New Thames Airport for London
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: warwickshire
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It looks like they are now proposing a big new airport to the northwest of London. While this is an ideal position for an airport, I cannot see them overcoming the noise and pollution problem of dropping a thunking great airport on the Tory Shires.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Coventry
Age: 48
Posts: 1,946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps a subtle ploy, all the anti HS2 will be so engrossed campaigning against this, the train will be built before they notice!
The anti-HS2 campaign has behaved quite differently to the usual NIMBY cries, focusing on the poor economic case for the scheme, then on the environment as a whole (including CO2 emmissions), and only going for the predictable stuff after that.
We don't yet know where the new guy stands on HS2, as so much focus has been on LHR3. Clearly, the treasury is having doubts. If it falls, it will be due to the economics, not the Chilterns.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: L.A.
Age: 56
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jabird
You are ducking the issue. I asked you where you stood on profitability. Either you saw this as a government project, in which case profit was not a problem, or you stood by your claim that this would be the "most profitable airport in the world".
You are ducking the issue. I asked you where you stood on profitability. Either you saw this as a government project, in which case profit was not a problem, or you stood by your claim that this would be the "most profitable airport in the world".
Not ducking the issue at all. As I said, a government has multiple revenue streams from a project that are in addition to any profits a mere private company can make. Wage taxation is a cost to a company, while it is revenue neutral to a government etc: etc:
Thus a loss making private project (as some of the Victorian constructions were) can be hugely valuable and profitable to a government. As will be a new International Aviation Hub in the southeast.
.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Coventry
Age: 48
Posts: 1,946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Therefore, FBI, cannot possibly be, "the most profitable airport in the world", as you previously claimed. Just admit you got that one wrong.
Still waiting those PSC figures.
Still waiting those PSC figures.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: L.A.
Age: 56
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.
So Silver-Boris airport is now causing political infighting.
Cameron plots revenge on Boris over Heathrow and warns Mayor 'we'll see what happens next time he comes with the begging bowl' | Mail Online
This is interesting, for both of these politicians are now pinning their Heathrow hopes to their political mast. So the fate of Silver-Boris airport is not only attached the the political careers of these two politicians, it is also becomming more polarised.
Boris is now centering his political strategy on the construction of the Thames airport, which means that if Boris works his way into No10, he is pretty much committed to going ahead with this project. In some respects, this means the airport is much more likely to go ahead.
.
So Silver-Boris airport is now causing political infighting.
Cameron plots revenge on Boris over Heathrow and warns Mayor 'we'll see what happens next time he comes with the begging bowl' | Mail Online
This is interesting, for both of these politicians are now pinning their Heathrow hopes to their political mast. So the fate of Silver-Boris airport is not only attached the the political careers of these two politicians, it is also becomming more polarised.
Boris is now centering his political strategy on the construction of the Thames airport, which means that if Boris works his way into No10, he is pretty much committed to going ahead with this project. In some respects, this means the airport is much more likely to go ahead.
.
This plan looks very pretty - laughable but very attractive...
http://www.pleiade.org/projectzone/L...ort_layout.pdf
http://www.pleiade.org/projectzone/L...ort_layout.pdf
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Silverstrata, have a coffee, a deep breath and put a bag on your head and breath for a moment. Here are two things of which I am sure. Bojo "Shagger" Johnson has no electoral appeal outside the south east. Not in Scotland, Wales, the North, Northern Ireland and certainly not Liverpool. His shadow cabinet career was characterised by laziness, a failure to grasp a junior brief and he was sacked by Michael Howard, perhaps unfairly, for something unrelated. He is not a team player, he has lorded over the Olympics taking credit for the work of others and now openly picks fights with he PM. He has no grasp of numbers or attention to detail. Consequently, nobody who matters in the party sees him as a serious candidate. His election to the figurehead role as London Mayor was done to annoy Ken and, well, comedy value if we're being honest. I voted for him, and in this role, would do so again.
The second main thing is that whatever the airport, if Fanasy Island is built, we're not about to name it after you.
Giving control of Trident to BoJo???? Zoinks!
The second main thing is that whatever the airport, if Fanasy Island is built, we're not about to name it after you.
Giving control of Trident to BoJo???? Zoinks!
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 8th Sep 2012 at 11:02.
This plan looks very pretty - laughable but very attractive...
Incidentally, the home page of Pleiade's website features the following:
"In a consummate display of media-management and PR legerdemain the Department for Transport has ensured that, except for the BAA airports (Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted), the only widely-publicised options for expansion were variants of the revived Thames estuary airport, with their attendant environmental, locational and economic deficiencies (in four re-incarnations: Maplin, Marinair, Cliffe and TCP/London Mayoral). The absurdity of these schemes has been long-demonstrated and clear to departments of state since the 1970's, but their value to government is to deflect attention from those viable, but politically contentious, options which may undermine the established monopoly of BAA. There is no prospect of a quiet life for either politicians or civil servants in the promotion of valuable and rational solutions to this issue: thus both groups tacitly share the interests of BAA—the monopoly supplier and creature of their own making—in further entrenching the ramshackle status quo."
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Middlesex (under the flightpath)
Posts: 1,946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boris
The point is: does Boris look prime ministerial?
This is the question Conservative party members will have to ask themselves if Boris makes the top two in a leadership ballot amongst Conservative MPs (who will ask themselves the same question).
Did Michael Foot or Neil Kinnock look prime ministerial? No, and Thatcher kept winning.
Did William Hague or Iain Duncan-Smith look prime ministerial? No, and Blair kept winning.
Quote: "This is interesting, for both of these politicians are now pinning their Heathrow hopes to their political mast. So the fate of Silver-Boris airport is not only attached the the political careers of these two politicians, it is also becomming more polarised."
Indeed they are, up to a point.
Cameron has dithered and now "bottled" it in very much the same way that Gordon Brown "bottled" a general election (which he would have won) in 2007, again after a summer of dithering.
Only one course of action will prevail, eventually, because there is no alternative.
This is the question Conservative party members will have to ask themselves if Boris makes the top two in a leadership ballot amongst Conservative MPs (who will ask themselves the same question).
Did Michael Foot or Neil Kinnock look prime ministerial? No, and Thatcher kept winning.
Did William Hague or Iain Duncan-Smith look prime ministerial? No, and Blair kept winning.
Quote: "This is interesting, for both of these politicians are now pinning their Heathrow hopes to their political mast. So the fate of Silver-Boris airport is not only attached the the political careers of these two politicians, it is also becomming more polarised."
Indeed they are, up to a point.
Cameron has dithered and now "bottled" it in very much the same way that Gordon Brown "bottled" a general election (which he would have won) in 2007, again after a summer of dithering.
Only one course of action will prevail, eventually, because there is no alternative.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: L.A.
Age: 56
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skippy:
Not in Scotland, Wales, the North, Northern Ireland and certainly not Liverpool. His shadow cabinet career was characterised by laziness, a failure to grasp a junior brief and he was sacked by Michael Howard.
Not in Scotland, Wales, the North, Northern Ireland and certainly not Liverpool. His shadow cabinet career was characterised by laziness, a failure to grasp a junior brief and he was sacked by Michael Howard.
Scotland - Labour heartland and therefore irrelevant.
Wales - Labour heartland and therefore irrelevant.
the North - Labour heartland and therefore irrelevant.
Northern Ireland - Unionist and Left-footer heartland and therefore irrelevant.
Liverpool - Labour heartland and therefore irrelevant.
Lazy? Sure. He is not my favorite either, I would much prefer David Davies.
However, as you know, politics is becoming more than ever a popularity contest, rather than a serious business. Heck, Obama only had to pretend to be black to get elected and get a Nobel Prize for doing sweet FA. And if you remember, Obama's comprehensive and detailed election policy was 'we want change'. Yeah, that's real serious politics, that is.
Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how it works out, Boris may well get elected simply because he is an outspoken 'character', while Cameron is perceived more and more as a fudger who is out of touch with society.
But since Boris has nailed his flag to the mast of the Silver-Boris airport, if he does get elected he will be honour-bound to go ahead with the project. They may be sinking piles in the Thames sooner than you think.
.
.
Last edited by silverstrata; 9th Sep 2012 at 05:31.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"left footer"? Seriously?
List of religious slurs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How did you know I was lapse Catholic?
You're on form today Mr expat Daily Mail, so everyone except the home counties are irrelevant and you choose to use a term that I haven't heard spoken out loud in ten years. You're delusional if you think BoJo is a credible PM. We're still behind your fellow Americans on that one, not quite at the tea party just yet.
Also you should know, your President is a black man. Does that frighten you? Seems so.
Northern Ireland - Unionist and Left-footer heartland and therefore irrelevant.
Liverpool - Labour heartland and therefore irrelevant.
Liverpool - Labour heartland and therefore irrelevant.
How did you know I was lapse Catholic?
You're on form today Mr expat Daily Mail, so everyone except the home counties are irrelevant and you choose to use a term that I haven't heard spoken out loud in ten years. You're delusional if you think BoJo is a credible PM. We're still behind your fellow Americans on that one, not quite at the tea party just yet.
Also you should know, your President is a black man. Does that frighten you? Seems so.
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 9th Sep 2012 at 07:30.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: L.A.
Age: 56
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skippy
We're still behind your fellow Americans on that one, not quite at the tea party just yet.
Also you should know, your President is a black man. Does that frighten you? Seems so.
We're still behind your fellow Americans on that one, not quite at the tea party just yet.
Also you should know, your President is a black man. Does that frighten you? Seems so.
The Tea Party is an informal gathering of normal folk who think that politics and politicians have become disconnected from the hopes, needs and aspirations of the middle/working classes. I think, the UK needs a good dose of Tea Partyism.
Obama black? Why so? If he was 30% black, would he still be black? 20%? 10%? What level of blackness makes one black in your view? Please do tell - an exact percentage please, +/- 1%. And why does blackness always trump whiteness?
Skip
so everyone except the home counties are irrelevant
so everyone except the home counties are irrelevant
.
Last edited by silverstrata; 9th Sep 2012 at 11:28.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Middlesex (under the flightpath)
Posts: 1,946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Richmond by-election
Ho ho, good to be ahead of the news for once!
Wrote in post #2001 on the Heathrow thread (6-9-12):
-------------
"Actually a by-election in Richmond would be interesting, it is a Conservative-Libdem marginal, Labour don't stand a chance.
Possibly, Goldsmith might be tempted to fight it as a Green (after a deathbed conversion?) or as an anti-LHR independent.
Boris may be tempted to seek nomination as the Conservative candidate in order to already be in the Commons when the time comes for Call-me-Dave to "fall on his sword". "
-------------
And today it's all over the Daily Mail and Boris has apparently denied it strongly! Surely these denials must make it a strong possibility?
Quote: "Scotland - Labour heartland and therefore irrelevant."
Not any more, SNP heartland now, not that it affects the point you're making.
Quote: "However, as you know, politics is becoming more than ever a popularity contest, rather than a serious business. Heck, Obama only had to pretend to be black to get elected and get a Nobel Prize for doing sweet FA. And if you remember, Obama's comprehensive and detailed election policy was 'we want change'. Yeah, that's real serious politics, that is."
O'Bama's phrase was "change we can believe in". Silly me, thought he was referring to the pennies and pound coins in my pocket (as opposed to the nonsense that is the euro).
Quote: "Also you should know, your President is a black man. Does that frighten you? Seems so."
Quote: "Obama black? Why so? If he was 30% black, would he still be black? 20%? 10%? What level of blackness makes one black in your view? Please do tell - an exact percentage please, +/- 1%. And why does blackness always trump whiteness?
No, Barack O'Bama is half black, half white. AFAIK his mother is white American, father black Kenyan, so, unlike his wife Michelle, he is not "Afro-American".
Of course, as with all American presidents, there is an Irish link, plus he has some link with Indonesia.
And before we go off on a tangent, he was born in the USA, (Hawaii, after it had become a state of the USA, IIRC).
O'Bama's phrase was "change we can believe in". Silly me, thought he was referring to the pennies and pound coins in my pocket (as opposed to the nonsense that is the euro).
Now, back to airports: even in the unlikely event of Boris becoming prime minister or leader of the opposition, he won't answer the questions either:
(1) who pays for Fantasy Island bearing in mind that it is a bad business and commercial proposition?
(2) how are airlines persuaded to leave LHR and pay even higher airport charges at an airport in the middle of nowhere?
If he doesn't answer the questions, nothing will happen.
In the unlikely event that he does answer the questions (and hell freezes over), nothing will happen.
Wrote in post #2001 on the Heathrow thread (6-9-12):
-------------
"Actually a by-election in Richmond would be interesting, it is a Conservative-Libdem marginal, Labour don't stand a chance.
Possibly, Goldsmith might be tempted to fight it as a Green (after a deathbed conversion?) or as an anti-LHR independent.
Boris may be tempted to seek nomination as the Conservative candidate in order to already be in the Commons when the time comes for Call-me-Dave to "fall on his sword". "
-------------
And today it's all over the Daily Mail and Boris has apparently denied it strongly! Surely these denials must make it a strong possibility?
Quote: "Scotland - Labour heartland and therefore irrelevant."
Not any more, SNP heartland now, not that it affects the point you're making.
Quote: "However, as you know, politics is becoming more than ever a popularity contest, rather than a serious business. Heck, Obama only had to pretend to be black to get elected and get a Nobel Prize for doing sweet FA. And if you remember, Obama's comprehensive and detailed election policy was 'we want change'. Yeah, that's real serious politics, that is."
O'Bama's phrase was "change we can believe in". Silly me, thought he was referring to the pennies and pound coins in my pocket (as opposed to the nonsense that is the euro).
Quote: "Also you should know, your President is a black man. Does that frighten you? Seems so."
Quote: "Obama black? Why so? If he was 30% black, would he still be black? 20%? 10%? What level of blackness makes one black in your view? Please do tell - an exact percentage please, +/- 1%. And why does blackness always trump whiteness?
No, Barack O'Bama is half black, half white. AFAIK his mother is white American, father black Kenyan, so, unlike his wife Michelle, he is not "Afro-American".
Of course, as with all American presidents, there is an Irish link, plus he has some link with Indonesia.
And before we go off on a tangent, he was born in the USA, (Hawaii, after it had become a state of the USA, IIRC).
O'Bama's phrase was "change we can believe in". Silly me, thought he was referring to the pennies and pound coins in my pocket (as opposed to the nonsense that is the euro).
Now, back to airports: even in the unlikely event of Boris becoming prime minister or leader of the opposition, he won't answer the questions either:
(1) who pays for Fantasy Island bearing in mind that it is a bad business and commercial proposition?
(2) how are airlines persuaded to leave LHR and pay even higher airport charges at an airport in the middle of nowhere?
If he doesn't answer the questions, nothing will happen.
In the unlikely event that he does answer the questions (and hell freezes over), nothing will happen.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Coventry
Age: 48
Posts: 1,946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boris is now centering his political strategy on the construction of the Thames airport, which means that if Boris works his way into No10, he is pretty much committed to going ahead with this project. In some respects, this means the airport is much more likely to go ahead.
Yet Boris isn't even a party. He is a one man show who many people find very entertaining. Right now, I'd love to see him wrestle Cameron for the top job, but there is the small question of just how he'd do that.
Never mind the conflict in the commons, many Londoners would feel let down if he left the job they had elected him to do before the full term.
There is also the small question of credibility for Mr Goldsmith. Firstly, he would have to ditch that green badge, as he'd be swapping his opposition to a single short runway plan to inplied approval for four long ones, together with all the aggregate they'd have to sit on. So that must be about 10x the embodied energy just to get the damn thing built!
Secondly, you are assuming that he'd be given a say in who he handed over to. Calling a by-election is not something that happens very often in the UK, except due to the death of the sitting MP. As they have no say in who takes over, why would Zac have any more right for comment on the matter than the heavily discredited Mrs Mench in Corby?
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Coventry
Age: 48
Posts: 1,946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But since Boris has nailed his flag to the mast of the Silver-Boris airport
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: L.A.
Age: 56
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.
Big new article in the Sunday Times, promoting the Silver-Boris airport.
There is even an editorial endorsing the airport, which demonstrates that Murdoch is now onboard. Since Murdoch controls most political parties, this is a significant development, that Cameron would do well to watch.
A Sunday Times pol suggests that 44% of Londoners would prefer a Silver-Boris Thames airport, against 24% wanting Heathrow expansion. In addition, 58% agree with Boris that the government is fudging the issue, and trying to kick it into the long grass.
This does not bode well for Cameron, and further bolsters Boris' ambitions. However, having seen these pol results, Boris will use them as increased leverage on the Tories, and thus further nail his political fortunes to the mast of Silver-Boris airport. Thus the probability of Silver-Boris becoming reality is strengthening by the minute.
The article is behind a paywall.
Only one problem here:
They still have a plan with the terminals and cargo center at the end of the runway. Boris, Foster, if you are listening, that is criminally irresponsible. You cannot put buildings at the end of the runway - both for performance issues and for safety issues.
They still have a plan where the runways face east-west. Boris, Foster, if you are listening, that simply places the noise issue back over London again (especially on easterly approaches). The runways must face NE SW, which more into the prevailing wind anyway.
.
Big new article in the Sunday Times, promoting the Silver-Boris airport.
There is even an editorial endorsing the airport, which demonstrates that Murdoch is now onboard. Since Murdoch controls most political parties, this is a significant development, that Cameron would do well to watch.
A Sunday Times pol suggests that 44% of Londoners would prefer a Silver-Boris Thames airport, against 24% wanting Heathrow expansion. In addition, 58% agree with Boris that the government is fudging the issue, and trying to kick it into the long grass.
This does not bode well for Cameron, and further bolsters Boris' ambitions. However, having seen these pol results, Boris will use them as increased leverage on the Tories, and thus further nail his political fortunes to the mast of Silver-Boris airport. Thus the probability of Silver-Boris becoming reality is strengthening by the minute.
The article is behind a paywall.
Only one problem here:
They still have a plan with the terminals and cargo center at the end of the runway. Boris, Foster, if you are listening, that is criminally irresponsible. You cannot put buildings at the end of the runway - both for performance issues and for safety issues.
They still have a plan where the runways face east-west. Boris, Foster, if you are listening, that simply places the noise issue back over London again (especially on easterly approaches). The runways must face NE SW, which more into the prevailing wind anyway.
.
Last edited by silverstrata; 9th Sep 2012 at 17:31.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: L.A.
Age: 56
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frank:
No, Barack O'Bama is half black, half white.
No, Barack O'Bama is half black, half white.
You failed here to answer the question, and you also failed to see the point I was making. That is two failings in one post, not bad for you.
The question was, at what percentage does Obama cease to be 'black' and suddenly become 'white'? Obviously 50-50 is still black to you, so what percentage of blackness makes someone white? Its a simple question.
And the point of this enquiry goes to the heart of the Silver-Boris airport problem. For far too long now, people have been fudging issues and jumping on popular bandwagons, simply because they were popular, and not because they were sensible, just or right. And PC issues and the adoption of double-speak go right to the heart of this social canker.
One of dire the consequences of PCism, was that everyone in politics became afraid of saying what they thought, or what was true, or what was reasonable - just like you and others here will not admit that Obama is as white as he is black. Thus difficult topics and difficult decisions like Silver-Boris airport were kicked into the long grass, because they might be controversial. OOhh, we cannot cross with the PC lobby, we cannot cross with the Green lobby, we cannot deal with the NIMBYs, we cannot change people's lives - the Focus Group thinks that may be unpopular and we may loose votes. This is Cameron in 2012, mired in fudge and without a resolute bone in his body.
Now, however, we have a new-model politician who is able to grasp the mettle and tell us things as they are - Heathrow is a mistaken planning proposal from the 1940s, that has grown into a monstrous carbuncle in the 21st century. And as Boris says, it is about time to right that wrong. Boris is Cincinatus, and he can and will lay down his plough to fight for the nation (even if there is an element of ego in his designs.)
.
Last edited by silverstrata; 9th Sep 2012 at 17:26.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Coventry
Age: 48
Posts: 1,946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even an editorial endorsing it, which demonstrates that Murdoch is now onboard.
Since Murdoch controls most political parties, this is a significant development.
Either way, what little interest he has left will be on the big economic and legal issues, if he did take any view on airport expansion, he'd be backing the most economically sensible option, which is Heathrow.
Far more likely for him right now to be jumping on his editors to make capital of Skippy Air jumping into the sand pit, rather than to be taking any interest in a fantasy proposition that will never take off.
44% of Londoners would prefer a Silver-Boris Thames airport, against 24% wanting Heathrow expansion
Unless we had a system of direct democracy, these decisions are largely going to be taken by the technocrats, so I'm not sure a poll really proves much:
Do you like aircraft noise? Do turkeys vote for Christmas?
Should we "save" the environment? Yes. Where do you go on hols?
The same polls will tell you that Birmingham makes a great place for a hub airport. Now try conducting a poll of people who actually know what they are talking about - ie airport or airline bosses. The result - one airport boss will tell you BHX is a good place for a hub! Not even his biggest base airline - Flybe - are interested, but for some bizarre reason they do back Boris Island!
Surprisingly, the list of airlines that back FBI ends there. Or does Silver know of others?