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Southampton-2

Old 21st Aug 2020, 19:17
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Eastern's latest schedule update has Teesside still starting on the 7th September, but initially only once daily instead of twice. Leeds will remain once daily on that date instead of the previous increase to 3x daily, which always seemed optimistic.
Personally I'd much prefer to see the routes returning at lower frequencies than being delayed or not returning at all so I'm fairly happy with today's update. Teesside will add another daily destination on the departures board.
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Old 21st Aug 2020, 19:44
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Personally I'd much prefer to see the routes returning at lower frequencies than being delayed or not returning at all
Yes and no, perhaps.

Would they not be better doing one thing well (SOU-MME-ABZ) instead of two things badly (SOU-MME and SOU-NCL)?

I'm assuming there must be a reason they don't, but I don't know what that reason is.

SOU-BHD sounds to be doing OK for them, unlike MAN which is decidedly hit and miss.

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Old 21st Aug 2020, 19:54
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I’m hearing a lot about potential alliance / tie-up between the likes of BI and Loganair, possibly with Stobart/EIR too as a regional network alliance. This will leave Eastern on their own fighting the group of them, so they need to get this right and win the business for the long term now.
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Old 21st Aug 2020, 20:02
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Originally Posted by JSCL
I’m hearing a lot about potential alliance / tie-up between the likes of BI and Loganair, possibly with Stobart/EIR too as a regional network alliance. This will leave Eastern on their own fighting the group of them, so they need to get this right and win the business for the long term now.
There might be a tie up with Eastern and Stobart with a code share with BA and EI , This would explain where the 2 E190's and 2 ATRs are coming from. Would also help with the flights from Teesside to Heathrow

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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 14:22
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Originally Posted by southside bobby
Rivet Joint...

BE POLITE...Because you lose or are exposed by the arguments & discussions try not be childish with user names please.
Believe it or not it was an honest spelling mistake, so apologies if offence was taken.

I admit as far as the economy etc goes my comments are a bit on the optimistic side. Things always recover though, so there is no reason SOU cannot look forward to a bright future. It is important to remember that until SOU has had the benefit of significant investment to make it able to cater for larger aircraft and loads, its potential cannot be judged.There are so many things in the local area that would create a market for a sizable low cost carrier operator. You cannot compare previous airlines that use small planes and charge hundreds of pounds for the privilege. Most people who currently fly from SOU do so purely based on convenience. Pay quite a bit more but it's less hassle. Once the playing field is fair, do you think the numerous people who fly from LGW, LHR, LTN and STN because the flights are cheaper will still do so when tickets can be had at the same price from SOU? Especially when there is a train station across the road avoiding the need for the expense of parking on top of the long drive? Not to mention having its own motorway junction. Everything is in place for SOU when it comes to connectivity, and the there is a market ready to be tapped. The drawback has always been air-side investment, which is finally happening, so yes it is a time to be positive.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 16:43
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Why would anyone make a sizable investment at Southampton - it was just about holding on but long term the convenience factor was slowly being eroded by the economics of larger aircraft out of LGW or LHR

A major physical expansion was impossible at any airfield in the UK pre CV19 - after I think there will be a big shrinkage in flights and airports
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 16:59
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
Why would anyone make a sizable investment at Southampton - it was just about holding on but long term the convenience factor was slowly being eroded by the economics of larger aircraft out of LGW or LHR

A major physical expansion was impossible at any airfield in the UK pre CV19 - after I think there will be a big shrinkage in flights and airports
Absolutely right!, the best SOU can do is hang on,but the longer the covid 19 crisis goes on, then the possibility of some airfields like Southhampton being unprofitable greatly increase.
As such Southampton must be on an increasing list of fields that could close,and the valuable land used for development. The Runway extension is now an irrelevant side issue,that almost certainly will be referred to an extended review.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 17:12
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Right, so the economic crisis continues making the airport unprofitable, but it's not so bad that the land becomes valuable for development?
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 18:31
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The airport will bounce back that I am confident of and the runway extension will be passed at local level or if not by central government. As for its long term future, that will depend on holidays abroad becoming the norm once more as U.K. business connectivity is probably to a large extent now a think of the past, not withstanding family and friends still wishing to travel domestically. All is not lost and currently the airport sits in a similar if not slightly more encouraging position than many other regionals!
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 20:49
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There is a great business case for extending the runway at Southampton. It's been in the region of 2M pax and just before that in 2019, that's based on a limited route network operated by Dash8 and a token presence of a low cost jet operator.

Just taking a look at key towns/cities close by we are looking at 1million people. Gatwick is 87 miles away and Bristol just over 100. Let's not forget it's possible that a, meaningful operation could draw users from South London and the surrounding counties.

The cruise business will recover, this drives significant volume into SOU, the port also generates traffic.

If I were running SOU, post expansion (not discounting the challenges of expansion) I'd be aiming for 5M pax plus, a presence by a low cost airline, I'd not rule out Wizz and the likes of Jet2, would make a lot of sense.

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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 21:14
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Originally Posted by EI-BUD
There is a great business case for extending the runway at Southampton. It's been in the region of 2M pax and just before that in 2019, that's based on a limited route network operated by Dash8 and a token presence of a low cost jet operator.

Just taking a look at key towns/cities close by we are looking at 1million people. Gatwick is 87 miles away and Bristol just over 100. Let's not forget it's possible that a, meaningful operation could draw users from South London and the surrounding counties.

The cruise business will recover, this drives significant volume into SOU, the port also generates traffic.

If I were running SOU, post expansion (not discounting the challenges of expansion) I'd be aiming for 5M pax plus, a presence by a low cost airline, I'd not rule out Wizz and the likes of Jet2, would make a lot of sense.

A lot of sense, with the greatest of respect is to have a runway that could even accept Jet2 or Wizz...
They have 737-800 and A321 - both of which cannot, even with a 164m runway tag on operate economically safely or payload unrestricted in or out of SOU.
If you want FR Jet2 or anyone with a 738 or an A321 you need quite a bit more than 164m....and that means likely tunnelling the M27 lol
That is not gonna happen is it now.

As I and others have mentioned here of late the need for the businessmen and connectivity point to point flights all hopefully will resume one day in good numbers.
(it has started off well but sadly delays due to yet more covid quarantine issues which have delayed more and more of the start ups)

We've got back The C.I, EDI MAN NCL DUB BFS LBA ABZ - we do need AMS & DUB to get on track asap plus CDG

TUI may come back in summer 2021 for Majorca but who knows - they say they are for now....
We have lost all other IT work - Inghams Lakes & Mountains had Verona twice a week - that has gone - will it ever come back?
SOU and its previous airlines did not really tap into the then booming Cruise ship business - that ship has sunk for now.........
GVA ski flights next winter ? - well we hope we can all got to the slopes in France and Switzerland by then - but you cannot now though....

So, going back to what if you were running SOU - well what now?
lol (I'm only teasing)
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 21:55
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Originally Posted by rog747
A lot of sense, with the greatest of respect is to have a runway that could even accept Jet2 or Wizz...
They have 737-800 and A321 - both of which cannot, even with a 164m runway tag on operate economically safely or payload unrestricted in or out of SOU.
If you want FR Jet2 or anyone with a 738 or an A321 you need quite a bit more than 164m....and that means likely tunnelling the M27 lol
That is not gonna happen is it now.
With all due respect, are you able to produce valid performance figures to back up those statements? If SOU gets a 164m extension and the tree obstacles on the runway 20 climbing are removed, then my understanding from what I've been told is that economic 738 operations would become possible, particularly with the SFP model.

It's an argument that's often trotted out on this thread as yet another nail in the coffin for SOU (and depending on who's posts you read, there can appear to be many, many nails). What I'd like to see though is for a real pilot (are there any on this section of pprune?) to run the performance figures for a 1887m runway with no significant obstacles and then show their working, along with an indication of how far they could carry a commercially viable load from that runway. That would hopefully put the argument to bed one way or another.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 07:43
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I think there is also a problem with the width of the runway being only 37 m wide that also causes problems and requires crew training and flight manual changes (also to the MEL)
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 07:58
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While there is a bit of a recovery in the aviation industry it worth noting that Southampton have 5 arrivals today compared to Gatwicks 140 and Heathrow have too many to count.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 09:35
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Originally Posted by bad bear
I think there is also a problem with the width of the runway being only 37 m wide that also causes problems and requires crew training and flight manual changes (also to the MEL)
SEN also has a non-standard runway width I believe of 37m, however it operates A320s and B737-400 and 800s quite successfully.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 09:35
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Originally Posted by bad bear
While there is a bit of a recovery in the aviation industry it worth noting that Southampton have 5 arrivals today compared to Gatwicks 140 and Heathrow have too many to count.
....and NWI have 2, EXT have 3 and BOH have 4. Out of the four of them I've a good idea who is going to recover first!
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 09:58
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Originally Posted by TCAS FAN
....and NWI have 2, EXT have 3 and BOH have 4. Out of the four of them I've a good idea who is going to recover first!
Spot on, don't see any relevance whatsoever in bad bears comment. SOU is making the best of an unparalleled situation and re-building rather well with the upcoming months looking positive with increased frequencies on most airlines and KLM going x 2 daily with a E90 (all subject to industry change of course!)
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 10:07
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On a related note, I wonder when they plan to open some of the food outlets and shops in the airport again. There are a few comments on social media about people having to go hungry as nothing is currently available. Surely with ~500 passengers now departing and arriving on weekdays it is economical to at least have something open - somewhere like Costa probably does just enough food to fill the hole for now. Maybe somewhere will open the week after next when KLM start on 31/08, when there will be more passengers at the start or end of potentially much longer journeys than now.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 10:52
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Yes old chap - Mr MOL himself said just a few months ago ''Ryanair will not be going to SOU as our planes are TOO BIG''

That really does more or less suggest that line closes the debate on 737-800 Ops at SOU UFN.
We have gone round and round on this to the point now of delusion & delirium. LOL.


In addition to that I do have a few B738 Driver Pals who all know the issues with it's limitations into small or restrictive airfields, we have had plenty of dinner party discussions. Not just on SOU, but GIB and even BRS too.

SEN is NOT SOU....

I am not nailing any SOU coffins - I am future upbeat (as I have said before) about the recent Connectivity route progress that SOU and the Airlines seem to be getting underway with some progress but with also so much continuing duress.

BTW -
Jet2 TUI and EZY for that matter are all clinging to life right now so any suggestions that might include SOU Bases or even Operations are way off...
If anyone has heard concrete evidence that WIZZ are looking at SOU then I would be a little surprised
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 11:09
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Originally Posted by adfly
On a related note, I wonder when they plan to open some of the food outlets and shops in the airport again. There are a few comments on social media about people having to go hungry as nothing is currently available. Surely with ~500 passengers now departing and arriving on weekdays it is economical to at least have something open - somewhere like Costa probably does just enough food to fill the hole for now. Maybe somewhere will open the week after next when KLM start on 31/08, when there will be more passengers at the start or end of potentially much longer journeys than now.

Food would be good, as would be a Car Hire desk that stays open for the flights (Hopefully both will come soon)
We just about have a train service...

With the rise in Quarantine Countries escalating now to include almost all of the Low Countries has, or will KLM put back the AMS start date>?
Likewise DUB too...
And I guess no CDG taker as yet...

Are quarantine rules still in force for the Channel Islands for now - is it both ways? Different rules it seems for JER and GCI

All of these are hurdles facing not just SOU but we hope these will pass..............

Last edited by rog747; 23rd Aug 2020 at 11:26.
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