MANCHESTER - 5
I remember years ago when the Rt Hon David Owen campaigned to keep the link between Plymouth and London alive when Brymon wanted to shut the route down due to unprofitability. He got his way, and I believe the link is still going to this day but with Air Southwest.
Perhaps we need an MP of sorts to campaign to keep the flag flying for the MAN - JFK route.
I sometimes feel the 'British' has gone out of aviation these days and as a nation Britain has nothing to offer the industry. Its all down to CO to represent the regional airports these days.
Perhaps we need an MP of sorts to campaign to keep the flag flying for the MAN - JFK route.
I sometimes feel the 'British' has gone out of aviation these days and as a nation Britain has nothing to offer the industry. Its all down to CO to represent the regional airports these days.
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BA dumps MAN - JFK
It's hardly a surprise as the route has looked anomalous ever since the BACON sale.
The BA preferred business model has long been everything via LON.
Hence the BACON deal and now this.
But the flaw in their thinking is that whenever problems arise at LHR or LGW, the BA UK domestic connections are among the first to be dumped.
So as a punter based in the regions you can't help thinking - why on earth would I want to go via the hell-holes of LHR/LGW and all the uncertainty over whether I'll make the connection, and will my baggage make it ?
ATC delays often erode connection timescales, and with the added unease that if anything sneezes down South, bang goes the connecting flight anyway.
Applying that logic, AMS, BRU, CPH and FRA look a much better bet.
Looking at my travels over the last 2 - 3 years - both Co and personal, always starting from MAN, I guess < 5% have been with BA via LON. On the other hand, KL, SN, LH, SK, LX, US, CO, even AF have done well out of my travels.
There's a window of opportunity here for BD and Star Alliance if they go for it
The BA preferred business model has long been everything via LON.
Hence the BACON deal and now this.
But the flaw in their thinking is that whenever problems arise at LHR or LGW, the BA UK domestic connections are among the first to be dumped.
So as a punter based in the regions you can't help thinking - why on earth would I want to go via the hell-holes of LHR/LGW and all the uncertainty over whether I'll make the connection, and will my baggage make it ?
ATC delays often erode connection timescales, and with the added unease that if anything sneezes down South, bang goes the connecting flight anyway.
Applying that logic, AMS, BRU, CPH and FRA look a much better bet.
Looking at my travels over the last 2 - 3 years - both Co and personal, always starting from MAN, I guess < 5% have been with BA via LON. On the other hand, KL, SN, LH, SK, LX, US, CO, even AF have done well out of my travels.
There's a window of opportunity here for BD and Star Alliance if they go for it
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Man T3
The T3 Check In is unrecognisable, from the 'glory days' in the the late 1990's. Then, what are now called Zones 1 & 2 were all BA, around 25-30 desks used by BA/AA. Yesterday, BMI / Baby used all of Zone 2, flybe and EZY, most of Zone 1, and BA shoved in the far corner with just 4 desks for their flights to London. It's the future.
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BA COULDN'T MAKE MONEY on their regional operations. SIMPLE AS THAT.
BRAL could, Brymon could, Loganair could, however due to the higher overheads of mainline BA, the flag carrier can't. So why the moan? Can you still fly from MAN-JFK? Yes.
BA is a business, they can make more with the B767 from LHR. The future of Manchester is LOCO.
BRAL could, Brymon could, Loganair could, however due to the higher overheads of mainline BA, the flag carrier can't. So why the moan? Can you still fly from MAN-JFK? Yes.
BA is a business, they can make more with the B767 from LHR. The future of Manchester is LOCO.
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Oh please Manchester lance this NOW !!!
Take the initiative here and kick them out early at a time of your choosing NOT BA.........what have you got to lose !
Blame slots, gate restrictions, runway capacity but for goodnes-sake make life hell for them.
It hasn't been done before and would generate headline news and at least give the locals an opportunity to mouth off about London Airways at it would inevitably generate headline news.
If BA want a 767 no problem, they can have it now 6 months early !
.....shame on the pre booked pax but oh how I would pay to see that !!!!!!!!!!
Sweet retribution for 30 years of shabby service,broken promises and as some of us recall multiple objections to every long haul airline that applied to serve Manchester in the 60s 70s and 80s.....stick that up your jet pipe Willie.
Take the initiative here and kick them out early at a time of your choosing NOT BA.........what have you got to lose !
Blame slots, gate restrictions, runway capacity but for goodnes-sake make life hell for them.
It hasn't been done before and would generate headline news and at least give the locals an opportunity to mouth off about London Airways at it would inevitably generate headline news.
If BA want a 767 no problem, they can have it now 6 months early !
.....shame on the pre booked pax but oh how I would pay to see that !!!!!!!!!!
Sweet retribution for 30 years of shabby service,broken promises and as some of us recall multiple objections to every long haul airline that applied to serve Manchester in the 60s 70s and 80s.....stick that up your jet pipe Willie.
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Umpteen friends of mine who booked MAN-JKF were offered "very good deals" to fly from LHR...why?????
As an aside..many moons ago, BOAC were quoted as saying "Manchester will never sustain a daily Trans Atlantic Service"
bb
As an aside..many moons ago, BOAC were quoted as saying "Manchester will never sustain a daily Trans Atlantic Service"
bb
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Bye Bye BA
Happy to be corrected by Industry insiders, but I recall stories in the past that BA encouraged travel companies to siphon business travellers via LHR. This was done through payment of a higher commission than if the pax were booked onto BA's MAN originating routes with a subsequent transfer to the ultimate destination.
So with artifically reduced Business flyer loads on MAN based routes, the figures showed that the J class market is extremely limited in the Regions. It made the cessation of mainline routes that bit easier on the basis of yield.
BA has operated a business strategy of shifting the premium pax via its London hub (and fair play to them for creaing profits that way).This strategy was assisted by a lack of real competition. The European opposition had at most one or two flights per day to MAN, so the LHR connection was obviously preferable to making the trek to FRA or CDG and the return leg. BA had it all stitched up - and they objected to licence applications from other would-be operators even though BA had no intention of operating the route themselves.
But things change. Mainland operators now fly several times a day to MAN from the main Euro hubs providing the worldwide connections. The improvements in rail travel mean the domestic traveller is using Virgin trains to get to London. I expect the LHR shuttles to steadily lose pax - to the point that they also become uneconomical and BA axe them or reduce frequencies. BA could end up losing the bulk of the regional J class pax to the foreign competition.
We're realistic enough to know that MAN can't sustain routes to all corners of the globe, but to stealthily jettison those outside the M25 and to present yourself as the national airline just grates a bit.
So with artifically reduced Business flyer loads on MAN based routes, the figures showed that the J class market is extremely limited in the Regions. It made the cessation of mainline routes that bit easier on the basis of yield.
BA has operated a business strategy of shifting the premium pax via its London hub (and fair play to them for creaing profits that way).This strategy was assisted by a lack of real competition. The European opposition had at most one or two flights per day to MAN, so the LHR connection was obviously preferable to making the trek to FRA or CDG and the return leg. BA had it all stitched up - and they objected to licence applications from other would-be operators even though BA had no intention of operating the route themselves.
But things change. Mainland operators now fly several times a day to MAN from the main Euro hubs providing the worldwide connections. The improvements in rail travel mean the domestic traveller is using Virgin trains to get to London. I expect the LHR shuttles to steadily lose pax - to the point that they also become uneconomical and BA axe them or reduce frequencies. BA could end up losing the bulk of the regional J class pax to the foreign competition.
We're realistic enough to know that MAN can't sustain routes to all corners of the globe, but to stealthily jettison those outside the M25 and to present yourself as the national airline just grates a bit.
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BA dumping the MAN/JFK just confirms the slide from grace that manchester has suffered over the past 2 years....just look at the airlines,routes and schedules on offer...just like liverpool but 30 miles down the road.very little business class traffic,plenty of cheap,no frills,bucket and spade passengers.nothing wrong with that,just a true reflection of the catchment area and the spend on air travel.ryanair expanding from it's MAN/DUB route,just the tip of the iceberg.are MAPLC offering preferential landing charges to FR in an attempt to encourage new routes ?? if so,how will the existing operators react? maybe like the previous subsidised route for continental when the airport offered to undewrite any losses,AA pulled the plug on the MAN/JFK straight away.tough times ahead for the regional airports,i believe BA's decision to cut and run on it's remaining longhaul route will not be the last.shame,but that's life !
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BA Longhaul/MAN
At the end of the day US airlines will always have the advantage over UK airlines of flights to the USA from the regions, it is a fact of life.
AA, CO and the rest can operate into their major hubs and secure traffic that is not point to point. This gives them an advantage as UK airlines including BA have no hub outside London to feed any traffic through.
Point to point on leisure routes to Vegas and Florida may be different.
Manchester is well cattered for by other airlines to the states and I am suprised that the BA flight lasted as long as it did.
Centre cities
AA, CO and the rest can operate into their major hubs and secure traffic that is not point to point. This gives them an advantage as UK airlines including BA have no hub outside London to feed any traffic through.
Point to point on leisure routes to Vegas and Florida may be different.
Manchester is well cattered for by other airlines to the states and I am suprised that the BA flight lasted as long as it did.
Centre cities
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Why the fuss?
BA ain't what it used to be, the cabin crew can be amongst the most un friendly out there (apart from the 80+ years olds that SAS can't sack) try SIA and you'll see what i mean........i could get locked up for my thoughts!!
The money (real money) is to be made from LHR, BA is a private company and even told Greedy Gordon to take a hike this week (well a Titan) when he wanted a 777 for his suck up trip to Bush (special relationship my arse, i have more "special relationships" with my hand) Manchester has a great future with or without BA and i suspect that we will have them or their bastard child (Flybe) around for many years yet, in fact i reckon that 15% is the lowest that BA will go with Flybe and once all the pain is over it might well become Flyba an e to an a ani't far to go!!
The money (real money) is to be made from LHR, BA is a private company and even told Greedy Gordon to take a hike this week (well a Titan) when he wanted a 777 for his suck up trip to Bush (special relationship my arse, i have more "special relationships" with my hand) Manchester has a great future with or without BA and i suspect that we will have them or their bastard child (Flybe) around for many years yet, in fact i reckon that 15% is the lowest that BA will go with Flybe and once all the pain is over it might well become Flyba an e to an a ani't far to go!!
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The fuss is because British Airways is still regarded as the national carrier of Britain, it may be not as much in this country as it used to be but for many people around the world it is the first British carrier they will think of.
Several times BA's management has promised investment in the primary cities of Manchester and Birmingham and these two airports have built facilities to accommodate BA. A319,s were ordered to strengthen the two hubs but these were hijacked by LHR to rectify a strategy which had gone wrong at Heathrow. Since then wrong equipment and poor business decisions and not enough time have lead to the present situation.
Yes Manchester and Birmingham have a smaller premium market to tap into but surely they are able to sustain a few long haul routes each especially if they were developed as mini hubs.
I am sure that if Lufthansa's board and management were running British Airways its route structure would look very different especially given the slot constrains at Heathrow.
Several times BA's management has promised investment in the primary cities of Manchester and Birmingham and these two airports have built facilities to accommodate BA. A319,s were ordered to strengthen the two hubs but these were hijacked by LHR to rectify a strategy which had gone wrong at Heathrow. Since then wrong equipment and poor business decisions and not enough time have lead to the present situation.
Yes Manchester and Birmingham have a smaller premium market to tap into but surely they are able to sustain a few long haul routes each especially if they were developed as mini hubs.
I am sure that if Lufthansa's board and management were running British Airways its route structure would look very different especially given the slot constrains at Heathrow.
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Any long haul routes outside London would undermine the business model which is built on feeding Heathrow. Were the A319s making money in the regions? No. They were moved into London and allowed European service to break even for the first time in ages. That's business.
The services are still all there, just run by carriers with more modern aircraft and cheaper fares. For premium services, it is still possible to use Air France, Lufthansa and KLM via THEIR hub airports. That's how it works.
As for a reality check, Air France are flying from London Heathrow to Los Angeles, do you see Lufthansa moving A340s into Manchester? No? Discuss!
The services are still all there, just run by carriers with more modern aircraft and cheaper fares. For premium services, it is still possible to use Air France, Lufthansa and KLM via THEIR hub airports. That's how it works.
As for a reality check, Air France are flying from London Heathrow to Los Angeles, do you see Lufthansa moving A340s into Manchester? No? Discuss!
Fit like min?
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Fortunately, more & more people are trying to avoid Deathrow these days, so maybe at some point in the future, Heathrow Airways may have to change its business model again? Too much feeding can give one indigestion.
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Skipness One Echo
BA, s A319 never got to be deployed on Manchester's european routes so no they obviously did not make any money or come to that loose any either. They are deployed on services to LHR and probably we will see them more to LGW in the coming months but do they actually make money in their own right.
I am not proposing Lufthansa operate A340,s through MAN, merely that a Lufthansa management team would have developed a two hub network based on different cities within the UK.
BA, s A319 never got to be deployed on Manchester's european routes so no they obviously did not make any money or come to that loose any either. They are deployed on services to LHR and probably we will see them more to LGW in the coming months but do they actually make money in their own right.
I am not proposing Lufthansa operate A340,s through MAN, merely that a Lufthansa management team would have developed a two hub network based on different cities within the UK.
Last edited by comet 4b623PW; 20th Apr 2008 at 15:41. Reason: spelling
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I think the only way for MAN to be a hub is for an alliance, preferably Star, but Skyteam would be OK too. BA was never going to do anything in the regions, as there was too much good competition, so better to work on your monopoly, so the NY demise cannot surprise anyone. I only flew the route once, outbound from JFK G-Tech broke down, then they moved me to LHR and surprise, surprise - no bag (again). I always use DL/US/CO and when they did a good job through IAD BD.
BA will always be remembered as the Mr. promising in the regions, now I hope they enjoy all the growth potential which is in London (hee hee).
BA will always be remembered as the Mr. promising in the regions, now I hope they enjoy all the growth potential which is in London (hee hee).
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Far from it ......just realistic.
I have no problem with BA at London, if only they would just get on with it down there and keep there nose out of MAN.
It's the pious lip service that they have paid to Manchester over 30 years dressed up in spin that sticks in the claw.
Clearly you havn't been around long enough to remember the objections they lodged against EVERY application to serve Manchester in the 70s 80s 90s, the main objection being that it would effect their posn as the national airline....and stuff the travelling public North of Birmingham.
Nobody will know whether expansion at that time would have cemented MANs position as a major long haul gateway or indeed whether this would have been sustained, but it would have been nice to at least have the opportunity.
Many on here also remember the continual spin about expansion in the future by BA and that they were always looking at new routes......complete and utter waffle !
They bought into Cathay and quickly fixed that service by leaning on CX who canx the daily flight based on lack of aircraft, that flight then resurfaced with an extra daily from LHR a few weeks later !!!
They got into bed with QANTAS and same thing happened !
Oh and what about IBERIA ...nearly forgot that one.
They are interesetd in one thing only and that is sucking total UK demand into LHR, no problem, fully understand that re cost of scale etc etc but please dont treat us as morons.
As I said good riddance !
I have no problem with BA at London, if only they would just get on with it down there and keep there nose out of MAN.
It's the pious lip service that they have paid to Manchester over 30 years dressed up in spin that sticks in the claw.
Clearly you havn't been around long enough to remember the objections they lodged against EVERY application to serve Manchester in the 70s 80s 90s, the main objection being that it would effect their posn as the national airline....and stuff the travelling public North of Birmingham.
Nobody will know whether expansion at that time would have cemented MANs position as a major long haul gateway or indeed whether this would have been sustained, but it would have been nice to at least have the opportunity.
Many on here also remember the continual spin about expansion in the future by BA and that they were always looking at new routes......complete and utter waffle !
They bought into Cathay and quickly fixed that service by leaning on CX who canx the daily flight based on lack of aircraft, that flight then resurfaced with an extra daily from LHR a few weeks later !!!
They got into bed with QANTAS and same thing happened !
Oh and what about IBERIA ...nearly forgot that one.
They are interesetd in one thing only and that is sucking total UK demand into LHR, no problem, fully understand that re cost of scale etc etc but please dont treat us as morons.
As I said good riddance !
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They bought into Cathay and quickly fixed that service by leaning on CX who canx the daily flight based on lack of aircraft, that flight then resurfaced with an extra daily from LHR a few weeks later !!!