New Thames Airport for London
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I have lived:
- Under the Westerly approach to LHR 1979-1984 (inc Concorde and the older generation of jets!) There was also a railway line at the bottom of the garden!
- Under the Westerly climb out from LTN 1988-2002 (more night flights than LHR!)
- Under the Easterly climb out from LHR 2012-2013
- Currently living under the northerly London turn-in over Finchley area
- cars
- lorries reversing
- emergency vehicle sirens
- children/youths/drunks in the street outside
- parties in the neighbours house
- people kocking on the door to sell me things or desirous of converting me to their religion
- refuse collection trucks at 05:30 are closer and louder than a/c overhead AND the truck is around longer.
Excellent post, PAXboy!
Let's face it, living on a main road must be much worse than under the flightpath: 24 hours continual noise, no morning or evening respite, no silence after 2300, more than 16 vehicles passing between 0400 and 0600.
If we're honest, it's a good deal under the flightpath, especially as aircraft are now so much quieter.
Trust me, am a flightpath resident of many years standing.
Paxing All Over The World
Thanks Fdf, I should have added that the new residents in the flat below us - when she's on an early shift, she leaves at 05:30 and I hear their front door open and close. That's life.
It would be fascinating to be able to put cameras and dB meters outside a HACANist's house for a week. Currently, they only measure the a/c ...
It would be fascinating to be able to put cameras and dB meters outside a HACANist's house for a week. Currently, they only measure the a/c ...
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I lived 1977-9 in a (single-glazed) apartment in Kew Gardens. A passing Trident, 707, VC10 would render the TV inaudible for ten seconds; 1-11, Caravelle, Viscount twice that. Concorde for three quarters of a minute.
Folks today haven't a clue about real aircraft noise
Folks today haven't a clue about real aircraft noise
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Disclaimer: I live in the North East of England and have no relatives who live or work in the South East therefore have no bias towards the situation.
I thought I would post some of my comments on this issue.
I personally think that the way in which the political parties are using the South East airport issue is appalling. They are using this debate as a political weapon to win votes and parliamentary seats, not putting the interests of the country and more importantly, the future prospects of the country at the forefront. One look at the constituency map around Heathrow says it all...
All we ever seem to do in this country is set up commissions/inquiries or whatever and a final report is produced which pretty much tells us exactly what we knew at the start. Then, politicians decide they don’t like what is in these reports and choose to ignore them anyway.
In July 2012, China announced that they would build 82 new airports and expand 101 current airports before the end of 2015. Now, granted that China is a much much bigger country with more people who arguably have no human rights at all, this still a huge leap compared to what we in the UK will ever achieve.
Another example: Dubai. Concourse A was opened in January of this year and in the first month of operations handled nearly 600,000 passengers. Over the year that’s a potential of another 7.2 million passengers, just over 10% of LHR’s current capacity. There is also a Concourse D already in the planning which is expected to open in 2015. Compare this to the UK, and more specifically T5. As another poster mentioned, it took 15 years to finally get T5 open.
It’s things like this which make me not proud to be British. We are losing out hugely to other countries and we quite frankly seem to be doing nothing about it. Other countries must look at us and think that we have no ambition whatsoever.
I personally think that a third runway needs to be started soon at LHR (as in the next year or so) and a second at Gatwick to be constructed as soon as the curfew passes if we want to even attempt to catch up to other countries in the world. But of course there is no way that will happen. I’m 18 and it honestly wouldn’t shock me if in we are in the same position (that is with no future runway/airport expansion planned) by the time I turn 25.
I also just cannot see this airport on the opposite side of London working. As someone commented before, why do 202 out of the 300 top UK companies have their headquarters within a 25 mile radius of Heathrow. It’s not because the land is cheap, because it isn’t; it is because they know that their top executives and managers can travel down the road and jump on a flight to other offices across the world. I’m sure they would love having to travel over an hour to get to this new proposed airport. Then there’s the 10,000’s who are going to be on the dole; has Boris factored that in to the already astronomical cost of the project to start with? I just don’t see the logic whatsoever.
Anyway they’re my comments, no doubt they’ll probably get torn apart by someone
I thought I would post some of my comments on this issue.
I personally think that the way in which the political parties are using the South East airport issue is appalling. They are using this debate as a political weapon to win votes and parliamentary seats, not putting the interests of the country and more importantly, the future prospects of the country at the forefront. One look at the constituency map around Heathrow says it all...
All we ever seem to do in this country is set up commissions/inquiries or whatever and a final report is produced which pretty much tells us exactly what we knew at the start. Then, politicians decide they don’t like what is in these reports and choose to ignore them anyway.
In July 2012, China announced that they would build 82 new airports and expand 101 current airports before the end of 2015. Now, granted that China is a much much bigger country with more people who arguably have no human rights at all, this still a huge leap compared to what we in the UK will ever achieve.
Another example: Dubai. Concourse A was opened in January of this year and in the first month of operations handled nearly 600,000 passengers. Over the year that’s a potential of another 7.2 million passengers, just over 10% of LHR’s current capacity. There is also a Concourse D already in the planning which is expected to open in 2015. Compare this to the UK, and more specifically T5. As another poster mentioned, it took 15 years to finally get T5 open.
It’s things like this which make me not proud to be British. We are losing out hugely to other countries and we quite frankly seem to be doing nothing about it. Other countries must look at us and think that we have no ambition whatsoever.
I personally think that a third runway needs to be started soon at LHR (as in the next year or so) and a second at Gatwick to be constructed as soon as the curfew passes if we want to even attempt to catch up to other countries in the world. But of course there is no way that will happen. I’m 18 and it honestly wouldn’t shock me if in we are in the same position (that is with no future runway/airport expansion planned) by the time I turn 25.
I also just cannot see this airport on the opposite side of London working. As someone commented before, why do 202 out of the 300 top UK companies have their headquarters within a 25 mile radius of Heathrow. It’s not because the land is cheap, because it isn’t; it is because they know that their top executives and managers can travel down the road and jump on a flight to other offices across the world. I’m sure they would love having to travel over an hour to get to this new proposed airport. Then there’s the 10,000’s who are going to be on the dole; has Boris factored that in to the already astronomical cost of the project to start with? I just don’t see the logic whatsoever.
Anyway they’re my comments, no doubt they’ll probably get torn apart by someone
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Heathrow Noise Issues
So long as a two bed terrace house in Barnes costs a million quid, it's very hard to take the noise issues seriously. If it was that dreadful living under the flight path, house prices would reflect the lack of demand.
They don't and so there clearly isn't a serious problem.
They don't and so there clearly isn't a serious problem.
A Runyonesque Character
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Anyway they’re my comments, no doubt they’ll probably get torn apart by someone
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Skippy:
Spoken like a man in a high income bracket sir. Tens of thousands of blue collar workers would lose their jobs with a LHR closure. I assume when all have to move like you did, there will be affordable schools and housing?
Spoken like a man in a high income bracket sir. Tens of thousands of blue collar workers would lose their jobs with a LHR closure. I assume when all have to move like you did, there will be affordable schools and housing?
Fairdeal:
No one has the money for this, Churchillian salutes notwithstanding, it's also not a good use of public money.
No one has the time for costly legal challenges, public enquiries and years of litigation (expect top lawyers, of course).
It's true, Silver, you really don't have any answers!
No one has the money for this, Churchillian salutes notwithstanding, it's also not a good use of public money.
No one has the time for costly legal challenges, public enquiries and years of litigation (expect top lawyers, of course).
It's true, Silver, you really don't have any answers!
As to the 15 years of planning enquiries, to hell with that too. You just say to the people, "its done". "Get over it, the decision has been made." "The first sods of earth will be turned tomorrow." There - it took 30 seconds, not 15 years.
You seem to forget that the 15-year planning circus is simply a method for indecisive and incompetent politicians to evade the consequences of their decisions. Firstly, it kicks the decision into the long-grass. Secondly, they can blame the planning committee, and say it was nothing to do with the government.
It is about time that politicians took bold decision and did something for the nation, instead of trying to be nice to everyone and playing to the cameras. Decisions need to be made.** And whatever you think of the guy, Boris Johnson is one of the few politician who will put his career on the line and say: "just do it".
** Blair and Brown mumbled about nuclear power for 13 years, and did absolutely nothing. Nothing, except sell off our nuclear power station manufacturer - Westinghouse - and so now we are going to get a Chinese nuclear power station instead. Anyone here think that was a good decision? Hands up if you do. Apparently, they are going to rename Hinckley Point and call it Fukushima instead...
Blair and Brown prevaricated on this difficult decision to be popular and get reelected, not for the good of the nation. Only now, some 16 years later, has the decision at last been made. However, the result of this indecision is that there is now a 5- or 10-year gap where we will not have enough generation capacity, and the UK's lights WILL go out. No doubt about it, we will have shortages, especially in the winter. And people will die because of this. Thanks, Blair and Brown, you have deliberately stored up national chaos for the future, just so you can be nice to the electorate.
Silver
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It would be fascinating to be able to put cameras and dB meters outside a HACANist's house for a week. Currently, they only measure the a/c ...
I lived 1977-9 in a (single-glazed) apartment in Kew Gardens. A passing Trident, 707, VC10 would render the TV inaudible for ten seconds; 1-11, Caravelle, Viscount twice that. Concorde for three quarters of a minute.
Folks today haven't a clue about real aircraft noise
Folks today haven't a clue about real aircraft noise
So long as a two bed terrace house in Barnes costs a million quid, it's very hard to take the noise issues seriously. If it was that dreadful living under the flight path, house prices would reflect the lack of demand.
They don't and so there clearly isn't a serious problem
They don't and so there clearly isn't a serious problem
Why should anyone do that pallan? You make perfectly good sense
Would take issue with you on just one issue: your comment on the constituencies around Heathrow.
One look at the constituency map around Heathrow says it all...
At the next election, marginal seats will change hands on issues such as the cost of living and the economy, and whether UKIP can take enough votes away from the incumbents to let in challengers, it’s as simple as that.
Of the seats around LHR, 1 is safe Libdem (Twickenham), 3 are safe Con (Maidenhead, Spelthorne and Windsor), 4 are safe Labour (Feltham and Heston, Hayes and Harlington, Slough and Southall)
Just 2 are marginal Con: Brentford and Isleworth (Con-Lab marginal), with many airport workers; and Richmond Park (Con-Libdem marginal), where LHR expansion is a non-issue because both Zac Goldsmith, the sitting MP, and his Libdem challenger will be anti-LHR expansion.
Since we have just spent £300 billion on Merchant Bankers (cockney rhyming slang), to bail out the incompetent - I really do think we have the money. The BofE could Q.E. £50 billion tomorrow - and it would do a hell of a lot more good to spend that money on 21st century infrastructure, than bailing out the criminals who brought the City to its knees.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 19th Dec 2013 at 19:04.
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@Pallan.
We could do it quite easily - just like we did the railways or the canals in an earlier era.
Simple
Abolish all human right legislation including any rights for compensation.
Create government rights to forcibly move people/firms/factories
Scrap all health and safety legislation, workers rights etc.
Make it an offense against the state to report/publicise any fatality/injury.
Scrap all rights to query and challenge government actions though the courts.
Abolish the right to vote for thick and stupid citizens (that's most of them).
Anyone who complains - stick them up against the wall and shoot them.
I've worked in China and also in places where a project director was under threat of execution if the project was delayed and late.
It works - though you might not like it in reality if you came face to face with it. Scaffolding collapses kills umpteen - they bulldozer away the remains along with the stiffs and have it up and repaired the next day - in the UK the H&S executive would be having multiple orgasms.
As it is, the UK is the most overpopulated place in the EU bar the Netherlands in terms of persons/square mile. So anywhere you want to put any infrastructure is going to cause a lot of people to be annoyed and all are going to do their utmost to frustrate anything - 'cos their rights are being offended innit'
Compare today's population of the UK (70million) to when we were building the railways (10 million in 1800) and the canals (approx 7 million in late1700's).
We could do it quite easily - just like we did the railways or the canals in an earlier era.
Simple
Abolish all human right legislation including any rights for compensation.
Create government rights to forcibly move people/firms/factories
Scrap all health and safety legislation, workers rights etc.
Make it an offense against the state to report/publicise any fatality/injury.
Scrap all rights to query and challenge government actions though the courts.
Abolish the right to vote for thick and stupid citizens (that's most of them).
Anyone who complains - stick them up against the wall and shoot them.
I've worked in China and also in places where a project director was under threat of execution if the project was delayed and late.
It works - though you might not like it in reality if you came face to face with it. Scaffolding collapses kills umpteen - they bulldozer away the remains along with the stiffs and have it up and repaired the next day - in the UK the H&S executive would be having multiple orgasms.
As it is, the UK is the most overpopulated place in the EU bar the Netherlands in terms of persons/square mile. So anywhere you want to put any infrastructure is going to cause a lot of people to be annoyed and all are going to do their utmost to frustrate anything - 'cos their rights are being offended innit'
Compare today's population of the UK (70million) to when we were building the railways (10 million in 1800) and the canals (approx 7 million in late1700's).
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Just 2 are marginal Con: Brentford and Isleworth (Con-Lab marginal), with many airport workers; and Richmond Park (Con-Libdem marginal), where LHR expansion is a non-issue because both Zac Goldsmith, the sitting MP, and his Libdem challenger will be anti-LHR expansion
Angie Bray in Ealing ?
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If these well-paid blue-collar workers cannot be bothered to move 50 miles, they don't deserve a job.
Most of the airline pilots I know, even the younger ones, well, they may have debts but they're right up their on the income scale in comparison with most.
In the UK, the country you've apparently never been to, most loaders were dumped onto third party handlers who pay poor wages. Servisair, Swissport and Menzies are in a race to the bottom with Ts and Cs. The only in house loaders nowadays are a few legacy loaders at LHR and a handful of minor players.
Funny thing, if you're really a captain for a real airline, I would have thought you would know that.....just saying. I mean it's common knowledge in the industry.
and getting laid of for half the year,
Since we have just spent £300 billion on Merchant Bankers
Paxing All Over The World
silverstrata
No, none of us forgot. It is a statement that has been repeated in every thread on this subject that I can recall, perhaps because I am the one who often says it!
Indeed - because he has gold in the bank and friends in high places. When he is no longer mayor, he will just pick up a raft of Directorships and choose from the people fawning at his feet.
You seem to forget that the 15-year planning circus is simply a method for indecisive and incompetent politicians to evade the consequences of their decisions. Firstly, it kicks the decision into the long-grass. Secondly, they can blame the planning committee, and say it was nothing to do with the government.
It is about time that politicians took bold decision and did something for the nation, instead of trying to be nice to everyone and playing to the cameras. Decisions need to be made.** And whatever you think of the guy, Boris Johnson is one of the few politician who will put his career on the line and say: "just do it".
Last edited by PAXboy; 20th Dec 2013 at 02:57. Reason: typographical
I don't agree with the argument about house-prices, or the fact that the airport has been there longer.
Any house will have its disadvantages, and apart from in Colnbrook, aircraft noise probably isn't a knock-out issue for many.
However, the quality of life for most Londoners could be improved by getting rid of aircraft noise. It might not be so beneficial as getting rid of air pollution or traffic noise, or doubling the capacity of the underground, but it would help.
Any house will have its disadvantages, and apart from in Colnbrook, aircraft noise probably isn't a knock-out issue for many.
However, the quality of life for most Londoners could be improved by getting rid of aircraft noise. It might not be so beneficial as getting rid of air pollution or traffic noise, or doubling the capacity of the underground, but it would help.
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Let's be honest, if you want the quiet life then you don't live in one of the most vibrant cities on earth, you leave the bright lights, bars, clubs, theatres and high rises and move down to the coast or at least to somewhere that's a lot greener and quieter!
We all make decisions in life, and I'm sure the people that live in London are quite happy to have the employment prospects that come with having some of the world's largest companies in your city. Trouble is, those companies want connectivity to the world, and without LHR they don't have that.
London is a wonderful city, but peaceful and quiet it is not!
We all make decisions in life, and I'm sure the people that live in London are quite happy to have the employment prospects that come with having some of the world's largest companies in your city. Trouble is, those companies want connectivity to the world, and without LHR they don't have that.
London is a wonderful city, but peaceful and quiet it is not!
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An excellent post.
Unless you live really near the airport - and it has been there a long time - I would have thought that in the answer to the question, 'What annoyances are there living in Greater London?' I would expect aircraft noise to be rather low on the list.
And conversely, if you asked people from elsewhere, 'Why don't you move to London?' I would expect the same lack of priority to that issue.
Unless you live really near the airport - and it has been there a long time - I would have thought that in the answer to the question, 'What annoyances are there living in Greater London?' I would expect aircraft noise to be rather low on the list.
And conversely, if you asked people from elsewhere, 'Why don't you move to London?' I would expect the same lack of priority to that issue.
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@Pallan.
We could do it quite easily - just like we did the railways or the canals in an earlier era.
Simple
Abolish all human right legislation including any rights for compensation.
Create government rights to forcibly move people/firms/factories
Scrap all health and safety legislation, workers rights etc.
Make it an offense against the state to report/publicise any fatality/injury.
Scrap all rights to query and challenge government actions though the courts.
Abolish the right to vote for thick and stupid citizens (that's most of them).
Anyone who complains - stick them up against the wall and shoot them.
I've worked in China and also in places where a project director was under threat of execution if the project was delayed and late.
It works - though you might not like it in reality if you came face to face with it. Scaffolding collapses kills umpteen - they bulldozer away the remains along with the stiffs and have it up and repaired the next day - in the UK the H&S executive would be having multiple orgasms.
As it is, the UK is the most overpopulated place in the EU bar the Netherlands in terms of persons/square mile. So anywhere you want to put any infrastructure is going to cause a lot of people to be annoyed and all are going to do their utmost to frustrate anything - 'cos their rights are being offended innit'
Compare today's population of the UK (70million) to when we were building the railways (10 million in 1800) and the canals (approx 7 million in late1700's).
We could do it quite easily - just like we did the railways or the canals in an earlier era.
Simple
Abolish all human right legislation including any rights for compensation.
Create government rights to forcibly move people/firms/factories
Scrap all health and safety legislation, workers rights etc.
Make it an offense against the state to report/publicise any fatality/injury.
Scrap all rights to query and challenge government actions though the courts.
Abolish the right to vote for thick and stupid citizens (that's most of them).
Anyone who complains - stick them up against the wall and shoot them.
I've worked in China and also in places where a project director was under threat of execution if the project was delayed and late.
It works - though you might not like it in reality if you came face to face with it. Scaffolding collapses kills umpteen - they bulldozer away the remains along with the stiffs and have it up and repaired the next day - in the UK the H&S executive would be having multiple orgasms.
As it is, the UK is the most overpopulated place in the EU bar the Netherlands in terms of persons/square mile. So anywhere you want to put any infrastructure is going to cause a lot of people to be annoyed and all are going to do their utmost to frustrate anything - 'cos their rights are being offended innit'
Compare today's population of the UK (70million) to when we were building the railways (10 million in 1800) and the canals (approx 7 million in late1700's).
Justine Greening in Putney ?
Angie Bray in Ealing ?
Angie Bray in Ealing ?
Abolish the right to vote for thick and stupid citizens (that's most of them).
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 23rd Dec 2013 at 21:16. Reason: typo
Paxing All Over The World
c52
Nor do I - the airport has been there (commercially) since 1945 so it is more than well know. if people buy under the flight path? caveat emptor.
Road noise and it's attendant pollution would make the biggest difference. When I lived in Shepherd's Bush (1979-1984) the railway at the bottom of the garden blanked out sound for nearly a minute per cargo train. Aircraft ( a lot noiser then) did not impinge anything like as much.
I don't agree with the argument about house-prices, or the fact that the airport has been there longer.
However, the quality of life for most Londoners could be improved by getting rid of aircraft noise. It might not be so beneficial as getting rid of air pollution or traffic noise, or doubling the capacity of the underground, but it would help.
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Skippy:
You are on a different planet sir, you really, really are.
Most of the airline pilots I know, even the younger ones, well, they may have debts but they're right up their on the income scale in comparison with most.
You are on a different planet sir, you really, really are.
Most of the airline pilots I know, even the younger ones, well, they may have debts but they're right up their on the income scale in comparison with most.
No, Skippy, it is you who is on a different planet. Piloting is not a career anymore - your terms and conditions will be worse than a fair-ground operative can expect, and your salary less than a taxi driver.
Try living on $20k a year:
Professional Pilot Salaries - The Truth About the Profession
Try earning less than a taxi driver:
Low Pay One of Many Difficulties Facing Regional Pilots | Fox News
Try earning $10 an hour (the $20 here is flying hour , not hours worked):
The U.S. Airline Pilots Who Barely Make Minimum Wage - Skift
Try living as trailer-trash in a car park:
The Parking Lot Where Pilots Sleep - WSJ.com
Try living 25 to an apartment:
Airline Pilots Who Commute - Articles - Executive Travel
And the same happens in Europe, with the low-standards airlines. Tell me, Skip, how much of your annual salary would be left over, when you are laid off for 4 months each year, and then told to relocate 2,000 km at your own expense - you and all your family. And don't expect to settle in Lithuania for more than a couple of years before the next move - to Greece perhaps....
Sacked Ryanair pilot claims O'Leary became aggressive - Independent.ie
Most of us, Skip, are just hanging on by the fingertips, and looking for a career with better prospects. Refuse collection is looking like a good option at present -
stable job,
always demand for your services,
regular work pattern,
no overnights,
you can take a flask of coffee with you,
you can stop off for a Dunkin Donut,
you can have a piss without asking,
no test every six months,
no medical every year,
not confined to a telephone-box for 14 hours,
nobody recording and replaying everything you do during every day you work,
no relocation to another state with four days notice - at your own expense,
no furlough for four months each year with no pay,
no strip-search twice a day, including belt, shoes and everything bar your pants and vest,
nobody fondling your bo!!ocks every day just because they can,
no living in a trailer in a car-park,
no living 25 to an apartment,
salary paid into a bank, instead of cash,
basic health insurance included,
pension included - a pension, remember them?
What is there NOT to like, about refuse collection?
Silver
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Silver,
Falling salaries has been endemic accross the USA for years, and salaries are barely higher than 1970s levels. Am often quite shocked when having an American salary quoted and doing the dollar-pound conversion. Of course, there's a minority doing very well, but the gap is ever-widening and the middle classes are being left behind. The so-called "American dream" is now a myth.
Aparently the FR pilot was on 124,000 euros/year, what's that, about £100,000? Still lousy treatment though.
Your talk of "refuse collection" brought back nostalgic memories, ha ha. Was a dustman for a few weeks one summer in the 1970s, no wheely bins outside the houses then....in those days it was down the sides of houses and lift up metal bins. Halcyon days? Eventually graduated to the parks department.
Falling salaries has been endemic accross the USA for years, and salaries are barely higher than 1970s levels. Am often quite shocked when having an American salary quoted and doing the dollar-pound conversion. Of course, there's a minority doing very well, but the gap is ever-widening and the middle classes are being left behind. The so-called "American dream" is now a myth.
Aparently the FR pilot was on 124,000 euros/year, what's that, about £100,000? Still lousy treatment though.
Your talk of "refuse collection" brought back nostalgic memories, ha ha. Was a dustman for a few weeks one summer in the 1970s, no wheely bins outside the houses then....in those days it was down the sides of houses and lift up metal bins. Halcyon days? Eventually graduated to the parks department.
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While silverstrata's post is hardly relevant to the topic thread, his sentiments are a consequence of market economics. However, it is not clear if he has decided to become a dustman in preference to a pilot. If the job satisfaction of the former is as good as the latter, I'm sure he would have done it by now.
Nobody in this thread seems to be mentioning how to get to this island in the Thames (well actually, they might have done, but I've just realised I'd have to review 64 pages to confirm this). It would cost a fortune to build a new rail and road connection - and don't say 'extend Crossrail' as that will already be rammed with commuters, including those who have lost jobs at LHR, and can't afford to move to the new airport.
Nobody in this thread seems to be mentioning how to get to this island in the Thames (well actually, they might have done, but I've just realised I'd have to review 64 pages to confirm this). It would cost a fortune to build a new rail and road connection - and don't say 'extend Crossrail' as that will already be rammed with commuters, including those who have lost jobs at LHR, and can't afford to move to the new airport.