Qantas grounding?
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So QFA management has been planning this action for an extended period, yet fails to comply with their own standards of behaviour.
Or even worse key stakeholders and shareholders did know and used that information to their benefit.
I bet the corporate office is busy covering it's tracks over the weekend if something isn't within the law.
Last edited by aseanaero; 30th Oct 2011 at 09:09.
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posting from very far away.
Remeber some other strikes in other places, e.g. BA, the govt stepped in and ordered the employees back to work per decree, citing the wider economical and national interest.
My question now: Why hasn't the Aussie govt done the same? Wouldn't they have ordered back unions, in case national interest was at stake? Too cosy with the board and the little man?
I guess there is more meddeling around, at least it stinks right over the oceans.
Remeber some other strikes in other places, e.g. BA, the govt stepped in and ordered the employees back to work per decree, citing the wider economical and national interest.
My question now: Why hasn't the Aussie govt done the same? Wouldn't they have ordered back unions, in case national interest was at stake? Too cosy with the board and the little man?
I guess there is more meddeling around, at least it stinks right over the oceans.
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Despite all the quarrel, the financial market seems to be fundamentally pleased with the current situation. Stock price is going down for more than a year now, but QAN did not have have single vote for "Underperform" or "Sell" within the last three month.
Wondering why? Analysts might suspect a takeover...
Wondering why? Analysts might suspect a takeover...
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Class Y , this is what I suspect also , a lot of speculators, investors and current shareholders who are 'in the know' , this is all about short term monetary gain and this years bonus cheque. They needed to pay the assassin before he pulled the trigger.
Tomorrow is going to be interesting
Tomorrow is going to be interesting
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I have know idea what is going to happen. But something has to be done long term for Qantas. In my whole life the only time I have ever flown Qantas is when its been paid for by the boss. Any other times its been with anybody but.
You know you have to weigh up the emotional feeling as an aussie for Qantas to the practicalities of the hip pocket. Every time I have had to fly and its had to come out of my pocket I have looked at the website and went nope, not even close. You are prepared to take a bit of a hit, but not a lot. I don't know, maybe I just couldn't find the right prices
.
You know you have to weigh up the emotional feeling as an aussie for Qantas to the practicalities of the hip pocket. Every time I have had to fly and its had to come out of my pocket I have looked at the website and went nope, not even close. You are prepared to take a bit of a hit, but not a lot. I don't know, maybe I just couldn't find the right prices
.
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union demands and FWA
Does anyone know the specifics of the union demands? I'd love to hear more info. Think this would make a fascinating movie if all the backroom conversations could be made light. Anyone interested in co-writing
The AU government has intervened asking Fair Work Australia (FWA) to halt the strikes & lockout on the grounds of the threat to the Australian economy.
FWA is Australia's workplace relations tribunal. They met late last night and the hearing with QF and the unions continued this afternoon.
For twitter users @leigh_howard is giving excellent real time updates.
Looks like either a suspension of strikes/lockout or all action ceasing permanently with FWA arbitrates and makes the final decision.
Unions wanting 3-4month suspension of industrial action, QF wanting all action terminated including lockout with FWA to arbitrate.
They've just adjourned to reconvene at 2045 AEDT / 1145zulu
The AU government has intervened asking Fair Work Australia (FWA) to halt the strikes & lockout on the grounds of the threat to the Australian economy.
FWA is Australia's workplace relations tribunal. They met late last night and the hearing with QF and the unions continued this afternoon.
For twitter users @leigh_howard is giving excellent real time updates.
Looks like either a suspension of strikes/lockout or all action ceasing permanently with FWA arbitrates and makes the final decision.
Unions wanting 3-4month suspension of industrial action, QF wanting all action terminated including lockout with FWA to arbitrate.
They've just adjourned to reconvene at 2045 AEDT / 1145zulu
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Quantas were a highly profitable company but they are now beginning to suffer from increased competition. Companies exist to make profit and they do so in a dynamic environment hence they need to adapt and respond to changes if they are to survive. For example IBM has been reborn brom the brink several times. You probably know it for pc's and laptops but it has exited that market and is now a major business advisory/ consultancy business and produces high end hardware.
The management are right to look for strategies that secure Quantas' future. Employees should be involved constructively but at the end of the day the decision lies with the management that the owners of the company (shareholders) have appointed to act on their behalf.
I understand that employee have to ask for pay rises and better conditions as they won't get them unless they ask for them. However, they need to understand the context of where Quantas is at the moment in terms of profits and future prospects and also in terms of what realistically they can get package wise at other airlines. I get the feeling that on this point the unions have failed to comprehend what management are saying (or that management have not expressed it clearly or strongly enough) hence the lockout is a move to send the message loud and clear.
Unions need to understand that Quantas need to come out of these with a agreement that enables a winning strategy to be implemented otherwise they will succeed in getting jam today only to find themselves feasting on dingo droppings tomorrow.
The anticipated 1000 job losses from the creation of a new airline based in asia seem to represent 3% of the workforce which I am sure can be absorbed by natural turnover and retirements.
The management are right to look for strategies that secure Quantas' future. Employees should be involved constructively but at the end of the day the decision lies with the management that the owners of the company (shareholders) have appointed to act on their behalf.
I understand that employee have to ask for pay rises and better conditions as they won't get them unless they ask for them. However, they need to understand the context of where Quantas is at the moment in terms of profits and future prospects and also in terms of what realistically they can get package wise at other airlines. I get the feeling that on this point the unions have failed to comprehend what management are saying (or that management have not expressed it clearly or strongly enough) hence the lockout is a move to send the message loud and clear.
Unions need to understand that Quantas need to come out of these with a agreement that enables a winning strategy to be implemented otherwise they will succeed in getting jam today only to find themselves feasting on dingo droppings tomorrow.
The anticipated 1000 job losses from the creation of a new airline based in asia seem to represent 3% of the workforce which I am sure can be absorbed by natural turnover and retirements.
When was that?
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Further strikes or a company wide strike is not on the agenda and not even a remote possibility. Neither is nationalising Qantas.
FWA is the umpire and their decision should be known later tonight or in the morning.
The only question that appears to remain and will be decided by FWA is whether PIA (protected industrial action) will be suspended (for 90 or 120 days) or terminated. Qantas are seeking PIA is terminated and claim they won't lift the grounding unless PIA is terminated.
FWA is the umpire and their decision should be known later tonight or in the morning.
The only question that appears to remain and will be decided by FWA is whether PIA (protected industrial action) will be suspended (for 90 or 120 days) or terminated. Qantas are seeking PIA is terminated and claim they won't lift the grounding unless PIA is terminated.
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Sorry to intrude but here in NZ it has been reported that Qantas is losing $15m a week but the CEO has just been given a 71 per cent pay rise. How can they afford that?
Unlike QF employees, I guess his contract has a clause stating, if QF closes, or goes bankrupt, he gets paid miilions regardless.
I suppose some silly airline will employ him when he doesnt have a job.
Maybe to destroy QF was in his mandate.
Corporate greed anyone?
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What is this fascination you have with the PM charging in to save the day? This is not a nationalised airline and the red-headed one has no sway in the hiring and firing of the Board. She may well have an opinion and she may well make that opinion known but if the Board choose to ignore her and do something completely different then she doesn't have a leg to stand on (and given her performance in every other facet of Australian events I'm glad she doesn't). This will, ultimately, come down to AJ convincing the Board he has done the right thing for QF (I'm NOT saying he has, just what he has to do) and the Board backing him. The PM is a red (headed) herring
If FWA rule that AJ had acted in bad faith; then his position would be untenable paving the way for Julia to recommentd to the QF board to dump that little napoleon.
QF
I think it is time the Aus airline unions stepped into the real world again.
I was based in Sydney by my UK airline during the last big stike in the 80's. Positioned Syd -Perth on a Dan Air 727 that was operating instead of the striking crews.
We operated Syd- Adl -Perth with same flight crew, something the Aus airline crews would not do, too long a duty they said and insisted on a layover in ADL !!
We all know how that strike ended.
I was based in Sydney by my UK airline during the last big stike in the 80's. Positioned Syd -Perth on a Dan Air 727 that was operating instead of the striking crews.
We operated Syd- Adl -Perth with same flight crew, something the Aus airline crews would not do, too long a duty they said and insisted on a layover in ADL !!
We all know how that strike ended.
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Hmm, I have been reading the 2010 Qantas Annual Report. Some interesting figures...Qantas + Qantas link Fleet = 191 Aircraft, Jetstar Fleet = 59 Aircraft. Profits Before Tax (PBT) by group in $Million for 2010
Qantas ---------------------------------->67
Jetstar --------------------------------->131
Qantas Frequent Flyer ------------------>328
Qantas Freight -------------------------->42
Jetset Travelworld ----------------------->14
Corporate/Eliminations ------------------->(114)
Underlying EBIT ------------------------->468
Net fi nance costs ---------------------->(91)
Underlying PBT -------------------------->377
So, 191 Qantas aircraft make $67 Million profit, 59 Jetstar aircraft make $131M. Im not taking sides, but if I was a shareholder, its a pretty easy to agree to the argument that the CEO would make for a strike..even if it did interupt my sat arvo footie!
If I was only interested on the return on my investment, for sure I would paint a big orange star on the 191 Qantas fleet and make the $2.2million per aircraft per year than Jetstar makes (an extra $357 million profit anyone?)
Also, how does Qantas Frequent Flyer make $328 M profit?!
Also part 2, net cash on hand was c. $3.7 Billion - or 185 weeks of strike at $20 million a week. Put that way, plenty of cash to keep grounded for a few weeks (ignoring loss of goodwil etc...)
Oh yeah, I agree with a previous poster, I fly them all the time for business, but never when I am flying for leisure and paying myself - my last return SYD-PER on qnatas was over $1000 for economy....! Nice new A330 though...
Qantas ---------------------------------->67
Jetstar --------------------------------->131
Qantas Frequent Flyer ------------------>328
Qantas Freight -------------------------->42
Jetset Travelworld ----------------------->14
Corporate/Eliminations ------------------->(114)
Underlying EBIT ------------------------->468
Net fi nance costs ---------------------->(91)
Underlying PBT -------------------------->377
So, 191 Qantas aircraft make $67 Million profit, 59 Jetstar aircraft make $131M. Im not taking sides, but if I was a shareholder, its a pretty easy to agree to the argument that the CEO would make for a strike..even if it did interupt my sat arvo footie!
If I was only interested on the return on my investment, for sure I would paint a big orange star on the 191 Qantas fleet and make the $2.2million per aircraft per year than Jetstar makes (an extra $357 million profit anyone?)
Also, how does Qantas Frequent Flyer make $328 M profit?!
Also part 2, net cash on hand was c. $3.7 Billion - or 185 weeks of strike at $20 million a week. Put that way, plenty of cash to keep grounded for a few weeks (ignoring loss of goodwil etc...)
Oh yeah, I agree with a previous poster, I fly them all the time for business, but never when I am flying for leisure and paying myself - my last return SYD-PER on qnatas was over $1000 for economy....! Nice new A330 though...
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20/21st century SuperClass
Skwak7700 wrote on page 2:
"Best of luck my friends. I salute you for standing up to greed, which knows no political or geographical boundaries.
These short term managers are more than happy charging first world prices but not so hot on paying first world employees. An epidemic which will soon see them hanging upside down in the town squares all around the world.
I wish you the best of luck and stand strong and united against these
."
I would like to mention in passing that I have thought along these lines for quite a few years now. Further, it is refreshing for me to note over the last few years now, particularly post 'Lehman Brothers" collapse, that quite a few people on various platforms around the world feel similarly.
I have said before, during the 18th century in France, it was practically impossible for the greater majority of the French people to "negotiate" an improvement in life/plight with the ruling royalty. The ONLY way to improve their conditions was to literally chop-off their heads! Problem solved thereafter. Period.
The "great" bankers and ludicrously paid "executives" of today will in the exact same way, not negotiate or relinquish economic power, ever! Why should they?
3, 4, 500 years ago and back, we (civilization) used slaves. A person was 'allowed' to remain alive by the 'owner' and fed enough to 'function'. However, the slave was not permitted/allowed to think or function in any way whatsoever other than what the 'owner' dictated. (sound familiar?
)
The frog in cold water being slowly heated does not generally hop out of the pot immediately.
I can very well see the "Captains of industry" being brought to task eventually over their utterly insatiable and voracious pure greed. Greed? What is greed? A synonym for "Loser"? I can just imagine these slave owners thinking.....
How will they be brought to answer? Well, one will eventually have to go hunting them down on their Bizjets/islands/condos/fortifications-in-the-cities/etc.
Will they be able to be targeted? Difficult to say. They own the defence and security and police forces which they fully utilise to protect themselves and their families and friends. But, the forces they use are comprised of "slaves".........
Certainly, like in all history from ancient times forward, the biggest adversary to contend with in attacking these oligoths will be the "traitor". Always present, on both sides luckily......
"Best of luck my friends. I salute you for standing up to greed, which knows no political or geographical boundaries.
These short term managers are more than happy charging first world prices but not so hot on paying first world employees. An epidemic which will soon see them hanging upside down in the town squares all around the world.
I wish you the best of luck and stand strong and united against these
."I would like to mention in passing that I have thought along these lines for quite a few years now. Further, it is refreshing for me to note over the last few years now, particularly post 'Lehman Brothers" collapse, that quite a few people on various platforms around the world feel similarly.
I have said before, during the 18th century in France, it was practically impossible for the greater majority of the French people to "negotiate" an improvement in life/plight with the ruling royalty. The ONLY way to improve their conditions was to literally chop-off their heads! Problem solved thereafter. Period.
The "great" bankers and ludicrously paid "executives" of today will in the exact same way, not negotiate or relinquish economic power, ever! Why should they?
3, 4, 500 years ago and back, we (civilization) used slaves. A person was 'allowed' to remain alive by the 'owner' and fed enough to 'function'. However, the slave was not permitted/allowed to think or function in any way whatsoever other than what the 'owner' dictated. (sound familiar?
)The frog in cold water being slowly heated does not generally hop out of the pot immediately.
I can very well see the "Captains of industry" being brought to task eventually over their utterly insatiable and voracious pure greed. Greed? What is greed? A synonym for "Loser"? I can just imagine these slave owners thinking.....
How will they be brought to answer? Well, one will eventually have to go hunting them down on their Bizjets/islands/condos/fortifications-in-the-cities/etc.
Will they be able to be targeted? Difficult to say. They own the defence and security and police forces which they fully utilise to protect themselves and their families and friends. But, the forces they use are comprised of "slaves".........
Certainly, like in all history from ancient times forward, the biggest adversary to contend with in attacking these oligoths will be the "traitor". Always present, on both sides luckily......
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308 very good post
For those who do not understand why Jetstar is making more money than Qantas and those who are thinking that the management is doing well to screw the workers GO BACK to read post #98
For those who do not understand why Jetstar is making more money than Qantas and those who are thinking that the management is doing well to screw the workers GO BACK to read post #98
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Bruce,
i can make accounts sing any tune i want them to. it's unbelievably easy.
only take the consolidated accounts and group profit without copious amounts of salt. the individual results mmmmmmmmmm
and how much did QF domestic make? not listed.
there you go.
what the QF board has done is trash the brand. brands are built on trust. abandoning clients with no warning (often O/S and into bad situations (Bangkok) ) does more damage than the unions could ever hope to do.
I run my own business. you do not cut off you nose to spite your face, no matter what the circumstance, esp in a service based industry such as this.
the guy from Rio on the board may have been able to do this in mining, but this is a much different industry, with much more damage done to the brand.
i can make accounts sing any tune i want them to. it's unbelievably easy.
only take the consolidated accounts and group profit without copious amounts of salt. the individual results mmmmmmmmmm
and how much did QF domestic make? not listed.
there you go.
what the QF board has done is trash the brand. brands are built on trust. abandoning clients with no warning (often O/S and into bad situations (Bangkok) ) does more damage than the unions could ever hope to do.
I run my own business. you do not cut off you nose to spite your face, no matter what the circumstance, esp in a service based industry such as this.
the guy from Rio on the board may have been able to do this in mining, but this is a much different industry, with much more damage done to the brand.
ozzybruce:
Suggest you read post # 98 of this thread. It may help to explain some of those "numbers".
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ml#post6778379
Suggest you read post # 98 of this thread. It may help to explain some of those "numbers".
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ml#post6778379