Isle of Man-3
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Not really sure what your point is. Apparently BA did not make any money by getting you to LCY for 150 GBP and throwing in seating, bags etc. for free. Otherwise they would still be around, raking in profits. If all the IoM can sustain is a London service by easyJet, it certainly is not easyJet's fault.
As we are just at it, British Airways served IOM-LGW for many years when there was no LHR service at all and LCY was served by the likes of VLM and Euromanx.So not really sure what the issue with LGW is. It used to be the island's "flagship" route for quite some time after it lost, like many other UK destinations, its LHR service.
As we are just at it, British Airways served IOM-LGW for many years when there was no LHR service at all and LCY was served by the likes of VLM and Euromanx.So not really sure what the issue with LGW is. It used to be the island's "flagship" route for quite some time after it lost, like many other UK destinations, its LHR service.
How many combinations of London destinations and airlines have been covered in this thread? How many are left? Bit of a clue there - IOM-LON is not a goldmine. As has been mentioned before (!), you get what you pay for, not what you think you deserve.
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virginblue
Seems it all needs explaining a bit more . When BA were operating out of LCY they were up against EasyJet with two flights going into Gatwick. With two flights a day albeit at bad times ( leaving the island at 9.55am and 9.05pm ) EasyJet had over 300 seats in each direction and were running fares at around £25 each way which is not sustainable ( proven by their behaviour when they are the only ones left ) I would argue that’s unfair competition from EasyJet as all they are doing is dropping in an extra leg as a filler to keep the plane flying . Do you really think the island is of real interest to them if it was they would overnight a plane here something they have never ever done and will probably never ever do .
This caused the LCY to have lower load factors . Had EasyJet offered one rotation and fares around a more sustainable level of say £80 then BA LcY would have worked .
And sorry Gatwick has never been a flagship airport it’s more for short haul holiday flights . Heathrow and to some extent LCY are the flagship airports .
Seems it all needs explaining a bit more . When BA were operating out of LCY they were up against EasyJet with two flights going into Gatwick. With two flights a day albeit at bad times ( leaving the island at 9.55am and 9.05pm ) EasyJet had over 300 seats in each direction and were running fares at around £25 each way which is not sustainable ( proven by their behaviour when they are the only ones left ) I would argue that’s unfair competition from EasyJet as all they are doing is dropping in an extra leg as a filler to keep the plane flying . Do you really think the island is of real interest to them if it was they would overnight a plane here something they have never ever done and will probably never ever do .
This caused the LCY to have lower load factors . Had EasyJet offered one rotation and fares around a more sustainable level of say £80 then BA LcY would have worked .
And sorry Gatwick has never been a flagship airport it’s more for short haul holiday flights . Heathrow and to some extent LCY are the flagship airports .
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I’m sorry but if BA couldn’t make IOM-LCY with the USP and selling point that London City has, then it is not easyJet that is the problem.
Indeed, if BA can’t make IOM-LCY work with the premium that some LCY flights can command, then the fares on IOM-LON were already depressed and probably through no fault of easyJet.
It sounds like you just dislike easyJet. There is a lot of respect for easy because inherently they are a good outfit with a good operation. Aside from J class or a silver and above status, there is very little difference between them and BA in terms of experience.
I understand your concerns about easy but recently history tells us that IOM-South East isn’t a goldmine.
There are stronger links between IOM-NW England where easy seems to co-exist with Loganair.
Indeed, if BA can’t make IOM-LCY work with the premium that some LCY flights can command, then the fares on IOM-LON were already depressed and probably through no fault of easyJet.
It sounds like you just dislike easyJet. There is a lot of respect for easy because inherently they are a good outfit with a good operation. Aside from J class or a silver and above status, there is very little difference between them and BA in terms of experience.
I understand your concerns about easy but recently history tells us that IOM-South East isn’t a goldmine.
There are stronger links between IOM-NW England where easy seems to co-exist with Loganair.
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IOMX
British Airways apparently thought otherwise. They were running BAe 146s on IOM-LGW for many years. It allowed me to do stuff like IOM-LGW-MLA. And JER and GCI have been doing okay with LGW services for many years. In normal times, it is unrealistic to expect regional air services into LHR. So it is either LCY or LGW (as apparently STN. LTN and SEN are not satisfactory).
As for easyJet's predatory pricing, if enough punters were desperate to have flights into LCY at perfect times and willing to cough up the dough to keep BA on the route, BA would still be around. Apparently that was not the case. Do you expect folks who do not mind travelling via LGW or departing at 09:55 to cross-subsidise your more exquisite travel preferences and forego a LCC offering?
To me it sounds as if your expectations are that there should be a full-service operator with a LHR route (ideally enjoying a monopoly with protection from LCCs) and still offering easyJet prices. The concept that comes somewhat close to such expectations was Euromanx, but as we all know they did not last very long...
British Airways apparently thought otherwise. They were running BAe 146s on IOM-LGW for many years. It allowed me to do stuff like IOM-LGW-MLA. And JER and GCI have been doing okay with LGW services for many years. In normal times, it is unrealistic to expect regional air services into LHR. So it is either LCY or LGW (as apparently STN. LTN and SEN are not satisfactory).
As for easyJet's predatory pricing, if enough punters were desperate to have flights into LCY at perfect times and willing to cough up the dough to keep BA on the route, BA would still be around. Apparently that was not the case. Do you expect folks who do not mind travelling via LGW or departing at 09:55 to cross-subsidise your more exquisite travel preferences and forego a LCC offering?
To me it sounds as if your expectations are that there should be a full-service operator with a LHR route (ideally enjoying a monopoly with protection from LCCs) and still offering easyJet prices. The concept that comes somewhat close to such expectations was Euromanx, but as we all know they did not last very long...
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businessair75
Sorry I completely disagree with you my points are laid out below
1) I agree Easyjet as an airline are fine and there is generally little difference with them and BA if you look at travel to Europe for example. I actually have no issue with them in that regard and I am happy to use them . But the Easyjet model is not right for the island because it is based on dropping 156 seat plane loads into a market at random and erratic times and in the case of London this on two rotations is too many.
2) Easyjet timings are not suitable for business or day returners or people living in London and the south east who come to the island regularly to visit friends and family. The end to end experience on the island short flight is very poor when compared to BA or Loganair or any other small higher frequency airline. If Easyjet are so great why dont they overnight a plane and offer early morning and early evening flights to support the island-they just wont I can tell you that.
3) It absolutely is an issue if Easyjet run fares at circa £25 and then when nobody else is left to compete they push their prices up surely you must see that not right? So yes that is a fault of theirs sorry its plainly obvious to me!
4) In normal times which hopefully will return soon there is room for an Easyjet flight ( one rotation which I have never argued against) to be supplemented by two rotations of a smaller airline ( early morning and early evening) but it seems most of you are very selfish and just want cheap fares which leaves those of us needing a more frequent service with nothing! If the IOMG had supported LHR for a little while longer the situation post covid would have improved and we would all have what we want!
Maybe a few of you posters on here should talk to a wider community I know for sure there are a lot of people who think along the same lines as me.
Sorry I completely disagree with you my points are laid out below
1) I agree Easyjet as an airline are fine and there is generally little difference with them and BA if you look at travel to Europe for example. I actually have no issue with them in that regard and I am happy to use them . But the Easyjet model is not right for the island because it is based on dropping 156 seat plane loads into a market at random and erratic times and in the case of London this on two rotations is too many.
2) Easyjet timings are not suitable for business or day returners or people living in London and the south east who come to the island regularly to visit friends and family. The end to end experience on the island short flight is very poor when compared to BA or Loganair or any other small higher frequency airline. If Easyjet are so great why dont they overnight a plane and offer early morning and early evening flights to support the island-they just wont I can tell you that.
3) It absolutely is an issue if Easyjet run fares at circa £25 and then when nobody else is left to compete they push their prices up surely you must see that not right? So yes that is a fault of theirs sorry its plainly obvious to me!
4) In normal times which hopefully will return soon there is room for an Easyjet flight ( one rotation which I have never argued against) to be supplemented by two rotations of a smaller airline ( early morning and early evening) but it seems most of you are very selfish and just want cheap fares which leaves those of us needing a more frequent service with nothing! If the IOMG had supported LHR for a little while longer the situation post covid would have improved and we would all have what we want!
Maybe a few of you posters on here should talk to a wider community I know for sure there are a lot of people who think along the same lines as me.
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Pre-covid, easyJet did nightstop some LGW based aircraft downroute. The thing is, does the IOM need it? Admittedly, with an earlier LGW-IOM, the return into London can still arrive at a respectable time.
One of the easy nightstoppers was INV and that was subsidised in some way I believe. So maybe the IOM government could step in.
A frequent service is valuable to an island such as IOM but I am a little dubious as to the widespread demand for day trips, particularly these days. It’s almost a romantic view.
One of the easy nightstoppers was INV and that was subsidised in some way I believe. So maybe the IOM government could step in.
A frequent service is valuable to an island such as IOM but I am a little dubious as to the widespread demand for day trips, particularly these days. It’s almost a romantic view.
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virginblue
Actually you are wrong and if you read some of my comments above you would understand my position. I do not expect a full service LHR route with Easyjet prices far from it. I recognise you need to pay a little more ( note I said I paid around £150 flying to/from LCY). Around or just above that level with two flights a day one early morning one early evening makes sense leaving Easyjet to offer fares of around £80 each way on a one a day LGW route. I dont think thats unreasonable at all and I suspect would work well for all parties.
businessair75
Sorry I do not agree with you at all. The clue is in the name Isle of Man- its an island and needs to be able to offer regular services take a look at any other island the size of ours serving the main capital market, they all have regular services. It also seems you fail to understand that there is a lot of financial activity which requires the finance sector having good connectivity. I know some people will say thats the role of zoom but I just don' t believe that will be the end of air travel nor do many travel/business experts. Sorry its not a romantic view of wanting to 'commute' perhaps you should do a little more research to understand it all. For example did you know 4500 passengers a month used LCY pre covid are they all romantics ?
Actually you are wrong and if you read some of my comments above you would understand my position. I do not expect a full service LHR route with Easyjet prices far from it. I recognise you need to pay a little more ( note I said I paid around £150 flying to/from LCY). Around or just above that level with two flights a day one early morning one early evening makes sense leaving Easyjet to offer fares of around £80 each way on a one a day LGW route. I dont think thats unreasonable at all and I suspect would work well for all parties.
businessair75
Sorry I do not agree with you at all. The clue is in the name Isle of Man- its an island and needs to be able to offer regular services take a look at any other island the size of ours serving the main capital market, they all have regular services. It also seems you fail to understand that there is a lot of financial activity which requires the finance sector having good connectivity. I know some people will say thats the role of zoom but I just don' t believe that will be the end of air travel nor do many travel/business experts. Sorry its not a romantic view of wanting to 'commute' perhaps you should do a little more research to understand it all. For example did you know 4500 passengers a month used LCY pre covid are they all romantics ?
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and yet there is no route to LCY so evidently those £150 return fares you keep quoting were not sustainable.
You also seem to be forgetting it’s a pandemic. Take my route LHR-ARN (Stockholm). I travelled weekly last year on the route. Pre Covid there were around 10 flights a day and times to suit everyone and I usually paid £100 return. Now it’s one flight a day on BA and one on SAS with a few cancellations as well and typical fares are more like £400 return. The market is in flux.
Pre-Covid there were millions of pax on that route per year and we’re still down to one flight a day.
You’d be best place to compare yourselves to Guernsey who outside of their own loss making state owned carrier have a flight to LCY and EDI twice a week (summer seasonal) and a Jersey link.
You also seem to be forgetting it’s a pandemic. Take my route LHR-ARN (Stockholm). I travelled weekly last year on the route. Pre Covid there were around 10 flights a day and times to suit everyone and I usually paid £100 return. Now it’s one flight a day on BA and one on SAS with a few cancellations as well and typical fares are more like £400 return. The market is in flux.
Pre-Covid there were millions of pax on that route per year and we’re still down to one flight a day.
You’d be best place to compare yourselves to Guernsey who outside of their own loss making state owned carrier have a flight to LCY and EDI twice a week (summer seasonal) and a Jersey link.
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The reason BA LCY was a challenge at times was because it did three rotations. If it was two then I suspect the picture would be somewhat different. I fully recognise its an issue with the pandemic which is why I think for strategic reasons the IOMG should have carried on supporting a little longer. Guernsey clearly recognise this and have effectively subsidised to the tune of £50m I doubt any IOM subsidies would ever get anywhere near that.
And on the subject of the pandemic ask yourself this. If we found ourselves with another lockdown and the need to fly critical workers from London and the South East which happened for most of last year and earlier this year who would operate the flights. Yes Loganair got a subsidy but do you really think Easyjet would do it subsidy or no subsidy?
And on the subject of the pandemic ask yourself this. If we found ourselves with another lockdown and the need to fly critical workers from London and the South East which happened for most of last year and earlier this year who would operate the flights. Yes Loganair got a subsidy but do you really think Easyjet would do it subsidy or no subsidy?
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2) Easyjet timings are not suitable for business or day returners or people living in London and the south east who come to the island regularly to visit friends and family. The end to end experience on the island short flight is very poor when compared to BA or Loganair or any other small higher frequency airline. If Easyjet are so great why dont they overnight a plane and offer early morning and early evening flights to support the island-they just wont I can tell you that.
4) In normal times which hopefully will return soon there is room for an Easyjet flight ( one rotation which I have never argued against) to be supplemented by two rotations of a smaller airline ( early morning and early evening) but it seems most of you are very selfish and just want cheap fares which leaves those of us needing a more frequent service with nothing!
And I really cannot believe that you expect people who are happy to use easyJet to pay significantly more for flying at times and to an airport they are not interested - effectively subsidizing you so that you can travel on your prefered route.
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virginblue
You clearly do not understand my position so lets spell it out again.
1) Of course the Easyjet model has to be right for their business I am not advocating they change it! I am making the point that a one a day randomly timed infrequent service for a capital city to island is really not right for the island.
2) Agreed I am not suggesting they overnight but by the same measure the island really needs an early morning flight to the capital so thats another reason to have two operators
3) I have no idea what % of tickets are sold at unsustainable prices. Ask lfc84 (aka Easyjet Marketing Director) they are the ones who keep going on about loads of cheap tickets !
4) I am not asking people who use Easyjet to subsidise me! I am saying Easyjet should not be undertaking predatory pricing to drive others out. Rather have a daily Easyjet flight and charge a reasonable fare say £80-£100 for those who are not bothered by timings etc and allow a smaller operator to go to a premium airport for £150-£200 for those that need a more regular service. Remember 4500 people were using LCY a month so there is the demand but instead of three rotations run it at two.
5) I have no idea whether its open skies or not I just think it needs some common sense and the IOMG to issue light direction.
It seems most on this forum either fail to understand when you live on an island you need to take a long term strategic view and offer regular connectivity to a capital city or you are part of the Easyjet marketing department! Whichever it is I fear your solution which appears to be Easyjet only will disadvantage the island.
You clearly do not understand my position so lets spell it out again.
1) Of course the Easyjet model has to be right for their business I am not advocating they change it! I am making the point that a one a day randomly timed infrequent service for a capital city to island is really not right for the island.
2) Agreed I am not suggesting they overnight but by the same measure the island really needs an early morning flight to the capital so thats another reason to have two operators
3) I have no idea what % of tickets are sold at unsustainable prices. Ask lfc84 (aka Easyjet Marketing Director) they are the ones who keep going on about loads of cheap tickets !
4) I am not asking people who use Easyjet to subsidise me! I am saying Easyjet should not be undertaking predatory pricing to drive others out. Rather have a daily Easyjet flight and charge a reasonable fare say £80-£100 for those who are not bothered by timings etc and allow a smaller operator to go to a premium airport for £150-£200 for those that need a more regular service. Remember 4500 people were using LCY a month so there is the demand but instead of three rotations run it at two.
5) I have no idea whether its open skies or not I just think it needs some common sense and the IOMG to issue light direction.
It seems most on this forum either fail to understand when you live on an island you need to take a long term strategic view and offer regular connectivity to a capital city or you are part of the Easyjet marketing department! Whichever it is I fear your solution which appears to be Easyjet only will disadvantage the island.
5) I have no idea whether its open skies or not I just think it needs some common sense and the IOMG to issue light direction.
Clearly the free market isn't delivering what you think the island needs so someone needs to intervene. Either restictive licencing or cash incentives.
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If the travel needs for the island community were indeed as pressing and the situation as desperate as you describe, the IOM government would have reacted by now, funding an Aurigny-style airline with taxpayer's money just as the States of Guernsey have done. Or at least offered financial incentives for airlines to operate the service you desire or put out a PSO tender like places such as LDY, NQY or DND have done in order to keep a London service (I am not sure if technically a PSO would be possible if there is a competing service to an airport in the same metropolitan area (and if the EU's PSO rules apply to the IOM).
None of this has happened, so apparently the IOM government is, unlike you, not to unhappy with the route network and the services provided.
None of this has happened, so apparently the IOM government is, unlike you, not to unhappy with the route network and the services provided.
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virginblue
In saying that you clearly do not know the IOM government. They are not inclined to act in any case that might prove beneficial to Island-based business. It is also not the case that they are not unhappy with the route network. In actual fact they haven't a clue. They could have taken very simple measures in the past to enhance air links, but failed, as they have a habit of doing, to do so.
Valid points have been made by all above. But the basic problem remains the same; the IOM economy is not conducive to business travel, and so the likes of easyJet thrive amongst those on the Island looking for cheap and cheerful transportation off-Island. In that regard, LGW is just fine, because it is "off" Island. But it is a very poor substitute for business travellers needing to get to and from the capital at reasonable times. This is all exacerbated by airports like LCY and LGW (who used to be under the same ownership you might recall) dis-incentivising smaller aircraft using their airports (Flybe at LGW is a case in point). My own prediction is that the IOM will continue in a downward spiral, so that business without proper air links will leave the Island, which in turn will cause further deterioration of the IOM economy and even less reason for carriers to offer business travel links. When you see companies like Apple and Google demanding that their employees return to the office, it becomes apparent that video conferencing is not going to be the substitute for business travel that some would have us believe.
In saying that you clearly do not know the IOM government. They are not inclined to act in any case that might prove beneficial to Island-based business. It is also not the case that they are not unhappy with the route network. In actual fact they haven't a clue. They could have taken very simple measures in the past to enhance air links, but failed, as they have a habit of doing, to do so.
Valid points have been made by all above. But the basic problem remains the same; the IOM economy is not conducive to business travel, and so the likes of easyJet thrive amongst those on the Island looking for cheap and cheerful transportation off-Island. In that regard, LGW is just fine, because it is "off" Island. But it is a very poor substitute for business travellers needing to get to and from the capital at reasonable times. This is all exacerbated by airports like LCY and LGW (who used to be under the same ownership you might recall) dis-incentivising smaller aircraft using their airports (Flybe at LGW is a case in point). My own prediction is that the IOM will continue in a downward spiral, so that business without proper air links will leave the Island, which in turn will cause further deterioration of the IOM economy and even less reason for carriers to offer business travel links. When you see companies like Apple and Google demanding that their employees return to the office, it becomes apparent that video conferencing is not going to be the substitute for business travel that some would have us believe.
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Totally agree with you it needs someone to take a long term strategic view of the situation . The island could have more investment more tourism and more flights a win-win for everyone if it was thought through properly . There is time yet let’s hope someone fixes it .
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All valid points. But realistically, days of 1980s/1990s style regional travel are a thing of the past. Many airports in Europe that used to have airline service and hub links have lost their links to the outside world completely. For a really small market like the IoM with very little tourism, the overall service is not too bad in the light of the developments of the past decade. One has to be realistic. There are quite a few routes that I could use at my hometown airport in the past that have disappeared with the decline of regional air services, whereas many new LCC routes to obscure places in Eastern Europe have come online that are completely useless to me. But apparently my travel preferences / needs are no longer lucrative for airlines and airports, while those of others are money-makers. Endless moaning will not stop the world from turning.
lfc84
Landing fees are only a drop in the ocean if you want an airline like easyJet to nightstop an aircraft on the island. You need to look at the costs of third-party maintenance, crew accommodation etc. etc.
lfc84
Landing fees are only a drop in the ocean if you want an airline like easyJet to nightstop an aircraft on the island. You need to look at the costs of third-party maintenance, crew accommodation etc. etc.