LEEDS 5

[pug]

Knavesmire Express is right. I flew on the early morning LBA-DUB a couple of months ago, it took me around 15 minutes to drive from the motorway junction at Elland Road to the airport. And the same coming back too.

he road connectionc are not perfect at all, but they are no where near as bad as people like to make out.

[Teevee]

You know, as well as the whole (largely fictitious!) 'catchment area' thing this really cheeses me off. Why is it that LBA and DSA are 'hard to get to because of road connections and MAN isn't? DSA hard to get to? Rubbish! LBA difficult to get to RUBBISH - and if you anticipate congestion in Leeds Centre there's another way round the top of Leeds that all the taxi drivers use and is no problem at all ... now let me think ...MAN??? With all those motorways should be easy right? But guess where's the only airport in the North that I've been stuck fretting in a traffic jam- you'll only need one!
LBA doesn't desparately need nor does its future depend on a new road link. That is just a smoke screen put up by opponents!

[pwalhx]

So one time you got stuck in traffic that means the road links to Manchester are bad. That is crazy to compare an airport that is directly linked to a motorway and has a rail link with 2 that have neither is ridiculous. I worked at LBA for 5 years I know hwat it is like to get there from halifax, some mornings and evenings was fine however a lot of the time it was frankly awful. It depends where, when etc. Fact is LBA would benefit from a better road link.

[Teevee]

Somebody else who doesn't actually read what is there but what he thinks is there! I didn't say LBA wouldn't benefit from a new link, I said it didn't need one to be successful half as much as some people seem to think. In fact, I'm guessing that it is the way of these things that you have to be VERY successful before anyone'll commit to a road link ... and then some! Good God, it is the way of this country to be reactive not proactive - more is the pity! Nor did I say I'd only got stuck ONCE going across to MAN!

[pwalhx]

I said would benefit from, not needs. And I apologise if I misread your comment about Manchester as being once.

However as someone who has worked at both Manchester and Leeds I stand by my comments.

[righthandrule]

The Airport will not see and major transport improvements in the short to medium term. John Parkin has publicly stated this, just look at Bristol. It has flourished despite having pretty poor transport links compared to other airports. Just because Manchester arguably good transport links (I have yet to have an easy journey from Leeds to Manchester Airport) does not mean it can or will be any more successful than competing Airports.

The LCC have completely changed the market, people are quite happy to be in a queue, have to change trains and busses and take poor roads to get a cheap flight. This is the basis that Airports like Bristol have grown, and is the basis that LBA will grow. Yes, LBA has a LONG way to go, but it is heading in the right direction when many Airports and Aviation organisations are not. Transport links will not directly affect the growth of any Airport, it will simply improve the passenger convenience - but simply apply the Ryanair effect on Airports and no one cares if they are a buggery to get to, it's all about the £.

Manchester is bang next to a Motorway and has seen passenger numbers fall dramatically over the last 12 months, Leeds Bradford is a good treck from the nearest motorway and passenger numbers have soared over the last 12 months. One reason - the availability of cheap flights.

[Ian Brooks]

Two main reasons Manchester dropped
1) Ryanair pulling ( no real loss)
2) huge drop in MAN/LHR due vastly improved rail link
Man Scheduled pax has now been rising at constant 6 to 9% for last 6 months really as soon as volcanic dust stopped figures only let down by Dom/Charter (many of which are now becoming scheduled)
Leeds have now got the Ryanair effect which has bolstered figures

Ian

[righthandrule]

My point exactly Nothing to do with the Transport links.

[g_tripp60]

Forget the car

All the discussion on surface access ignores the fact that there are those of us that prefer to use public transport (preferably the train). In order to get to MAN, all I have to do is get to the nearest rail station.

Getting to LBA by rail is not an option. As someone who travels on business, usually just with hand luggage, access by rail is a big advantage for me.

[batninth]

Winds on Friday 4th February

Can anyone explain what was score last night with a/c on approach to LBA please? I live in East Leeds & can normally see a/c being routed in from the south arriving roughly over the M1/M62 junction & then heading straight in.

When walking the dog last night around 7pm-ish, I could see a/c routing pretty to much as normal to the M1/M62 junction & turning as normal, then they seemed to follow an S-curve over our way to the East of the city before turning back in the direction of the airport. This was consistent over the four a/c I saw arriving.

Just wondered what was going on to force this change, can anyone provide enlightenment here?

[Runway 32/14]

The aircraft might have been taking up a "Holding position" due to the wind.....several aircraft had to divert because they couldnt land at LBA.

[LBIA]

The provisional passenger stats are now out for January 2011. Some good numbers for Leeds/Bradford again.

LBA = 140,168 (up 32.7%) - rolling year now up to 2,758,378 (up 8.9%).

Atms for the month were also up by 21.4%

So it looks like the Ryanair impact is now coming through quite strongly and LBA is now not far off hitting the 3 mppa if it continues to keep on growing with stats like these.

[Manchester Kurt]

It did snow an awful lot in Jan 2010.

[whoshotjimmi]

Hi everyone, long time reader first time poster.
I finally decided to take the plunge and post because the emotive subject of surface access has taken prevalence recently and it is a subject which interests me.
Runway32/14 mentioned building a new airport next to the M1 and, whilst that does sound far-fetched (and indeed will never happen); the theory is sound and the benefits enormous. As far as I am aware, the main usage of the land around that area is landfill so, potentially, in a number of years this will be unused, undesirable land. It sits next to the M1 motorway with close links to the M62 and A1 which would put it within a 45 min drive of the likes of Sheffield, York etc. and 1 hour of Hull and North East Manchester. It would be sat directly next to a railway line with rapid links to other population centres as well as the centre of Leeds and also next to the A63 - which is a newly built and completely underused road - direct into the centre of Leeds (10 mins to the bus and rail stations). The runway, due to the local geography, would be south west facing and have a length of upwards of 3,000m. Aircraft routed into and out of the airport would automatically miss local population centres (other than the small village of Swillington) Too good to be true? Definitely. As I said before, it would never happen. As it is, the owners of LBA are forced to strive to improve a site of limited space with a sub standard length runway, with geographical limitations, that is (incredibly) prone to bad weather and rubbernecks with greenbelt land along the most congested corridor in Leeds/Bradford. And it is with this in mind that the subject of surface access has to be looked at very carefully.
It is entirely true what people say about the "Ryanair effect". People care about their hard earned spondulics, more now than ever, and it is entirely reasonable to think that growth can happen purely on this basis - Liverpool, Bristol, Luton - all perfect examples of how this is possible. But that is not the only force at work here. We are at a stage now where the airport is flirting with longer haul operations, where the feasibility of routes such as New York and Dubai are being questioned. In essence, the next stage of development. What should also be considered is the fact that within 5 to 10 years, the world will see the likes of aircraft (787 and A350) whose operational capabilities will be ideally suited to runways of the ilk of LBA. In essence, technology is bridging the gap that is created with the problem of a short runway, which effectively eliminates that issue. The problem then lies in trying to attract airlines that will operate these aircraft to the field. And that is where the surface access issue raises its head. Whilst the likes of Ryanair, Easyjet, Flybe, BMIBaby, Jet2 etc are quite happy to operate with existing facilities as long as they get the lowest price possible, flag carriers such as Emirates, Ethiad, American Airlines, Continental etc (the airlines that a long haul operation would theoretically utilise) have more stringent stipulations for operating that service. Terminal development is a given - to expand passenger operations, the terminal has to be able to deal with a higher throughput of passengers. News is (potentially) good with that in mind with the promise of a redeveloped terminal building which leaves surface access as the remaining problem.
LBA has a huge problem in trying to attract long haul operations - Manchester. Effectively, what LBA has to do to attract such a service is compete with them or provide a compelling enough argument to show why an extra service can be accommodated. Lack of a rail link and average to poor road links (depending on your point of origin) do not bode well in that argument. The airline needs to see the potential of the route and the perceived inability of people to get to the airport from surrounding areas (areas that have a rail link with Manchester) would undoubtedly negatively affect any negotiation. Whilst the likes of Ryanair are able to chop and change at will, a flag carrier will put a lot more planning and organisation into a long haul link and then expect it to easily achieve all targets (targets will be very tough) and add to profitability. In order to meet all the criteria for sending that aircraft to LBA, the marketability of the airport has to be spot on. So, in summary, new planes able to operate off existing runway - check. Terminal able to handle 5mppa - check (possibly). Potential customer base? Millions in Yorkshire and the North East, all of whom will be quite happy to and many of whom will find it much easier to travel to Manchester for the same flight. Manchester, the airport with longer runways, better equipment, bigger terminal building, dedicated railway station with links to most of the North of England, dedicated motorway, years of experience of long haul that is not prone to bad weather - in other words, the obvious choice. That is why surface access is a big issue and why the future of the airport should be looked at with that in mind.
I have read a lot of comments on here about surface access and people tend to take one side or the other. I don't think there is a definite side on which to sit - the airport has the ability to expand without vastly improved surface access but - along with other, fixable inadequacies - will not be able to reach its full potential.
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']James[/FONT]

[LBIA]

I see the Snow this morning has caused havoc up at LBA. The runway was closed for a while for snow clearing. And to make matters worse the fog has now rolled in.

This mornings P&O Caribbean Cruise departure was diverted to Manchester, but that’s a normal thing for Thomson’s while a Jet2 inbound from Belfast Int’l also diverted

It also seems that LBA have implemented new low visibility procedure which is creating some long delays. Only one aircraft movement on the ground is allowed at any given time. Outbound aircraft are been given more than an hour delay for pushback and its having a knock effect along with the required de-icing. Meanwhile inbound aircraft are going straight into the overhead LBA hold and then been given an estimated approach times.

Is this a new requirement by the authorities or a management decision due to LBA not having ground Radar?

[easyflyer83]

whoshotjimmi. A good read but you are off the mark in some respects. First, LBA might be able to "bag" a couple of long haul routes but these, in my opinion, are likely to be restricted to charter, Dubai, Pakistan and perhaps a New York. LBA, next to the M1 or otherwise, will always struggle next to MAN. It's not just all about surface links but also the local economy and unfortunately the NorthWest economy has the more compelling case whilst serving Yorkshire at the same and aswell as the North Midlands and the North East.

Also you'd be very surprised to hear that low cost operators often have as many stipulations on the airport as a full service/long haul carrier, just different ones. Sometimes the airport has to jump through even more hoops for the LCC's. Appearances can be deceptive.

[whoshotjimmi]

Firstly, may I apologise for my poor formatting! Just trying to get my head around it.

Easyflyer83 - I agree with everything you have said. I do not believe, nor do I think anyone believes that LBA will ever compete with Manchester. I am also aware of the highly aggressive negotiating tactics (particularly those of ryanair) employed by LCC's. What I am talking about here is reaching full potential. As I mentioned, growth is very much possible within the parameters that the airport currently operates. But full potential will require a whole host of changes and improvements, chief among which is the accessability of the field.

A site next to the M1 with a rail link would help in terms of becoming a viable option to many people in so far as the current site is not. Since that will never happen, the accessability of the existing airport is important in attracting new customers and potentially stealing one or two from the noisy neighbours. Whilst I believe the limit of long haul from LBA would be exactly as you describe, I don't believe it is acheivable with the current set up.

My firm belief is that, in the short to medium term at least, LBA should be looking to expand in the short to medium haul sector. Perhaps the likes of Ryanair would do a better job with a Madrid rotation, maybe a FlyBe type operation with a Q400 would make a better hash of a Copenhagen - I don't know, I am just speculating - but I feel this is where the majority of growth, if any, is likely to be. There is no doubt that a small long haul operation would be welcomed at LBA and, with the right management, could be made a success. But the aforementioned issue would have to be dealt with.

Just for the record, the economy of the North West has grown around the success of Manchester airport. With economical growth, the airport has been able to expand further. Manchester airport has been a huge success for many, many years now having done all the right things to achieve that success. North Western regeneration is due, at least in part, to this success. When businesses are looking for alternatives to London, the benefits of other cities are looked at and one such benefit is an airport that has decent links to many parts of the world.

[easyflyer83]

Fair point but I don't agree that the Northwest economy has been spearheaded by MAN. Certainly for Greater Manchester I'd attribute this in part to the huge regeneration of Central Manchester. Leeds is still the financial centre after London but this isn't down to LBA either.

[CabinCrewe]

Leeds, biggest financial centre after London ? Dont think so....
New European Economy - Edinburgh boosts its status as top tier European location

FT.com / Comment / Analysis - Edinburgh finds itself on a downward curve

[Runway 32/14]

Leeds biggest finacial city outside London...I think So:

http://www.marketingleeds.com/downlo..._factsheet.pdf