BIRMINGHAM - 5
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BHX "supporters"
Daza - Brummies are renowned for only seeing the hole and not the doughnut - as an ex-pat Brummy myself I am no different - much to the chagrin of my significant other - even after the positive news re hangar and jobs, lets do some more navel gazing ...... now its started to rain !" oh hum !
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Crew Meal
You give the impression that we had lots of LH 747's heading across the pond. There were, in fact, two or three taking Rover cars across for an exhibition when they were about to do a launch and there was not time to ship them by sea. The freighter[s] dropped in en-route.
On the topic of airfreight, we are frequently visited by An12's and the like bringing in car parts.
David
You give the impression that we had lots of LH 747's heading across the pond. There were, in fact, two or three taking Rover cars across for an exhibition when they were about to do a launch and there was not time to ship them by sea. The freighter[s] dropped in en-route.
On the topic of airfreight, we are frequently visited by An12's and the like bringing in car parts.
David
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Although full service carriers make up the most of BHX's traffic, how many of them actually fill the premium cabins?
Admittedly a very small sample indeed but I have flown on numerous occasions with TK, LX, LH and KL this year from BHX and have not yet seen more than 5 pax in Business Class, on some flights there were none. Airlines at BHX seem to have historically had a problem consistently filling premium cabins, hence the large number of destinations once served but now consigned to the history books. However in this difficult financial climate we shoudl be glad to have the range of full service carriers we do at BHX and the huge range of connections they offer, with expansion this year from AF, SK and LH. There are many i'm sure up at EMA who would be very happy to see KL let alone the others we have at BHX
I really hope LX stick with BHX, they don't seem at all interested in operating their own metal here. Maybe with more premium pax we would actually see their own aircraft?
Admittedly a very small sample indeed but I have flown on numerous occasions with TK, LX, LH and KL this year from BHX and have not yet seen more than 5 pax in Business Class, on some flights there were none. Airlines at BHX seem to have historically had a problem consistently filling premium cabins, hence the large number of destinations once served but now consigned to the history books. However in this difficult financial climate we shoudl be glad to have the range of full service carriers we do at BHX and the huge range of connections they offer, with expansion this year from AF, SK and LH. There are many i'm sure up at EMA who would be very happy to see KL let alone the others we have at BHX
I really hope LX stick with BHX, they don't seem at all interested in operating their own metal here. Maybe with more premium pax we would actually see their own aircraft?
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An interesting debate. If I may add my thoughts:
(i) as I mentioned a few posts ago, I flew EK earlier this month (EK38/37) and Business was full both ways. I appreciate this is not indicative of each day and is only a snapshot but neither do I think there were too many/if any free upgrades since there were (a few) seats free in Economy;
(ii) I think there are two issues here anyway. The first is the traditional legacy carriers which do, by and large, fly to their hubs which is what (apart from LH) we have at BHX. So I don't suppose we can expect BA to offer services from BHX whilst they pursue this strategy which is more or less the same as every other legacy carrier. They are, rightly or wrongly, more interested in serving other markets than the UK regions.
But the second is where BHX does suffer, in my view, which is in a lack of point-to-point services. Other regional airports are ahead of BHX and so we must lose passengers to the likes of EMA, BRS, LTN, MAN etc. Flybe have been dependable and Monarch fantastic in their expansion this year but in my view, there's no real equivalent of the EZY or Jet2 starting services to the likes of LIS, OPO, BUD, PRG etc (I appreciate the EZY to BFS but other routes have hardly followed after it). Is this, surely core, regional European market one on which BHX should focus and not lose too much sleep over whether BA or VS will fly from it?
Scott
(i) as I mentioned a few posts ago, I flew EK earlier this month (EK38/37) and Business was full both ways. I appreciate this is not indicative of each day and is only a snapshot but neither do I think there were too many/if any free upgrades since there were (a few) seats free in Economy;
(ii) I think there are two issues here anyway. The first is the traditional legacy carriers which do, by and large, fly to their hubs which is what (apart from LH) we have at BHX. So I don't suppose we can expect BA to offer services from BHX whilst they pursue this strategy which is more or less the same as every other legacy carrier. They are, rightly or wrongly, more interested in serving other markets than the UK regions.
But the second is where BHX does suffer, in my view, which is in a lack of point-to-point services. Other regional airports are ahead of BHX and so we must lose passengers to the likes of EMA, BRS, LTN, MAN etc. Flybe have been dependable and Monarch fantastic in their expansion this year but in my view, there's no real equivalent of the EZY or Jet2 starting services to the likes of LIS, OPO, BUD, PRG etc (I appreciate the EZY to BFS but other routes have hardly followed after it). Is this, surely core, regional European market one on which BHX should focus and not lose too much sleep over whether BA or VS will fly from it?
Scott
Although full service carriers make up the most of BHX's traffic
Why is premium class capacity so difficult to fill from Brum? Could it be that Midlands business men are more down-to-earth and have a greater interest in keeping their costs down than the bankers, international lawyers and government-employed travellers who may be more likely to use LHR?
(Just an idea
)
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Touching on a point made about not being able to fill premium cabins, BHX can and does. The key is volume and yield against competitors like MAN. Continental used to fly the DC10 on BHX-EWR, nowadays it's a single B757. The last time they tried to take it twice daily, I am told the yield collapsed. Clearly people are flying from elsewhere. When BA ran GLA-JFK. BA sales just sent people via LHR to fly on a "real" aeroplane which is nonsense on stilts as they're supposed to be on the same side.
Not sure where growth is going to come from.
Not sure where growth is going to come from.
LGS6753
I think it depends what you call a low cost airline. TCX and TOM are IT flights, with with a few seats sold as schedules. MON aren't a genuine LoCo - the only ones in your list that are (were) are Baby and Ryanair. All airlines need to be as low a cost as possible, but really of that list Ryanair is the only remaining real LoCo.
OltonPete will probably be able to provide the stats, but I would say that LoCo really provides quite a small share of the cake, in comparison with other regional airports - such as LBA, LPL, BRS, EMA.
As regards the question of yield, I'm sure I remember it being claimed many years ago that NEC and ICC related inbound business traffic provided quite high yields on business routes, but in this day and age, why would any responsible business allow it's employees (or directors) to fritter away the company's travel budget flying business on a 2 hour inter european flight - I know mine won't.
I guess that those with more money than sense in London may have different values.
Not true - most BHX passengers fly on low cost airlines (MON, Baby, Ryanair, TCX and TOM)
OltonPete will probably be able to provide the stats, but I would say that LoCo really provides quite a small share of the cake, in comparison with other regional airports - such as LBA, LPL, BRS, EMA.
As regards the question of yield, I'm sure I remember it being claimed many years ago that NEC and ICC related inbound business traffic provided quite high yields on business routes, but in this day and age, why would any responsible business allow it's employees (or directors) to fritter away the company's travel budget flying business on a 2 hour inter european flight - I know mine won't.
I guess that those with more money than sense in London may have different values.
As regards the question of yield, I'm sure I remember it being claimed many years ago that NEC and ICC related inbound business traffic provided quite high yields on business routes
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Does anyone know of a start date for the new hangar? And am i right in guessing by the little slip a few weeks ago it is D5 that will be behind the design and build?
Last edited by justplanecrazy84; 26th Nov 2012 at 19:27.
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Quote: “There is no doubt that BHX, or Manchester will never become a UK hub, however the attitude of BA towards anywhere in the UK that isn't London is lamentable. Even in a similarly "one city" country such as France, AF do offer international services from airports other than those in the capital. BA could make money from the regions; but their business model is that they don't want to. If that wasn't the case, profitable carriers, such as Lufthansa wouldn't be serving their regional airports with direct routes to major business centres, not only in near Europe, but further afield.”
If BA/VS were to run longhaul from BHX (or GLA, MAN, etc.) there would need to be a very high level of point to point traffic as these flights by-pass their hubs and therefore no good to transfer pax.
Clearly, that business does not exist in sufficient numbers. Maybe the equivelant does exist at MUC for LH. There would be no point running these flights just in order to feed a rival operator’s hub!
As mentioned previously, the only reasonable criticsm of BA and VS may be that they no longer feed their own hubs from BHX.
As for point to point shorthaul, the no frills operators have that sown up.
Quote: “I beggars belief that in the referendum last year for whether or not Birmingham should have an elected mayor, a meagre turnout voted against. Boris has a high profile and can make just such trips, drumming up business and investment for his city - so he should, as mayor it's his job. Birmingham has a council leader - hardly as much clout as an elected mayor.
Still, that's democracy for you. Brummies weren't alone in being so short sighted. ”
Not so short sighted as you imply, ATNotts, it would create yet another and very expensive level of bureaucracy as a district level mayor (as proposed for Birmingham) sits on top of the existing council structure.
Its not just a mayor on a massive salary, perks and pension, the mayor appoints assistants and deputies, chief executives, etc., and many other highly paid functionaries, plus an army of “support staff”.
You’ve only to look at the Greater London Assembly structure to see the waste. And don't forget the "mission creep", and the potential for extravagent "vanity projects" courtesy of the ratepayers!
The citizens of Birmingham have just had this kind of expensive nonsense imposed on them (without an approval referendum) in the form of a police commissioner and the accompanying bureaucracy.
Why would they want it twice?
Perhaps Brummies are more canny than you give them credit for!
If BA/VS were to run longhaul from BHX (or GLA, MAN, etc.) there would need to be a very high level of point to point traffic as these flights by-pass their hubs and therefore no good to transfer pax.
Clearly, that business does not exist in sufficient numbers. Maybe the equivelant does exist at MUC for LH. There would be no point running these flights just in order to feed a rival operator’s hub!
As mentioned previously, the only reasonable criticsm of BA and VS may be that they no longer feed their own hubs from BHX.
As for point to point shorthaul, the no frills operators have that sown up.
Quote: “I beggars belief that in the referendum last year for whether or not Birmingham should have an elected mayor, a meagre turnout voted against. Boris has a high profile and can make just such trips, drumming up business and investment for his city - so he should, as mayor it's his job. Birmingham has a council leader - hardly as much clout as an elected mayor.
Still, that's democracy for you. Brummies weren't alone in being so short sighted. ”
Not so short sighted as you imply, ATNotts, it would create yet another and very expensive level of bureaucracy as a district level mayor (as proposed for Birmingham) sits on top of the existing council structure.
Its not just a mayor on a massive salary, perks and pension, the mayor appoints assistants and deputies, chief executives, etc., and many other highly paid functionaries, plus an army of “support staff”.
You’ve only to look at the Greater London Assembly structure to see the waste. And don't forget the "mission creep", and the potential for extravagent "vanity projects" courtesy of the ratepayers!
The citizens of Birmingham have just had this kind of expensive nonsense imposed on them (without an approval referendum) in the form of a police commissioner and the accompanying bureaucracy.
Why would they want it twice?
Perhaps Brummies are more canny than you give them credit for!
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 26th Nov 2012 at 22:03.
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justplanecrazy84
The work will start in January 
Does anyone know of a start date for the new hangar? And am i right in guessing by the little slip a few weeks ago it is D5 that will be behind the design and build?
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I remember the DC10's to EWR, 242 pax and 33 tonnes of freight a day and it still lost monry. The 2 757's experiment proved that there was demand for more seats, just not enough to fill 2 flights, so a bigger aircraft was needed which CO didn't have.
Monarch hangar, work has already started on the test holes and starts in earnest in January and I'm told it will be huge, 10 narrowbody or 3 787's or 2 773's and a narrowbody tail in between or 1 744. There is already a lot of work being booked in so you can expect the odd unusual visitor.
Monarch hangar, work has already started on the test holes and starts in earnest in January and I'm told it will be huge, 10 narrowbody or 3 787's or 2 773's and a narrowbody tail in between or 1 744. There is already a lot of work being booked in so you can expect the odd unusual visitor.
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Fairdealfrank I acept your point about point to point traffic, however whilst BA can and does offer connecting possibilities what does VS Offer. They are not part of an alliance, they will I agree soon have domestic connections, but as of this ppoint what connectivity do they have. Therefore one would assume that the majority of VS traffic is point to point.
Do we then assume that point to point traffic only wish to fly from the South East, no other wise why does VS fly from Manchester to Las vegas, Orlando and the Carribean.
I am prepared to be shot down here, but this has been raised before, it is down to location why Birmingham does not have as much business as it would like, in reality an hour or less North and it is as easy to get to Manchester where there is greater choice and equally the same is true in a southerly direction to wards the South East airports.
Do we then assume that point to point traffic only wish to fly from the South East, no other wise why does VS fly from Manchester to Las vegas, Orlando and the Carribean.
I am prepared to be shot down here, but this has been raised before, it is down to location why Birmingham does not have as much business as it would like, in reality an hour or less North and it is as easy to get to Manchester where there is greater choice and equally the same is true in a southerly direction to wards the South East airports.
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Access to BHX
I agree pwalhx, access works both ways, being easy to get to means it is easy to get from. Although BHX is my closest and preferred airport (and is just 25 mins away by direct train from Leamington where I live) as a solo traveller with no kids in tow, I can drive to Luton in just over an hour (on a good day mind!), take a direct train to Manchester, with a simple change to get from Piccadilly to the Airport and take a direct train to Reading and get a coach to LHR. Although all take far longer than 25 mins they are very easy journeys and I have done all of these in the last 12 months to catch flights from these airports. With kids and lots of baggage however I would agree that these are not attractive options.
BHX suffers from the fact that people living on the 'edges' of its 'catchment' area are as likely to use EMA, MAN, LTN as BHX. Despite the fact there is a direct flight BHX-TXL I have a friend who lives in Rugby and is flying Easyjet to Berlin this weekend as LTN is just as easy to get to from there (Easy were much cheaper too which swung it). I'm sure other airports must also suffer like BHX losing pax to other airports nearby but perhaps not as badly?
BHX suffers from the fact that people living on the 'edges' of its 'catchment' area are as likely to use EMA, MAN, LTN as BHX. Despite the fact there is a direct flight BHX-TXL I have a friend who lives in Rugby and is flying Easyjet to Berlin this weekend as LTN is just as easy to get to from there (Easy were much cheaper too which swung it). I'm sure other airports must also suffer like BHX losing pax to other airports nearby but perhaps not as badly?
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I know nothing more has been said about QR and BHX but QR are going to use the 787 to LHR the only aircraft i can see it replacing is the 77L.
Would the 77L be to big to start BHX with or would it be ideal?
Would the 77L be to big to start BHX with or would it be ideal?
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justplanecrazy
The 777L is for ultra long routes although a number of airlines use them on shorter journeys which they are not designed for economically.
The ideal plane for BHX would be the 787-8 which Qatar now have. This has the same cabin floor area as a 767-400 and a tad smaller than the A330.
With such long delays in the 787 programme, BHX might find itself getting a A330-200. Qatar have 60 B787S on order three of which have be delivered.
We may be way down their list of priorities for one.
We need to remember though that Qatar still hasn;t set a start date from BHX, and an early summer start looks unlikely now.
Nigel
The 777L is for ultra long routes although a number of airlines use them on shorter journeys which they are not designed for economically.
The ideal plane for BHX would be the 787-8 which Qatar now have. This has the same cabin floor area as a 767-400 and a tad smaller than the A330.
With such long delays in the 787 programme, BHX might find itself getting a A330-200. Qatar have 60 B787S on order three of which have be delivered.
We may be way down their list of priorities for one.
We need to remember though that Qatar still hasn;t set a start date from BHX, and an early summer start looks unlikely now.
Nigel
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Quote: "Fairdealfrank I acept your point about point to point traffic, however whilst BA can and does offer connecting possibilities what does VS Offer. They are not part of an alliance, they will I agree soon have domestic connections, but as of this ppoint what connectivity do they have. Therefore one would assume that the majority of VS traffic is point to point."
Both BA and VS operate hubs at LHR, it is just that VS's is on a smaller scale. Although VS are not part of Star yet, it looks as they will join sooner rather than later. Like BA, VS need to feed their longhaul flights at LHR hence the need to establish domestic in the absence of BD.
A traveller from, say, Bombay to New York and not travelling direct has a choice of BA or VS, if travelling via LHR on just one carrier, and having baggage checked straight through. So it is not accurate to suggest that VS does just point to point.
Quote: "Do we then assume that point to point traffic only wish to fly from the South East, no other wise why does VS fly from Manchester to Las vegas, Orlando and the Carribean."
That's not to say that VS, or BA for that matter do transfer only. Obviously both carriers have a mix of transfer and point to point pax, and clearly we can we assume that all pax want to fly from all areas, but it isn't always profitable for the airlines. VS can make money on MAN-LAS and MAN-MCO, maybe BA believe that they can't, or that can make more elsewhere.
Quote: "I am prepared to be shot down here, but this has been raised before, it is down to location why Birmingham does not have as much business as it would like, in reality an hour or less North and it is as easy to get to Manchester where there is greater choice and equally the same is true in a southerly direction to wards the South East airports."
Don't think you'll be shot down, being squeezed between Heathrow and Ringway certainly doesn't help!
Both BA and VS operate hubs at LHR, it is just that VS's is on a smaller scale. Although VS are not part of Star yet, it looks as they will join sooner rather than later. Like BA, VS need to feed their longhaul flights at LHR hence the need to establish domestic in the absence of BD.
A traveller from, say, Bombay to New York and not travelling direct has a choice of BA or VS, if travelling via LHR on just one carrier, and having baggage checked straight through. So it is not accurate to suggest that VS does just point to point.
Quote: "Do we then assume that point to point traffic only wish to fly from the South East, no other wise why does VS fly from Manchester to Las vegas, Orlando and the Carribean."
That's not to say that VS, or BA for that matter do transfer only. Obviously both carriers have a mix of transfer and point to point pax, and clearly we can we assume that all pax want to fly from all areas, but it isn't always profitable for the airlines. VS can make money on MAN-LAS and MAN-MCO, maybe BA believe that they can't, or that can make more elsewhere.
Quote: "I am prepared to be shot down here, but this has been raised before, it is down to location why Birmingham does not have as much business as it would like, in reality an hour or less North and it is as easy to get to Manchester where there is greater choice and equally the same is true in a southerly direction to wards the South East airports."
Don't think you'll be shot down, being squeezed between Heathrow and Ringway certainly doesn't help!
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 27th Nov 2012 at 19:39.