GB Rules - OK?
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Land ASAP;
BA pilots cost considerably more to employ than GB Airways pilots. This is fact. The Salaries may be not too far apart but your Hourly Flying rate, allowances and most importantly company pension contributions mean you cost BA in excess of £10,000 p.a. more than GB pays for iys pilots. Multiply this by say 200 pilots and that is £2 million off the bottom line. Note; GB pilots have a low company contribution money purchase pension scheme.
You are partly right this is not the ONLY reason BA loses money, but it is the reason it loses £2million more than it would if it payed market rate. Multiply this sort of excess cost throughout the entire BA structure and then you start to see why BA shorthaul cannot make money.
Mr ASAP can you list the routes BA has 'donated' to GB. The only routes GB operates that BA did are those 5 routes BA would have let lapse if GB had not picked them up. There is no 'donation' just a shedding of loss making routes. If GB had not picked them up someone else would have. If another company, EasyJet or GO or Iberia or TAP had picked them up, how much would BA have recieved in franchise, handling fees etc etc? 3 of these routes are allegedly marginal or loss making for GB. The other 2 BA did and would still lose money on. BAs management could not affiord to take them back. These routes would add to BAs losses considerably. Are you suggesting the tens of millions GB pays BA every year is a 'donation'.
As I said please examine the GB network and tell us all which routes are rightfully yours.
If you cannot understand the GB pilots attitude, loyalty etc . I would suggest it is because many have worked for Laker, Dan-Air, Air Europe, AB, Debonnair etc etc and know the 'real politik' of the airline industry - Airline owners are in it to make a profit. If they make a profit they stay in business. If they stay in business they employ pilots.
Airlines are not an employment scheme for pilots. I would love top world rate for the job. However I realise that this can only be achieved if the company makes enough money to pay it. Until then I will settle for a fair deal, and some job security.
With regards harmony between CCs:
Why did the GB CC find out about S'CRAP by accident.
Why do BA pilots feel they are entitled to routes BA never flew -ever.
Why do want to change GB pilots terms and conditions. They do not want to change yours?
P.S. I am told GB is recruiting if you feel the grass is greener and you have nothing to lose please apply.
P.P.S GB has lost dozens of pilots to B.A. over the last few years. With more leaving soon.
BA pilots cost considerably more to employ than GB Airways pilots. This is fact. The Salaries may be not too far apart but your Hourly Flying rate, allowances and most importantly company pension contributions mean you cost BA in excess of £10,000 p.a. more than GB pays for iys pilots. Multiply this by say 200 pilots and that is £2 million off the bottom line. Note; GB pilots have a low company contribution money purchase pension scheme.
You are partly right this is not the ONLY reason BA loses money, but it is the reason it loses £2million more than it would if it payed market rate. Multiply this sort of excess cost throughout the entire BA structure and then you start to see why BA shorthaul cannot make money.
Mr ASAP can you list the routes BA has 'donated' to GB. The only routes GB operates that BA did are those 5 routes BA would have let lapse if GB had not picked them up. There is no 'donation' just a shedding of loss making routes. If GB had not picked them up someone else would have. If another company, EasyJet or GO or Iberia or TAP had picked them up, how much would BA have recieved in franchise, handling fees etc etc? 3 of these routes are allegedly marginal or loss making for GB. The other 2 BA did and would still lose money on. BAs management could not affiord to take them back. These routes would add to BAs losses considerably. Are you suggesting the tens of millions GB pays BA every year is a 'donation'.
As I said please examine the GB network and tell us all which routes are rightfully yours.
If you cannot understand the GB pilots attitude, loyalty etc . I would suggest it is because many have worked for Laker, Dan-Air, Air Europe, AB, Debonnair etc etc and know the 'real politik' of the airline industry - Airline owners are in it to make a profit. If they make a profit they stay in business. If they stay in business they employ pilots.
Airlines are not an employment scheme for pilots. I would love top world rate for the job. However I realise that this can only be achieved if the company makes enough money to pay it. Until then I will settle for a fair deal, and some job security.
With regards harmony between CCs:
Why did the GB CC find out about S'CRAP by accident.
Why do BA pilots feel they are entitled to routes BA never flew -ever.
Why do want to change GB pilots terms and conditions. They do not want to change yours?
P.S. I am told GB is recruiting if you feel the grass is greener and you have nothing to lose please apply.
P.P.S GB has lost dozens of pilots to B.A. over the last few years. With more leaving soon.
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Suitable replacements?? Does that mean we in BA only employ chuck yeager's offspring? Maybe the rest of the pilots out there are happy where they are, or perhaps just naive?
Mmmmm. Routes that were given away i think not. BA just didn't make money on them and we were only too glad to get rid of them. Now others are making them profitable and the industry is more competitive some of you seem to want them back because they are our birthright because we are BA! As mentioned earlier MPL is a very good example.
Merry Christmas - just off to my bunker.
Mmmmm. Routes that were given away i think not. BA just didn't make money on them and we were only too glad to get rid of them. Now others are making them profitable and the industry is more competitive some of you seem to want them back because they are our birthright because we are BA! As mentioned earlier MPL is a very good example.
Merry Christmas - just off to my bunker.
Last edited by MaxAOB; 18th May 2002 at 05:56.
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Caped Crusader and Max AoB - you are both absolutely right. Franchise pilots are manifestly cheaper than mainline pilots to employ. That, along with our other greater efficiencies make us cheaper. Land ASAP, you have put your finger on the real issue - you simply resent us on routes that you erroneously imagine are yours. You (BA) did not want them because you could not make any money on them. You are alas the victim of poor management and pilot greed. You may not like us but you will like easyJet on the routes even less - and that is what will happen if you continue down your current plan.
We at GB are a great asset to you and not a threat. Your own management sold off GO for peanuts and has now seen it sold for not much under £400 million. This new GO/easy package presents a real threat to us all, and you trying to attack the franchises is simply not where the battle is at. We at GB offer a fantastic service to you at mainline. We are not the enemy and resent being treated as such. We will never give in to the 'bully-boy' tactics being employed by BA/BALPA to gain routes that do not, and in most cases never have belonged, to you.
The current arrangement of us having gentle expansion (2 aircraft/year), primarily out of Gatwick, is the way to go. We will be a huge benefit to BA, and you in the meantime can get on with the job of fighting the low-cost guys.
We at GB are a great asset to you and not a threat. Your own management sold off GO for peanuts and has now seen it sold for not much under £400 million. This new GO/easy package presents a real threat to us all, and you trying to attack the franchises is simply not where the battle is at. We at GB offer a fantastic service to you at mainline. We are not the enemy and resent being treated as such. We will never give in to the 'bully-boy' tactics being employed by BA/BALPA to gain routes that do not, and in most cases never have belonged, to you.
The current arrangement of us having gentle expansion (2 aircraft/year), primarily out of Gatwick, is the way to go. We will be a huge benefit to BA, and you in the meantime can get on with the job of fighting the low-cost guys.
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CapedCrewsaider
This is not fact, I'm afraid. Do please check the BALPA private members T&C's database and you will discover that for the pay points that are realistic on Short Haul (ie. around 10 years service), BA is behind GB for for BASIC salary . In fact as a First Officer I am £100,000 cheaper for the 10 year period. My variable pay for this period will not make up the short fall by a long mile. Or are you not a BALPA member?
I'm really sorry I have to repeat myself. But we Short Haul pilots at BA are not more expensive. I am not foolish enough to print the figures (in case any of our colleagues are involved in divorce proceedings), but please change the record, look up the term solidarity in your dictionary and most importantly, resign as Flight Operations management and join BALPA, it'll safeguard your future!
Norman Stanley Fletcher
I agree, and my belief that if the business model that GB operates under were applied to BA Short Haul, then it too would be a great asset to British Airways. We are paid very similarly, despite what the Caped one is led to believe, so why can't we approach the whole SCOPE issue with less devisive diatribe?
BA pilots cost considerably more to employ than GB Airways pilots. This is fact. The Salaries may be not too far apart but your Hourly Flying rate, allowances and most importantly company pension contributions mean you cost BA in excess of £10,000 p.a. more than GB pays for iys pilots. Multiply this by say 200 pilots and that is £2 million off the bottom line. Note; GB pilots have a low company contribution money purchase pension scheme.
I'm really sorry I have to repeat myself. But we Short Haul pilots at BA are not more expensive. I am not foolish enough to print the figures (in case any of our colleagues are involved in divorce proceedings), but please change the record, look up the term solidarity in your dictionary and most importantly, resign as Flight Operations management and join BALPA, it'll safeguard your future!
Norman Stanley Fletcher
We at GB are a great asset to you and not a threat
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Land ASAP:
Once again you miss the point completely. It is not just what you take home that costs BA, It is the total package that defines crew costs. This must include pension contributions training costs etc. If you are a cadet then you have already cost BA a lot of money.
Correct me if I am wrong but is not your pension non-contributary by the pilots. (You can pay AVCs by choice).
BA put 25% of salary into a pension fund for BA pilots.
GB put 10% into a pension fund for GB pilots. This represents part of the difference in costs to the respective employers.
Also is it not true that if you wish you may subject to seniority elect to go Longhaul. This increases your earning potential considerably. GB pilots will never have this opportunity.
You cannot examine basic pay points and assume that this is the only cost to the employer. This is a simplistic view.
So as you have trouble understanding the basics, I am sorry I have to keep repeating myself but I repeat:
BA pilots cost considerably more to employ than GB Airways pilots. This is fact. The Salaries may be not too far apart but your Hourly Flying rate, allowances and most importantly company pension contributions mean you cost BA in excess of £10,000 p.a. more than GB pays for its pilots. Multiply this by say 200 pilots and that is £2 million off the bottom line. Note; GB pilots have a low company contribution money purchase pension scheme.
The real argument is not whether or not you are cheaper or more expensive it is to do with how you run your business. I am a BALPA member, not management but I will not let you or BALPA put me out of a job because you feel I ought to be paid more than the market will bear. The GB BALPA C.C are possibly more horrified at your unknown proposals than even the GB management.
I am quite happy to go to the basic payscales on the BALPA website adjust them with Hourly Flying Rate, Allowances, and pension contributions, ignoring your childish comments (what is wrong with you, grow up) on divorce proceedings and publish them here.
With regards solidarity, have you the BA pilots ever protested at the alleged part played by BA in the downfall of Laker, Air Europe etc. and its effect on the pilots and their famillies. Not to mention the Virgin dirty tricks campaign. Do you really think any British European Ryanair, EasyJet/Go, KLMuk, AIR 2000, Britannia, JMC, Monarch, Excel, etc. etc. pilot would let you do what you want to do to GB pilots i.e. claim a god given right to their work (and possibly eventually put the companies out of business).
Or do you think that if BA ceased to exist they might relish the opportunities created.
Welcome to the nasty world of real business, survival of the fittest, and leanest.
We could approach the whole S'CRAP issue less devisively if you at BA were kind enough to let the GB C.C. in on your little secret and at least tell the GB pilots what it is! Or is that just too much solidarity for you to stomach.
If the model low cost airlines operated to in terms of costs were applied to BA it would be extremely profitable indeed. Mainly due to its past and present corporate culture, of which you Land ASAP are part, it never will.
The fact you do not want to publish comparative all inclusive pay scales is very revealing. I know the truth, I am prepared to publish them, are you? You are hung up on payscales this is a smallish part of the argument. This is the point: you do not have a divine right to our routes and our aircraft.
Land ASAP as I said please examine the GB network and tell us all which routes are yours by divine right.
Once again you miss the point completely. It is not just what you take home that costs BA, It is the total package that defines crew costs. This must include pension contributions training costs etc. If you are a cadet then you have already cost BA a lot of money.
Correct me if I am wrong but is not your pension non-contributary by the pilots. (You can pay AVCs by choice).
BA put 25% of salary into a pension fund for BA pilots.
GB put 10% into a pension fund for GB pilots. This represents part of the difference in costs to the respective employers.
Also is it not true that if you wish you may subject to seniority elect to go Longhaul. This increases your earning potential considerably. GB pilots will never have this opportunity.
You cannot examine basic pay points and assume that this is the only cost to the employer. This is a simplistic view.
So as you have trouble understanding the basics, I am sorry I have to keep repeating myself but I repeat:
BA pilots cost considerably more to employ than GB Airways pilots. This is fact. The Salaries may be not too far apart but your Hourly Flying rate, allowances and most importantly company pension contributions mean you cost BA in excess of £10,000 p.a. more than GB pays for its pilots. Multiply this by say 200 pilots and that is £2 million off the bottom line. Note; GB pilots have a low company contribution money purchase pension scheme.
The real argument is not whether or not you are cheaper or more expensive it is to do with how you run your business. I am a BALPA member, not management but I will not let you or BALPA put me out of a job because you feel I ought to be paid more than the market will bear. The GB BALPA C.C are possibly more horrified at your unknown proposals than even the GB management.
I am quite happy to go to the basic payscales on the BALPA website adjust them with Hourly Flying Rate, Allowances, and pension contributions, ignoring your childish comments (what is wrong with you, grow up) on divorce proceedings and publish them here.
With regards solidarity, have you the BA pilots ever protested at the alleged part played by BA in the downfall of Laker, Air Europe etc. and its effect on the pilots and their famillies. Not to mention the Virgin dirty tricks campaign. Do you really think any British European Ryanair, EasyJet/Go, KLMuk, AIR 2000, Britannia, JMC, Monarch, Excel, etc. etc. pilot would let you do what you want to do to GB pilots i.e. claim a god given right to their work (and possibly eventually put the companies out of business).
Or do you think that if BA ceased to exist they might relish the opportunities created.
Welcome to the nasty world of real business, survival of the fittest, and leanest.
We could approach the whole S'CRAP issue less devisively if you at BA were kind enough to let the GB C.C. in on your little secret and at least tell the GB pilots what it is! Or is that just too much solidarity for you to stomach.
If the model low cost airlines operated to in terms of costs were applied to BA it would be extremely profitable indeed. Mainly due to its past and present corporate culture, of which you Land ASAP are part, it never will.
The fact you do not want to publish comparative all inclusive pay scales is very revealing. I know the truth, I am prepared to publish them, are you? You are hung up on payscales this is a smallish part of the argument. This is the point: you do not have a divine right to our routes and our aircraft.
Land ASAP as I said please examine the GB network and tell us all which routes are yours by divine right.
Last edited by CapedCrewsAider; 18th May 2002 at 20:57.
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Caped CrewsAider,
I shall correct you, you are wrong, the BA pension scheme(RIP) is a contributary one.
I do not have the exact figures to hand but if my memory is correct individual contributions range from 6 - 11.5%, depending on how big a divisor is applied to years of service when calculating final salary.
eg Contributions of 11.5% mean that years of service are divided by 42 and that is the percentage of final pensionable salary you get. Note pensionable salary is somewhat lower than actual salary for the purposes of this calculation.
I would accept that some of BA's pilots are significantly more expensive than those employed by the franchisees. I do not think however that those flying similar routes fall into this category.
With the demise of a FSS pension I rather suspect that any outflow of pilots from franchsees to BA will stop dead. Since this will make it easier for smaller airlines to recruit and retain aircrew I do not think that this will be good for anyones terms and conditions.
On the who earns most side of the argument (as opposed to the who costs most) then something not yet mentioned is time to command.
Two friends of mine who left military aviation 2 years ago have just moved into the left hand seat of a 737. They will earn way more than someone in a similar position who went to BA, indeed I suspect their lifetime earnings will more than offset the lack of an FSS.
Guess I screwed up!
I shall correct you, you are wrong, the BA pension scheme(RIP) is a contributary one.
I do not have the exact figures to hand but if my memory is correct individual contributions range from 6 - 11.5%, depending on how big a divisor is applied to years of service when calculating final salary.
eg Contributions of 11.5% mean that years of service are divided by 42 and that is the percentage of final pensionable salary you get. Note pensionable salary is somewhat lower than actual salary for the purposes of this calculation.
I would accept that some of BA's pilots are significantly more expensive than those employed by the franchisees. I do not think however that those flying similar routes fall into this category.
With the demise of a FSS pension I rather suspect that any outflow of pilots from franchsees to BA will stop dead. Since this will make it easier for smaller airlines to recruit and retain aircrew I do not think that this will be good for anyones terms and conditions.
On the who earns most side of the argument (as opposed to the who costs most) then something not yet mentioned is time to command.
Two friends of mine who left military aviation 2 years ago have just moved into the left hand seat of a 737. They will earn way more than someone in a similar position who went to BA, indeed I suspect their lifetime earnings will more than offset the lack of an FSS.
Guess I screwed up!
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I think it is an impossible task for us mere minions to decifer "REAL" flight crew costs from the little we can truly gather about franchise costs, BA overheads, costs to BA for Brand versus cost of franchise to GB for BA branding(despite an earlier post Easyjet, Ryanair and GO have spent 100's of millions on their branding over the past couple years, otherwise their profits would be nearer their revenue and triple that reported) turnaround costs, forced service providers for refueling/cleaning , pensions, etc.
What all us pilots need to acknowledge is that airline management and accountants are using us all as pawns against each other in their grand schemes of personal promotion. This year they might profess BA/LGW pilots are expensive, next year GB pilots. All the while we fight against each other instead of supporting each other. A pay rise for another outfit means better pay for us all over the coming years. BA have played LHR versus LGW pilots against each other in the same manner for years, why should this game not be as successful between franchises.
It is not about efficiency or BA flight crew take-home pay why routes have been lost, and if you believe that then you may oneday be steamrolled from behind also. I have warned that some of the BA posts will be angry out of frustration to prevent a derioration that is not borne out of our hard work. The real enemy lies in the hidden detail and the handshakes behind closed doors.
Pilots must realise that all our pay and conditions have continually declined for the last decade or more. It will continue to do so until we wake up to the fact that the average Joe's wages on the street have risen to above those in our lower ranks. We are no longer seen as a profession, and this is reflected in all our pay. Instead of worrying about your own tiny back-yards lets get the big picture and put an end to this ROT. If we were all overpaid I don't think we would waste so much time fighting over a few routes. And finally, ask yourselves why have those in our union that we have all paid full-time money to protect our terms and conditions have failed so miserably. It's time for change folks.
What all us pilots need to acknowledge is that airline management and accountants are using us all as pawns against each other in their grand schemes of personal promotion. This year they might profess BA/LGW pilots are expensive, next year GB pilots. All the while we fight against each other instead of supporting each other. A pay rise for another outfit means better pay for us all over the coming years. BA have played LHR versus LGW pilots against each other in the same manner for years, why should this game not be as successful between franchises.
It is not about efficiency or BA flight crew take-home pay why routes have been lost, and if you believe that then you may oneday be steamrolled from behind also. I have warned that some of the BA posts will be angry out of frustration to prevent a derioration that is not borne out of our hard work. The real enemy lies in the hidden detail and the handshakes behind closed doors.
Pilots must realise that all our pay and conditions have continually declined for the last decade or more. It will continue to do so until we wake up to the fact that the average Joe's wages on the street have risen to above those in our lower ranks. We are no longer seen as a profession, and this is reflected in all our pay. Instead of worrying about your own tiny back-yards lets get the big picture and put an end to this ROT. If we were all overpaid I don't think we would waste so much time fighting over a few routes. And finally, ask yourselves why have those in our union that we have all paid full-time money to protect our terms and conditions have failed so miserably. It's time for change folks.
Last edited by airrage; 19th May 2002 at 00:10.
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I can sense that there is a lot frustration amongst BA pilots at the way their management are treating them. What I can't see is how forcing GB to accept BA pilots flying GB's routes can solve any of this. Not only does it go against your own principles stated so far, but it will surely have an effect on career prospects here at GB.
It seems to me that the BA mangement are again trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
As for the "Who costs the most" debate, it is all a little pointless since it is not just crew costs that make the overheads of any operation and, although they might reduce company profit margins, they are hardly likely to cause a company to go in to a loss. If you take the mangement line that you may be paid so much that the company will go out of business, I would be rather surprised to find that you weren't management! I am not at all convinced that BA's T and Cs seeing an improvemnt will have an effect on me or any other airlines. If anything, BA denying their FSS to new entrants will have the effect of mobilising the workforce, since most of the loyalty BA gets from it's pilots seems to be as a result of said pension scheme. I think that BA's recruiters will be in for a big shock when they next start to look for DEPs (or are they planning to take them from all the Franchises still left??)
It seems to me that the BA mangement are again trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
As for the "Who costs the most" debate, it is all a little pointless since it is not just crew costs that make the overheads of any operation and, although they might reduce company profit margins, they are hardly likely to cause a company to go in to a loss. If you take the mangement line that you may be paid so much that the company will go out of business, I would be rather surprised to find that you weren't management! I am not at all convinced that BA's T and Cs seeing an improvemnt will have an effect on me or any other airlines. If anything, BA denying their FSS to new entrants will have the effect of mobilising the workforce, since most of the loyalty BA gets from it's pilots seems to be as a result of said pension scheme. I think that BA's recruiters will be in for a big shock when they next start to look for DEPs (or are they planning to take them from all the Franchises still left??)
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Interesting thread!
It started with <<Rumour has it that two of the fleet managers from BA visited the Beehive recently to discuss where to put their excess pilots. They apparently want some of their 737 crews from LGW to fly for GB under a kind of secondment deal-any one else heard about this? >>
Sources close to the front line agree that some BA managers did indeed visit GB but not in relation to the 737 operation.
My source tells me that BA's operation to the Caribbean and holiday Florida is under the spotlight and a visit was arranged to see if GB was able and ready to take over this work under a franchise commencing summer 03. BA want their pilots to fly the a/c until such time as GB pilots are 'approved' to take over. The proposal is for a normal BA crew with one GB captain on each flight (to gain LH exposure/experience until the CAA deems GB pilots to be 'up to speed'). It is believed that the BA CC is hopping mad and that the GB CC is being kept in the dark by GB who have assured BA that no additional remuneration will be required by GB pilots, thus allowing GB to submit a low 'quote' for the work.
It started with <<Rumour has it that two of the fleet managers from BA visited the Beehive recently to discuss where to put their excess pilots. They apparently want some of their 737 crews from LGW to fly for GB under a kind of secondment deal-any one else heard about this? >>
Sources close to the front line agree that some BA managers did indeed visit GB but not in relation to the 737 operation.
My source tells me that BA's operation to the Caribbean and holiday Florida is under the spotlight and a visit was arranged to see if GB was able and ready to take over this work under a franchise commencing summer 03. BA want their pilots to fly the a/c until such time as GB pilots are 'approved' to take over. The proposal is for a normal BA crew with one GB captain on each flight (to gain LH exposure/experience until the CAA deems GB pilots to be 'up to speed'). It is believed that the BA CC is hopping mad and that the GB CC is being kept in the dark by GB who have assured BA that no additional remuneration will be required by GB pilots, thus allowing GB to submit a low 'quote' for the work.
Lordy! If next in line is right, we'll have the whole BA flight crew on our backs saying we've nicked all their trade! I wonder what aircraft/routes we'll be "given"? Perhaps we can take over an office block in Jubilee House as well ....... we could do with some more parking spaces.
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OK, so I admit that BA having excess pilots was a bit wide of the mark, but if what next says has it's basis in fact I can see why the BA CC would be less than impressed. Now I think of it though, it all starts to make sense. There has, for quite a while now, been the feeling at GB that BA might try to put some LH leisure routes our way (I would have thought a few A330s would do nicely myself!!).
If this is just the tip of the iceberg BALPA will have divided loyalties in the extreme. Perhaps it would be good idea for the BA CC and GB CC to get together and found out what is going on. Otherwise the management will be running rings round both of them.
Any one else heard about th LH Franchise as well?
If this is just the tip of the iceberg BALPA will have divided loyalties in the extreme. Perhaps it would be good idea for the BA CC and GB CC to get together and found out what is going on. Otherwise the management will be running rings round both of them.
Any one else heard about th LH Franchise as well?
330 - what a machine! Now that would be nice - 2 weeks LH and 2 weeks SH per month on a dual type rating!!! Perhaps we could only do 1 TFS a week with a 330 as well .... that would make people happy!
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GB Long (er) Haul
I think this may be the signal to start a new thread but I can confirm that a few of our GB-management colleagues are in discussion with BA about "Florida" & "Caribbean" routes, primarily those previously operated by "JMC/AMC". (However, GB are not the only airline interested)...
Indeed there was a meeting at Waterside today to discuss said subject. Managers from both sides were present..
And finally:-
Whilst the above is "fact" a little bit of fun can be found at
http://www.geocities.com/flycx/airlinersfancyba.htm
(and yes, I know its been doctored!) - the only thing missing is the GB logo below the cockpit....
WaspsNest002p.
"You ain't seen me, right?"
Indeed there was a meeting at Waterside today to discuss said subject. Managers from both sides were present..
And finally:-
Whilst the above is "fact" a little bit of fun can be found at
http://www.geocities.com/flycx/airlinersfancyba.htm
(and yes, I know its been doctored!) - the only thing missing is the GB logo below the cockpit....
WaspsNest002p.
"You ain't seen me, right?"
Big Dog's:
I would just like to comment very briefly on your "BALPA split loyalties" comment. I have sadly been involved in two such affairs and on both occasions (you will be astonished to learn) the big guys won!
I would just like to comment very briefly on your "BALPA split loyalties" comment. I have sadly been involved in two such affairs and on both occasions (you will be astonished to learn) the big guys won!
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Well Howdy Jaydubbleuh!
The question for BALPA is, of course; are the BA management and BA CC in agreement on how to proceed? We at GB know that we are not too significant if we get swallowed up by BA (a little like our friends at CityFlyer), but if BA intend to hand out routes to us and help us to expand, I can't see BA CC being anything other than very unimpressed!
I could be very naive however and the truth could be more like both the BA CC and BA Management are in cahoots..........if I was a BA pilot I'd want to know the answers before I saw BA start to hand over Long Haul leisure routes such as those mentioned by next to a Franchise like GB.
As has been suggested here, perhaps the whole Eurofleet LGW/GB Airways thing is just a diversion. Stranger things have happended!
The question for BALPA is, of course; are the BA management and BA CC in agreement on how to proceed? We at GB know that we are not too significant if we get swallowed up by BA (a little like our friends at CityFlyer), but if BA intend to hand out routes to us and help us to expand, I can't see BA CC being anything other than very unimpressed!
I could be very naive however and the truth could be more like both the BA CC and BA Management are in cahoots..........if I was a BA pilot I'd want to know the answers before I saw BA start to hand over Long Haul leisure routes such as those mentioned by next to a Franchise like GB.
As has been suggested here, perhaps the whole Eurofleet LGW/GB Airways thing is just a diversion. Stranger things have happended!
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The aforementioned JMC/AML routes were only ever operated by JMC cabin crew, the flight crew were BA mainline. Any attempt to hand these routes over to GB has STRIKE written all over it, and indeed would be one of the few things that would actually motivate our long haul brethren to down tools. A similar scheme has been tried before with the intention of setting up a seperate longhaul seniority list just for the 777s employed for that work. It was resoundingly rejected. I don't believe even our managers would be stupid enough to try it on again. If they want to run an A330 on those routes then fine, but we've got several hundred A320 pilots and as many 777 guys with a vested interest in keeping that flying within BA. A crazy scheme like next in lines suggestion would be playing with fire.