
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There is no point in me making suggestions as the free market will make the decisions, not you and not me.
If enough people like you are indeed requiring same day returns and if (a very big "if" here...) they are willing to pay some serious money for those tickets that makes the operation viable, there will be airlines willing to offer services. History, however, suggest that the limited demand requires fares that not enough punters are willing to pay.
But as you seem to be convinced that there is literally big money lying on the runway at IOM that airlines are simply too stupid to pick up, you could, for example, give Sun Air of Denmark of MHS Aviation of Germany a call. They operate 30 seaters in niche markets where serious money is paid for tickets (expect fares north of 200 GBP one-way).
PS: What you describe as a "sensible compromise" pretty much sounds like an unlawful collusion in violation of antitrust law as you apparently want two competitors to agree to not effectively compete.
If enough people like you are indeed requiring same day returns and if (a very big "if" here...) they are willing to pay some serious money for those tickets that makes the operation viable, there will be airlines willing to offer services. History, however, suggest that the limited demand requires fares that not enough punters are willing to pay.
But as you seem to be convinced that there is literally big money lying on the runway at IOM that airlines are simply too stupid to pick up, you could, for example, give Sun Air of Denmark of MHS Aviation of Germany a call. They operate 30 seaters in niche markets where serious money is paid for tickets (expect fares north of 200 GBP one-way).
PS: What you describe as a "sensible compromise" pretty much sounds like an unlawful collusion in violation of antitrust law as you apparently want two competitors to agree to not effectively compete.
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virginblue
I think it is crackers to believe that an island which requires strategic links to operate and function effectively would not have a broad aviation framework and plan. I maintain that around 256 seats each way would be the right level of supply for the London market certainly in the short term. And I am not advocating collusion but simple sensible and rationale choice for customers that would easily float out of the free market if thought through carefully by the IOMG in a strategic manner. Longer term others and I have indicated that proper investment in tourism and industry is what is needed to stimulate demand. Like I said I have no idea what your customer needs are but I would suggest they are provided for I am pleased you have an outcome that meets your requirements. However I would suggest there are a lot of people who require a more frequent service to London than one a day Easyjet.
And back to competition I have also indicated that Easyjet commercial behaviour of setting prices low only to increase them when all other competition is gone which at least appears to be the case is unfair- enough said!
I think it is crackers to believe that an island which requires strategic links to operate and function effectively would not have a broad aviation framework and plan. I maintain that around 256 seats each way would be the right level of supply for the London market certainly in the short term. And I am not advocating collusion but simple sensible and rationale choice for customers that would easily float out of the free market if thought through carefully by the IOMG in a strategic manner. Longer term others and I have indicated that proper investment in tourism and industry is what is needed to stimulate demand. Like I said I have no idea what your customer needs are but I would suggest they are provided for I am pleased you have an outcome that meets your requirements. However I would suggest there are a lot of people who require a more frequent service to London than one a day Easyjet.
And back to competition I have also indicated that Easyjet commercial behaviour of setting prices low only to increase them when all other competition is gone which at least appears to be the case is unfair- enough said!
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asyjet.
It’s basic supply and demand. Multiple airlines fighting over a few low paying pax means tickets will be cheap. With only EasyJet the prices will rise as the cheap tickets sell first. This perfect set up you envisage isn’t going to happen. Everyone has pointed out the flaws but you just call us EasyJet fans.
If this demand is there, get in touch with airlines. As mentioned, someone like Sun Air but they are not going to do it for £150 return. They operate Billund-LCY (or did until COVID) at around £350 each way. You need a VLM type carrier who operated reasonable prices and business schedules but they are gone. Eastern are not interested (and are usually more expensive) and Loganair have said they want a subsidy. It’s just not an attractive market and the numbers are too small for anyone to want to create a base there without some financial support.
It’s basic supply and demand. Multiple airlines fighting over a few low paying pax means tickets will be cheap. With only EasyJet the prices will rise as the cheap tickets sell first. This perfect set up you envisage isn’t going to happen. Everyone has pointed out the flaws but you just call us EasyJet fans.
If this demand is there, get in touch with airlines. As mentioned, someone like Sun Air but they are not going to do it for £150 return. They operate Billund-LCY (or did until COVID) at around £350 each way. You need a VLM type carrier who operated reasonable prices and business schedules but they are gone. Eastern are not interested (and are usually more expensive) and Loganair have said they want a subsidy. It’s just not an attractive market and the numbers are too small for anyone to want to create a base there without some financial support.
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Well I have outlined a position and provided some data and logic to my thinking. I am sorry but in my opinion some of you do come across as Easyjet fans certain posters even publish charts and act as if they are in Easyjet marketing! There is nothing wrong with that if you like what they do for you and the service they provide then that's good.
But unless I am wrong this is a forum for sharing views and opinions and as long as that is the case I will continue to share my views and opinions just as I respect that you do too.
But unless I am wrong this is a forum for sharing views and opinions and as long as that is the case I will continue to share my views and opinions just as I respect that you do too.
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The issue here is the IOM's strategy for connectivity twofold; needs of the resident and the need for inbound tourism.
There has been a decline in inbound tourism since the 1990's, mainly due to the growth of cheap flights to the sun belt by budget airlines. These budget airlines also offer the prize of volume inbound tourism to the island. However, they also have a hugely detrimental impact on any small regional carrier who is trying to sustain a viable operation from the island who also doesn't enjoy the competitive advantage of a low cost base.
easyJet is a commercial operation and has competing opportunities and IOM is probably way down the list. Hence they'll find frequency attractive on Fri and Sun in particular and not necessarily when the business traveller may require it etc.
The island needs an airline akin to Manx Airlines who were right sized for the IOM. They had flexible
seasonal scheduling to take advantage of inbound tourism while serving the core markets of LON, LPL, MAN, BHX and DUB. The other core routes of BHD, GLA and EDI were served at different times by them but often by others. Manx also offered a proportion of value for money fares.
The island needs to find a way to attract an airline to build a schedule for the islander with appropriate sized aircraft at appropriate timings. Mechanisms needs to be put in place to make this sustainable for said niche operator.
Is the solution to put into place discounts for islanders to fly, something like Aer Arann Islands do in Ireland? Making the discount available on the airline who comprehensively serves the IOM, business timings etc?
The question of how to (partially) fund cost for this is relevant. Perhaps consider a small departure fee from the airport that everybody pays and is used to fund the discounts for the islanders only? Maybe £5 each. Just a suggestion. Other mechanisms could be considered.
Make seasonal and off peak flying attractive for easyJet which would ostensibly serve the inbound tourist. Either way in my opinion, there needs to be a limit to the scale of low cost flying and a certain degree of protection needs to be provided for the airline who offers the business schedule. Otherwise, the IOM won't serve neither the needs of the resident nor business traveller adequately and lead to an over reliance on the likes of easyJet.
I'd actually like to work on such a strategy. Equally, I'd like to know what metrics or KPIs exist that show the impact of tourism to the island as a consequence of easyJet's service?
There has been a decline in inbound tourism since the 1990's, mainly due to the growth of cheap flights to the sun belt by budget airlines. These budget airlines also offer the prize of volume inbound tourism to the island. However, they also have a hugely detrimental impact on any small regional carrier who is trying to sustain a viable operation from the island who also doesn't enjoy the competitive advantage of a low cost base.
easyJet is a commercial operation and has competing opportunities and IOM is probably way down the list. Hence they'll find frequency attractive on Fri and Sun in particular and not necessarily when the business traveller may require it etc.
The island needs an airline akin to Manx Airlines who were right sized for the IOM. They had flexible
seasonal scheduling to take advantage of inbound tourism while serving the core markets of LON, LPL, MAN, BHX and DUB. The other core routes of BHD, GLA and EDI were served at different times by them but often by others. Manx also offered a proportion of value for money fares.
The island needs to find a way to attract an airline to build a schedule for the islander with appropriate sized aircraft at appropriate timings. Mechanisms needs to be put in place to make this sustainable for said niche operator.
Is the solution to put into place discounts for islanders to fly, something like Aer Arann Islands do in Ireland? Making the discount available on the airline who comprehensively serves the IOM, business timings etc?
The question of how to (partially) fund cost for this is relevant. Perhaps consider a small departure fee from the airport that everybody pays and is used to fund the discounts for the islanders only? Maybe £5 each. Just a suggestion. Other mechanisms could be considered.
Make seasonal and off peak flying attractive for easyJet which would ostensibly serve the inbound tourist. Either way in my opinion, there needs to be a limit to the scale of low cost flying and a certain degree of protection needs to be provided for the airline who offers the business schedule. Otherwise, the IOM won't serve neither the needs of the resident nor business traveller adequately and lead to an over reliance on the likes of easyJet.
I'd actually like to work on such a strategy. Equally, I'd like to know what metrics or KPIs exist that show the impact of tourism to the island as a consequence of easyJet's service?
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EI-BUD
The problem is that Manx Airlines charged fares that were considered reasonable or, in the case of farecracker offerings, even cheap back in the day. Exampes have been quoted in this thread. Nowadays, the same fares, adjusted for inflation, would be considered by many as outrageously expensive. Thanks to the LCC boom, there is an expectation that pretty much any airline can (must) haul you around for 100 GBP or less. With such fares, Manx Airlines would not have lasted a year.
The problem is that Manx Airlines charged fares that were considered reasonable or, in the case of farecracker offerings, even cheap back in the day. Exampes have been quoted in this thread. Nowadays, the same fares, adjusted for inflation, would be considered by many as outrageously expensive. Thanks to the LCC boom, there is an expectation that pretty much any airline can (must) haul you around for 100 GBP or less. With such fares, Manx Airlines would not have lasted a year.
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It's fascinating to read the perspectives and counter-perspectives of this debate, which I suspect could equally apply in Jersey and Guernsey and many other islands dependent upon air links.
There's one bit here which to me has been left unsaid so far. Influencing the outcome doesn't require the IOM to become an outpost of communism or other radical changes as have been suggested! As with many regional airports, the IOM fees are very expensive. A quick look shows a £24.50 per departing passenger charge plus £1.70 for PRM and security. Add £13 APD (for now, at least) and you're at £37.50 per passenger. If you decide to include them, there is a landing and a departure fee of £21.60 per tonne of MTOW so on a completely full A320 at 73.5 tonnes, that's another £8 per passenger.
The point I am getting to is this - for easyJet to sell at £24.99 on the likes of IOM-LPL, they must be on a significant negotiated deal versus those published fees. If IOM - or anywhere else - doesn't want them to fly a route, surely they just don't give them a deal on charges? It's surely a more effective way of controlling the outcome, if that is what you decide you need to do?
There's one bit here which to me has been left unsaid so far. Influencing the outcome doesn't require the IOM to become an outpost of communism or other radical changes as have been suggested! As with many regional airports, the IOM fees are very expensive. A quick look shows a £24.50 per departing passenger charge plus £1.70 for PRM and security. Add £13 APD (for now, at least) and you're at £37.50 per passenger. If you decide to include them, there is a landing and a departure fee of £21.60 per tonne of MTOW so on a completely full A320 at 73.5 tonnes, that's another £8 per passenger.
The point I am getting to is this - for easyJet to sell at £24.99 on the likes of IOM-LPL, they must be on a significant negotiated deal versus those published fees. If IOM - or anywhere else - doesn't want them to fly a route, surely they just don't give them a deal on charges? It's surely a more effective way of controlling the outcome, if that is what you decide you need to do?
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or they sell some below cost to get passengers in, partly in the hope of selling add ons and partly for more demand to follow. Ryanair has often sold flights for £1 or even 1p (I flew STN-BRE-STN for a grand total of £0.02.)
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The IOM need not look any further than Jersey.
Loads of airlines. Loads of destinations. Loads of competition. Great marketing for inbound tourism. An economy that has people at its core who will travel
People in IOM were told again and again and again.... with respect to London City: use it or lose it
Loads of airlines. Loads of destinations. Loads of competition. Great marketing for inbound tourism. An economy that has people at its core who will travel
People in IOM were told again and again and again.... with respect to London City: use it or lose it
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I think you might be rather overstating Jersey for this year at least - I've heard from a few in industry that it is really not doing well and the extra flights and seats this year are bombing badly.