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Stansted-3

Old 1st Apr 2018, 23:08
  #621 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: MCT
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Why weren’t people in the terminal directed to the DEDICATED EMERGENCY EXITS that feed down into the undercroft which then leads out to Enterprise House?
Incoming arriving

Were you there? Did you have possession of the facts about the incident as they unfolded? Did you have to make split second decisions about the safety of thousands of people?? Didn't think so.

Everything these days seems to get blown up out of all proportion - just deal with it in a non-panicked, sensible, non knee jerk way.
The implication that this was a knee jerk reaction and panicked is outrageous and a slur on the duty staff involved. Have you ever been involved in the control of the initial stages of an incident like this? Don't think so.

Sitting at your comfy keyboard reading all sorts of things which may or may not be correct well after the event is a wonderful thing. When you have something sensible to say come back and tell us.

I would assume that there will be a comprehensive revue afterwards, as happens after any significant incident. Every organisation has an emergency plan written in back rooms, which rarely survives the activities of real people in the real world. It can't be helped by the outsourcing of so many activities to third parties so that there's unlikely to be a unified chain of command.
InOban - in order to gain a modicum of knowledge of Emergency Planning at UK airfields have a look at this document - starting at page 36. You will find out the sort of organisations that should be involved and an outline of chains of command.

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/...%20FEB2017.pdf

Written in back rooms no doubt, but in full consultation with users and regularly tested including the chains of command and revised to take into account lessons learnt from previous exercises and incidents. It's part of the airfield licensing and safety management system without which an airfield is not allowed to operate, so your implication that it is effectively not fit for purpose is hugely wide of the mark.

Having been involved in writing some Airport Emergency Plans, the detail will show actions by certain named posts and communication links for all the categories of incidents that could occur. It is a framework as each and every incident will be unique and it therefore allows flexibility to respond to the circumstances of each incident. It will be reviewed after every incident and exercise to see where things didn't go to plan and how things may be improved.

I'm thoroughly p*ssed off at the implications that this was handled in a non-professional way. It's just some nasty speculation from so called know-it-alls who have never been involved in airport terminal operations sitting in an armchair and pontificating. But I guess that's the "fun" with the interweb these days - everybody is an instant expert. And of course hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Mistakes may have been made, but that will be for the review meeting to uncover and put right. If you were there, then I hope you will contribute your views to the relevant terminal staff at STN to help them. If not, let the professionals get on with their work.
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 23:19
  #622 (permalink)  
 
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I was not criticising the professionals unlike some posters. It will all come out in the revue. I am confident it will be thorough and highly professional.
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 05:38
  #623 (permalink)  
A4

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Suzeman - a bit over defensive there I think. Just because I wasn’t there doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to ask questions or express an opinion (I am familiar with STN). I’m just a bit bemused that a rapidly contained bus fire outside a terminal building shuts down a major airport and transport hub for the capital for the rest of the day from late afternoon on an especially busy day.

I’ve no doubt there are various procedures which are activated depending upon the severity of the situation. This bus didn’t arrive and “blow up” - it caught fire outside the terminal and progressively became worse (that doesn’t require split second decision making unlike a bomb or a gas explosion inside the terminal) - I totally acknowledge it requires a rapid, appropriate response which can be escalated to “DefCon 1 - go airside” if need be. If it was suspected terrorism I understand why the decision was made.

I don’t intend any slur on anyone - my choice of words was poor. I’m only asking the same questions which will be asked at the subsequent board of enquiry. Were the undercroft/train station/short stay carpark exits used? I don’t know. Are they adequate for a mass evacuation? If not why not and is “to airside” therefore the default?

I just get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the default worse case (evacuate to airside) was activated when, perhaps I stress, to just evacuate to landslide via the undercroft was perfectly safe and would not have had the massive knock on effects of shutting down a major airport on one of the busiest weekends of the year.

There’s another aspect to this. Suddenly, a lot of inbounds have to find somewhere else to go. With LTN/LGW/LHR all running at 95%+ capacity they soon fill and start to refuse diverts.....which then places additional strain on ATC, in some of the busiest airspace in the world, if aircraft start to declare Maydays due low fuel. I appreciate that can happen at anytime due to a closed runway....but if it’s a situation that can be avoided?

The Manchester Arena bomb report has just come out and there were some pretty scathing comments about some of the procedures there (fire fighters not allowed to enter.......but police and ambulance were? One life less valuable than another???)

No doubt lessons will be learned (I hate that sound bite used by politicians) and it may well come to pass that everything at STN was executed appropriately and perfectly in which case all those involved should be congratulated. If it is found that things could have been handled adequately and safely without the requirement to “go airside” and shutdown the airport then hopefully procedures will reflect this for any future event.

A4

Last edited by A4; 2nd Apr 2018 at 05:50.
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 09:56
  #624 (permalink)  
 
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There’s another aspect to this. Suddenly, a lot of inbounds have to find somewhere else to go. With LTN/LGW/LHR all running at 95%+ capacity they soon fill and start to refuse diverts.....which then places additional strain on ATC, in some of the busiest airspace in the world, if aircraft start to declare Maydays due low fuel. I appreciate that can happen at anytime due to a closed runway....but if it’s a situation that can be avoided?
Bus fire, outside landside, and as a result you are denyed one of the major SE UK airports.......From the POV of an aviator who sometimes has Stansted as the only planned alternate inbound I think that is probably the most important question..
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 11:52
  #625 (permalink)  
 
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Safety first.....safety first....even in an evacuation I would hope.

A poster mentions "dedicated emergency exits" which of course exist & available but very easy to mention from an armchair but those entail eight(8) flights of stairs from Terminal level to the undercroft believe it or not.....(I have used them often enough both ways for attempted fitness & when the staff lifts were out of action when traversing around the terminal)....& with the sheer volume of people aged from babes in arms to varying degrees of incapacity/infirmity & even with NO panic & NO smoke in those wells I know which decision I would make for them & which the professionals rightly took.

For the aviator posting above you WOULD NOT have been denied access to STN in extremis.
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 12:26
  #626 (permalink)  
 
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InOban....

Your ref to "third parties" with an "unlikely unified chain of command" has thankfully been answered in a professional way by Suzeman.

There is of course a control centre for all the normal terminal & airfield ops & functions, manned with all the necessary 24/7 & in any "emergency" goes into well rehearsed & proven lockdown operation.
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 12:39
  #627 (permalink)  
 
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Excellent.
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 13:12
  #628 (permalink)  
A4

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Can we please stop referencing armchairs? Is commenting/questioning prohibited if you weren’t there? I get that people will always defend their own patch - but I think the questions raised are legitimate.

SSB, are you inferring that the dedicated emergency exits (which I have also used numerous times) are not fit for purpose and therefore evacuate to airside is SOP? If they are not capable of dealing with the numbers of people is that not a design flaw for the whole terminal? (talking of which, have a read about Berlin’s (SXF) “new” terminal which massively failed the fire protection / smoke egress requirements and now has an estimated opening 10 years behind schedule)

I’m playing a bit of devils advocate here and I get why people think I’m being critical - I’m not - I’m just trying to balance what appears to have been a relatively “minor” external event with a response which had such a devastating affect on the airport and airlines operations for rest of the day. That’s all.

In terms of being guaranteed STN for fuel Mayday’s - what level of RFF was maintained? Do the airport fire services return to station once the local service has arrived?

A4
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 14:40
  #629 (permalink)  
 
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The authorities had zero idea what they were dealing with?

Accident?
Terrorism?
Multiple threats ?

Long delays yes .....but resoundingly beats death !
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 14:47
  #630 (permalink)  
 
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A4

Inferring no such thing....as Suseman has stated & I have inferred previously it is & would have been influenced by circumstances dear boy circumstances....

So generally in a mass evacuation you would be happy to have many thousands of people of all ages & ability negotiating 8 flights of stairs with a potential of panic if more situation evolved & god forbid smoke into the well if there existed a closer/more expeditious & safer route.

They are as you describe emergency exits & not fire exits per se.

Would YOU care to choose & segregate those who could make their way to safety & who you would be prohibit from those 8 flights of stairs & safety in the event?.

"Armchair" referencing is perfectly valid/allowed & not derogatory as you care to chose to wear it...it is just highlights the fact that WE weren't there but the professionals who are responsible were.

I`m not sure it is people defending their patch as you state, you are being perhaps being made aware that these decisions would have not taken lightly & without knowledge of the ramifications involved in them.

None of us are privy to the calculations of threat that had to be quickly considered & calculated concerning landside.

There may be of course another compelling reason at some stage in the events why everyone was "contained" somewhere within the terminal.(It may appear you require to think about that one)...but we will never be privy.

As with airborne I would prefer safety first & ask the relevant questions on the ground unfortunately not all had that benefit.


No idea of the level of fire standby but be assured the above aviator WOULD NOT have been denied access to STN in extremis.
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 14:48
  #631 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by southside bobby View Post
k.

For the aviator posting above you WOULD NOT have been denied access to STN in extremis.
Thanks for the info, and that is good to know....however ( there's always at least one) I'd certainly echo A4s question about what level of RFF was maintained.
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 14:59
  #632 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2017
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Full fire cover for the airfield would have been maintained. Stansted Airport Fire Service have one domestic pump appliance that is able to cover the airside and landside areas of the airport. This allows for rapid response when an incident like this occurs.
It is unlikely that the appliance would have returned to the station when local cover arrived, as the airport appliance crew would have been working on the active fire and the ‘watch manager’ of the airport crew would have needed to ensure the terminal and airport was safe from fire and could stand the incident down from their perspective.
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 15:08
  #633 (permalink)  
 
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Put it this way enough for LATCC to "offer" a holding aircraft a Mayday "invitation" to land STN with a low fuel state after being denied diversion by two nominated major airports.

The "offer" was declined after one of the nominated accepted him given the circumstances possibly impressed upon them by LATCC.
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 17:45
  #634 (permalink)  
 
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I think it is time for everybody to calm down. Getting utterly fed up of he said this, no I didn't. Major disruption yes, nobody hurt - can we all just move on please.
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 18:56
  #635 (permalink)  
 
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Couldn’t agree more can we please move on to other news now.
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 19:36
  #636 (permalink)  
 
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compton3bravo...

TBH I agree in theory but posters with "questions" require to be answered do they not?..

As every visiting post with "questions" has rightly used the premise referring to STN as being a major hub & it occuring on one of the busiest weekends of the year, with the massive disruption caused not only on site but major headaches in the LATCC,with major disruption on the train routes in & out of London too I would resignedly expect to see reasonable counters to those "questions" & to those disguised & not so disguised attempts at uninformed point making when it comes to public safety.

Just to say whatever the outcome of any so called "inquiry"as referred to but more likely debrief & if eventually any of it being made public I for one at least am happy that it was called as it was at the time...not withstanding obviously the travel chaos to the many many thousands.

End of from me...thanks.
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 19:52
  #637 (permalink)  
 
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Righto...more news now...

Some "interesting" facts/stats courtesy of the Jet2 website celebrating their first anniversary at STN..

Over 6,300 flights in the first year...

Over 1,000,000 passengers in the first year...

Top 5 destinations in the first year...
Tenerife
Alicante
Malaga
Majorca
Faro...

8.2 million miles flown...

113,490 cups of tea sold on board...

40,631 Kit Kats sold on board!!!...

Workforce in the first year 250 expanding this year to 550...


6 a/c in the first year expanding to 9 this year with capacity increasing 60%...
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Old 5th Apr 2018, 13:47
  #638 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
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New Route

TUI to launch Hurghada route. 1 x weekly, commencing 7 May '19.
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Old 5th Apr 2018, 17:25
  #639 (permalink)  
 
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Stansted R/W closed until 1745 due emergency repairs...several a/c diverting away.
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Old 5th Apr 2018, 17:41
  #640 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Re-opened early...at least a couple of RYR to LTN I believe previously tho.
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