Qantas grounding?
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love him or loath him, he's played a blinder, just over 24h and it's effectively over...
What the fallout of all this will be is yet to be clear, but the unions have shot themselves in the foot without doubt.
What the fallout of all this will be is yet to be clear, but the unions have shot themselves in the foot without doubt.
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The situation is very simple. Currently no winners. Some here seem to forget that the unions did not ground the fleet, Joyce did. He has been told by the government to shut up and get them back in the air again.
No decisions on any industrial claim by the unions. Therefore that can only be a massive defeat for Joyce.
Now in 21 days things may be different, time will tell.
Some of you anti unionists need to wake up. Instead of thinking in the singular, i.e. only Qantas, you may do well to start thinking gobally.
Do you really support the global commercial drive to the lowest common denominator or are you a bunch of big mouths because the dumbing down hasn't hit you yet?
No decisions on any industrial claim by the unions. Therefore that can only be a massive defeat for Joyce.
Now in 21 days things may be different, time will tell.
Some of you anti unionists need to wake up. Instead of thinking in the singular, i.e. only Qantas, you may do well to start thinking gobally.
Do you really support the global commercial drive to the lowest common denominator or are you a bunch of big mouths because the dumbing down hasn't hit you yet?
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Qantas and BA same mentality.......who would have thought the pommes and the roos would agree on anything......my opinion.....and only an opinion.....which I believe we all have a right to, is times are tough, and us...(as pilots) not exempt. I think its about time the last of the dinasours in the left seat realize that its not the honeypot career it used to be and knucked down and did some work........
Back in the air
At two o'clock this morning, after a decision by Fair Work Australia, all employees are to go back to work, lockout is over.
Qantas Grounding | Flights to Resume | Fair Work Australia
Qantas Grounding | Flights to Resume | Fair Work Australia
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Bizjet Inmate
Qantas and BA same mentality.......who would have thought the pommes and the roos would agree on anything......my opinion.....and only an opinion.....which I believe we all have a right to, is times are tough, and us...(as pilots) not exempt. I think its about time the last of the dinasours in the left seat realize that its not the honeypot career it used to be and knucked down and did some work........
Senior Captains in the left hand seat not doing any work?? Most of these guys graduated through short haul multi sector days. Crew complements in large commercial airlines have been reduced over many years in line with automation etc.
As you say nobody is exempt and in my experience pilots have made a huge contribution to airline efficiency over the years. Whether management has been as efficient is another argument.
Because we use a seniority system most airline pilots are very keen to work for a profitable, sucessfull and well run airline and are willing to contribute to its sucess. In fact, in my experience, they achieve the max hours allowed in a year.
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The situation is very simple. Currently no winners. Some here seem to forget that the unions did not ground the fleet, Joyce did. He has been told by the government to shut up and get them back in the air again.
No decisions on any industrial claim by the unions. Therefore that can only be a massive defeat for Joyce.
massively disagree.
way I see it, he either put up with months of random strike action causing massive un-certainty, and thus death by slow torture, or force the issue, which he has, now they HVAE to go back to work, no more strikes, job done.
21 days to sort out a settlement, or have one imposed, no way is this anything but total defeat for the unions position.
Yes, not ideal from Qantas's POV, but given the choice, the better option, and it worked in 24h, job done.
(I should say at this point I am no fan of Joyce)
No decisions on any industrial claim by the unions. Therefore that can only be a massive defeat for Joyce.
massively disagree.
way I see it, he either put up with months of random strike action causing massive un-certainty, and thus death by slow torture, or force the issue, which he has, now they HVAE to go back to work, no more strikes, job done.
21 days to sort out a settlement, or have one imposed, no way is this anything but total defeat for the unions position.
Yes, not ideal from Qantas's POV, but given the choice, the better option, and it worked in 24h, job done.
(I should say at this point I am no fan of Joyce)
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forcing the issue isn't a victory because we don't know the outcome yet. Some of the wording of the fair work report is clearly not supportive of Joyce's behaviour.
We will need to wait 21 days or possibly 42 to determine the eventual winner.
We will need to wait 21 days or possibly 42 to determine the eventual winner.
I'm confused (no surprise).
So they go back to work, still grumbling and the Guv claims leadership and vistory for the travelling public and tourism.
But how will we know that it is over and done with
How will vistory be measured?
If AJ gets sacked and the unons don't get their demands met will that be victory for both sides and the Tsunani warning will be relaxed?
I need to understand the rules of the game
So they go back to work, still grumbling and the Guv claims leadership and vistory for the travelling public and tourism.
But how will we know that it is over and done with
How will vistory be measured?
If AJ gets sacked and the unons don't get their demands met will that be victory for both sides and the Tsunani warning will be relaxed?
I need to understand the rules of the game
ROI...
The underlying complaint is that the ROI is poor. Quite.
QFA has about 19.9B in non current assets, and against that, the 500m is somewhat poor as a ROI. however, there is only 5.981B in equity.
If you get $5 return for an investment of $200, it is sad, however if the $5 return comes from $60 of yours, and your talking the banks to loan you $140, and you are servicing the loans, and still making $5, then that is a fair return. Particularly when the rest of the world is in exceptional circumstances and generally making losses doing the same old thing. Is it sustainable, depends if the banks still want to fund leasing of operating leases.
then of course, if in your accounting you have also taken a book charge for 1.2B for depreciation (longhaul.... remember everything else os leased), which means that the actual return is somewhat better... ie for the example, you are getting $17 back for $60 of equity.
even better, charge the costs of the competing sibling companies to the parent, and then bitch about the egregious situation, citing the relative "performance" of the family members. Even better, neglect to mention that your grand design has been trialled, and part of the management went to jail as a consequence, and the project made a massive lost against equity introduced, and the controlling interest has been passed on by your "partner" to your competition.
QF, with enemies in the management, you are in need of spring cleaning or a career change.
QFA has about 19.9B in non current assets, and against that, the 500m is somewhat poor as a ROI. however, there is only 5.981B in equity.
If you get $5 return for an investment of $200, it is sad, however if the $5 return comes from $60 of yours, and your talking the banks to loan you $140, and you are servicing the loans, and still making $5, then that is a fair return. Particularly when the rest of the world is in exceptional circumstances and generally making losses doing the same old thing. Is it sustainable, depends if the banks still want to fund leasing of operating leases.
then of course, if in your accounting you have also taken a book charge for 1.2B for depreciation (longhaul.... remember everything else os leased), which means that the actual return is somewhat better... ie for the example, you are getting $17 back for $60 of equity.
even better, charge the costs of the competing sibling companies to the parent, and then bitch about the egregious situation, citing the relative "performance" of the family members. Even better, neglect to mention that your grand design has been trialled, and part of the management went to jail as a consequence, and the project made a massive lost against equity introduced, and the controlling interest has been passed on by your "partner" to your competition.
QF, with enemies in the management, you are in need of spring cleaning or a career change.
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Joyce has performed BRILLIANTLY in this move. At first it seemed like a huge, high stakes gamble but he has come out of it utterly gutting the Unions of any power. An absolute win for Joyce and a complete loss for the Unions. A strike is your only real power and recourse as a union and now that right has been taken away by the FAIR labor board. It remains to be seen the unions reactions but clearly they have been the big losers here. This will go down in the history books as a Home Run for Joyce.
I don't think that is correct.
The Qantas matter will play out in the coming months but it is highly unlikely there will be any winners, not the Qantas Board, not the shareholders, not Qantas apssengers and certainly not Qantas staff. The only winner at this stage appears to be Virgin.
I seriously doubt Joyce and the Qantas Board has any friends on either side of Parliament after the stunt they pulled at 5.00 pm on Saturday. Joyce highlighted a fatal weakness in the Government's cherished industrial relations legislation.
The game is only at half time, at best........
The Qantas matter will play out in the coming months but it is highly unlikely there will be any winners, not the Qantas Board, not the shareholders, not Qantas apssengers and certainly not Qantas staff. The only winner at this stage appears to be Virgin.
I seriously doubt Joyce and the Qantas Board has any friends on either side of Parliament after the stunt they pulled at 5.00 pm on Saturday. Joyce highlighted a fatal weakness in the Government's cherished industrial relations legislation.
The game is only at half time, at best........
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Might be useful for some like wyoming to actually read the decision before spouting uneducated nonsense.
A few quotes:
Not quite the Joyce home run. I suspect there will be change at the top shortly after this is finally sorted.
A few quotes:
We heard unchallenged evidence from Mr Mrdak, Secretary, Department of Infrastructure and Transport and Mr Clarke, Secretary, Department of Resources, Energy and Tourism as to the importance of airline passenger and cargo transport to the economy and the effect of the grounding of the Qantas fleet on the aviation and tourism industries. The tourism industry, including aviation, was estimated as contributing 2.6 per cent to GDP and as having 500,000 employees. The value of inbound tourism is estimated at $24 billion per year.
It is unlikely that the protected industrial action taken by the three unions, even taken together, is threatening to cause significant damage to the tourism and air transport industries. The response industrial action of which Qantas has given notice, if taken, threatens to cause significant damage to the tourism and air transport industries and indirectly to industry generally because of the effect on consumers of air passenger and cargo services. The Qantas evidence was that the cost to it alone is $20 million per day.
It is apparent that a suspension of all action on an interim or short term basis is not appropriate and in the end no party supported that course. Some of the principal issues in the negotiations have so far proved very difficult to resolve. Other matters may be easier to resolve.
On the evidence there is significant uncertainty arising from the protected action initially of the unions but in particular arising from the lockout and the grounding of the airline. We should do what we can to avoid significant damage to the tourism industry.
There is a need to balance this issue against the fact that protected industrial action is permissible under our system and has been now for many years and has been taken relatively frequently in the airline industry with successive bargaining rounds. It is also important that encouragement of enterprise bargaining is also part of the system. In that respect, what we have heard indicates there are still prospects for a satisfactory negotiated outcome in all three cases. The prospect of a negotiated resolution in relation to the three proposed enterprise agreements still remains.
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Smells like a prepackaged deal to me. Joyce got his termination decision instantly and the binding arbitration has probably been decided already too. Check-mate! Another sad day for the folks in the trenches. I certainly wish you all the best.
Last edited by flite idol; 31st Oct 2011 at 00:44.
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I think QANTAS should take the chance to look long and hard at why people are voting with their feet and they are not getting the customers that perhaps are theirs.
In 50 years of travel I have noted the scene change greatly, some of it driven by penny pinching and some of it coming from the bean counters and perhaps some of the staff taking advantage of the change in things.
The bean counters are running this airline and like it or not, they are not the be all of marketing, an certainly understand little about using aircraft in an proper manner. 20 years ago a new aircraft brought into the fleet was sold long before it came into the market, so high was the standard of our aircraft. As such the airline had a good idea what each aircraft was going to bring upon disposal.
I have observed a lowering in cabin staff standards, not all staff I hasten to add, but there is now a a rude element and the cabin service I think should be looked at. Qantas used to be famous for its meals and soon I can Mcdonald type meals being served.
All the 100 and 1 cost saving factors impact on the pride that people used to observe by Qantas staff. I suspect that we are seeing a lowering of staff feelings under the new style management.
If I was in charge I would start and implement a review of all factors that impact on the business, sometimes a change may not be a good thing.
AJ and some of those who went before him lack the people skills to deal with
all people and that includes staff and public.
There is a chance for Qantas to wipe their slate clean, get rid of all the fancy accounting moves which fail to show the real picture and focus upon running a proper business.
What was that rolling noise, just Sir Hudson rolling over in disgust.
In 50 years of travel I have noted the scene change greatly, some of it driven by penny pinching and some of it coming from the bean counters and perhaps some of the staff taking advantage of the change in things.
The bean counters are running this airline and like it or not, they are not the be all of marketing, an certainly understand little about using aircraft in an proper manner. 20 years ago a new aircraft brought into the fleet was sold long before it came into the market, so high was the standard of our aircraft. As such the airline had a good idea what each aircraft was going to bring upon disposal.
I have observed a lowering in cabin staff standards, not all staff I hasten to add, but there is now a a rude element and the cabin service I think should be looked at. Qantas used to be famous for its meals and soon I can Mcdonald type meals being served.
All the 100 and 1 cost saving factors impact on the pride that people used to observe by Qantas staff. I suspect that we are seeing a lowering of staff feelings under the new style management.
If I was in charge I would start and implement a review of all factors that impact on the business, sometimes a change may not be a good thing.
AJ and some of those who went before him lack the people skills to deal with
all people and that includes staff and public.
There is a chance for Qantas to wipe their slate clean, get rid of all the fancy accounting moves which fail to show the real picture and focus upon running a proper business.
What was that rolling noise, just Sir Hudson rolling over in disgust.
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My 2 cents...Alan Joyce has succeeded in undermining the Qantas brand, a deliberate move so that JetStar can now emerge singularly to challenge VA. Qantas will eventually fade away and the unions can cry for all they want.
It's not Alan Joyce's battle to lose; its's the QF board's war to win. Alan had secured a handsome pay rise and should he come off badly in this battle, he will go away with a wonderful severance package based on the new pay. He can go away with all the curses and brickbats; but he has won the war for the QF board.
Alan Joyce will be nicely rewarded elsewhere; he has gathered ordnance for Tony Abbot to bomb away at Julia Gillard's government. Soon we will have many hug a ginga days!
It's not Alan Joyce's battle to lose; its's the QF board's war to win. Alan had secured a handsome pay rise and should he come off badly in this battle, he will go away with a wonderful severance package based on the new pay. He can go away with all the curses and brickbats; but he has won the war for the QF board.
Alan Joyce will be nicely rewarded elsewhere; he has gathered ordnance for Tony Abbot to bomb away at Julia Gillard's government. Soon we will have many hug a ginga days!
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This is not "airline management", there is no love for the industry here by Quantass. It is cold modern corperate culture. Shut down your legacy airline with well trained well paid professionals ASAP, upper MGT gets paid well, the banks get paid, the workforce gets what remains (killing many pensions/other bennies)
They sell all assets and start up paying slave labour wages with a clean slate.
The workforce folding to this lunacy would only delay what MGT wants.
They sell all assets and start up paying slave labour wages with a clean slate.
The workforce folding to this lunacy would only delay what MGT wants.
