DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 5
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Near MME, England, UK
Age: 35
Posts: 866
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For all we know the other offers were lower still? Who cares, you can't change the fact that it happened!
If the councils do find money again, it won't be a fraction of the kind of money needed to run an airport.
As for the petition, you say 2000 people have signed it like that's a large number? There are 7.12 million people in our two hour catchment area. I would guess that OldManJoe - like most people - hasn't signed said petition because it's a load of rubbish from someone who obviously knows nothing about what the real goal is or business in general - which makes me wonder if you started it Beafer?
If the councils do find money again, it won't be a fraction of the kind of money needed to run an airport.
As for the petition, you say 2000 people have signed it like that's a large number? There are 7.12 million people in our two hour catchment area. I would guess that OldManJoe - like most people - hasn't signed said petition because it's a load of rubbish from someone who obviously knows nothing about what the real goal is or business in general - which makes me wonder if you started it Beafer?
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Here there and everywhere!
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beafer, how much more clearly does it have to be spelt out. 
Who else offered to buy the place and keep it open by accepting the losses? If there was, then go and ask the councils under a FOI request. £500k... add in the £20m+ that Peel have paid either in losses or money spent just to keep the place compliant with the CAA regulations.
Passenger for KLM and Eastern still travel through the airport. The charter flights were costing too much. Think of it a running a shop. You have an increased number of customers for 13 weeks of the year. You have to employ twice the staff to cope with number of customers. Your staff need to be trained to do the job. You have to pay for these staff for the remaining 39 weeks of the year. The increased custom during the 13 weeks of the year doesn't pay enough for you to pay the staff for the other 39 weeks of the year. What do you do? Suck up the losses and eventually go bust or downsize the business and stay afloat. Part of the downsize means you can't handle the increase during the 13 weeks of the year but you can continue with the rest of the business which is there 52 weeks of the year and this is what pays the bills.
It's simple business sense, not rocket science.
The councils don't have the money to keep the place open. If the councils still owned it, it would have closed and turned into a housing estate/business park long before now.
Where would the local councils find the money to keep the place open and invest in its future? Councils are already cutting departments within themselves due to the savage cuts.
They are unlocking the capital from the surplus land and investing this back in to the airport. There is a Section 108 Agreement in place to ensure this happens. Guess you haven't read the full Master Plan cover to cover.
Yes, they are ANPR cameras. If these worry you, blame the terrorists that wish to do harm to the likes of you and I.
How do you know? Do you know me personally?
Not exactly a high percentage then based on the population of Middlesbrough. Stockton and Darlington alone. 0.00453% have signed the petition.
There were other offers on the table, thats the point, why give the whole place away for £500k? Its a joke of a price. Who decided on giving it to Peel? Names anyone?
The lack of holiday flights may be why no passengers visit the airport now.
It's simple business sense, not rocket science.
If the airport was in council hands and they did own all of the land again, what's to say the money couldn't be found when the recession finishes and it could become operational again?
Where would the local councils find the money to keep the place open and invest in its future? Councils are already cutting departments within themselves due to the savage cuts.
It might save a property developer having to build on all of it which I expect will happen in the end.
Whats the small round camera at the entrance to the access road which leads to the motorhome site?
Is it one of those police ANPR cameras which the press say is used to record number plates of passing cars? Why is on the back road and not the main access road?
Is it one of those police ANPR cameras which the press say is used to record number plates of passing cars? Why is on the back road and not the main access road?
Its worth buying the Evening gazette for all the letters about DTV Airport.
The latest letter states 2000 people have signed the petition.
I couldn't see Old Man joe's name there yet?
The latest letter states 2000 people have signed the petition.
I couldn't see Old Man joe's name there yet?
Not exactly a high percentage then based on the population of Middlesbrough. Stockton and Darlington alone. 0.00453% have signed the petition.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The charter flights were costing too much.
Potential Customer : "Hi we'd like to use your failing airport for the purpose of putting fare paying passengers on an aeroplane to take them on holiday with a view to repeat business?"
Airport Operator : "Sorry we can't afford to let you pay us money for the use of our facilities."
Does this happen anywhere else? Most businesses understand the concept of a loss leader.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Near MME, England, UK
Age: 35
Posts: 866
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by OldManJoe
Think of it a running a shop. You have an increased number of customers for 13 weeks of the year. You have to employ twice the staff to cope with number of customers. Your staff need to be trained to do the job. You have to pay for these staff for the remaining 39 weeks of the year. The increased custom during the 13 weeks of the year doesn't pay enough for you to pay the staff for the other 39 weeks of the year. What do you do? Suck up the losses and eventually go bust or downsize the business and stay afloat. Part of the downsize means you can't handle the increase during the 13 weeks of the year but you can continue with the rest of the business which is there 52 weeks of the year and this is what pays the bills.
It's simple business sense, not rocket science.
It's simple business sense, not rocket science.
No it doesn't happen anywhere else - and that's why the likes of Newcastle and Leeds are in hundreds of millions of pounds worth of debt, something which DTVA has none of, and if the business plan works out, the airport will be one of very very few in the country to eventually make a small profit.
While Skipness has a point, so does DTV
1 or 2 flights per week doesn't justify the extra staffing costs. However if a commercial passenger airport is saying it won't handle a B737 / A320 then there needs to be a very particular market niche for the airport. LCY gets away with it because of its location and all the corporate cash sloshing around for people whose salary per hour is very high. Salary in Darlington is not so high...
DTV management are effectively saying they think the chances of regular passenger flights in the future beyond the current state..... is nil
1 or 2 flights per week doesn't justify the extra staffing costs. However if a commercial passenger airport is saying it won't handle a B737 / A320 then there needs to be a very particular market niche for the airport. LCY gets away with it because of its location and all the corporate cash sloshing around for people whose salary per hour is very high. Salary in Darlington is not so high...
DTV management are effectively saying they think the chances of regular passenger flights in the future beyond the current state..... is nil
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No it doesn't happen anywhere else - and that's why the likes of Newcastle and Leeds are in hundreds of millions of pounds worth of debt,
. What do you do? Suck up the losses and eventually go bust or downsize the business and stay afloat.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Middlesbrough U.K.
Age: 86
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said Skipness One Echo. You build up a business to make profit not run it down. Peel appears to clearly have one objective and that has nothing to do with aircraft. Tees Valley Housing Estate.
So true
Skip ness. Spot on!
All you guys. Please tell me. What are you looking for. What do you expect? The airport is dying mainly thanks to peel policies and business
Klm will be gone within 2 years.if Liverpool next to manc couldn't work what chance has here! Eastern great little company but always fighting the rising tide(sorry) see their thread....
Why turn ANY BUSINESS away. Speechless....
All you guys. Please tell me. What are you looking for. What do you expect? The airport is dying mainly thanks to peel policies and business
Klm will be gone within 2 years.if Liverpool next to manc couldn't work what chance has here! Eastern great little company but always fighting the rising tide(sorry) see their thread....
Why turn ANY BUSINESS away. Speechless....
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Here there and everywhere!
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Analogy time.
You run a hire car company with a fleet of small cars. You have a small base of customers who use these cars. You don't have enough customers to make a profit but you have deep pockets and can sustain the losses for the time being.
A customer comes along and wants to hire prestige cars from you. You don't have any. To buy these prestige cars will cost you £50k. The rental of the prestige cars will only bring in £5k. The cars will need replacing in 12 months time and you won't sell them for £45k to at least break even. Do you subsidise the customer who wishes to rent the prestige cars from you and take even greater losses or do you turn away the business?
What you do is look for customers that want the products you currently have and expand your customer base without increasing your costs.
Once you're making a profit, you can invest in prestige cars with the plan to enter the prestige car hire market.
A loss leader is only of use if the customer is likely to buy a product you have with enough profit to cover the losses and to ensure you still make a profit.
You run a hire car company with a fleet of small cars. You have a small base of customers who use these cars. You don't have enough customers to make a profit but you have deep pockets and can sustain the losses for the time being.
A customer comes along and wants to hire prestige cars from you. You don't have any. To buy these prestige cars will cost you £50k. The rental of the prestige cars will only bring in £5k. The cars will need replacing in 12 months time and you won't sell them for £45k to at least break even. Do you subsidise the customer who wishes to rent the prestige cars from you and take even greater losses or do you turn away the business?
What you do is look for customers that want the products you currently have and expand your customer base without increasing your costs.
Once you're making a profit, you can invest in prestige cars with the plan to enter the prestige car hire market.
A loss leader is only of use if the customer is likely to buy a product you have with enough profit to cover the losses and to ensure you still make a profit.
Think of it as running a shop
Had the costs increased that much between signing the contract with Thomson's and then cancelling the flights (and that's Thomson's, not some two bit outfit). Would make you think twice before signing a long term contract with these guys.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Here there and everywhere!
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At a guess to go from Cat 4 to Cat 6 costs somewhere in the region of £225,000 per annum in staffing alone. On top, you have equipment to maintain and professional development to consider.
Shop staff are rather easier to find at the drop of a hat than fully trained, licensed and current professional staff required at an airport.
Shop staff are rather easier to find at the drop of a hat than fully trained, licensed and current professional staff required at an airport.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PIK survived by multi tasking fire crews as baggage handlers with no impact on safety. I would say "professional development" be damned given the situation. The business is in freefall and has failed to prove they can adapt to the needs of the market, to the point of turning away blue chip business. Once you do that, people don't come back.
They have succesfully established the notion that the business cannot deal with charters from the UK's largest and most respected holiday airline. The distance to saying that they cannot make money from remaining passenger activity is tiny, yet "true believers" continue to take the party line that this nonsensical two fingers to trade, is somehow a good thing. From an outsider's perspective, it seems utterly bizarre. The industry has already forgotten MME is even open for business. Why? Because management have made clear they don't want any.
They have succesfully established the notion that the business cannot deal with charters from the UK's largest and most respected holiday airline. The distance to saying that they cannot make money from remaining passenger activity is tiny, yet "true believers" continue to take the party line that this nonsensical two fingers to trade, is somehow a good thing. From an outsider's perspective, it seems utterly bizarre. The industry has already forgotten MME is even open for business. Why? Because management have made clear they don't want any.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Durham
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
By running just quite expensive flights to Amsterdam and very expensive flights to Aberdeen and charging £6 a head to use very limited facilities the airport just makes itself irrelevant to the majority of the potential passengers. The charter flights were the ones more of the people wanted to use. Peel can hardly count writing off operating losses against tax as investment.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Near MME, England, UK
Age: 35
Posts: 866
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Skipness One Echo
From an outsider's perspective
Originally Posted by Skipness One Echo
yet "true believers" continue to take the party line that this nonsensical two fingers to trade, is somehow a good thing.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The place doesn't work, I think that's the key point. I gave you PIK as the model where the business was right sized into growth, then stalled under hopeless new management but it can be done. They went to market, got new business and made it pay.
Peel have sent a clear signal to "clueless outsiders" like me who believe the business is failing and heading for closure and a sale of the land. They have done this by telling Thomson, a large well respected creditable carrier of passengers that MME doesn't want their business. That in one stroke will kill off any similar new business. Are there many other Eastern like airlines? No, Eastern are the last survivor in the UK of their kind. KLM? Year on year numbers falling even as the economy recovers. Why? Because the market thinks the business is doomed and the place smells of death. You are being made fools of.
No one is going to do business in these curcumstances, especially with NCL and LBA as much more amenable options. I don't give two hoots what management "say", sit back and watch what they've done.
Continue to preside over falling throughput from the last two operators whilst telling anyone else who might want to fly from MME to do one.
It's a slow motion car crash of a business run down, and you sir won't believe it until the houses are being built. No other airport on the whole planet has had a "recovery" such as this.
Peel have sent a clear signal to "clueless outsiders" like me who believe the business is failing and heading for closure and a sale of the land. They have done this by telling Thomson, a large well respected creditable carrier of passengers that MME doesn't want their business. That in one stroke will kill off any similar new business. Are there many other Eastern like airlines? No, Eastern are the last survivor in the UK of their kind. KLM? Year on year numbers falling even as the economy recovers. Why? Because the market thinks the business is doomed and the place smells of death. You are being made fools of.
No one is going to do business in these curcumstances, especially with NCL and LBA as much more amenable options. I don't give two hoots what management "say", sit back and watch what they've done.
Continue to preside over falling throughput from the last two operators whilst telling anyone else who might want to fly from MME to do one.
It's a slow motion car crash of a business run down, and you sir won't believe it until the houses are being built. No other airport on the whole planet has had a "recovery" such as this.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: England, UK
Age: 60
Posts: 524
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The way I see it, DTVA needs two things to restore confidence; some kind of aviation-related construction to take place so that the media / local public / airlines can see for themselves investment is being made, this will come with the hangars that get built following the sale of land for housing which, as OldManJoe stated, is legally required to be built under the terms of a Section 108 agreement.
Secondly, a new route - of any description, and based on something vague I heard recently, that might not be too far away.
Secondly, a new route - of any description, and based on something vague I heard recently, that might not be too far away.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Durham
Age: 79
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many times have we heard that there might be a new route coming!
Do Peel want them anyway? I have supported the airport since 1969, how can I now when there are no holiday routes.
Do Peel want them anyway? I have supported the airport since 1969, how can I now when there are no holiday routes.
Perhaps some of the more devoted members on here should read the below report, and remember that when they are attending these 'friendly' meetings with management, they are meeting with passionate people who are doing their best with the limited resources made available to them by those higher up in the Peel chain...
http://media.wix.com/ugd/440822_22c6...d57426cd04.pdf
http://media.wix.com/ugd/440822_22c6...d57426cd04.pdf
Last edited by pug; 12th Feb 2014 at 12:39.