MANCHESTER 1
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Gayfriendly
re the runway extension from BHX. The Chinese flights don't need it as they don't carry cargo, being charter.
The China Southern 330s were up within 2\3 of the old runway last year
Nigel
re the runway extension from BHX. The Chinese flights don't need it as they don't carry cargo, being charter.
The China Southern 330s were up within 2\3 of the old runway last year
Nigel
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How much do airport managers care about tourist attractions in their catchment areas? Well Turtle Controller when you were starting primary school, I was in charge of one arm of the effort to bring increased business and leisure tourism into the Manchester area.
In a market place very different to today's with far fewer hotels and tourist attractions we received every support and encouragement from not only the airport but also British Airways 1-11 division, both of whom were keen to help anything that would increase traffic.
By the time you left school I had been on committees, both locally and nationally, with board members and managers of every UK airport authority and I can assure you all were acutely aware of the need for and benefits of a wide range of attractions to generate inward traffic.
Your comments on the hat museum are laughable. A broad mix of attractions in an area's marketing portfolio is essential. During my time in Manchester, one of the most sought after venues for visits on accompanying persons' programmes organised for international conferences was Helmshore Mill Museum. You obviously have no notion of what international visitors require or the fact that the airport has representation on various boards, committees and working parties dedicated to the development of tourism and the facilities to generate tourist income.
In the years since I moved on from Manchester, it has developed massive amounts of bed space, a host of tourist attractions and a much more integrated approach to tourism marketing in which the airport and its management plays a vital role.
In a market place very different to today's with far fewer hotels and tourist attractions we received every support and encouragement from not only the airport but also British Airways 1-11 division, both of whom were keen to help anything that would increase traffic.
By the time you left school I had been on committees, both locally and nationally, with board members and managers of every UK airport authority and I can assure you all were acutely aware of the need for and benefits of a wide range of attractions to generate inward traffic.
Your comments on the hat museum are laughable. A broad mix of attractions in an area's marketing portfolio is essential. During my time in Manchester, one of the most sought after venues for visits on accompanying persons' programmes organised for international conferences was Helmshore Mill Museum. You obviously have no notion of what international visitors require or the fact that the airport has representation on various boards, committees and working parties dedicated to the development of tourism and the facilities to generate tourist income.
In the years since I moved on from Manchester, it has developed massive amounts of bed space, a host of tourist attractions and a much more integrated approach to tourism marketing in which the airport and its management plays a vital role.
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I suspect that both Turtle and Phil are correct. In the case of the BHX charters we don't know the passenger demographic - they may be overrun with Chinese car enthusiasts eager to tour historic assembly sites. On that basis MAN hasn't a prayer! I suspect that the reality is that the relative proximity to London plays a significant part, which is very tourist specific, and less relevant for the business traffic that a MAN flight would hope to attract.
The impact of the airport these days is overplayed, especially on this thread. Yes they can play a big part in getting on an airline's radar, and highlight possible gaps in service that an airline has an opportunity to fill. They can also offer start up discounts and that sort of stuff, but in the overall scheme of things that is small beer as a contribution to a route's profitability. However once those 2 objectives are achieved the bulk of the case rests with the airline - do they have spare aircraft to operate the route; is the route likely to be more profitable than the current route portfolio if another route needs to be dropped to accomodate the new one. Don't forget that even on a route that ramps up quickly it probably won't be profitable for a couple of years due to start up costs, so needs to have a strong case for supplanting an existing currently slightly profitable route - the whole 'jam today' argument.
The impact of the airport these days is overplayed, especially on this thread. Yes they can play a big part in getting on an airline's radar, and highlight possible gaps in service that an airline has an opportunity to fill. They can also offer start up discounts and that sort of stuff, but in the overall scheme of things that is small beer as a contribution to a route's profitability. However once those 2 objectives are achieved the bulk of the case rests with the airline - do they have spare aircraft to operate the route; is the route likely to be more profitable than the current route portfolio if another route needs to be dropped to accomodate the new one. Don't forget that even on a route that ramps up quickly it probably won't be profitable for a couple of years due to start up costs, so needs to have a strong case for supplanting an existing currently slightly profitable route - the whole 'jam today' argument.
Curious Pax
Excellent analysis!
The impact of the airport these days is overplayed, especially on this thread. Yes they can play a big part in getting on an airline's radar, and highlight possible gaps in service that an airline has an opportunity to fill. They can also offer start up discounts and that sort of stuff, but in the overall scheme of things that is small beer as a contribution to a route's profitability. However once those 2 objectives are achieved the bulk of the case rests with the airline - do they have spare aircraft to operate the route; is the route likely to be more profitable than the current route portfolio if another route needs to be dropped to accomodate the new one. Don't forget that even on a route that ramps up quickly it probably won't be profitable for a couple of years due to start up costs, so needs to have a strong case for supplanting an existing currently slightly profitable route - the whole 'jam today' argument.
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Here's a curious tweet just gone through without any mention of a source:
airlineroute @airlineroute
Hainan Airlines is studying Beijing - Manchester route but there may be some changes to this proposed service
Hainan Airlines is studying Beijing - Manchester route but there may be some changes to this proposed service
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Manchester Airport hopes to pass 30m mark by 2025 - Manchester Evening News
If they hope to achieve 23.5m next year, 30m by 2025 doesn't sound that ambitious, but no doubt there will be a few bumps along the way so better to be cautious.
The article includes this comment from Charlie Cornish:
Mr Cornish said: "In airline terms, Cathay Pacific is considered to be a premium airline and Hong Kong is as interesting to us as Beijing or Shanghai because the access points are as great, if not greater, to other Chinese cities."
And sorry folks, he also mentions trains!
Mr Cornish also spoke of the importance of rail links to Manchester Airport.
He said: "If you have got northern cities linking to Manchester Airport, that allows Manchester Airport to operate more as a true northern gateway and will give people very quick and very efficient access to us.
"That will lead to the opportunity for more long haul flights and, in turn, the creation of economic wealth.
If they hope to achieve 23.5m next year, 30m by 2025 doesn't sound that ambitious, but no doubt there will be a few bumps along the way so better to be cautious.
The article includes this comment from Charlie Cornish:
Mr Cornish said: "In airline terms, Cathay Pacific is considered to be a premium airline and Hong Kong is as interesting to us as Beijing or Shanghai because the access points are as great, if not greater, to other Chinese cities."
And sorry folks, he also mentions trains!
Mr Cornish also spoke of the importance of rail links to Manchester Airport.
He said: "If you have got northern cities linking to Manchester Airport, that allows Manchester Airport to operate more as a true northern gateway and will give people very quick and very efficient access to us.
"That will lead to the opportunity for more long haul flights and, in turn, the creation of economic wealth.
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Curious Pax, where Turtle controller is totally wrong and in ignorance of the facts , I have already explained. Where he has a good point is regarding the commercial viability of the charter flights in regard to BHX.
For whatever reason, the flights are operating to an airport pretty much equidistant from the three largest concentrations of Chinese populations and cultural centres in the UK, being London, Manchester and Liverpool. The charterers will have either responded to a range of demands or decided on objectives and targeted particular groups and individuals.
Whatever the destinations and attractions the passengers are bound for, the operator will have looked at all the options, these being the carriers available, the airport costs, ground transportation costs and possibly hotels, attraction packages and the amount of time taken to move around the country from the available arrival airports.
We don't know just how much or little the tour operator is offering. What is clear is that they will have decided on the most cost effective/profitable combination of options.
What has this to do with Hainan Airlines and Manchester? Precisely nothing. As far as the airline is concerned it has won a contract to take a number of passengers from A to B and back on given dates on a charter basis.
In all likelihood the scheduled and charter operations are staffed differently, operate remotely from each other and their only conjunction is the availability of aircraft.
For whatever reason, the flights are operating to an airport pretty much equidistant from the three largest concentrations of Chinese populations and cultural centres in the UK, being London, Manchester and Liverpool. The charterers will have either responded to a range of demands or decided on objectives and targeted particular groups and individuals.
Whatever the destinations and attractions the passengers are bound for, the operator will have looked at all the options, these being the carriers available, the airport costs, ground transportation costs and possibly hotels, attraction packages and the amount of time taken to move around the country from the available arrival airports.
We don't know just how much or little the tour operator is offering. What is clear is that they will have decided on the most cost effective/profitable combination of options.
What has this to do with Hainan Airlines and Manchester? Precisely nothing. As far as the airline is concerned it has won a contract to take a number of passengers from A to B and back on given dates on a charter basis.
In all likelihood the scheduled and charter operations are staffed differently, operate remotely from each other and their only conjunction is the availability of aircraft.
From a personal perspective, I find MAN a total bitch to get to from east of the pennines, - I may as well drive to London. Or Birmingham.
Or as I did last time drive to Birmingham, Air India cancel, drive to London, Virgin.....
Or as I did last time drive to Birmingham, Air India cancel, drive to London, Virgin.....
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Hainan
Very interesting tweets coming in from airline routes where someone is going into details about the manchester service. Airoine routes say they spoken to hainan and they said "it's not a done deal!" 
Has anyone read the tweets from airlineroutes
Has anyone read the tweets from airlineroutes
Last edited by sarah19981; 6th Mar 2015 at 19:17.
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That Charlie Cornish speech, this time in partial English !
Growth
4%..ish over 10 years ? Appears modest but will be based on looking over ones shoulder at World events, Middle East as ever, Putin, et al.
Cathay
Very wholesome support, "come and have a cuddle",
So a direct would have been nice but there is actually no problem as we simply now use Cathay !
hmmmmm... a none to subtle handbrake turn there !
All true of course. With critical mass in place, a daily route becomes even more sustainable especially if you are ALREADY filling what we have now.
Whilst a Beijing route seems to be be evaporating at the speed of light, a smart about turn does seem to be the order of the day. In fact two daily, morning and evening would be rather splendid. The Chinese tourist market is potentially massive and they don't seem quite as blinkered as "Dwight Diddlly Bom Bom" from Ohio who sees the UK as "That tha' LondonTown" Opportunities remain !
That said I must confess this whole "Hainan Syndrome" does seem very odd. It's a long time since we had a route where everything "appeared" to be in place and yet evaporated so quickly ! ....it can't possibly be just the BHX factor can it ?
Hainan Route planning does seem a bit how shall we put this kindly "frenzied ?".
The worry here is that they may base the start of a BHX schedule on filling a charter, if it then fails is it really likely they will look elsewhere, doubtful !
This may be construed as sour grapes, it isnt. We want airlines with a coherent professional approach do we not !
Terminal Expansion
"Manchester will be a very different place in three years".
So a three year timeframe to expand seems obvious from this comment does it not ?
...unless of course he is talking about expanding the apron car parking to cover T1 and T3 !
HS2
HS2 is an interesting one.
Northern cities have to take account of the fact it is a huge opportunity and it is a huge risk, as it will take people both north and south but we are sure that, as the region develops, we will be able to pull people north, rather than them going south."
This does seem a very odd comment it might benefit Manchester and The North .....but there again it might not !.
Well hang on chaps, run that one by me again, "it is a huge risk" A RISK , this isn't a £5 punt on the 2.20 at Haydock chaps !
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does the MEN actually have anybody who have completed a very basic CSE English grade C ?
Much of this didn't make sense, if I was a MAG PR person (which quite clearly I am not) I would be squirming at this output.
A major keynote speech that quite frankly in some key areas was translated as utter gobbledygook!
"In three years, Manchester Airport will be vastly different to what it is today and in three years, it will be hugely different."
"Manchester Airport will handle about 23.5m passengers next year and has the potential to grow to 55m. In 10 years, it will be 55m-plus."
Deary me , shocking !
Growth
4%..ish over 10 years ? Appears modest but will be based on looking over ones shoulder at World events, Middle East as ever, Putin, et al.
Cathay
Very wholesome support, "come and have a cuddle",
So a direct would have been nice but there is actually no problem as we simply now use Cathay !
hmmmmm... a none to subtle handbrake turn there !
All true of course. With critical mass in place, a daily route becomes even more sustainable especially if you are ALREADY filling what we have now.
Whilst a Beijing route seems to be be evaporating at the speed of light, a smart about turn does seem to be the order of the day. In fact two daily, morning and evening would be rather splendid. The Chinese tourist market is potentially massive and they don't seem quite as blinkered as "Dwight Diddlly Bom Bom" from Ohio who sees the UK as "That tha' LondonTown" Opportunities remain !
That said I must confess this whole "Hainan Syndrome" does seem very odd. It's a long time since we had a route where everything "appeared" to be in place and yet evaporated so quickly ! ....it can't possibly be just the BHX factor can it ?
Hainan Route planning does seem a bit how shall we put this kindly "frenzied ?".
The worry here is that they may base the start of a BHX schedule on filling a charter, if it then fails is it really likely they will look elsewhere, doubtful !
This may be construed as sour grapes, it isnt. We want airlines with a coherent professional approach do we not !
Terminal Expansion
"Manchester will be a very different place in three years".
So a three year timeframe to expand seems obvious from this comment does it not ?
...unless of course he is talking about expanding the apron car parking to cover T1 and T3 !
HS2
HS2 is an interesting one.
Northern cities have to take account of the fact it is a huge opportunity and it is a huge risk, as it will take people both north and south but we are sure that, as the region develops, we will be able to pull people north, rather than them going south."
This does seem a very odd comment it might benefit Manchester and The North .....but there again it might not !.
Well hang on chaps, run that one by me again, "it is a huge risk" A RISK , this isn't a £5 punt on the 2.20 at Haydock chaps !
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does the MEN actually have anybody who have completed a very basic CSE English grade C ?
Much of this didn't make sense, if I was a MAG PR person (which quite clearly I am not) I would be squirming at this output.
A major keynote speech that quite frankly in some key areas was translated as utter gobbledygook!
"In three years, Manchester Airport will be vastly different to what it is today and in three years, it will be hugely different."
"Manchester Airport will handle about 23.5m passengers next year and has the potential to grow to 55m. In 10 years, it will be 55m-plus."
Deary me , shocking !
Last edited by Bagso; 7th Mar 2015 at 09:00.
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CHINA
I agree BAGSO about the apparent new emphasis on CX and the connecting opportunities to cities on mainland China in that article.
Interesting comparison with what CC was reported in the M.E.N. as saying in Oct. 2013, which I think was when the Chinese investment in Airport City was announced:
“The more Chinese businesses there are that have bases in the region, the more trade flows between Manchester and China and the more people need to travel to places like Beijing and Shanghai.
There is already high interest from Chinese airlines about establishing a direct route between Manchester and China and it is just a case of getting those negotiations across the line.
It has always been our intention for that to happen during 2014 and that is still our goal.”
I suppose it could at a stretch be interpreted that he only had CX in mind but I rather think not.
Various suggestions elsewhere as to what 'changes to the Manchester service' by Hainan (mentioned on Routes) implies - different aircraft, amended frequency, delayed start date, intermediate stop. Or, as some less optimistic punters might opine - change of UK destination.
If it has gone pear-shaped, hardly surprising if MAN are pushing hard for CX to go daily. We wait and see.
As to the reference to MAN looking very different in 3 years time, it can surely only mean in infrastructure and design, although it would be nice if he also meant in terms of new destinations.
I also agree about the poor journalism. I guess CC was maybe saying capacity would be 55m after the changes over the next 3 years but who knows!
I agree BAGSO about the apparent new emphasis on CX and the connecting opportunities to cities on mainland China in that article.
Interesting comparison with what CC was reported in the M.E.N. as saying in Oct. 2013, which I think was when the Chinese investment in Airport City was announced:
“The more Chinese businesses there are that have bases in the region, the more trade flows between Manchester and China and the more people need to travel to places like Beijing and Shanghai.
There is already high interest from Chinese airlines about establishing a direct route between Manchester and China and it is just a case of getting those negotiations across the line.
It has always been our intention for that to happen during 2014 and that is still our goal.”
I suppose it could at a stretch be interpreted that he only had CX in mind but I rather think not.
Various suggestions elsewhere as to what 'changes to the Manchester service' by Hainan (mentioned on Routes) implies - different aircraft, amended frequency, delayed start date, intermediate stop. Or, as some less optimistic punters might opine - change of UK destination.
If it has gone pear-shaped, hardly surprising if MAN are pushing hard for CX to go daily. We wait and see.
As to the reference to MAN looking very different in 3 years time, it can surely only mean in infrastructure and design, although it would be nice if he also meant in terms of new destinations.
I also agree about the poor journalism. I guess CC was maybe saying capacity would be 55m after the changes over the next 3 years but who knows!
"Manchester will be a very different place in three years".
Northern cities have to take account of the fact it is a huge opportunity and it is a huge risk, as it will take people both north and south but we are sure that, as the region develops, we will be able to pull people north, rather than them going south."
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Enter Air looks to basing a 737-800 for the full week according to the below website. Was only based for 3 days but now have flights on every day including 2 based on a Wednesday. Also operates W patterns through BHX.
Charter Flight Centre Home page [charterflights.co.uk]
Charter Flight Centre Home page [charterflights.co.uk]
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Each month a 'table' giving the best performing ports, there are 95, within CX, is published, I'm not sure of all the criteria but it includes, OTP, passenger services, load factors etc, for February of those 95 CX stations Manchester was 4th! I'm told the load factor was 90% but that is only one part of it (3rd placed only had a 50% load factor).
That is quite an impressive start and hopefully bodes well for the future.
That is quite an impressive start and hopefully bodes well for the future.
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"pull people north, rather than them going south" - history would suggest that it's not a great bet...