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Isle of Man-3

Old 10th Aug 2021, 20:05
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The cost surely has nothing to do specifically with tourists per se although I agree the IOMG should be encouraging more tourists to the island that is part of the problem. Its more about the airline making the route pay and it seems on that route you can get a return ticket on a BA flight to LHR for around £120 return.
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Old 10th Aug 2021, 20:19
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I was talking about LPL/MAN combined. Both cities are culturally close to the island, more so Liverpool.
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Old 10th Aug 2021, 20:21
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IOMX

Yes but we have no idea how many tickets at that price, how many are being sold as Club Europe at a lot higher price etc which cross subsidises etc. A random quote is no indication of what fare is required to make a route pay. Economy might be £120 return because half the plane goes as Club Europe at £600 return. (Just an example).
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Old 10th Aug 2021, 20:35
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businessair75

But don't forget that London has to serve the whole of the South East including across to Bristol and the West Country. I know there is an Easyjet service to Bristol but that is only twice a week. I agree that the North west is culturally connected to the Isle of Man but its wrong to imply the London market is not sizeable. Its certainly ludicrous to believe one flight a day into LGW at random times offers core connectivity into such an important market.
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Old 10th Aug 2021, 20:42
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BA318

Yes you are right but I suspect a lot of fares on the BA /LHR Jersey service are no more than £180- £200 return. And there are multiple airlines and flights going in there. I know the population of Jersey is larger than the IOM but its not that much larger i think circa 108,000 in Jersey and circa 85000 in IOM. I think the IOMG should be looking to see what Jersey are doing to encourage more travellers and trying to replicate it in some way a point several posters have rightly made.
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Old 10th Aug 2021, 21:03
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Point taken but MAN, particularly, naturally serves much of Northern England as well as parts of the Midlands and North Wales. LPL much less so.
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Old 11th Aug 2021, 05:28
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Originally Posted by IOMX
. .........I think the IOMG should be looking..... to encourage more travellers ..............
Most people think that too - especially almost all the participants and readers of this forum. You have been a model of clarity and tenaciousness in opening this most important topic of debate up so exceptionally well. We ought to thank you very much for that.

I would like to add that the sweeping Green Agendas will be bound to undermine 'encouraging more travellers'. Indeed, they already have. Then there is the issue of Government funding. There is huge damage to the island's coffers from Covid19 and there is still plenty more to come - and for the long-term as well. Taken together, these factors alone will most likely prevent any significant and necessarily enduring grants and subsidies for a London City or Heathrow route beyond the usual soft ones such as concessions on airport charges.

Regarding London connectivity, it looks very poor just now as we emerge from just under 16 months of restrictions. Frequencies and capacity will, as ever, continue to improve as and when the demand is there.

As you say, and virtually everyone agrees with you, an LCY or LHR route would be premium priced if it is to work. And it has not worked for long with any one airline in the past since the demise of Manx Airlines which was sold to BA and the subsequent inevitable loss of the hugely coveted LHR slots.

The added challenge now is that the most respected analysts foresee a permanent reduction of 40% to 50% in business travel.

I do not see Jersey as a relevant benchmark for most things - it is a very different economy and geo-location with an importantly 27% larger and more affluent population. However, there is one thing that the IOM could quickly and easily copy and that is to drop APD. At a stroke that would boost pax demand and airline profitability so it would help with increasing and under-pinning the IOM's air routes and frequencies as we have seen in the Channel Islands, Belfast and Inverness.

But there is no Magic Money Tree and APD brings in a lot of money - no small matter when financially times are looking extremely tough into the indefinite future. And there is also another important pointer to what is the likely political will of the new House of Keys next month - it is certain to have many more strong Green Agenda fans amongst its ministers and other legislators.

The LGW route with all the disadvantages that you and others have highlighted so very well, may be the only London one for a long time ahead although I also expect that easyJet will most likely consider trying to revive their previous Luton route at some point. I do not have any love for easyJet but I do respect them and I do appreciate what they offer to the majority of people - i.e. those who are not price insensitive Business Travellers. Those who dislike them should ask themselves what routes would even exist without them let alone the capacity, days of operation, frequencies and prices on the IOM-Liverpool, Bristol, Belfast, Manchester etc routes.

It is not as if Loganair have covered themselves in glory during the past 16 months of taking multi millions of the taxpayers' money here. And their handling of refunds was, and to an extent still remains, vile. And let us not forget either that if Loganair could make LHR or LCY work financially (both worked fine operationally) then they would be doing so - and they will do so when and if sufficient demand exits for a profit.

I apologise for making such a negative 'half empty glass" assessment. I have used the LCY route countless times for both business and leisure purposes throughout all the years that it existed and there is no-one who can outbid me in enthusiasm for an LCY or LHR route.

Last edited by milleriom; 11th Aug 2021 at 10:30. Reason: Typos
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Old 11th Aug 2021, 07:41
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Originally Posted by businessair75
Iím not bashing the small operators but by the same token, I donít see easyJet doing anything wrong. I see the free market as just that.
What you forget is that small operators have had to beg LCY for slots because LCY said years ago they didn't want any aircraft smaller than 70 seats. BA could get away with it because they basically control LCY. The same thing happened at LGW and caused Flybe to leave (at a convenient time, I note). You might recall that LCY went out of their way to make IOM flights as uncomfortable as possible shunting flights to the far end of the airport with consequent bus rides and the attendant additional time all that nonsense took. With a small island population, many of whom see flying into LCY as "too posh", LCY services were already running an uphill battle. That still does not help the business traveller who needs to be in London early mornings to conduct a day's business.
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Old 11th Aug 2021, 08:17
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I don't think we can blame LCY and underhand tactics for the failure of the route. Swiss aircraft are always parked far out requiring a bus ride due to the size of the aircraft and they do quite well. Quite simply, the demand for the flights with the economics didn't work. Maybe they will for another operator but I'm pessimistic.
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Old 11th Aug 2021, 08:38
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What you forget is that LCY set their landing fees, intentionally making the economics of utilising small aircraft unappealing. So that is one more disadvantage for IOM flights going straight to profitability of flights.
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Old 11th Aug 2021, 09:01
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But they're allowed to set their landing fees whatever they want them to be. I'm not so sure they would be doing that just now so maybe there is an opportunity for a new operator?

I think, unfortunately, the economics of LCY-IOM flights, similarly to Jersey and Guernsey flights in non pandemic times, just don't work and airlines think they can make more money elsewhere.
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Old 11th Aug 2021, 10:11
  #292 (permalink)  
 
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businessair75

Actually I don't believe that is quite true, Liverpool attracts passengers from all those areas. I know this from personal experience chatting to other passengers.
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Old 11th Aug 2021, 11:03
  #293 (permalink)  
 
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Of course they do but not to such a large extent.
North Wales; you get folk but by the time you cross the Mersey you can be almost in Manchester. The wider North West; you get people using LPL but less so than MAN and you don’t get too many coming from Yorkshire, parts of the Midlands which are very much a part of MAN’s catchment area.

MAN also regularly attracts passengers from the North East and, in Scottish holidays, from Scotland too. That just doesn’t happen at LPL in any noteworthy numbers.
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Old 11th Aug 2021, 11:08
  #294 (permalink)  
 
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TFW rail now operate via the Haton Curve - Liverpool South Parkway to Chester for connections to beyond.
Makes it easier for North Wales
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/ser...-11#allox_id=0
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Old 11th Aug 2021, 12:03
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So, bye bye to Heathrow again after only a few months and well over two decades after the last time the IOM-LHR route stopped. The last Loganair rotation was last night and the Embraer jet airframe that they were using has already gone off to greener pastures.

This morning, the only local based aircraft ''died'' which meant that the Loganair ATR lifeline "Patient Transfer Flight" to Liverpool (for which the IOM Government pays millions) was grounded for 2 hours.

Loganair are clearly not a panacea - certainly not the answer for many of the IOM residents' hopes. In the real world we now have to live in, we are lucky to have the easyJet routes, capacity and frequencies. I just looked at random dates to LGW in November and December and I can buy lots and lots of very suitable (for me that usually means a morning out and an evening back) return flights with a small cabin bag only, for just £66 and in some cases as low as £56. Most, but not all, business travellers who still wish to fly out and in on business trips will not like the lack of a day trip option nor the location of Gatwick but until there are enough of them to support a LHR or LCY double daily service there will not be one. Meantime, the bulk of the people will continue to use the easyJet services in large numbers and consider them amazingly quick, comfy and cheap.

Last edited by milleriom; 11th Aug 2021 at 12:49.
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Old 11th Aug 2021, 12:15
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LGW actually is fast into central London on the Gatwick express, and as I've previously said the demand for business travel just isn't there like it was currently, and may never be back like it was. For good or for bad Microsoft Teams and Zoom are the way now

One to watch for the future may be Emerald Airlines/EIR. Not totally inconceivable they may offer something for the London market.
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Old 11th Aug 2021, 12:34
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Maybe so but many thousands of people will look to them to restore a Dublin-IOM-Dublin service first. And to be attractive to business - and to enough other premium paying locals - an IOM - LCY / LHR service would need an early rotation out and a late one back which needs an aircraft based here which presents its own extra obstacles to an Emerald......................
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Old 11th Aug 2021, 14:32
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I Would say possibly Emerald Airlines might possibly run flights as, BA Regional in the future since they will have an UK AOC.

Last edited by allan1987; 11th Aug 2021 at 14:42.
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Old 11th Aug 2021, 16:35
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Well the intention is to base 5 a/c at BHD as EIR so they should have it already
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Old 17th Aug 2021, 21:51
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IOMX

Your misconception is that there were too many flights to LGW in the past to make LCY/LHR work. In reality, there were too many punters choosing LGW over LCY to make LCY work, not too many flighs to LGW. If LCY was as popular and sought-after as you want us to believe, it would have thrived at the expense of LGW. The fact that it did not shows us that there are simply not enough passengers willing to pay a premium to fly to LCY or LHR. What you actually expect is government intervention by dictating airlines what routes and frequencies they can serve.

M-JCS

It does not stop airlines like Sun Air operating from LCY with 30seaters. It does, however, stop operating airlines with small aircraft offering return flights for 150-200 GBP (at least without subsidies) - which apparently some here regard as the upper limit for a ticket price from IOM.
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