British Airways: risk of turbulence on Willie Walsh’s flight path
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Usually through the various website forums that crew access, someone would have started a topic about light loads, but on the contrary the comments are how busy we are. I guess the figures must be true, but where are the empty aircraft?
Funny how with all this bad data about loads dropping off, that Willie Walsh sees it fit to start a new airline and go on a spending spree acquiring another. Surely BA cannot be so splashed with cash that they can spend tens of millions setting up OS to fly empty aircraft from Orly to JFK? There must be another reason?
Cabin crew will have to make some sacrifices, and so will other areas at BA.
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I think everyone in Virgin, BA etc will all have to make big sacrifices. The tough times are already here and some people need to open their eyes to this fact.
The Flight Attendants at BA will scream and shout desperate to hold on to their huge pay packets. I do not doubt the Flight Attendants union will call for action, but unless airlines act now it will be nothing but a slow painful death. I am not surprised that WW is looking to save money, I bet Virgin do not pay their onboard managers £60k a year, they can probably hire two for that pot of money.
I also read with a smile how so many crew at BA think with much smugness that they are far superior to all other airlines. I guess the managers tell you this day in day out, but to be honest you are not the best. I have seen crew sweet talk passengers then give them a questionnaire to complete, probably hoping the customer will stroke their ego, I bet the questionnaires that do not reflect well for crew end up in the bin. Seriously please don't believe the hype there are other carriers out there with really good crew who go the extra mile day in day out.
That said I have had some good flights with BA but I have had some superb flights with Qantas and Singapore.
PS How much do BA pay their Supervisors?
The Flight Attendants at BA will scream and shout desperate to hold on to their huge pay packets. I do not doubt the Flight Attendants union will call for action, but unless airlines act now it will be nothing but a slow painful death. I am not surprised that WW is looking to save money, I bet Virgin do not pay their onboard managers £60k a year, they can probably hire two for that pot of money.
I also read with a smile how so many crew at BA think with much smugness that they are far superior to all other airlines. I guess the managers tell you this day in day out, but to be honest you are not the best. I have seen crew sweet talk passengers then give them a questionnaire to complete, probably hoping the customer will stroke their ego, I bet the questionnaires that do not reflect well for crew end up in the bin. Seriously please don't believe the hype there are other carriers out there with really good crew who go the extra mile day in day out.
That said I have had some good flights with BA but I have had some superb flights with Qantas and Singapore.
PS How much do BA pay their Supervisors?
Paxing All Over The World
Another Pax speaking ...
This recession is going to squeeze a LOT of people. Here is the experience of a friend of mine from the 90/92 recession. He was working in I.T. (still is) and on contracts. He was doing very well and getting £300 a day gross self-employed (so that is before tax and paying yourself to be on holiday etc.)
In 91, he suddenly found work cut by 50% and then his contract (and others on the same project) was cut short and he was turfed out. He was on the dole. He had to use all his savings to pay the mortgage.
When he got back into work many months later, he was glad to accept much less for low level work and he took a job he hated, just to earn something. Eventually, he got back to the £300 a day - but not for seven years and by that time, inflation had taken a chunk out of it.
Now, he was self-employed and you are employed with clever contracts but, today, ALL staff at ALL companies are at risk of the same crash landing. It is horrible and you have my sympathies but the UK public has decided that they want cheap air fares. Since fuel costs are rising - something else has to give. By the way, it's not just BA staff that can SOMETIMES be too superior for their own good - other mainline carriers on both sides of the Atlantic can do that too.
This recession is going to squeeze a LOT of people. Here is the experience of a friend of mine from the 90/92 recession. He was working in I.T. (still is) and on contracts. He was doing very well and getting £300 a day gross self-employed (so that is before tax and paying yourself to be on holiday etc.)
In 91, he suddenly found work cut by 50% and then his contract (and others on the same project) was cut short and he was turfed out. He was on the dole. He had to use all his savings to pay the mortgage.
When he got back into work many months later, he was glad to accept much less for low level work and he took a job he hated, just to earn something. Eventually, he got back to the £300 a day - but not for seven years and by that time, inflation had taken a chunk out of it.
Now, he was self-employed and you are employed with clever contracts but, today, ALL staff at ALL companies are at risk of the same crash landing. It is horrible and you have my sympathies but the UK public has decided that they want cheap air fares. Since fuel costs are rising - something else has to give. By the way, it's not just BA staff that can SOMETIMES be too superior for their own good - other mainline carriers on both sides of the Atlantic can do that too.
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As SLF I understand what BA are trying to do and that is fight for the survival of the airline and its business. The alternative is to lose and have no business. If there is no business there are no jobs.
Few jobs these days, come with the T & Cs enjoyed by the BA old hands. That is just a reflection of where we are. It is also a job which is not considered particularily special either. Gone are the days when someone would be in awe of an airline pilot. The same is true of doctors. We all work to live rather than live to work.
As someone who regluarily flies business class on long haul, I have stopped going BA prefering to take a European carrier to go to the far east at less than half the cost. Finnair do a great job and changing at Helsinki airport is not an issue.
Shaving a couple of hours of the trip by going direct is just not worth the cost.
Even so, I anticipate my organisations' travel costs will reduce considerably as we introduce better IT and Comms facilities and reduce the travelling to only those occasions where a personal visit will do.
The pressure on us to reduce our carbon footprint is really intense so in addition to saving costs we will also hit our CO2 targets. (We dont go in for buying offsets).
So I think things will change and strike action to protect outdated T & C will just accelerate the end of the T & Cs. If services get disrupted in protest, it will give me an excuse not to fly one I will take with pleasure.
Few jobs these days, come with the T & Cs enjoyed by the BA old hands. That is just a reflection of where we are. It is also a job which is not considered particularily special either. Gone are the days when someone would be in awe of an airline pilot. The same is true of doctors. We all work to live rather than live to work.
As someone who regluarily flies business class on long haul, I have stopped going BA prefering to take a European carrier to go to the far east at less than half the cost. Finnair do a great job and changing at Helsinki airport is not an issue.
Shaving a couple of hours of the trip by going direct is just not worth the cost.
Even so, I anticipate my organisations' travel costs will reduce considerably as we introduce better IT and Comms facilities and reduce the travelling to only those occasions where a personal visit will do.
The pressure on us to reduce our carbon footprint is really intense so in addition to saving costs we will also hit our CO2 targets. (We dont go in for buying offsets).
So I think things will change and strike action to protect outdated T & C will just accelerate the end of the T & Cs. If services get disrupted in protest, it will give me an excuse not to fly one I will take with pleasure.
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If our load factors are so bad to the 'States, perhaps someone would explain why our three 747 flights a day to LAX are sold out and BA are now thinking of adding a 777 as well. Go to the BA website and try and book on a flight.
What is very noticeable is the number of Americans who are travelling with us. Quite often around 70% or more are US passengers. As I have said before, bad luck for other carriers will mean BA picking up market share.
What is very noticeable is the number of Americans who are travelling with us. Quite often around 70% or more are US passengers. As I have said before, bad luck for other carriers will mean BA picking up market share.
I am sure that BA will act very soon and it could hurt!!
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That is the future, I won't be part of it.
Goodbye.
For others still interested in a flying career, for experienced pilots, there are jobs all over the place.
CC...forget about it.
Your time has come and gone, unless you are prepared to work for much less.
Them's the facts, like it or lump it...and for many I'm quite sure it will be the latter.
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747-436. By the way, (4)36 is the designation that BOEING gives to BA aircraft. ie 747-136, 747-236. So of course this person must be Flight Deck, pontificating from his ivory tower with the benefit of a large Captains pension no doubt of £80,000 per annum plus the AVC pot of around £250,000.
I do not fly in any capacity and probably earn less than most cabin crew!
Back to the topic....
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PiB,
You must be very tired by now, staying angry for so long, especially as it seems you've been angry since 1973...
Seriously, I'm surprised that you can't see the picture. You have kind of explained it yourself, but still refusing to believe that cutting costs has anything to do with the survival of the airline. Let me write it more clearly this time:
Oil prices go up + cost of living goes up = less money available to spend
Less money available to spend = fewer people flying
Fewer people flying = less income for the airline
Less income for the airline = job cuts
Job cuts = no work and no money
That's the score, simple as that. We unfortunately HAVE to look into cutting costs (as I've said before, within ALL departments). Colombus is still a project (unless you know something we don't) and no decicions have been made.
Please do our reputation a favour and stop posting some of the tosh that you write. Claiming we have the best crew in the world (not in those words) and that we're far superior to anyone else is not doing us any favours. It comes across as arrogant, and who wants to fly with an airline with arrogant crew? We are supposed to be friendly, professional, knowledgeable, flexible, respectful and happy. Let's just keep to that, shall we? Sometimes you have to fake it to make it, but please remember, it is not our passenger's problem, whatever is going on in our lives. They want to get from A to B safely with a smile and professional service.
Gg (still not a manager)
You must be very tired by now, staying angry for so long, especially as it seems you've been angry since 1973...
Seriously, I'm surprised that you can't see the picture. You have kind of explained it yourself, but still refusing to believe that cutting costs has anything to do with the survival of the airline. Let me write it more clearly this time:
Oil prices go up + cost of living goes up = less money available to spend
Less money available to spend = fewer people flying
Fewer people flying = less income for the airline
Less income for the airline = job cuts
Job cuts = no work and no money
That's the score, simple as that. We unfortunately HAVE to look into cutting costs (as I've said before, within ALL departments). Colombus is still a project (unless you know something we don't) and no decicions have been made.
Please do our reputation a favour and stop posting some of the tosh that you write. Claiming we have the best crew in the world (not in those words) and that we're far superior to anyone else is not doing us any favours. It comes across as arrogant, and who wants to fly with an airline with arrogant crew? We are supposed to be friendly, professional, knowledgeable, flexible, respectful and happy. Let's just keep to that, shall we? Sometimes you have to fake it to make it, but please remember, it is not our passenger's problem, whatever is going on in our lives. They want to get from A to B safely with a smile and professional service.
Gg (still not a manager)
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411A. Are you sure there are all these jobs for Flight Crew? The job is so boring these days being locked away in the cockpit with SESME breathing down your neck. Not the job it was.
the lunatic fringe
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All organisations must change to survive. If BA does not adapt and move with the very latest changes in the geopolitical and economic landscape it will not continue to trade. Managing change is the key in almost all things in life.
BA has survived. Not only has it survived it has prospered. The latest crisis is just another in a very long list.
BA has survived because it has done the very things that many people on this thread say it cannot and will not do. It is an organisation that has changed. It has adapted. And I cannot see any reason for it not to continue to adapt and change and survive.
As a pilot for BA I have seen huge changes within the organisation. Indeed the changes are so huge and fundamental that the unions are having to fight tooth and nail to try and stem the tide. The changes to my working conditions have rendered my job to be unrecognisably different from the day I joined. Suffice to say that I work harder now than at any time in a 30 year flying career. My terms and conditions bear no relation to those that PiB allude to. We have a few "A" scale pilots left. The bulk of us are on the "B" scale. ie NAPS. The newest pilot recruits are effectively on a "C" scale. A BA pilot now works flat out. We are rostered right up to the legal limits. Literally hundreds are pushing the 900 hour limit. Cabin Crew terms and conditions for new recruits have changed immeasurably. The old BOAC type terms and conditions are the stuff of history, legend, and the posters of PPRuNe. Management are doing the job. Change has been continual, and continues to be so.
Much, if not all, of the industrial unrest is as a direct result of these very changes that so many people on this thread say BA are not doing.
So to the bitter, ignorant and twisted who cannot wait for the demise of BA. You might just have to wait a little longer.
BA has survived. Not only has it survived it has prospered. The latest crisis is just another in a very long list.
BA has survived because it has done the very things that many people on this thread say it cannot and will not do. It is an organisation that has changed. It has adapted. And I cannot see any reason for it not to continue to adapt and change and survive.
As a pilot for BA I have seen huge changes within the organisation. Indeed the changes are so huge and fundamental that the unions are having to fight tooth and nail to try and stem the tide. The changes to my working conditions have rendered my job to be unrecognisably different from the day I joined. Suffice to say that I work harder now than at any time in a 30 year flying career. My terms and conditions bear no relation to those that PiB allude to. We have a few "A" scale pilots left. The bulk of us are on the "B" scale. ie NAPS. The newest pilot recruits are effectively on a "C" scale. A BA pilot now works flat out. We are rostered right up to the legal limits. Literally hundreds are pushing the 900 hour limit. Cabin Crew terms and conditions for new recruits have changed immeasurably. The old BOAC type terms and conditions are the stuff of history, legend, and the posters of PPRuNe. Management are doing the job. Change has been continual, and continues to be so.
Much, if not all, of the industrial unrest is as a direct result of these very changes that so many people on this thread say BA are not doing.
So to the bitter, ignorant and twisted who cannot wait for the demise of BA. You might just have to wait a little longer.
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Surely, the title of this thread could be equally, in some cases even more appropriately, applied to just about any airline in the world.
Times have changed, as indicated above, and the 'good old days' are over for the whole industry, not just BA.
The likes of Ryanair and easyJet have been there for some years, the rest will follow or perish. Management of all airlines naturally look to the successful competitors and will try to emulate that success. On a cost per pax mile or any other measure you care to use, the Locos are winning the fight against rising costs and milking the maximum return from the least input.
That is the way to survive in this increasingly strained and competitive times. All of us need to get used to the idea of 900 hours and minimum rest, sadly, that is the reality of modern airline operations.
Times have changed, as indicated above, and the 'good old days' are over for the whole industry, not just BA.
The likes of Ryanair and easyJet have been there for some years, the rest will follow or perish. Management of all airlines naturally look to the successful competitors and will try to emulate that success. On a cost per pax mile or any other measure you care to use, the Locos are winning the fight against rising costs and milking the maximum return from the least input.
That is the way to survive in this increasingly strained and competitive times. All of us need to get used to the idea of 900 hours and minimum rest, sadly, that is the reality of modern airline operations.
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All of us need to get used to the idea of 900 hours and minimum rest, sadly, that is the reality of modern airline operations.
The base problem is (for many older employees), when they knocked on the HR door and asked for a job, many have long forgotten that now you are actually expected to work for the salary, and that salary is not going to improve.
In fact, for many of the less skilled (and this certainly includes the CC) will simply find that their salaries will head in the opposite direction, and there is nothing they can do about it.
Except find another job.
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PiB,
Absolutely!!! Their salaries are part based on commission. Sales down = less commission = less take home pay = pay cut!!! 
My brother is Dealer Principle at a Mercedes dealership. New car sales are down by 22%. Do you think he expects everyone there to take a pay cut?
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Lovely comment in today's Times about how Willie Walsh claims to receive, sorry, receives emails, calls and comments daily from people praising T5.
Funny isn't it; I have been trying for ages to find out his email address or phone number so that I could make just such a comment.
I think I must be looking in the wrong places on the BA website; can anyone help, please? Willie says he welcomes these emails and calls, so it cannot be a secret.
The lady in Reception, by the way, has not been told what his email address or phone number is. So she couldn't pass it on, much as she wished to. Perhaps Willy should address this obvious training issue; he wouldn't want to be thought of as raising barriers against the public, would he?
Funny isn't it; I have been trying for ages to find out his email address or phone number so that I could make just such a comment.
I think I must be looking in the wrong places on the BA website; can anyone help, please? Willie says he welcomes these emails and calls, so it cannot be a secret.
The lady in Reception, by the way, has not been told what his email address or phone number is. So she couldn't pass it on, much as she wished to. Perhaps Willy should address this obvious training issue; he wouldn't want to be thought of as raising barriers against the public, would he?
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Ray, the mechanics do not sell cars
The sales people and all front line staff directly affected by the decrease in new car sales suffer a pay cut immediately from the commission element of their pay. If the dealerships car servicing or whatever arm is also suffering a decline, then the mechanics also end up with a negotiated pay cut.
I wonder how you would choose to run a hotel with an ever decreasing number of bookings?........keep everyone on the same pay they were on when you were booked solid each day?
...............anyway, we digress. Back to the topic............
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PIB, if your brother was paying his employees twice as much as a similar dealership down the road, and his costs were going up and at the same time his income from sales was dropping, then he would be a fool to just sit back and do nothing.
Before long he would be out of business and all his employees would be unemployed!
Stick you head in the sand all you want, changes will need to be made or BA will be gone and do not believe for one sec that the Government will take you over and bail you out.
Before long he would be out of business and all his employees would be unemployed!
Stick you head in the sand all you want, changes will need to be made or BA will be gone and do not believe for one sec that the Government will take you over and bail you out.
Paxing All Over The World
Pax here, who has read the entire thread.
PiB, whilst I agree with your view
as that can be said of many, MANY companies - it is the mgmt that are in charge and even if they cut mgmt salaries and posts, everyone is going to feel the pinch.
Again, I think that is true of many, MANY careers. People make a choice in their early 20s and change their mind 10/20 years later and do something else (as you appear to be about to do). Also, whilst you might not choose to be CC again, or recommend it to young people - many of them will take it now at the offered Ts&Cs and enjoy it. That is because they are in a different 'place' than you.
It is always sad to see something that was enjoyable and financially rewarding go by the board - but that is the constant experience of human kind. It may well be that you are sufficiently advanced in your career and circumstances (mortgage paid off??) that you can afford to buy a new car and choose not to take a new contract. Others are not. If your circumstances compel you to keep working, then I hope you find enjoyable work, rather than having to keep on doing something in circumstances that you no longer enjoy. I have had to do that and it eats away at you.
PiB, whilst I agree with your view
It is the management that British Airways cannot afford, not pilots and cabin crew.
Knowing what you know now, and on current Ts&C's, would you choose this career again?
It is always sad to see something that was enjoyable and financially rewarding go by the board - but that is the constant experience of human kind. It may well be that you are sufficiently advanced in your career and circumstances (mortgage paid off??) that you can afford to buy a new car and choose not to take a new contract. Others are not. If your circumstances compel you to keep working, then I hope you find enjoyable work, rather than having to keep on doing something in circumstances that you no longer enjoy. I have had to do that and it eats away at you.
Mach 3
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"The poof" seems like a reasonably intelligent, if not belligerent, individual who fails to understand that yield can be sacrificed for load factor...
You could have 2 people in each seat but if your cost per seat exceeds your revenue per seat....well King Canute springs to mind...
Your margin was, what, 10% last year?
All other things being equal, what has the fuel price done this year compared to what it was for the purposes of the books last year?
And therein lies the problem....
SLK?
How predictable.
You could have 2 people in each seat but if your cost per seat exceeds your revenue per seat....well King Canute springs to mind...
Your margin was, what, 10% last year?
All other things being equal, what has the fuel price done this year compared to what it was for the purposes of the books last year?
And therein lies the problem....
SLK?
How predictable.
Willie Walsh
Capot - try [email protected], works for everyone else in BA Mgmt. so worth a go ( if that bounces try [email protected] ) but .......... he won't reply. I wrote a real letter, and paid for a stamp from New Zealand, asking him why he is removing my Staff Travel just 'cos I'm a pensioner and he can and I can't fight back, and I got an insipid reply from a grovelling accolyte. Man's a 4 letter word beginning with C. Serving staff take note, you will retire one day too. Kick the bast..d into touch - fast.