New Thames Airport for London
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Even if the estuary airport (or any other greenfield site) is the preferred option, LHR expansion is STILL needed to take up the slack in the 20 years or so until it opens.
Either we expand Heathrow, or we fudge at LGW, or more realistically at STN. There will be no FBI for reasons already discussed, and in the 1000/1 outside chance it did happen, the brochure says it could be built just as fast as another runway at LHR - and I, for one, believe the brochure. Don't you?
never used Terminal 5
How many other European airports will serve most of their passengers in facilities this modern? Go into the Schiphol arrivals hall and look up before you go down onto the trains. Actually looking quite tatty!
It would be instructive to know how many flights (scheduled) are being turned down by LHR on a daily basis due to capacity limitations. I'd hazard a guess that in excess of 200 flights a day are being denied access to LHR due to "capacity constraints".
Question is - what are you going to do about it? Look at the based LH from LGW - mainly to the Caribbean, because lovely though these islands are, they do not generate massive yields compared to the US Eastern seaboard. Those that do (GCM etc) still operate from LHR.
You can talk about ideal all you want, but London is London, and not Hong Kong, which doesn't just have serious land constraints, it also has a centralised planning system resulting in only one airport. Yet they still haven't worked out how to redevelop the old Kai Tak, which should be worth much more per acre than LHR.
Bristol was axed as the same aircraft could make way more money flying fifteen minutes further along the M4.
Regardless of equipment, it makes logical sense for the US carriers to feed their hubs from UK regions, just as it does for EK to feed DXB from a similar network of airports.
Yet whatever challenges LHR faces, they are tiny compared to the big shiny new airport.
So I can only ask the same questions I asked last week:
1) How exactly is this place going to be laid out? Looks like 2 sets of runways pointing straight at each other.
2) How will you pay for Fantasy Island by releasing money from developing Heathrow, which is a private asset? Sounds like a big Ponzi scheme to me, and although there are plenty of other things I'd like to have a go at Boris about this week, he shouldn't be spouting this sort of thing without a challenge.
Maybe Silver has the answers?
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jabird
That is a typical layout for many airports - it depends on the prevailing winds. If you look at the runway layouts (via a search engine) of JFK and SFO, there are two examples of catering for wind directions more than just the prevailing and reciprocal.
Whether this would be suitable for the Thames Estury - someone will be along shortly to tell us!
How exactly is this place going to be laid out? Looks like 2 sets of runways pointing straight at each other.
Whether this would be suitable for the Thames Estury - someone will be along shortly to tell us!
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If you look at the runway layouts (via a search engine) of JFK and SFO
FBI looks like 2x (1 + 1 ), with a runway west of the terminal complex and another east, only offset from each other by maybe 200m.
I suppose you could use one for arrivals and one for departures, then reciprocate, but without seeing a detailed diagram, it is hard to grasp how it would actually work.
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I'd hazard a guess that the 2 runways either side of the central terminal area are for arrivals. They look to be spaced sufficiently apart to allow independent parallel runway operations. The 2 other pairs of runways which appear to point directly at the terminal area are obviously departure runways only with the take-off direction being away from the central terminal area. All in all, quite a sensible design, which knowing this country will probably mean it will never get built! 
The 2 other pairs of runways which appear to point directly at the terminal area are obviously departure runways only with the take-off direction being away from the central terminal area
Surely it is:
on the four central runways, you land towards the terminal and take off away from the terminal.
the outside runways can be used equally for arrivals and departures.
on the four central runways, you land towards the terminal and take off away from the terminal.
the outside runways can be used equally for arrivals and departures.
Interesting to see that Gensler, who are reportedly the architects behind the latest Testrad/London Britannia Airport six-runways-pointing-at-the-terminal project, make no reference to this lunatic proposal on their own website, but instead feature their original eminently more sensible four-runway scheme:
Gensler?s Vision for Floating Airport Positions London for Future Challenges | Gensler
Gensler?s Vision for Floating Airport Positions London for Future Challenges | Gensler
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"Hong Kong, which doesn't just have serious land constraints"
have you ever been there??
it's packed man, packed....
they built a new island for the airport as there wasn't enough flat land available
have you ever been there??
it's packed man, packed....
they built a new island for the airport as there wasn't enough flat land available
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"Hong Kong, which doesn't just have serious land constraints"
have you ever been there??
have you ever been there??
I'm not aware of any cases of whole airports (as opposed to runway extensions on established sites) being "voluntarily" located in offshore locations, when flat undeveloped land is available somewhere else, as it is in abundance at Stansted.
Of course there will be unhappy locals, but they are a minor force compared with maritime geology, and Stansted is still on the table, as is Gatters, as is LHR3, as is do nothing, all of these in preference to FBI.
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jabird
Sorry, I misunderstood your question, as I had not seen that particular diagram - ony the twin parallel layout.
I simply don't understand how you can have 2+2 runways pointing right at each other.
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Sorry, I misunderstood your question, as I had not seen that particular diagram - ony the twin parallel layout.
So with that latest rendering from Gensler, I'm seeing 3 terminal areas. How do you serve that from dry land? One rail / maglev line, but 3 stops/ Fine - but you won't divert through services onto it. So will you have a central station and then a shuttle to each terminal group, which itself might have multiple stations for each stop on the toast rack?
That would mean people arriving by car will have to park on shore, then transfer to the central bit, then transfer again to the toast rack.
One thing is for certain - if LCY was to remain open when this thing opens, they will be laughing all the way!
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The article in Flight Global suggest that the land under which LHR is currently located could fetch $45B from land developers and support 300,000 people in apartments, condos, etc. How realistic is that? If feasible, that would certainly help with the building costs of the new airport.
London Thames Estuary airport plans unveiled
London Thames Estuary airport plans unveiled
Why do they keep putting forward proposals that have runways ending in a line of parked aircraft, or in terminal buildings?
Do these people understand nothing?
Have they not learned anything from the past 70 years of aviation?
Are they the remaining Neanderthals who did not go extinct?
How do we always get these kind of people in politics?
Is a lobotomy a prerequisite for government service?
Sometimes, I despair for the future of the UK.
No, I tell a lie. I despair quite often, actually.
Silver
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Not to worry DaveReidUK, even at full size - this is incomprehensible. 
I recall that less than 25 years ago a brand new theatre was built somewhere in the UK and they only discovered after it was built - that some seats had their view of the stage obstructed by pillars. Subsequently, those seats have to be sold at a reduced price for every singl;e performance. The architects did well ...
There is a building that I work in fairly often that, when I saw the plans put on display I pointed out three areas where it would make the work of the staff more difficult than it needed to be. Thus it proved. What I could not tell from the plans was that they also had enourmous problems with the acoustics and had to reposition the speakers and then change to different loudspeakers. Since it is a building were public speaking takes place every day, this might be considered a demerit ... When I was asked to speak at the opening ceremony, I had to bite my tongue!
The architect? He won an award for it.
For this airport, I would like to see the notes recording the interviews that the design team had with the:
I recall that less than 25 years ago a brand new theatre was built somewhere in the UK and they only discovered after it was built - that some seats had their view of the stage obstructed by pillars. Subsequently, those seats have to be sold at a reduced price for every singl;e performance. The architects did well ...
There is a building that I work in fairly often that, when I saw the plans put on display I pointed out three areas where it would make the work of the staff more difficult than it needed to be. Thus it proved. What I could not tell from the plans was that they also had enourmous problems with the acoustics and had to reposition the speakers and then change to different loudspeakers. Since it is a building were public speaking takes place every day, this might be considered a demerit ... When I was asked to speak at the opening ceremony, I had to bite my tongue!
The architect? He won an award for it.
For this airport, I would like to see the notes recording the interviews that the design team had with the:
- Vehicle handling staff
- Experienced ground crew
- Apron crews (inc. fuel/water/lavs/food/cleaning)
- Maintenance crews
- Check-in staff
- ATC
- Flight crew from raw novice to grizzly retired
- Etcetera
- The money boys
- The shop owners
- Et-bleedin-cetera
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Seems like it complies with the dimensions of the Runway End Safety Area to me.
Unless you're saying that today's operations are not safe?
Also how long are the runways?
Unless you're saying that today's operations are not safe?
Also how long are the runways?
Well they say they have looked at RESAs and obstacle surfaces:
"Finally, our preliminary evaluation of Obstacle Limitation Surfaces, Runway End Safety Areas, and Missed Approach Procedures indicates that the central aircraft parking ramp satisfies these criteria from an aviation compliance and safety standpoint regarding its placement between the east and west runways. Further detailed planning will further refine the layout to these essential dimensions"
Judging from the scale provided on the graphic that I posted, each runway is around 4000m
"Finally, our preliminary evaluation of Obstacle Limitation Surfaces, Runway End Safety Areas, and Missed Approach Procedures indicates that the central aircraft parking ramp satisfies these criteria from an aviation compliance and safety standpoint regarding its placement between the east and west runways. Further detailed planning will further refine the layout to these essential dimensions"
Also how long are the runways?
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Well they say they have looked at RESAs and obstacle surfaces:
"Finally, our preliminary evaluation of Obstacle Limitation Surfaces, Runway End Safety Areas, and Missed Approach Procedures indicates that the central aircraft parking ramp satisfies these criteria from an aviation compliance and safety standpoint regarding its placement between the east and west runways. Further detailed planning will further refine the layout to these essential dimensions"
"Finally, our preliminary evaluation of Obstacle Limitation Surfaces, Runway End Safety Areas, and Missed Approach Procedures indicates that the central aircraft parking ramp satisfies these criteria from an aviation compliance and safety standpoint regarding its placement between the east and west runways. Further detailed planning will further refine the layout to these essential dimensions"
Where have we heard this before? "Well, we looked at the regulations, but did not think we had to engage our brains as well..…."
This would have landed on stand 63a:
This would have landed on stand 72b:
This would have landed in the terminal building:
Again in the terminal building:
This would have landed on stand 17a:
This would have landed on stand 53c:
This would have landed on stand 14b:
This would have landed in the terminal building:
(Errr, 12,000 kg of Jet A1 please - do you take Visa?):
This would have landed on stand 32a:
This would have landed on stand 21a:
This would have landed on stand 5b:
This would have landed on stand 16a (sorry, I thought this was junction 13 on the M25):
This would have landed on stand 117b:
This would have landed on stand 48c:
This would have landed on stand 204b:
So the question is:
Which stand will you be boarding from, in this brave new aeronautical world of the brain-dead architect?
Quote: "Are you feeling lucky today, punk??"
Silver
Last edited by silverstrata; 21st Nov 2013 at 09:53.