Loganair-2
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Remember PSO's are a top-up fund to make them viable they are NOT fully underwritten - the Twotters are owned by HIAL - and Bond family own outright most 145's - Loganair charge a management fee for the AOC and crew them - there is nothing that Loganair currently do that cannot be achieved by other carriers that have either no debt or that are not owned indirectly by UK Gov etc.
There is one airline in the UK that is owned 100% by a government-affiliated with UK PLC so no issues with route licences, types or capacity currently. Whilst I would never want anyone to lose their job - they are not a special case and without Bond family dipping in for the first 100 mill then its easier to let it fold - do a pre-pack and help as many people as they can with something not debt-laden. Twotters can go on another twotter AOC very quickly subject to CAA paperwork - interim ACMI capacity for the type instantly available in the UK - the rest is a moot point till load factors and unlock happens - you could fly BN2 islanders if need be.. After all Greenland has been doing mega sectors with their Dash 8 from Greenland to LHR and Denmark instead of the A330... so why not - needs must!
There is one airline in the UK that is owned 100% by a government-affiliated with UK PLC so no issues with route licences, types or capacity currently. Whilst I would never want anyone to lose their job - they are not a special case and without Bond family dipping in for the first 100 mill then its easier to let it fold - do a pre-pack and help as many people as they can with something not debt-laden. Twotters can go on another twotter AOC very quickly subject to CAA paperwork - interim ACMI capacity for the type instantly available in the UK - the rest is a moot point till load factors and unlock happens - you could fly BN2 islanders if need be.. After all Greenland has been doing mega sectors with their Dash 8 from Greenland to LHR and Denmark instead of the A330... so why not - needs must!
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I think a lot of people here are massively underestimating the impact losing loganair would have on the economy.
The most obvious impact will be the loss of jobs. How many people are employed by loganair and at the airports they serve? Next you've got the economic impact associated with the loss of connectivity - tourism will decrease. Businesses will now face greater costs as day trips suddenly become 2 day affairs with hotels and car hire needed.
And do you think the ferry prices will stay the same once the competition has disappeared? No chance!
Loganair are essential to the island communities. A small bailout will be nothing compared to the eventual cost of supporting these communities as tourism and businesses collapse and relocate due to lost connectivity.
What form these bailouts remain to be seen - the government are thinking long and hard about how to do it, that's why they are hiring consultants and not just handing out suitcases of cash. The assistance will be done in such a way to ensure that the airlines can continue to operate, but without them profiting from it. They may be loans on commercial terms, or they may be equity stakes in the airline.
IMHO, one of the best options may be for the scottish government to take over a number of the airlines assets, similar to what is being done with the Twin Otters. The government assumes control of the Saab 340 fleet, removing a lot of the airlines costs for the time being, then leases them back to the airline on commercial terms. This way they are protecting the essential flights to the islands, while ensuring the airline doesn't profit too extensively from the move. Any additional regional flying is done at the airlines own risk.
The most obvious impact will be the loss of jobs. How many people are employed by loganair and at the airports they serve? Next you've got the economic impact associated with the loss of connectivity - tourism will decrease. Businesses will now face greater costs as day trips suddenly become 2 day affairs with hotels and car hire needed.
And do you think the ferry prices will stay the same once the competition has disappeared? No chance!
Loganair are essential to the island communities. A small bailout will be nothing compared to the eventual cost of supporting these communities as tourism and businesses collapse and relocate due to lost connectivity.
What form these bailouts remain to be seen - the government are thinking long and hard about how to do it, that's why they are hiring consultants and not just handing out suitcases of cash. The assistance will be done in such a way to ensure that the airlines can continue to operate, but without them profiting from it. They may be loans on commercial terms, or they may be equity stakes in the airline.
IMHO, one of the best options may be for the scottish government to take over a number of the airlines assets, similar to what is being done with the Twin Otters. The government assumes control of the Saab 340 fleet, removing a lot of the airlines costs for the time being, then leases them back to the airline on commercial terms. This way they are protecting the essential flights to the islands, while ensuring the airline doesn't profit too extensively from the move. Any additional regional flying is done at the airlines own risk.
I know there's supposed to be no smoke without fire, but there is an awful lot of comment on here based on very little. No mention of exactly what sort of assistance has been requested? Much comment on the Scottish Govt intervening when the article refers to talks with the Department for Transport (DfT)?
After all, this comes from an article that describes Loganair as
Hardly shows a grasp of their core business...
Do you mean Iceland?
After all, this comes from an article that describes Loganair as
the regional carrier, which flies to airports in Southend, Belfast and Dublin from Carlisle.
After all Greenland has been doing mega sectors with their Dash 8 from Greenland to LHR and Denmark instead of the A330... so why not - needs must!
Join Date: Apr 2020
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Remember PSO's are a top-up fund to make them viable they are NOT fully underwritten - the Twotters are owned by HIAL - and Bond family own outright most 145's - Loganair charge a management fee for the AOC and crew them - there is nothing that Loganair currently do that cannot be achieved by other carriers that have either no debt or that are not owned indirectly by UK Gov etc.
There is one airline in the UK that is owned 100% by a government-affiliated with UK PLC so no issues with route licences, types or capacity currently. Whilst I would never want anyone to lose their job - they are not a special case and without Bond family dipping in for the first 100 mill then its easier to let it fold - do a pre-pack and help as many people as they can with something not debt-laden. Twotters can go on another twotter AOC very quickly subject to CAA paperwork - interim ACMI capacity for the type instantly available in the UK - the rest is a moot point till load factors and unlock happens - you could fly BN2 islanders if need be.. After all Greenland has been doing mega sectors with their Dash 8 from Greenland to LHR and Denmark instead of the A330... so why not - needs must!
There is one airline in the UK that is owned 100% by a government-affiliated with UK PLC so no issues with route licences, types or capacity currently. Whilst I would never want anyone to lose their job - they are not a special case and without Bond family dipping in for the first 100 mill then its easier to let it fold - do a pre-pack and help as many people as they can with something not debt-laden. Twotters can go on another twotter AOC very quickly subject to CAA paperwork - interim ACMI capacity for the type instantly available in the UK - the rest is a moot point till load factors and unlock happens - you could fly BN2 islanders if need be.. After all Greenland has been doing mega sectors with their Dash 8 from Greenland to LHR and Denmark instead of the A330... so why not - needs must!
de minimus non curat lex
For the old hands at Loganair, cast your mind back to 2000 when Scott Grier address the pilot workforce in Holiday Inn and announced that the Shorts 360s fleet would be disbanded, and that the plan was to operate six Saab 340s by 2002/03 to serve Scotland.
He also said the Twitters would be going as well, but I suspect the revised PSO arrangement changed his mind.
The Scottish Government will not allow Loganair to fail, although the size & shape might well contract to what existed at the start of the century.
As to what support HMG gives for south of 55°N is another matter, and of course with the Manx government in the mix as well.
He also said the Twitters would be going as well, but I suspect the revised PSO arrangement changed his mind.
The Scottish Government will not allow Loganair to fail, although the size & shape might well contract to what existed at the start of the century.
As to what support HMG gives for south of 55°N is another matter, and of course with the Manx government in the mix as well.
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For the old hands at Loganair, cast your mind back to 2000 when Scott Grier address the pilot workforce in Holiday Inn and announced that the Shorts 360s fleet would be disbanded, and that the plan was to operate six Saab 340s by 2002/03 to serve Scotland.
He also said the Twitters would be going as well, but I suspect the revised PSO arrangement changed his mind.
The Scottish Government will not allow Loganair to fail, although the size & shape might well contract to what existed at the start of the century.
As to what support HMG gives for south of 55°N is another matter, and of course with the Manx government in the mix as well.
He also said the Twitters would be going as well, but I suspect the revised PSO arrangement changed his mind.
The Scottish Government will not allow Loganair to fail, although the size & shape might well contract to what existed at the start of the century.
As to what support HMG gives for south of 55°N is another matter, and of course with the Manx government in the mix as well.
Join Date: Mar 2004
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The Manx Government has 3 other options at the door, two of which didn't exist as options post-Flybe collapse.
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From what I know... one is looking for more work for its UK based fleet of E jets off the back of this and it is sounding like a really good option to me.
The point is, the argument that Loganair is a saviour of the regions (or even just the IOM) is a thing of the past.
The point is, the argument that Loganair is a saviour of the regions (or even just the IOM) is a thing of the past.
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based on the Eastern side of the uk.
You must have a short memory in relation to their past ventures, especially on the Rock.
Check the Irish press for the other possible options, both of which are heading for examinership with substantial debts.
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That'll be the one with no branding or distribution to fly it under. As I said, each has pitfalls. You can go all aerosexual about how nice a jet would be on IOM-MAN but that won't guarantee longevity.
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As I say, 3 carriers have come to the table in the past few weeks wanting to assess the options in a post-COVID world. Stobart won't work, unless they're in partnership with a carrier that has the bottlenecks you identify. So *if* Loganair does go, it's not neccessarily a problem. That may be difficult for some to swallow, but that's where we are.
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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Please tell me the bits of the post that you think are wrong... I’m intrigued!
I understand you may be passionate about the employer you work for and the region you serve, however that is not sufficient reason to keep an airline flying that has never really made any money and is privately owned by a family that is wealthy, and will be tapped up for funding before the Scottish Executive or UK PLC.
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Crikey there are going to be a lot of disappointed people on here. And if people are suggesting Eastern as a better alternative then this Lockdown really isn't doing people any good
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Let me explain:
Loganair - Scotlands airline and should by definition ‘focus’ on connecting the Highlands and Islands via a hub/spoke network where commercially viable along with PSO supported routes where the Scottish Exec requires them to be provided. (Barra - et al) Further it could be a carrier of choice for connecting major cities from INV | GLA | EDI - LHR/LGW/MAN/BHX throughout the UK where commercial pressures allow it be profitable and it is not in direct competition with either a Green airline or Orange one... if its not commercially viable - don’t do it.
Twotter operators - IoSSC - spare aircraft - UK based - crews and aircraft available - profitable company currently with NO debt
BN 2 Operators - IoSSC - spare aircraft - UK based - crews and aircraft available - as above
Air Task - UK based - F406 & Islander aircraft available
Aurigny - Surplus ATR 600 aircraft plus an E-jet - 100% owned by the states of Guernsey which is a crown dependency of the UK - aka if UK PLC needs to borrow or build an airline to support regional connectivity in the UK it can be achieved without needing to support private companies that are historically loss making or operate aircraft that are the wrong type. It can write an IOU to Guernsey and achieve exactly what it wants to achieve. Aurigny will not be going bust any time soon - Blue Islands will no doubt disappear but Aurigny is 100% govt owned!
With current load factors in the single digit for most routes - you can fly most of what you need including cargo / air ambulance with either the Twotter or the BN2 - if you need anything bigger then you can use the ATR or call the crabs!
HIAL has shut ALL airports currently other than for essential flights / PSO - air ambulance and military.
Loganair should also tap up CNR/Enquest/Taqa for some coin based on them winning a new 5 year crew change IAC contract from ABZ to LSI as well as the owners of the crew change contract they are currently flying for the next month flying to Riga and Gdansk..
Cutting out the white noise and focusing on the facts reveals many paths that could be taken to provide connectivity to Scotland.
Cheers
Loganair - Scotlands airline and should by definition ‘focus’ on connecting the Highlands and Islands via a hub/spoke network where commercially viable along with PSO supported routes where the Scottish Exec requires them to be provided. (Barra - et al) Further it could be a carrier of choice for connecting major cities from INV | GLA | EDI - LHR/LGW/MAN/BHX throughout the UK where commercial pressures allow it be profitable and it is not in direct competition with either a Green airline or Orange one... if its not commercially viable - don’t do it.
Twotter operators - IoSSC - spare aircraft - UK based - crews and aircraft available - profitable company currently with NO debt
BN 2 Operators - IoSSC - spare aircraft - UK based - crews and aircraft available - as above
Air Task - UK based - F406 & Islander aircraft available
Aurigny - Surplus ATR 600 aircraft plus an E-jet - 100% owned by the states of Guernsey which is a crown dependency of the UK - aka if UK PLC needs to borrow or build an airline to support regional connectivity in the UK it can be achieved without needing to support private companies that are historically loss making or operate aircraft that are the wrong type. It can write an IOU to Guernsey and achieve exactly what it wants to achieve. Aurigny will not be going bust any time soon - Blue Islands will no doubt disappear but Aurigny is 100% govt owned!
With current load factors in the single digit for most routes - you can fly most of what you need including cargo / air ambulance with either the Twotter or the BN2 - if you need anything bigger then you can use the ATR or call the crabs!
HIAL has shut ALL airports currently other than for essential flights / PSO - air ambulance and military.
Loganair should also tap up CNR/Enquest/Taqa for some coin based on them winning a new 5 year crew change IAC contract from ABZ to LSI as well as the owners of the crew change contract they are currently flying for the next month flying to Riga and Gdansk..
Cutting out the white noise and focusing on the facts reveals many paths that could be taken to provide connectivity to Scotland.
Cheers
Allowing Loganair to fail would be THE most Thatcherite action Nippy has ever done.
“No wider commercial benefit”
”Survival of the fittest”
”Open to any competitor”
The Hell she’d get would be political dynamite and not worth it. This is a government that still keeps the Terminal at PIK open even though it’s high costs harm the wider business.
There’s not a lot of choice for HIAL if you want a reliable, frequent service, the incumbent wins hands down. The wider economic impact might suggest the jets would have to go anyway, but core Loganair have been around since the 1960s, no one is better at doing the job they do. Ask Flybe.
The whole ethos in the UK is public-private partnership, no one will be building a government owned Scottish airline. They do not want one on the balance sheet, that’s not going to happen, that’s a very 1970s idea and is open to much higher costs and inefficiency, as well as empire building and waste. Loganair fly old jets and ATRs, the government would be going for new builds, just like Aurigny has done for the THIRD iteration of new ATRs. For the price of saving Loganair for future commercial trading, that’s small change by comparison.
“No wider commercial benefit”
”Survival of the fittest”
”Open to any competitor”
The Hell she’d get would be political dynamite and not worth it. This is a government that still keeps the Terminal at PIK open even though it’s high costs harm the wider business.
There’s not a lot of choice for HIAL if you want a reliable, frequent service, the incumbent wins hands down. The wider economic impact might suggest the jets would have to go anyway, but core Loganair have been around since the 1960s, no one is better at doing the job they do. Ask Flybe.
The whole ethos in the UK is public-private partnership, no one will be building a government owned Scottish airline. They do not want one on the balance sheet, that’s not going to happen, that’s a very 1970s idea and is open to much higher costs and inefficiency, as well as empire building and waste. Loganair fly old jets and ATRs, the government would be going for new builds, just like Aurigny has done for the THIRD iteration of new ATRs. For the price of saving Loganair for future commercial trading, that’s small change by comparison.