CARDIFF - 2
Now I am no legal expert but I suggest Ryanair my have an opinion on what you have said about them. I admire your enthusiasm but you really must be careful.
I am afraid all this nonsense is doing Cardiff no good at all and in danger of making it a laughing stock.
I am afraid all this nonsense is doing Cardiff no good at all and in danger of making it a laughing stock.
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Right …..
As far as European city routes are concerned these are already served from/to CWL by KLM and as for this Helvetic ZRH route, I recently ran a CWL/ZRH/CWL price comparison on an online travel agent site, on dates that had the cheaper Helvetic fares, and it was still £100 cheaper to fly CWL/ZRH/CWL with KLM than with Helvetic!
It’ll be hard to find a popular European city that is not served by KLM, or indeed Air France as one can route via CDG also, and KLM currently offer 240 seats in each direction daily from/to CWL to/from Europe and indeed the world.
All this talk that BRS are doing so much better than CWL, that it seems the sun shines out of BRS’s backside or similar, well for European and Worldwide city destinations, in addition to KLM, BRS also have Air France and whatever Sabena are calling themselves this week however the mighty Lufthansa launched services to link BRS with Lufthansa’s worldwide network, a very modestly sized ‘pocket rocket’ operation, well Lufthansa cancelled the service, I think, after only one season due to a lack of interest which goes to prove the point that the ‘city’ passenger numbers in south west (ish) UK just aren’t there.
And as for worldwide destinations I personally booked and travelled, last summer, CWL to Singapore with Air France, I could have booked with KLM but it was some £200 cheaper to book with AF via CDG, and I returned from that trip Manila to Cardiff with KLM thus KLM, Air France, indeed Alitalia can be booked from/to CWL and the world and if travelling CWL to/from N. America one can also book with Delta.
So … if the mighty Lufthansa can’t make a European city destination, with through fares to the world, work out of BRS then what chance has a start-up operator got of making a European city destination, WITHOUT through fares to the world, work out of CWL?
Once KLM’s overall load factors may reach 80% or above, and before KLM may get around to operating larger aircraft on the route, that’ll be the time to encourage a competitor airline in but until such load factors may be achieved … well forget it.
Routes here, there and everywhere are nothing more than the whims of an aircraft enthusiast, a ‘spotter’, and as for surveys …. Well one could ask the public if they would like a by-pass built around their town and if they’d like Tesco’s to reduce the price of baked beans by 1p, the majority would probably answer “Yes” but don’t think for one minute that they’re all about to jump in their cars to drive around the new by-pass to Tesco’s to stock-up with baked beans.
As far as European city routes are concerned these are already served from/to CWL by KLM and as for this Helvetic ZRH route, I recently ran a CWL/ZRH/CWL price comparison on an online travel agent site, on dates that had the cheaper Helvetic fares, and it was still £100 cheaper to fly CWL/ZRH/CWL with KLM than with Helvetic!
It’ll be hard to find a popular European city that is not served by KLM, or indeed Air France as one can route via CDG also, and KLM currently offer 240 seats in each direction daily from/to CWL to/from Europe and indeed the world.
All this talk that BRS are doing so much better than CWL, that it seems the sun shines out of BRS’s backside or similar, well for European and Worldwide city destinations, in addition to KLM, BRS also have Air France and whatever Sabena are calling themselves this week however the mighty Lufthansa launched services to link BRS with Lufthansa’s worldwide network, a very modestly sized ‘pocket rocket’ operation, well Lufthansa cancelled the service, I think, after only one season due to a lack of interest which goes to prove the point that the ‘city’ passenger numbers in south west (ish) UK just aren’t there.
And as for worldwide destinations I personally booked and travelled, last summer, CWL to Singapore with Air France, I could have booked with KLM but it was some £200 cheaper to book with AF via CDG, and I returned from that trip Manila to Cardiff with KLM thus KLM, Air France, indeed Alitalia can be booked from/to CWL and the world and if travelling CWL to/from N. America one can also book with Delta.
So … if the mighty Lufthansa can’t make a European city destination, with through fares to the world, work out of BRS then what chance has a start-up operator got of making a European city destination, WITHOUT through fares to the world, work out of CWL?
Once KLM’s overall load factors may reach 80% or above, and before KLM may get around to operating larger aircraft on the route, that’ll be the time to encourage a competitor airline in but until such load factors may be achieved … well forget it.
Routes here, there and everywhere are nothing more than the whims of an aircraft enthusiast, a ‘spotter’, and as for surveys …. Well one could ask the public if they would like a by-pass built around their town and if they’d like Tesco’s to reduce the price of baked beans by 1p, the majority would probably answer “Yes” but don’t think for one minute that they’re all about to jump in their cars to drive around the new by-pass to Tesco’s to stock-up with baked beans.
Well put PF. Pretty much sums up the situation many of the UK regional airports are in now due to the consolidation of the last few years. I personally dont see what the problem is at CWL. Surely even without WW it should still be handling 1million passengers a year quite comfortably.
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Todays KLM (Morning flight) to Amsterdam is being operated using a Fokker 100 instead of a Fokker 70, is this due to increased demand or will we be seeing the F100 more often ?
Please enlighten me with this matter,
RW
Please enlighten me with this matter,
RW
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Thanks guys, that is exactly what I was thinking. I would like to see the new Air France regional airline that is being launched soon to operate a few flights out of CWL. Anyone think this may happen ? (Air France have had codeshares on the cityhopper flights for years)
Anyone know what it is to be called ?
RW
Anyone know what it is to be called ?
RW
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RW,
Air France have owned KLM, all of KLM, for a number of years now, AF know precisely how many passengers use the KLM service and the final destinations of these passengers ... If AF aren't launching services to/from CWL anytime soon then there is a very good reason for it.
I can recall the days KLM operated Saab340 etc. on the route, these days the smallest aircraft KLM operate are the 80 seater F70 and they've managed to develop the route to justify 3 x F70's per day and over all these years no other operator, Air France, Sabena, Lufthansa etc, has moved in to compete with KLM which gives indication that the business isn't there.
As for leisure routes, well the locals tend to take their 2 week holidays during the summer not to return until the next summer, there's no significant requirement for year round holiday destination flights, the people of Wales seem to either work for 48 weeks per year or they don't work at all
, we'd all like to take our leisure breaks 3 or 4 or more times per year but alas people need to work, people have children attending school, and far from everybody can afford to take 3 or 4 or more holidays per year.
Compare what was happening at Rhoose 20 years ago and, excluding BMIBaby, compare what is happening there now, I'd guesstimate that very little has changed and were we to be having this exchange in 20 years from now I'd suggest that very little will change in the next 20 years also, indeed circa 23 years ago Rhoose even had an aircraft manufacturer across the other side of the airfield, Desmond Norman, of 'Britten-Norman' fame, was manufacturing aircraft across there.
Air France have owned KLM, all of KLM, for a number of years now, AF know precisely how many passengers use the KLM service and the final destinations of these passengers ... If AF aren't launching services to/from CWL anytime soon then there is a very good reason for it.
I can recall the days KLM operated Saab340 etc. on the route, these days the smallest aircraft KLM operate are the 80 seater F70 and they've managed to develop the route to justify 3 x F70's per day and over all these years no other operator, Air France, Sabena, Lufthansa etc, has moved in to compete with KLM which gives indication that the business isn't there.
As for leisure routes, well the locals tend to take their 2 week holidays during the summer not to return until the next summer, there's no significant requirement for year round holiday destination flights, the people of Wales seem to either work for 48 weeks per year or they don't work at all
, we'd all like to take our leisure breaks 3 or 4 or more times per year but alas people need to work, people have children attending school, and far from everybody can afford to take 3 or 4 or more holidays per year.Compare what was happening at Rhoose 20 years ago and, excluding BMIBaby, compare what is happening there now, I'd guesstimate that very little has changed and were we to be having this exchange in 20 years from now I'd suggest that very little will change in the next 20 years also, indeed circa 23 years ago Rhoose even had an aircraft manufacturer across the other side of the airfield, Desmond Norman, of 'Britten-Norman' fame, was manufacturing aircraft across there.
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PF
Indeed, we have all seen the decline. You just have to look at other regional UK Airports, they are also not performing too well at the moment. Latest CAA figures show CWL's total PAX for 2011 to once again be around 1.3 mppa. This is more than most other regional airports (I think) such as Blackpool, Manston, Durham tees valley, Doncaster etc. I cannot also see any growth anytime soon to be honest with you, especially now BMI Baby are leaving, it sends out a signal to other airlines, that if Baby cannot manage it, many others will not.
However, I am not sure of Baby's reasoning to leave the airport, some of the routes had pretty good load factors, so fair enough drop the baddies, but they could have kept a few routes open ...
RW
Indeed, we have all seen the decline. You just have to look at other regional UK Airports, they are also not performing too well at the moment. Latest CAA figures show CWL's total PAX for 2011 to once again be around 1.3 mppa. This is more than most other regional airports (I think) such as Blackpool, Manston, Durham tees valley, Doncaster etc. I cannot also see any growth anytime soon to be honest with you, especially now BMI Baby are leaving, it sends out a signal to other airlines, that if Baby cannot manage it, many others will not.
However, I am not sure of Baby's reasoning to leave the airport, some of the routes had pretty good load factors, so fair enough drop the baddies, but they could have kept a few routes open ...
RW
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Load factors mean relatively little. Unless you know the yields, there is no way of knowing whether the route is working. For all anyone outside bmibaby and the CAA know, the 145 people on that last flight could have paid £4 each, leading to a whopping great loss...
I would bet that baby's logic was very simply that they could make more money using their fleet elsewhere. Simple as that.
TA
I would bet that baby's logic was very simply that they could make more money using their fleet elsewhere. Simple as that.
TA
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I completely agree TA, i think they are moving the 2 based aircraft to Belfast City so that a new hub can be opened there. They will have to gain the trust of the irish passengers now ! Indeed, with regard to yield, MYT made many mistakes with that by offering silly prices for the last few remaining seats, which then damaged profits, so yes.
RW
RW
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Air France
Well technically Air France do not own KLM. They both merged in 2004 and formed the Air France-KLM Group. The group owns the Air France Group and the KLM Group. KLM Cityhopper is 100% subsidiary of the KLM Group.
Air France do offer flights from Cardiff now - a code-share with the daily FlyBe service to GLA-CWL-CDG (AF6532/3), however the timing of the once daily flight isn't great when connecting with other AF services from CDG.
Also Air France have operated from Cardiff in the past - they did have a service to CDG, operated for Saab 340s, back (I think) in 1990.
Air France do offer flights from Cardiff now - a code-share with the daily FlyBe service to GLA-CWL-CDG (AF6532/3), however the timing of the once daily flight isn't great when connecting with other AF services from CDG.
Also Air France have operated from Cardiff in the past - they did have a service to CDG, operated for Saab 340s, back (I think) in 1990.
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Just the one daily flight with Air France?
Pssst:
FOGG/P.MR
AF8348 CWL/AMS 1650/1905
AF2241 AMS/CDG 2045/2200
AF256 CDG/SIN 2330/1805+1
KL804 MNL/AMS 1035/1805
KL1069 AMS/CWL 2030/2050
Total Fare: GBP 667.50
Pssst:
FOGG/P.MR
AF8348 CWL/AMS 1650/1905
AF2241 AMS/CDG 2045/2200
AF256 CDG/SIN 2330/1805+1
KL804 MNL/AMS 1035/1805
KL1069 AMS/CWL 2030/2050
Total Fare: GBP 667.50
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RoyalWelsh,
After my most recent trip to Asia, a day or so after, I popped in to my local Chinese (Cantonese) Take-Away, I've been a client of theirs for some 20+ years so we're really good friends, we have a good banter.
Noticing that I had been away and I was somewhat tanned they enquired whereas I joked I had been to their part of the world, indeed my previous, to that, trip I had actually been in their homeland of Hong Kong having flown to/from HKG with Swiss from BHX (BHX was my local airport at that time), and that I had got back a day or so previously.
They questioned if I had flown from/to LHR to which I told them I had flown from/to CWL which was 5 minutes around the corner from where we were standing. They questioned that one couldn't fly to/from Asia from CWL, I replied of course you can and explained regarding KLM etc.
Until that conversation they had believed they, and their family and friends in HKG, needed to travel with BA, CX, VS etc. via LHR, I mean they're 5 minutes from CWL and they'd be travelling to/from LHR to travel to/from HKG!
My memories fade as to how the CWL/AMS service commenced but I recall it may have been with an F27 aircraft and the route was combined with BRS ..... and all these years later it is 3 F70's per day and nothing to do with BRS.
By comparison BHX/AMS started with Birmingham Executive J31's and/or G1's and/or Netherlines J31's and then SF340's, KLM only took an interest in the BHX route after buying out Netherlines. These days, on a typical day, KLM operate in/out of BHX a F70, an E190, 2 x B737-700's and a B737-800!
Now I have made my friends at the Chinese take-away that they and their family can travel to/from their homeland from the airport around the corner I have confidence that they will make use of the route at a time in the future.
Now I don't need to join any 'Wales Air Reggie Spotters Network' backslapping community to make people aware of a product readily available on their doorstep and such people that do seem to only want more and more partially full aircraft flying in and out rather than promoting the product(s) that already exist!
People that run Chinese restaurants, take-aways are, invariably, all from Hong Kong, how many 'Chinese' eating establishments are there within the CWL catchment area, rather than backslapping and blowing smoke up backsides how about mailshotting every 'Chinese' establishment making them aware of the product, Indian restaurants of KLM CWL/India, any Thai eating establishments CWL/BKK, and so on, and whilst CWL shall never be a BHX it might get larger than F70's one day and alert other operators that perhaps, just perhaps, there is business to be had at CWL!
And this scenario is just an example!
After my most recent trip to Asia, a day or so after, I popped in to my local Chinese (Cantonese) Take-Away, I've been a client of theirs for some 20+ years so we're really good friends, we have a good banter.
Noticing that I had been away and I was somewhat tanned they enquired whereas I joked I had been to their part of the world, indeed my previous, to that, trip I had actually been in their homeland of Hong Kong having flown to/from HKG with Swiss from BHX (BHX was my local airport at that time), and that I had got back a day or so previously.
They questioned if I had flown from/to LHR to which I told them I had flown from/to CWL which was 5 minutes around the corner from where we were standing. They questioned that one couldn't fly to/from Asia from CWL, I replied of course you can and explained regarding KLM etc.
Until that conversation they had believed they, and their family and friends in HKG, needed to travel with BA, CX, VS etc. via LHR, I mean they're 5 minutes from CWL and they'd be travelling to/from LHR to travel to/from HKG!
My memories fade as to how the CWL/AMS service commenced but I recall it may have been with an F27 aircraft and the route was combined with BRS ..... and all these years later it is 3 F70's per day and nothing to do with BRS.
By comparison BHX/AMS started with Birmingham Executive J31's and/or G1's and/or Netherlines J31's and then SF340's, KLM only took an interest in the BHX route after buying out Netherlines. These days, on a typical day, KLM operate in/out of BHX a F70, an E190, 2 x B737-700's and a B737-800!
Now I have made my friends at the Chinese take-away that they and their family can travel to/from their homeland from the airport around the corner I have confidence that they will make use of the route at a time in the future.
Now I don't need to join any 'Wales Air Reggie Spotters Network' backslapping community to make people aware of a product readily available on their doorstep and such people that do seem to only want more and more partially full aircraft flying in and out rather than promoting the product(s) that already exist!
People that run Chinese restaurants, take-aways are, invariably, all from Hong Kong, how many 'Chinese' eating establishments are there within the CWL catchment area, rather than backslapping and blowing smoke up backsides how about mailshotting every 'Chinese' establishment making them aware of the product, Indian restaurants of KLM CWL/India, any Thai eating establishments CWL/BKK, and so on, and whilst CWL shall never be a BHX it might get larger than F70's one day and alert other operators that perhaps, just perhaps, there is business to be had at CWL!
And this scenario is just an example!
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PF
I totally, 100% agree with every single word and character that you have just posted ! TRUE, CWL needs to market their routes better so that everyone truly does know what routes are available to them, along with the connections available in AMS and CDG. It can save them a lot of time and money to fly to these destinations to catch connections, instead of traveling around 200 miles or so to LHR ?
Just randomly mailing indians and chinese people sounds a great idea ! Although you could just create a website/blog etc, that just details the routes available to them, and the 700+ connections at both AMS and CDG.
RW
I totally, 100% agree with every single word and character that you have just posted ! TRUE, CWL needs to market their routes better so that everyone truly does know what routes are available to them, along with the connections available in AMS and CDG. It can save them a lot of time and money to fly to these destinations to catch connections, instead of traveling around 200 miles or so to LHR ?
Just randomly mailing indians and chinese people sounds a great idea ! Although you could just create a website/blog etc, that just details the routes available to them, and the 700+ connections at both AMS and CDG.
RW
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RW,
Such people will only find a website or blog if they happen to stumble across it and often by accident.
What do restaurant personnel do, literally, every moment they are at work?
They talk to people, they take orders, they make conversation, it's called 'networking', provide them with the ammunition and they'll do the firing, indeed send them promotional material to display on their walls etc!
Such people will only find a website or blog if they happen to stumble across it and often by accident.
What do restaurant personnel do, literally, every moment they are at work?
They talk to people, they take orders, they make conversation, it's called 'networking', provide them with the ammunition and they'll do the firing, indeed send them promotional material to display on their walls etc!
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I will have to put up some promotional material in work !
Seriously though, I do not think that the airport markets its routes very well, what exactly are the management doing there, i mean there is no route or airline news, hardly any marketing outside of the CWL website. They must just wander around the terminal and apron all day wondering where all the aircraft and passengers have gone !
Seriously though, I do not think that the airport markets its routes very well, what exactly are the management doing there, i mean there is no route or airline news, hardly any marketing outside of the CWL website. They must just wander around the terminal and apron all day wondering where all the aircraft and passengers have gone !
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RW,
Who is responsible for marketing a KLM product, who has most to gain from that KLM product?
KLM or the airport?
There is marketing outside of the airport website, KLM have a website, BMIBaby, Helvetic also, there is BMIBaby graffiti splattered all over the X91 buses etc.
Trouble is, perhaps, that those buses only operate around the Cardiff and airport areas ... a little alike BHX, one is deafened by BMIBaby jingles on the monorail between station and airport ... by that late stage every single passenger has already selected their airline and purchased their ticket(s)!!!
Who is responsible for marketing a KLM product, who has most to gain from that KLM product?
KLM or the airport?
There is marketing outside of the airport website, KLM have a website, BMIBaby, Helvetic also, there is BMIBaby graffiti splattered all over the X91 buses etc.
Trouble is, perhaps, that those buses only operate around the Cardiff and airport areas ... a little alike BHX, one is deafened by BMIBaby jingles on the monorail between station and airport ... by that late stage every single passenger has already selected their airline and purchased their ticket(s)!!!