BIRMINGHAM - 5
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I think BA have seriously slipped up at BHX, flights to India and Pakistan could have been profitable for many years if they were to have carried on flying from the regions, however they failed and many others are making a tidy sum from BHX.
Andrew
Andrew
Last edited by ajfreeman; 24th Nov 2012 at 19:24.
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BA/Virgin
There have been numerous posts on here re BA/Virgin and comments attributed to their views as regards Bhx and/or other regional airports.
Hec7or, your view I think is closest to hitting the nail on the head in as much as that you have taken the discussion away from what the airlines want and concentrated more on what the passengers want.
Emirates stands a shining example of this from Bhx, as does Lufthansa and KLM. Once you strip away the significant business travel (extremely valuable as that is) the majority of that which remains has onward travel outside Europe.
These are people that have taken the conscious decision to avoid not only London, but Heathrow. As Hec7or rightly says, for anyone planning onward travel, the place is a 'hellhole'. 'BA wants to fly out of Heathrow, Emirates don't have to'
If another runway were to be added to Heathrow, then so too passenger numbers would escalate. It would still be a 'hellhole'...
Perhaps it is the publicity element that needs improving; you CAN fly to virtually anywhere in the world from Bhx. If BA and Virgin don't want Bhx, then conversely, you the passenger don't need them!
Hec7or, your view I think is closest to hitting the nail on the head in as much as that you have taken the discussion away from what the airlines want and concentrated more on what the passengers want.
Emirates stands a shining example of this from Bhx, as does Lufthansa and KLM. Once you strip away the significant business travel (extremely valuable as that is) the majority of that which remains has onward travel outside Europe.
These are people that have taken the conscious decision to avoid not only London, but Heathrow. As Hec7or rightly says, for anyone planning onward travel, the place is a 'hellhole'. 'BA wants to fly out of Heathrow, Emirates don't have to'
If another runway were to be added to Heathrow, then so too passenger numbers would escalate. It would still be a 'hellhole'...
Perhaps it is the publicity element that needs improving; you CAN fly to virtually anywhere in the world from Bhx. If BA and Virgin don't want Bhx, then conversely, you the passenger don't need them!
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I know first hand and other people that despite the fact that a BA flight from LGW was cheaper than Emirates from BHX....they paid in excess of 300GBP each per passenger just to get a flight from BHX as it was more convenient. Who wants to drive to London to go long haul. There is much more to the UK than just London.
"Its all about economics and business" it normal that BA/VS are negative towards BHX and it is normal that BHX management are negative towards development in the London area.
BHX's catchment area is good and with the runway extension well away it will only be a matter of time that BHX can really show its potential. The last laugh will be on BHX management when the likes of BA / VS miss out to other carrier's.
I still have not got over the fact that BA ditched all their regional bases its disgusting. No other airline in Europe has done this. Legacy airlines in Europe have a presence in many cities around a particular country. Germany is a good example of how Lufthansa use multiple hubs.
Having a rant now....on a side note, I used BHX recently and the parking policy is just horrendous. It's daylight robbery.
"Its all about economics and business" it normal that BA/VS are negative towards BHX and it is normal that BHX management are negative towards development in the London area.
BHX's catchment area is good and with the runway extension well away it will only be a matter of time that BHX can really show its potential. The last laugh will be on BHX management when the likes of BA / VS miss out to other carrier's.
I still have not got over the fact that BA ditched all their regional bases its disgusting. No other airline in Europe has done this. Legacy airlines in Europe have a presence in many cities around a particular country. Germany is a good example of how Lufthansa use multiple hubs.
Having a rant now....on a side note, I used BHX recently and the parking policy is just horrendous. It's daylight robbery.
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Aside from the commercial discussion no one has mentioned that BA and VS when compared to other full service airlines that do fly from BHX (EK, LX, LH, AF and so on) are not (in my experience) actually that good in terms of service and the on board experience. Speak as you find but I would far rather pay a bit more to go with EK from BHX than BA from LHR any day, for both convenience and service.
There is an outside chance that VS could introduce a BHX-MCO or perhaps a Caribbean destination, maybe MBJ once the runway extension is open. BA, just forget it, hell will freeze over before they are seen at BHX again!
There is an outside chance that VS could introduce a BHX-MCO or perhaps a Caribbean destination, maybe MBJ once the runway extension is open. BA, just forget it, hell will freeze over before they are seen at BHX again!
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BHX hub?
Actually BA and VS are right: never say "never", but BHX won't become a hub anytime soon. By creating a hub at a particular airport, it is the airlines who decide which airports become hubs, not airport managements.
No airlines are falling over themselves to create a hub at BHX at present.
That's not to say there's anything wrong with BHX, the same is not happening at other UK airports or at equivelant airports in comparable European countries.
All the carriers mentioned above, AF, EK, KL, LH, TK, etc., do what they all do, feed their respective hubs.
The criticism of BA and VS (if there is any) therefore should be that they are not doing this, as there are no longer flights between LHR and BHX.
If there's money to be made, UK carriers will do longhaul from BHX (or anywhere else for that matter). Years ago, BA and its predecessor BOAC, did trans Atlantic from BHX. They really can't be expected to run loss-making services!
No airlines are falling over themselves to create a hub at BHX at present.
That's not to say there's anything wrong with BHX, the same is not happening at other UK airports or at equivelant airports in comparable European countries.
All the carriers mentioned above, AF, EK, KL, LH, TK, etc., do what they all do, feed their respective hubs.
The criticism of BA and VS (if there is any) therefore should be that they are not doing this, as there are no longer flights between LHR and BHX.
If there's money to be made, UK carriers will do longhaul from BHX (or anywhere else for that matter). Years ago, BA and its predecessor BOAC, did trans Atlantic from BHX. They really can't be expected to run loss-making services!
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 26th Nov 2012 at 21:29.
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If Emirates is the best example how come growth has stuck at twice daily B77Ws whereas in the same period LHR has gone from five daily B773/B77W to mainly A388 and MAN has gone three daily and gets the A380? Indeed MAN also has QR and EY. Also GLA has gone three class before BHX, something that surprised me.
Again, BA would have no feed from their main hub if they served say BHX-FRA/CDG/DXB/EWR whereas LH/AF/EK/UA are feeding from a main hub. This does not stack up as one is operating point to point whereas the other flies not only point to point but to points beyond too. This is a commercial advantage BA wouldn't have so they're not missing out on a market as such, it's simply the other guy has a competitive advantage.
Again, BA would have no feed from their main hub if they served say BHX-FRA/CDG/DXB/EWR whereas LH/AF/EK/UA are feeding from a main hub. This does not stack up as one is operating point to point whereas the other flies not only point to point but to points beyond too. This is a commercial advantage BA wouldn't have so they're not missing out on a market as such, it's simply the other guy has a competitive advantage.
Willy Walsh has made it quite clear that there won't be any BA flights (apart from feeders to LHR) from regional airports. BA have cooked their goose by withdrawing all long haul and short haul flights and other carriers have jumped on the regional bandwagon and are doing pretty well. This means there is no market for BA. No matter how good marketing and sales managers managers are, there is just not the traffic now. There are plenty of reasons why business traffic from BHX is in decline. The main one being successive governments have decimated it.
It's a shame that the 'Silverjets' of the world couldn't have succeeded because they had an excellent product, but no one would use it. Whether it was a good idea to fly from LTN is debatable. LGW in my view would have been better especially as BA can't make New York flights work. The only reason BA do well at LCY is that business traffic 'lives' next door. There is a market for it and it works. What is there now at BHX? nothing!
As for EK as Skipness states what has happened to expansion? At present it seems to be going the other way!
Back in the 90's I worked for Maersk and saw the potential for growth. BA had an excellent hub for European flights and indeed JFK. Economic times took their toll and after 9/11 everything went into meltdown.
It's a shame that the 'Silverjets' of the world couldn't have succeeded because they had an excellent product, but no one would use it. Whether it was a good idea to fly from LTN is debatable. LGW in my view would have been better especially as BA can't make New York flights work. The only reason BA do well at LCY is that business traffic 'lives' next door. There is a market for it and it works. What is there now at BHX? nothing!
As for EK as Skipness states what has happened to expansion? At present it seems to be going the other way!
Back in the 90's I worked for Maersk and saw the potential for growth. BA had an excellent hub for European flights and indeed JFK. Economic times took their toll and after 9/11 everything went into meltdown.
Skipness One Echo
The problem is that what happens in England is exactly the opposite. London and the Southeast benefits from political investment, whether it be the siting the UK national football stadium (Wembley - hardly central to the English nation) or the Olympics (other cities tried and failed - when it came to London's bid, we were all expected to back it). However it will always be so.
Fair point, but the stagnation that EK has seen, has coincided with the arrival on the scene of Turkish who are building a similar sort of hub operation in IST to that which EK have developed in DXB. The market for BHX is always going to be smaller than LHR - in the same way that MUC will never be as big as FRA.
Fairdealfrank
There is no doubt that BHX, or Manchester will never become a UK hub, however the attitude of BA towards anywhere in the UK that isn't London is lamentable. Even in a similarly "one city" country such as France, AF do offer international services from airports other than those in the capital. BA could make money from the regions; but their business model is that they don't want to. If that wasn't the case, profitable carriers, such as Lufthansa wouldn't be serving their regional airports with direct routes to major business centres, not only in near Europe, but further afield.
I don't care whether BA or VS operates from BHX, but my original point is that if, and when English wealth spreads it's way more equally across the country, both will have missed the boat, to the benefit of other European carriers.
Trying to run thinga with a balanced and sustainable view is a political ideal
If Emirates is the best example how come growth has stuck at twice daily B77Ws
Fairdealfrank
No airlines are falling over themselves to create a hub at BHX at presently
I don't care whether BA or VS operates from BHX, but my original point is that if, and when English wealth spreads it's way more equally across the country, both will have missed the boat, to the benefit of other European carriers.
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'...if, and when English wealth spreads it's way more equally across the country...'
That's a big 'IF'. I've just seen Boris on Sky, in India, there to promote even more investment in post-Olympic London.
Sitting in T5 a few months back, I felt that I was in a different country. The UK is so unbalanced economically that we are likely to tip on our end as more people head down there. In fact TFL say that London's population will increase by 1.2 million (equal to the size of Brum) by 2028...so plans are now afoot for Cross Rail 2. Nine Elms, Battersea and Inner South-West London will be the next area soaking up huge amount of infrastructure ££££'s, desperately needed elswewhere in the UK.
And Boris Island (or Amsterdam (London) as Ryanair might call it) will be next.
What is needed is a genuine regional development strategy, but there is no real will, no desire. Working 'down Sarf', I well remember the hostility, by some and the London media, to the originally proposed North of London Eurostar services. For some the Chanel Tunnel's benefits would be their's and they didn't want to share it. I don't see that changing.
That's a big 'IF'. I've just seen Boris on Sky, in India, there to promote even more investment in post-Olympic London.
Sitting in T5 a few months back, I felt that I was in a different country. The UK is so unbalanced economically that we are likely to tip on our end as more people head down there. In fact TFL say that London's population will increase by 1.2 million (equal to the size of Brum) by 2028...so plans are now afoot for Cross Rail 2. Nine Elms, Battersea and Inner South-West London will be the next area soaking up huge amount of infrastructure ££££'s, desperately needed elswewhere in the UK.
And Boris Island (or Amsterdam (London) as Ryanair might call it) will be next.
What is needed is a genuine regional development strategy, but there is no real will, no desire. Working 'down Sarf', I well remember the hostility, by some and the London media, to the originally proposed North of London Eurostar services. For some the Chanel Tunnel's benefits would be their's and they didn't want to share it. I don't see that changing.
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Business class travel
Crew meal wrote
What evidence do you have for this statement? Full service airlines AF,LH,SAS,TK etc seem to be adding services and TXL and ARN seem to doing well so far. Which other UK Airports have seen full service carriers expand? Indeed how many UK Airports still have any full service carries at all?
If you are referring to Emirates loss of passengers at Birmingham remember BHX is sandwiched between EK 5xA380 a day ex LHR and the recent huge expansion of Middle Eastern services at MAN. I'm surprised BHX-DXB passengers haven't fallen by far more. Birmingham Airport and its enviable transport links mean Midlanders can easily travel away from Birmingham Airport too
Daza
There are plenty of reasons why business traffic from BHX is in decline
If you are referring to Emirates loss of passengers at Birmingham remember BHX is sandwiched between EK 5xA380 a day ex LHR and the recent huge expansion of Middle Eastern services at MAN. I'm surprised BHX-DXB passengers haven't fallen by far more. Birmingham Airport and its enviable transport links mean Midlanders can easily travel away from Birmingham Airport too
Daza
Last edited by Daza; 25th Nov 2012 at 15:48.
I'm surprised BHX-DXB passengers haven't fallen by far more. Birmingham Airport and its enviable transport links mean Midlanders can easily travel away from Birmingham Airport too
Daza
Daza
Although full service carriers make up the most of BHX's traffic, how many of them actually fill the premium cabins?
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wasteland
Crewmeal
If you don't mind me saying, what utter b.......! Show me an industrial city which doesn't have wasteland; sadly it is a by-product of a changing industrial landscape. But as the large labour-intensive industries have disappeared, then high-tech industries have taken their place. And the same can be said for Birmingham. And it is these high-tech replacements that have fuelled the increase in business travel with legacy carriers.
Let's have constructive comment not hyperbole.
If you don't mind me saying, what utter b.......! Show me an industrial city which doesn't have wasteland; sadly it is a by-product of a changing industrial landscape. But as the large labour-intensive industries have disappeared, then high-tech industries have taken their place. And the same can be said for Birmingham. And it is these high-tech replacements that have fuelled the increase in business travel with legacy carriers.
Let's have constructive comment not hyperbole.
RealFish
I beggars belief that in the referendum last year for whether or not Birmingham should have an elected mayor, a meagre turnout voted against. Boris has a high profile and can make just such trips, drumming up business and investment for his city - so he should, as mayor it's his job. Birmingham has a council leader - hardly as much clout as an elected mayor.
Still, that's democracy for you. Brummies weren't alone in being so short sighted.
That's a big 'IF'. I've just seen Boris on Sky, in India, there to promote even more investment in post-Olympic London.
Still, that's democracy for you. Brummies weren't alone in being so short sighted.
Show me an industrial city which doesn't have wasteland; sadly it is a by-product of a changing industrial landscape. But as the large labour-intensive industries have disappeared, then high-tech industries have taken their place.
Getting back on track what happened to the airport delegation that went to Chicago a couple of months ago? Any sign of AA/UA restarting a BHX service? No they are busy increasing services into LHR, where the business is!
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Crewmeal I'm surprised you have posted this, normally your posts are thought out and well considered. If airlines weren't able to fill premium cabins why would they fly to Birmingham? Airlines aren't charities and if your statement were true Birmingham would only be served by FR, EZY, ZB etc, this is not the case. Despite your anecdotal evidence of the state of the West Midlands economy what REAL evidence do you have to support your earlier statement about the loss of
Birmingham Airports business passengers?
Some here continously post negative statements about BHX even from supposed "supporters."
Daza
Birmingham Airports business passengers?
Some here continously post negative statements about BHX even from supposed "supporters."
Daza
Last edited by Daza; 25th Nov 2012 at 17:08.
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Lord Mayor
The people of Birmingham voted against having another over-paid Politician so there won't be a Lord Major at least in the next few years. 
Daza
Daza
Last edited by Daza; 25th Nov 2012 at 17:08.
Daza. You only have to plough through the BHX forums to find ppruners commenting on the lack premium traffic on specific routes. Once BHX had excellent club loads across Europe with BA. What's happened to it now? Even GLA has a regular 3 class cabin to DXB, whilst BHX has only a 2 cabin config. I'm sure there are still routes that support premium traffic, for example FRA, ZRH, HAM, DUS, EWR and maybe one or two others.
At one time BHX had LH 747 freighters going to the US with British Leyland cars. What is left in Longbridge now?
At one time BHX had LH 747 freighters going to the US with British Leyland cars. What is left in Longbridge now?
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Any evidence or official figures? This appears to be your opinion and if you worked for Maersk guess where BA took many of their business passengers? If BHX can't support business class travel why would LH have added TXL (soon to see an aircraft upgrade) and HAM, why have SK have added ARN and why are they upgrading their am Copenhagen flight in Summer 2013? Why have AF reinstated full AF service?
As for freight it's now at rural East Midlands that isn't severely night time noise restricted due to the close proximity of Birmingham suburbs.
Daza
As for freight it's now at rural East Midlands that isn't severely night time noise restricted due to the close proximity of Birmingham suburbs.
Daza
Last edited by Daza; 25th Nov 2012 at 17:24.
This appears to be your opinion and if you worked for Maersk guess where BA took many of their business passengers?
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London's wasteland
Crewmeal
London had the biggest wasteland of any city -- the Government turned it into the site for the 2012 Olypics. Oh for Birmingham to have such support for from our MPs.
Longbridge? Have a look at the development taking place....
But if you are and want to be negative, nothing I or anyone else can say will change your mind.
London had the biggest wasteland of any city -- the Government turned it into the site for the 2012 Olypics. Oh for Birmingham to have such support for from our MPs.
Longbridge? Have a look at the development taking place....
But if you are and want to be negative, nothing I or anyone else can say will change your mind.