Aer Lingus - 4
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Way too much on the list
Disagee with some
- Forget the airbridges. Comfort yes, essential no
- Forget Cat III, too costly for the rare occasions a diversion is needed
- Use the remote stands,
- Close the air club - lots of space, trivial income if airport develops
- open the old terminal for charter and low cost travel
- lower costs and increase volume
- lower cost dramatically and increase volume dramatically
- Talk to the appropiate operators i.e American, Continental, Air Canada who have aircraft that can fly ETOPS
Rebel PPRuNer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 51
Posts: 2,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TTT
I'm sure a smart cookie like McManus will have noted Jetmagic's failure - and even they never tried to pony up the $$$$$ for an LHR slot. [Actually LHR slots can be had but not at times of day convenient for business travel] He may also know the old saw that to make a small fortune in the airline business start with a large one. As for Michael Noonan - has he ever even met Willie Walsh? Willie Walsh got BA by making huge, unpopular cutbacks, not propping up uneconomic routes.
I'm sure a smart cookie like McManus will have noted Jetmagic's failure - and even they never tried to pony up the $$$$$ for an LHR slot. [Actually LHR slots can be had but not at times of day convenient for business travel] He may also know the old saw that to make a small fortune in the airline business start with a large one. As for Michael Noonan - has he ever even met Willie Walsh? Willie Walsh got BA by making huge, unpopular cutbacks, not propping up uneconomic routes.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I fully agree with you, Asianfly. Cork needs to be able to walk before it can run, and run before it can fly. It is embarassing to see 30 odd European destinations out of SNN and only something like 10 out of Cork.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 1,625
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not a bad idea, snn-cdg. Air France have everything from ERJ-135/145, Fokker 70/100, A318/9 to play around with for such a route. Might have a niche there all right.
The story has been all over the media again this morning with big chunks on the topic on the Morning Ireland radio show. The Mayor of Shannon had even the suggestion to take a LHR flight from Cork for snn's sake forgetting the fact that Cork will be down from five flights to four to Heathrow next summer. Also apperances from a local FF and Labour backbencher.
Cork politicians take note and learn from these guys.
The story has been all over the media again this morning with big chunks on the topic on the Morning Ireland radio show. The Mayor of Shannon had even the suggestion to take a LHR flight from Cork for snn's sake forgetting the fact that Cork will be down from five flights to four to Heathrow next summer. Also apperances from a local FF and Labour backbencher.
Cork politicians take note and learn from these guys.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Edinburgh
Age: 44
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air France @ SNN
Surely if Air France were to come on the scene at SNN it would be in the form of Air France's own Irish subsidiary - Cityjet
In which case the aircraft would be either the 146 or an RJ85 which would probably be an excellent a/c for a twice daily business service.
What are the slots like at CDG though?
In which case the aircraft would be either the 146 or an RJ85 which would probably be an excellent a/c for a twice daily business service.
What are the slots like at CDG though?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cork
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Livinginthepast,
1) Airbridges are essential in the New terminal, though not necessary in an opened Old Terminal. In most sensible airports, arrivals are on the ground floor and don't force people to climb 3 flights of stairs to get to arrivals. The Old terminal is fine on that score.
2) Re Cat III, if Cork had any pretensions towards t/a flights, this is a must. Within a European context it is less necessary.
1) Airbridges are essential in the New terminal, though not necessary in an opened Old Terminal. In most sensible airports, arrivals are on the ground floor and don't force people to climb 3 flights of stairs to get to arrivals. The Old terminal is fine on that score.
2) Re Cat III, if Cork had any pretensions towards t/a flights, this is a must. Within a European context it is less necessary.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ireland nowadays
Posts: 1,440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Moving back to the mundane, July pax figures:
Passengers: 919,000 +10.5%
Load Factor: 81.6% -2.3%
Short Haul Load Factor: 82.2% +1.2%
Long Haul Load Factor: 80.8% -6.7%
First Six Months:
Passengers: 5.3 million +6.7%
Load Factor: 76.4% -1.8%
The fall in long haul load factor was probably inevitable considering the new aircraft coming on stream.
As an aside, is there any chance that the Shannon and Cork specific discussions can be kept to the threads for those airports?
Passengers: 919,000 +10.5%
Load Factor: 81.6% -2.3%
Short Haul Load Factor: 82.2% +1.2%
Long Haul Load Factor: 80.8% -6.7%
First Six Months:
Passengers: 5.3 million +6.7%
Load Factor: 76.4% -1.8%
The fall in long haul load factor was probably inevitable considering the new aircraft coming on stream.
As an aside, is there any chance that the Shannon and Cork specific discussions can be kept to the threads for those airports?
PPRuNe Engineering Dept Apprentice
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Deep in the boglands of Western Ireland
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
there is no route to LHR for the entire west coast, a route which by all accounts was doing very well. People will not travel to ORK as it is a nightmare of a place and is very much a last resort for anyone from the West coast
For westerners, DUB should be treated as being at capacity until both the M50 upgrade and T2 gets on stream. That's not going to happen while both Cork and Shannon are owned by Dublin Airport Authority.
This is slightly off-topic, a different debate even, but if the airports were seperated up, with each airport answerable only to local government authorities, then maybe there wouldn't be a problem attracting flights to one or the other. Each airport would only have local government to blame, and a more realistic demographic of flights (I.E. Everyone uses their local airport) would ensue. No part of the country would prop up the other.
(I dunno about my logic today, but I'm suffering with a headcold so forgive me)
Another suggestion for the development of SNN, and this one just takes it way off thread topic, off forum topic, and out of "Misc. Forums"........
Two Words: Aircraft Manufacture.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dublin, IE
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Livinginthepast
Forget Cat III, too costly for the rare occasions a diversion is needed
Cork needs proper CAT II, which it still hasn't got because of that joke of a runway it has. Autolands are not possible at present, with Airbus anyway, not sure about 737's etc.
The priority for Cork is a new (flat) runway. One that faces the right direction for the prevailing wind for starters. It also needs to be lengthened substantially if Cork is serious about getting T/A flights.
Oh and CAT III is a must for the days the airport is shrouded in cloud on top of that hill they decided to build it on.
Personally, I think the current airport is a lost cause and a new airport in a new green field site is needed in Cork, but will anyone be brave enough to do it?
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: A Paddy in Paris
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm hearing rumours of possibilities of strike action over terms and conditions for new staff at Belfast - no transfers, all new hires, and no unions - seems to have ruffled some feathers. Anyone else have anything on this?
I can't help but think that DM has more on his plate than he bargained for.
I can't help but think that DM has more on his plate than he bargained for.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having never been through Cork, I can't comment whether it's a "nightmare" or not, but it is not a viable option for me to use as I would have to go to Limerick first.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is ample space in the new terminal at Cork. It cannot afford to have two terminals as Aerlingus. Aer Arann and the 6 low cost airlines would opt for the low cost terminal leaving just Malev and Charter operators using the new terminal.
CAA plan to knock the old terminal as part of its business plan. Talk in the media this morning that archiac SNN-LHR was not just about load factors and yield but that the legendary work practices at SNN also played a part in the decision as they added hugely to cost of operating the service.
CAA plan to knock the old terminal as part of its business plan. Talk in the media this morning that archiac SNN-LHR was not just about load factors and yield but that the legendary work practices at SNN also played a part in the decision as they added hugely to cost of operating the service.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: ireland
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
an open letter to tom the tenor
tom,
i have been reading your posts on this site for many years. i have normally found them interesting, informative, and sometimes witty. they have always had a cork slant, but that was often part of the charm.
however, the tirades and vitriol emanating from your posts recently are very disappointing. gloating over job losses really is a very low blow
this is not just a shannon thing. i dont intend to go into the ins and outs of the ei announcement. the reality is this: ei are definately going to open an eastern european base in the not too distant future; this new base will serve heathrow. where do you think the slots for that are going to come from?
this shannon situation should have everyone looking over their shoulder.
with regard to ei the pertinent question would appear to be "who's next?"
DM has shown that profitability is no guarantee of sustainability.
i prerfered you when you were just a bit of a moaner. that was when you had posts that people would read, and take you seriously....well most of the time
.
just my sixpence worth
i have been reading your posts on this site for many years. i have normally found them interesting, informative, and sometimes witty. they have always had a cork slant, but that was often part of the charm.
however, the tirades and vitriol emanating from your posts recently are very disappointing. gloating over job losses really is a very low blow
this is not just a shannon thing. i dont intend to go into the ins and outs of the ei announcement. the reality is this: ei are definately going to open an eastern european base in the not too distant future; this new base will serve heathrow. where do you think the slots for that are going to come from?
this shannon situation should have everyone looking over their shoulder.
with regard to ei the pertinent question would appear to be "who's next?"
DM has shown that profitability is no guarantee of sustainability.
i prerfered you when you were just a bit of a moaner. that was when you had posts that people would read, and take you seriously....well most of the time
.just my sixpence worth
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 1,625
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am in no way gloating over anyone being lined up to lose their job. EI wanting to quit snn is the last thing I would have imagined happening. Whether there is one, two, three or 10 daily flights from snn to lhr it is of very little interest to me. Yes, I do believe the significant political clout that has surrounded snn for decades and is again so evident today has been of major harm to Cork Airport which has up to recent years been so left behind by the state empire that has controlled both the likes of EI and Aer Rianta.
You can keep your ol' spin - I have no wish to see any EI types lose their livelihoods - after all somebody will have to be there when yet another flight has to divert from Cork!
My family and I have had that displeasure three times in the last year or so.
You can keep your ol' spin - I have no wish to see any EI types lose their livelihoods - after all somebody will have to be there when yet another flight has to divert from Cork!
My family and I have had that displeasure three times in the last year or so.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A commenator made the point that load factors and yields on SNN-LHR are only part of the picture.
The cost of operating a two shift operation at Shannon compared to a new low cost venture at Belfast must also be taken into account.
I'm also informed that the radical changes in work practices that have taken place in Dublin and Cork have not been implemented to the same extent in Shannon and that this may have been a factor in the decision.
The extremely genorous concessions given to Ryanair and the subsequent flooding of the Shannon market with 1 cent seats must also have driven fares down on Heathrow. No less than 5 airlines together with weekly German and Dutch charter flights have left since.
I agree that slots on ORK LHR or even DUB LHR are no longer cast in stone. Maybe we need to think outside of the LHR box. It's reputation as a transit airport leaves a lot to be desired.
Finally fresh rumours of EI operating ORK/BFS/JFK have surfaced. I'm sure all those interest groups looking for balanced regional development in the media this week will be delighted if the rumours are true.
The cost of operating a two shift operation at Shannon compared to a new low cost venture at Belfast must also be taken into account.
I'm also informed that the radical changes in work practices that have taken place in Dublin and Cork have not been implemented to the same extent in Shannon and that this may have been a factor in the decision.
The extremely genorous concessions given to Ryanair and the subsequent flooding of the Shannon market with 1 cent seats must also have driven fares down on Heathrow. No less than 5 airlines together with weekly German and Dutch charter flights have left since.
I agree that slots on ORK LHR or even DUB LHR are no longer cast in stone. Maybe we need to think outside of the LHR box. It's reputation as a transit airport leaves a lot to be desired.
Finally fresh rumours of EI operating ORK/BFS/JFK have surfaced. I'm sure all those interest groups looking for balanced regional development in the media this week will be delighted if the rumours are true.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ireland
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a quick post to clarify a point I tried to make yesterday about operating transatlantic from Cork:
A couple of people pointed out that A330’s can and do operate out of Cork (e.g. on charter routes etc). An A330 can only operate out of Cork if the Take Off Weight is limited to enable the aircraft to take off from the available (shortish) runway. The take off weight is limited by carrying less fuel, less cargo or fewer passengers. Limiting take off weight is easy when flying short haul or charter because; (1) It’s a relatively short flight so you don’t need full fuel tanks and (2) Charter operators rarely/never carry cargo.
Most airlines operating transatlantic services earn significant revenue from transporting cargo (this is particularly true for Aer Lingus). If Aer Lingus were to transfer a transatlantic service using an A330 from Dublin or Shannon to Cork they would definitely reduce their potential to earn revenue from cargo. If the performance penalty is severe enough the aircraft may even be unable to operate with a full load of passengers (I’m not a performance engineer so I don’t know how bad the penalty is/would be). This compromise does however mean that the potential to earn revenue from operating an A330 out of Cork is significantly less than out of Shannon, Dublin or elsewhere. Consequentially the commercial argument for starting a transatlantic service out Cork is weakened by the length of its runway.
I’ve also been informed that the largest aircraft that can operate un-restricted out of Cork is a B767-200 rather than a B757 (thanks 840), but the general thrust of the argument remains.
I would agree with many other posters by saying that Corks future is likely to lie with continued development of European routes. I would also agree that people can be fixated on the prestiege of an airport having transatlantic route when short haul developement is almost always certainly more sustainable and important.
Anyhow time to return to something a little more “on topic”.
About two months ago I heard a rumour that Aer Lingus were considering how they could use their Heathrow slots more advantageously in the new open skies era (long before the current Shannon - Heathrow debacle). One option considered was to start operating from Heathrow to JFK.
An A330 would fly DUB - LHR - JFK - LHR - DUB. The beauty of this would be that since an A330 flying Dublin to London would carry a similar number of passengers as 2 A320's, one DUB-LHR-DUB rotation could be dropped to free up the required Heathrow slots but with minimal reduction in overall DUB-LHR-DUB capacity! Not fully sure if the current Aer Lingus transatlantic product would stack up against the competition (BA, Virgin etc) but it would certainly be a very clever use of slots and aircraft. I haven’t heard anything more about this rumour since though.
A couple of people pointed out that A330’s can and do operate out of Cork (e.g. on charter routes etc). An A330 can only operate out of Cork if the Take Off Weight is limited to enable the aircraft to take off from the available (shortish) runway. The take off weight is limited by carrying less fuel, less cargo or fewer passengers. Limiting take off weight is easy when flying short haul or charter because; (1) It’s a relatively short flight so you don’t need full fuel tanks and (2) Charter operators rarely/never carry cargo.
Most airlines operating transatlantic services earn significant revenue from transporting cargo (this is particularly true for Aer Lingus). If Aer Lingus were to transfer a transatlantic service using an A330 from Dublin or Shannon to Cork they would definitely reduce their potential to earn revenue from cargo. If the performance penalty is severe enough the aircraft may even be unable to operate with a full load of passengers (I’m not a performance engineer so I don’t know how bad the penalty is/would be). This compromise does however mean that the potential to earn revenue from operating an A330 out of Cork is significantly less than out of Shannon, Dublin or elsewhere. Consequentially the commercial argument for starting a transatlantic service out Cork is weakened by the length of its runway.
I’ve also been informed that the largest aircraft that can operate un-restricted out of Cork is a B767-200 rather than a B757 (thanks 840), but the general thrust of the argument remains.
I would agree with many other posters by saying that Corks future is likely to lie with continued development of European routes. I would also agree that people can be fixated on the prestiege of an airport having transatlantic route when short haul developement is almost always certainly more sustainable and important.
Anyhow time to return to something a little more “on topic”.
About two months ago I heard a rumour that Aer Lingus were considering how they could use their Heathrow slots more advantageously in the new open skies era (long before the current Shannon - Heathrow debacle). One option considered was to start operating from Heathrow to JFK.
An A330 would fly DUB - LHR - JFK - LHR - DUB. The beauty of this would be that since an A330 flying Dublin to London would carry a similar number of passengers as 2 A320's, one DUB-LHR-DUB rotation could be dropped to free up the required Heathrow slots but with minimal reduction in overall DUB-LHR-DUB capacity! Not fully sure if the current Aer Lingus transatlantic product would stack up against the competition (BA, Virgin etc) but it would certainly be a very clever use of slots and aircraft. I haven’t heard anything more about this rumour since though.