CARDIFF
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Easy TA use the Blue spruce route just an awful lot more expensive. Oh and mind the ash cloud...........
Or you could get BD to operate it for you based on there ETOPS!
Xtypeman
Or you could get BD to operate it for you based on there ETOPS!
Xtypeman
Last edited by xtypeman; 19th May 2010 at 15:51.
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I am sure that they will be more keen than Highland were to get the aircraft off the ground during the afternoon/evening and on weekends to keep the money ticking over.
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Or you could get BD to operate it for you based on there ETOPS!
In all reality - how long is the North South service going to last, given that (a) the country is largely completely broke (b) it is a commercial black hole and (c) the new government has to make enormous cuts in public expenditure?
Very hard to justify this route whilst the axe is falling on schools, hospitals etc....
TA
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What's so special about Schools and Hospitals?
You could fill Wales from end to end with schools and hospitals and they won't add one iota to the nation's GDP.
Surely - given that 25% of kids leave school unable to read or write - we should actively consider axing quite a few. The same goes for the vastly overstaffed and inefficient NHS and its MRSA-ridden hospitals where, if you aren't ill when you go in then you sure as hell will be when you get out.
What's so wrong with building a country's infrastructure from the ground up so that it can at least begin to carry out some economic development? No Government could finance the building of a North/South Wales rail line No Government could build a North/South Wales motorway. But an air service is far cheaper - and it;s not an exclusive toffs-only, MPs only air service. It's cheap enough for anyone to use - even students. The Manx2 service sells seats for £49 - that's cheaper than the train.
So let's not knock the air service. It's a vital bridge out of the poorest county in the UK and a building block for developing the economy,
Surely - given that 25% of kids leave school unable to read or write - we should actively consider axing quite a few. The same goes for the vastly overstaffed and inefficient NHS and its MRSA-ridden hospitals where, if you aren't ill when you go in then you sure as hell will be when you get out.
What's so wrong with building a country's infrastructure from the ground up so that it can at least begin to carry out some economic development? No Government could finance the building of a North/South Wales rail line No Government could build a North/South Wales motorway. But an air service is far cheaper - and it;s not an exclusive toffs-only, MPs only air service. It's cheap enough for anyone to use - even students. The Manx2 service sells seats for £49 - that's cheaper than the train.
So let's not knock the air service. It's a vital bridge out of the poorest county in the UK and a building block for developing the economy,
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Thanks for that Korrol. Now let's put some facts in there.
In the first year of operation, a subsidy of 800,000 was paid to Highland. Additionally, a further 400,000 had to be paid to Anglesey Airport. So now we have 1.2m in public money. Against that, the airlink, according to WAG's own figures, created 1,879 new trips (so about 940 returns), of which just 23.81% were for business use (the rest were VFR, other leisure, shopping, public sector). So, for 1.2 MILLION pounds, we got 224 business trips. Call it 5,350 quid a trip. This is NOT the right way to encourage business to Wales!
Additionally, again from the WAG's own report, 'one business is considering setting up an office in N Wales as a result of the service'. Give me 1.2 Million and I'll open more than one office in N Wales!!
If WAG are serious about using air travel to build the Welsh private sector, then they get a serious thumbs up from me - but they should be looking to connect Wales to major hubs and business centres, not internally. Inward investment by definition has to come IN.
Some more gems from the report -
Which is the nub of the argument. I have worked in the airline business at a senior level for a long time now, and when I see a comment like that, my first thought is 'raise the fare'. But of course, Manx2 can't, it is set in the contract. First schoolboy error of the WAG.
By all means, have a Welsh airlink. But set the fare at a level where it is at least a little more viable, and not taking thick end of a million quid of the PBT year in, year out. It should NOT be cheaper than the train, if you want speed, pay a speed premium.
The WAG is setting themselves up as a target here. By courtesy of my job and my interests, I have spent a lot of time around politicians, in many countries, and I can tell you that Ieuan Wyn Jones is really creating a hostage to fortune here. You may argue against more spending on hospitals and schools (I partially agree with you here, it would be better to spend existing funds more effectively than pump more in), but there is a big perception issue coming up. Consider this headline, that someone, somewhere will want to write one day:
Now I know it is not a jet. I know it is not private. But in politics, perception is all, and we all know we have sloppy journos in the UK. And this could well come around to bite someone hard.
There are also significant breaches of PSO legislation inherent here. I would suggest the reason that no-one cares right now is that the route has no potential rival operator. One day this might change as well...
Claiming this route to be any sort of success is disingenuous. It will be full if the fare is too low. The analogy is rather - if I open a TV shop in Cardiff and sell 50 inch Sony flatscreens brand new for 100 quid a pop, I'll sell millions. But is this a successful business? No.
Right now, as a nation, we are going to have to watch every penny, and this route - and I am sure it is not alone - cannot justify its existence in value for money terms.
TA
In the first year of operation, a subsidy of 800,000 was paid to Highland. Additionally, a further 400,000 had to be paid to Anglesey Airport. So now we have 1.2m in public money. Against that, the airlink, according to WAG's own figures, created 1,879 new trips (so about 940 returns), of which just 23.81% were for business use (the rest were VFR, other leisure, shopping, public sector). So, for 1.2 MILLION pounds, we got 224 business trips. Call it 5,350 quid a trip. This is NOT the right way to encourage business to Wales!
Additionally, again from the WAG's own report, 'one business is considering setting up an office in N Wales as a result of the service'. Give me 1.2 Million and I'll open more than one office in N Wales!!
If WAG are serious about using air travel to build the Welsh private sector, then they get a serious thumbs up from me - but they should be looking to connect Wales to major hubs and business centres, not internally. Inward investment by definition has to come IN.
Some more gems from the report -
Demand is exceeding supply at the maximum fare
Over half the passengers would be content to see fares of more than fifty pounds one way
By all means, have a Welsh airlink. But set the fare at a level where it is at least a little more viable, and not taking thick end of a million quid of the PBT year in, year out. It should NOT be cheaper than the train, if you want speed, pay a speed premium.
The WAG is setting themselves up as a target here. By courtesy of my job and my interests, I have spent a lot of time around politicians, in many countries, and I can tell you that Ieuan Wyn Jones is really creating a hostage to fortune here. You may argue against more spending on hospitals and schools (I partially agree with you here, it would be better to spend existing funds more effectively than pump more in), but there is a big perception issue coming up. Consider this headline, that someone, somewhere will want to write one day:
"Pensioner Dies While her AM Jets to Cardiff on a Jolly"
This is Mrs Ida Oldlady. She died yesterday, aged 76, in a North Wales hospital, because staff cuts meant no-one was watching her. Her local AM, Ieuan Wyn Jones, Leader of PC, spent the day commuting to work in his private jet, paid for by the taxpayer, and was unavailable for comment
This is Mrs Ida Oldlady. She died yesterday, aged 76, in a North Wales hospital, because staff cuts meant no-one was watching her. Her local AM, Ieuan Wyn Jones, Leader of PC, spent the day commuting to work in his private jet, paid for by the taxpayer, and was unavailable for comment
There are also significant breaches of PSO legislation inherent here. I would suggest the reason that no-one cares right now is that the route has no potential rival operator. One day this might change as well...
Claiming this route to be any sort of success is disingenuous. It will be full if the fare is too low. The analogy is rather - if I open a TV shop in Cardiff and sell 50 inch Sony flatscreens brand new for 100 quid a pop, I'll sell millions. But is this a successful business? No.
Right now, as a nation, we are going to have to watch every penny, and this route - and I am sure it is not alone - cannot justify its existence in value for money terms.
TA
Last edited by TwinAisle; 20th May 2010 at 12:18.
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BCN_BOY
So Scotland is allowed to have lots of these PSO routes which are all funded by the taxpayer, yet nobody complains, Wales has one and the world falls apart? We need to keep the nation connected and unfortunately if this route is necessary until other forms of transport are more viable then so be it. The route to the north is a long one by road or rail. Air is the best option at present for anybody in business and that includes government, whether you agree or not. There are many countries in Europe that have these PSO routes and they are deemed a necessity. We have one in place to connect our country and we want to get rid of it. With a mentality like that Wales will forever be a back water.
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No, Bcn_boy, read what I wrote. By all means have it, but accept the fact that the fares have been set wrongly, the subsidy is too high, on independent evidence it does not offer good value for money, and the WAG may well find themselves in very hot political water, as the spending cuts that are in the post start to hit the services that the majority of the electorate care about.
This route is NOT a true PSO. It has been misused. European law refers, and if I had time and inclination I would dig the appropriate chunk out of Eurolex. The Scottish PSOs are in the main correct use of PSO, this Welsh route is not.
TA
This route is NOT a true PSO. It has been misused. European law refers, and if I had time and inclination I would dig the appropriate chunk out of Eurolex. The Scottish PSOs are in the main correct use of PSO, this Welsh route is not.
TA
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Winter 2011
MON
06:10 Amsterdam KLM
06:45 Edinburgh WW
07:00 Sharm El Sheikh TOM
07:00 Munich WW
07:25 Gran Canaria TOM
07:30 Ynys Mon NM
08:20 Dublin RE
08:35 Newcastle T3
08:45 Glasgow BE
08:55 Edinburgh BE
09:00 Gran Canaria TCX
11:35 Amsterdam KLM
11:55 Cork RE
11:55 Belfast City BE
15:10 Dublin RE
15:30 Newcastle BE
15:55 Paris CDG BE
16:15 Ynys Mon NM
16:50 Amsterdam KLM
16:55 Edinburgh WW
17:00 Belfast Intl WW
18:45 Newcastle T3
20:00 Glasgow BE
20:45 Dublin RE
TUES
06:10 Amsterdam KLM
06:45 Edinburgh WW
07:00 Alicante TOM
07:30 Ynys Mon NM
08:45 Glasgow BE
08:00 Alicante WW
08:20 Dublin RE
08:35 Newcastle T3
08:55 Edinburgh BE
10:20 Malaga WW
11:35 Amsterdam KLM
11:55 Cork RE
11:55 Jersey BE
14:15 Jersey WW
14:35 Tenerife South TOM
14:50 Belfast City BE
15:10 Dublin RE
15:55 Paris CDG BE
16:15 Ynys Mon NM
16:50 Amsterdam KLM
16:55 Edinburgh WW
17:00 Belfast Intl WW
18:45 Newcastle T3
19:55 Edinburgh BE
20:00 Glasgow BE
20:45 Dublin RE
WED
06:10 Amsterdam KLM
06:45 Edinburgh WW
07:00 Munich WW
07:30 Ynys Mon NM
08:20 Dublin RE
08:35 Newcastle T3
08:55 Edinburgh BE
11:35 Amsterdam KLM
11:25 Sharm El Shiekh TOM
11:55 Belfast City BE
11:55 Cork RE
15:10 Dublin RE
15:55 Paris CDG BE
16:15 Ynys Mon NM
16:50 Amsterdam KLM
16:55 Edinburgh WW
17:00 Belfast Intl WW
18:45 Newcastle T3
19:55 Edinburgh BE
20:00 Glasgow BE
20:45 Dublin RE
THUR
06:10 Amsterdam KLM
06:45 Edinburgh WW
07:30 Ynys Mon NM
08:20 Dublin RE
08:35 Newcastle T3
08:40 Lanzarote TCX
08:45 Glasgow BE
08:55 Edinburgh BE
11:25 Sharm El Sheikh TOM
11:35 Amsterdam KLM
11:55 Cork RE
11:55 Jersey BE
13:35 Edinburgh BE
14:50 Belfast City BE
15:10 Dublin RE
15:55 Paris CDG BE
16:15 Ynys Mon NM
16:50 Amsterdam KLM
16:55 Edinburgh WW
17:00 Belfast Intl WW
18:45 Newcastle T3
19:55 Edinburgh BE
20:00 Glasgow BE
20:45 Dublin RE
FRI
06:10 Amsterdam KLM
06:45 Edinburgh WW
07:00 Munich WW
07:30 Ynys Mon NM
08:20 Dublin RE
08:35 Newcastle T3
08:40 Belfast City BE
08:45 Glasgow BE
08:55 Edinburgh BE
10:20 Malaga WW
10:30 Tenerife South TOM
10:30 Tenerife South TCX
11:10 Newcastle BE
11:35 Amsterdam KLM
11:55 Cork RE
14:50 Belfast City BE
15:10 Dublin RE
15:15 Ynys Mon NM
15:55 Paris CDG BE
16:50 Amsterdam KLM
16:55 Edinburgh WW
17:00 Belfast Intl WW
18:45 Newcastle T3
19:55 Edinburgh BE
20:00 Glasgow BE
20:45 Dublin RE
SAT
06:10 Amsterdam KLM
06:40 Alicante TOM
07:00 Malaga WW
08:00 Jersey WW
08:10 Fuerteventura TCX
08:20 Dublin RE
08:55 Paris CDG BE
09:35 Edinburgh BE
10:45 Geneva WW
10:45 Faro WW
11:35 Amsterdam KLM
11:55 Cork RE
13:00 Glasgow BE
13:30 Alicante WW
15:50 Dublin RE
16:50 Amsterdam KLM
20:45 Dublin RE
SUN
06:10 Amsterdam KLM
07:25 Malaga TOM
08:10 Malaga WW
08:20 Dublin RE
09:00 Tenerife South TOM
11:35 Amsterdam KLM
11:50 Alicante WW
11:55 Cork RE
13:20 Newcastle BE
13:25 Geneva WW
13:35 Jersey BE
14:35 Belfast Intl WW
15:10 Dublin RE
15:10 Lanzarote TOM
15:55 Paris CDG BE
16:50 Amsterdam KLM
16:45 Edinburgh BE
17:50 Munich WW
18:10 Edinburgh WW
19:55 Edinburgh BE
20:00 Glasgow BE
20:45 Dublin RE
Alicante – 5 fpw
Belfast- 13 fpw (both)
Cork – 7 fpw
Dublin- 18 fpw
Edinburgh- 25 fpw
Glasgow- 11 fpw
Paris – 7 fpw
Faro- 1 fpw
Jersey- 5 fpw
Munich- 4 fpw
Malaga – 5 fpw
Newcastle- 13 fpw
Geneva- 2 fpw
Gran Canaria – 2 fpw
Ynys Mon – 10 fpw
Lanzarote- 2 fpw
Sharm El Sheikh -3 fpw
Tenerife – 4fpw
BE- 43 fpw
WW- 34 fpw
RE- 27 fpw
KLM- 21 fpw
TOM- 11 fpw
NM- 10 fpw
T3 – 10 fpw
TCX- 4 fpw
160 fpw
Total 23 flights per day on average
This is for the quietest time of the winter period for the week beginning 10th January.
Doesn’t include full TOM and TCX, if anyone can help with these it would be great.
06:10 Amsterdam KLM
06:45 Edinburgh WW
07:00 Sharm El Sheikh TOM
07:00 Munich WW
07:25 Gran Canaria TOM
07:30 Ynys Mon NM
08:20 Dublin RE
08:35 Newcastle T3
08:45 Glasgow BE
08:55 Edinburgh BE
09:00 Gran Canaria TCX
11:35 Amsterdam KLM
11:55 Cork RE
11:55 Belfast City BE
15:10 Dublin RE
15:30 Newcastle BE
15:55 Paris CDG BE
16:15 Ynys Mon NM
16:50 Amsterdam KLM
16:55 Edinburgh WW
17:00 Belfast Intl WW
18:45 Newcastle T3
20:00 Glasgow BE
20:45 Dublin RE
TUES
06:10 Amsterdam KLM
06:45 Edinburgh WW
07:00 Alicante TOM
07:30 Ynys Mon NM
08:45 Glasgow BE
08:00 Alicante WW
08:20 Dublin RE
08:35 Newcastle T3
08:55 Edinburgh BE
10:20 Malaga WW
11:35 Amsterdam KLM
11:55 Cork RE
11:55 Jersey BE
14:15 Jersey WW
14:35 Tenerife South TOM
14:50 Belfast City BE
15:10 Dublin RE
15:55 Paris CDG BE
16:15 Ynys Mon NM
16:50 Amsterdam KLM
16:55 Edinburgh WW
17:00 Belfast Intl WW
18:45 Newcastle T3
19:55 Edinburgh BE
20:00 Glasgow BE
20:45 Dublin RE
WED
06:10 Amsterdam KLM
06:45 Edinburgh WW
07:00 Munich WW
07:30 Ynys Mon NM
08:20 Dublin RE
08:35 Newcastle T3
08:55 Edinburgh BE
11:35 Amsterdam KLM
11:25 Sharm El Shiekh TOM
11:55 Belfast City BE
11:55 Cork RE
15:10 Dublin RE
15:55 Paris CDG BE
16:15 Ynys Mon NM
16:50 Amsterdam KLM
16:55 Edinburgh WW
17:00 Belfast Intl WW
18:45 Newcastle T3
19:55 Edinburgh BE
20:00 Glasgow BE
20:45 Dublin RE
THUR
06:10 Amsterdam KLM
06:45 Edinburgh WW
07:30 Ynys Mon NM
08:20 Dublin RE
08:35 Newcastle T3
08:40 Lanzarote TCX
08:45 Glasgow BE
08:55 Edinburgh BE
11:25 Sharm El Sheikh TOM
11:35 Amsterdam KLM
11:55 Cork RE
11:55 Jersey BE
13:35 Edinburgh BE
14:50 Belfast City BE
15:10 Dublin RE
15:55 Paris CDG BE
16:15 Ynys Mon NM
16:50 Amsterdam KLM
16:55 Edinburgh WW
17:00 Belfast Intl WW
18:45 Newcastle T3
19:55 Edinburgh BE
20:00 Glasgow BE
20:45 Dublin RE
FRI
06:10 Amsterdam KLM
06:45 Edinburgh WW
07:00 Munich WW
07:30 Ynys Mon NM
08:20 Dublin RE
08:35 Newcastle T3
08:40 Belfast City BE
08:45 Glasgow BE
08:55 Edinburgh BE
10:20 Malaga WW
10:30 Tenerife South TOM
10:30 Tenerife South TCX
11:10 Newcastle BE
11:35 Amsterdam KLM
11:55 Cork RE
14:50 Belfast City BE
15:10 Dublin RE
15:15 Ynys Mon NM
15:55 Paris CDG BE
16:50 Amsterdam KLM
16:55 Edinburgh WW
17:00 Belfast Intl WW
18:45 Newcastle T3
19:55 Edinburgh BE
20:00 Glasgow BE
20:45 Dublin RE
SAT
06:10 Amsterdam KLM
06:40 Alicante TOM
07:00 Malaga WW
08:00 Jersey WW
08:10 Fuerteventura TCX
08:20 Dublin RE
08:55 Paris CDG BE
09:35 Edinburgh BE
10:45 Geneva WW
10:45 Faro WW
11:35 Amsterdam KLM
11:55 Cork RE
13:00 Glasgow BE
13:30 Alicante WW
15:50 Dublin RE
16:50 Amsterdam KLM
20:45 Dublin RE
SUN
06:10 Amsterdam KLM
07:25 Malaga TOM
08:10 Malaga WW
08:20 Dublin RE
09:00 Tenerife South TOM
11:35 Amsterdam KLM
11:50 Alicante WW
11:55 Cork RE
13:20 Newcastle BE
13:25 Geneva WW
13:35 Jersey BE
14:35 Belfast Intl WW
15:10 Dublin RE
15:10 Lanzarote TOM
15:55 Paris CDG BE
16:50 Amsterdam KLM
16:45 Edinburgh BE
17:50 Munich WW
18:10 Edinburgh WW
19:55 Edinburgh BE
20:00 Glasgow BE
20:45 Dublin RE
Alicante – 5 fpw
Belfast- 13 fpw (both)
Cork – 7 fpw
Dublin- 18 fpw
Edinburgh- 25 fpw
Glasgow- 11 fpw
Paris – 7 fpw
Faro- 1 fpw
Jersey- 5 fpw
Munich- 4 fpw
Malaga – 5 fpw
Newcastle- 13 fpw
Geneva- 2 fpw
Gran Canaria – 2 fpw
Ynys Mon – 10 fpw
Lanzarote- 2 fpw
Sharm El Sheikh -3 fpw
Tenerife – 4fpw
BE- 43 fpw
WW- 34 fpw
RE- 27 fpw
KLM- 21 fpw
TOM- 11 fpw
NM- 10 fpw
T3 – 10 fpw
TCX- 4 fpw
160 fpw
Total 23 flights per day on average
This is for the quietest time of the winter period for the week beginning 10th January.
Doesn’t include full TOM and TCX, if anyone can help with these it would be great.
Thread Starter
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The CWL-DLM-CWL also delayed almost 16 hours (I was on it coming back) due to the ACE-CWL diverting to LIS. Replacement aircraft for CWL-DLM-CWL went tech leaving crew short of hours.
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Still talk of a Emirates operating flights from Cardiff. See today’s news article :-
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2010/06/03/cardiff-airport-identifies-a-wealthy-new-tourist-trade-91466-26576596/
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2010/06/03/cardiff-airport-identifies-a-wealthy-new-tourist-trade-91466-26576596/
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Diversions early morning of 5/6/10
What was the reasons for both the TCX and TOM diversions earlier this morning? If it was mist/fog- how bad does it have to be at CWL to cause diversions?
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Cardiff has CAT 1 ILS which in met tuerms = 550 metres visual range RVR and 200ft decision height. When i checked the met this morning RVR was reporting as 250 metres thereby being below limits.