DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 4
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When BMI changed the timings and p***ed off the business traveler doing a day in the city it was clear the route was slot sitting. The better slots that allowed the route to operate at the times the market demanded were moved to other routes and the market used the train instead.....
As to London, LCY is full at peak times and borderline routes have failed in recent years include NCL and BHD which didn't work out in better times than today.
BE don't have a base at LGW so would need to operate from MME I suspect and that I don't really see. Truth is that I don't really see anyone operating a London route from here these days.
As to London, LCY is full at peak times and borderline routes have failed in recent years include NCL and BHD which didn't work out in better times than today.
BE don't have a base at LGW so would need to operate from MME I suspect and that I don't really see. Truth is that I don't really see anyone operating a London route from here these days.
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What "huge decline in industry" would this be? Drop me a reply, and I'll check back here after I've taken the whippet for a walk down by the closed pit. :-)
I've lived here for over 25 years, and have never seen the area so prosperous.
Or the closed ICI works, or the shrunken steel works, or the closed shipyards, or any other of the declined industries.
? Most of the former ICI businesses were sold off, but still generated traffic, sometimes more than ever, as the new owners were overseas, like Huntsman, Ineos, Uniqema, Sembcorp or Johnson Matthey. Some of these have been customers of my own business in recent times, so I know them and their sites well. Some of my friends work for the other companies. I'm not basing what I say on an outdated, stereotypical view based on "World in Action" from 1981.
Shrunken steelworks? British Steel (that was) did all their major contraction circa 1980, with the area's staff reducing from 50,000 to 5,000. Not much has changed since, apart from ownership. I was involved with them during time on the commercial side at SAS.
Closed shipyards. ?! Swan Hunter? Sunderland Shipbuilders? I knew the business travel manager at Swans as a customer during my time at SAS, and they weren't big travellers. Sunderland Shipbuilders (or whatever they became) disappeared around 1986, and were smaller than Swans. The Jarrow March was some time before this.
My original point stands - this area has been far from depressed, and now has a high degree of diversification in the local commerce base, which makes for a resilient local economy. 1983 was utterly different, with the signs of serious contraction, yet the route did well. So-called recession, supposedly over the last few years, is not the reason to close the route. Midland have utterly mishandled the product after many years of having a cracking, high-yield route.
? Most of the former ICI businesses were sold off, but still generated traffic, sometimes more than ever, as the new owners were overseas, like Huntsman, Ineos, Uniqema, Sembcorp or Johnson Matthey. Some of these have been customers of my own business in recent times, so I know them and their sites well. Some of my friends work for the other companies. I'm not basing what I say on an outdated, stereotypical view based on "World in Action" from 1981.
Shrunken steelworks? British Steel (that was) did all their major contraction circa 1980, with the area's staff reducing from 50,000 to 5,000. Not much has changed since, apart from ownership. I was involved with them during time on the commercial side at SAS.
Closed shipyards. ?! Swan Hunter? Sunderland Shipbuilders? I knew the business travel manager at Swans as a customer during my time at SAS, and they weren't big travellers. Sunderland Shipbuilders (or whatever they became) disappeared around 1986, and were smaller than Swans. The Jarrow March was some time before this.
My original point stands - this area has been far from depressed, and now has a high degree of diversification in the local commerce base, which makes for a resilient local economy. 1983 was utterly different, with the signs of serious contraction, yet the route did well. So-called recession, supposedly over the last few years, is not the reason to close the route. Midland have utterly mishandled the product after many years of having a cracking, high-yield route.
Last edited by Midland 331; 20th Feb 2009 at 05:57.
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There are of course various factors that have brought bmi to the present situation, some are not in their control, LHR cost increases, Goverment APD, additional security costs post 9/11 and the chaos that is LHR. bmi compounded these by adding its own mistakes, the main one being the current CEO "new business model" which was no more than a cost cutting exercise, which meant you had to pay for food and drinks on all short haul flights, only to be changed within weeks to exclude DUB,BRU,BHD,EDI&GLA,mean while the regional operation continued to provide food and drink. As the loads declined so slots were changed making the services less attractive. The train service has of course improved and there are far more services to other airports with out going via LHR
bmibaby then pulled out to put the aircraft into BHX, despite the spin the loads were good and the yield could have been improved with a few route tweaks.
This is worrying for DTV, but more so for bmi, the figure i was quoted yesterday by one of their skippers was that they are bleeding a >£1m a week and i can't see that been plugged by this weeks announcement
sad to see such a once fine company in such a tail spin
bmibaby then pulled out to put the aircraft into BHX, despite the spin the loads were good and the yield could have been improved with a few route tweaks.
This is worrying for DTV, but more so for bmi, the figure i was quoted yesterday by one of their skippers was that they are bleeding a >£1m a week and i can't see that been plugged by this weeks announcement
sad to see such a once fine company in such a tail spin
from the Northern Echo:
Mr Lang said:
DURHAM Tees Valley chiefs last night assured passengers they would do everything possible to fill the gap in the timetable left by the departure of bmi.
DTV chiefs will now look for a replacement carrier to run the Heathrow service, as well as investigate other links to London.
DTV chiefs will now look for a replacement carrier to run the Heathrow service, as well as investigate other links to London.
Mr Lang said:
“I am equally sure that the business community, our local authorities and development agencies will do everything possible to support us in examining all possible options for maintaining links into London and services to the rest of the world.”
Mr Lang said no jobs would go because of bmi’s decision, other than workers employed by the airline. He said plans for a 100-bed hotel on the west side of the airport were unaffected by the announcement.
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I have to laugh at the tripe the airport put out theses days.
"plans for the 100 bed hotel are unaffected"
Would this be the application submitted by the plant hire contractor from Charltons that was never going to happen in this lifetime.
And then we get the usual "Business community will support us" stuff.
Fact is they won't support you.. thats why Bmi are going, there are fewer companies needing to send people on jollies to the Big City these days, a helluvalot of business is done on video links, and in the contracting economy all firms carefully scrutinise the need and the expense of sending people off for a day. And this is especially true when the flight times are as inconvenient as they have been in recent years.
And one other thought, as it was allegedley the Chairman of BMI who insisted that Peel change the name of the Airport when the "baby " deal was done will we now revert to the name that the Spanish use...TEESSIDE ?
"plans for the 100 bed hotel are unaffected"
Would this be the application submitted by the plant hire contractor from Charltons that was never going to happen in this lifetime.
And then we get the usual "Business community will support us" stuff.
Fact is they won't support you.. thats why Bmi are going, there are fewer companies needing to send people on jollies to the Big City these days, a helluvalot of business is done on video links, and in the contracting economy all firms carefully scrutinise the need and the expense of sending people off for a day. And this is especially true when the flight times are as inconvenient as they have been in recent years.
And one other thought, as it was allegedley the Chairman of BMI who insisted that Peel change the name of the Airport when the "baby " deal was done will we now revert to the name that the Spanish use...TEESSIDE ?
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You can talk all day as to how prosperous the area was now against that 10 years ago or whenever with its effects on demand from business, but it is really a totally irrelevant argument!
The route failed due to a change in the market influenced by demand for slots at LHR which has led to a completely distorted picture on operating costs. The relevance of the business pax on this route is purely the added value to the airline of onward connections, better timings & service levels would have generated the pax & a 'profitable' service. BMI killed the route not the people of Teesside, principally by downgrading the quality of slot times & no. of flights which led to justifiably smaller offerings in capacity. The business model upon which BMI operate that led them to this course of action should be debated elsewhere. What should be discussed in much more detail is to why MME/DTV allowed this to happen!. You did not need to work at the airport to see this 'juggernaut' approaching. Weak management allowed themselves to be tied into agreements with airlines where the airline had all the influence, the result :- no more than embarrassing apologies for the inevitable ensuing disasters. HL must shoulder the most blame, his inept management over a long period gave very little, where is he now ?,conveniently sitting in the 'same' office with a non DTV title whilst his protégée KQ continues to flounder assisted by many other under achieving appointments. That Peel the owners, appear from their public stance at least to be prepared to countenance this situation is disturbing,
The route failed due to a change in the market influenced by demand for slots at LHR which has led to a completely distorted picture on operating costs. The relevance of the business pax on this route is purely the added value to the airline of onward connections, better timings & service levels would have generated the pax & a 'profitable' service. BMI killed the route not the people of Teesside, principally by downgrading the quality of slot times & no. of flights which led to justifiably smaller offerings in capacity. The business model upon which BMI operate that led them to this course of action should be debated elsewhere. What should be discussed in much more detail is to why MME/DTV allowed this to happen!. You did not need to work at the airport to see this 'juggernaut' approaching. Weak management allowed themselves to be tied into agreements with airlines where the airline had all the influence, the result :- no more than embarrassing apologies for the inevitable ensuing disasters. HL must shoulder the most blame, his inept management over a long period gave very little, where is he now ?,conveniently sitting in the 'same' office with a non DTV title whilst his protégée KQ continues to flounder assisted by many other under achieving appointments. That Peel the owners, appear from their public stance at least to be prepared to countenance this situation is disturbing,
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you could argue all day about relative prosperity of the area compared with 10, 20, 40 years ago.It is relevant to a point.The CAAs own stats show a declining use of the Heathrow route over the last few years, its a lot down to the Business traveller, either not travelling, or using the train because the times are more convenient. (Oh and having to take your bloody belt off to go through security still hacks off a lot of regular commuters)
Peel have been quietly sitting on the £1700 per acre development site watching this happen , thats why they are called Peel Holdings.
Its simple really
Peel have been quietly sitting on the £1700 per acre development site watching this happen , thats why they are called Peel Holdings.
Its simple really
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If the one silver lining is that remianing routes don't appear to be under threat, MME really is heading to the mire.
We now have AMS, ABZ and DUB (on a reduced frequency) with ALC and GRO in the summer months-talk about a huge retograde step!!
The more I think about it I'm just not sure whether any operator will fill in their boots. With the green agenda and economy as it is, plus MME management unable to attract even a tumbleweed, the days of attracting services to LON are probably gone as most airports do everything to just sustain them.
Having said that, I am certain LBA will manage to as their management seem a little more proactive than at MME!
We now have AMS, ABZ and DUB (on a reduced frequency) with ALC and GRO in the summer months-talk about a huge retograde step!!
The more I think about it I'm just not sure whether any operator will fill in their boots. With the green agenda and economy as it is, plus MME management unable to attract even a tumbleweed, the days of attracting services to LON are probably gone as most airports do everything to just sustain them.
Having said that, I am certain LBA will manage to as their management seem a little more proactive than at MME!
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Parsnip
You are simply wasting more time on this point, it's now become a classic "chicken & egg" argument i.e. did the business travellers not travel because there were no services?, OR were there no services because there was a lesser demand for business travel?.
Marketing departments have the job of aligning supply & demand whilst identifying as to how to stimulate both & being able to act accordingly whether the purpose being of selling to airlines or to the public, something that again MME/DTV have failed hopelessly!
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its a lot down to the Business traveller, either not travelling, or using the train because the times are more convenient.
. Marketing departments have the job of aligning supply & demand whilst identifying as to how to stimulate both & being able to act accordingly whether the purpose being of selling to airlines or to the public, something that again MME/DTV have failed hopelessly!
.
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..not until the day that (any) UK Government wakes up to the fact that it has been losing out to mainland europe hubs for many years now and could potentially both assist in improving the economies of some of the poorer UK regions, as well as retaining more work for both crews and airport staff by ringfencing slots at LHR for regional traffic.
Most other EU states have this protection in place.
I, for one, would like to see that once a third runway is laid at LHR, a certain number of slots would be so ringfenced for regional UK operations. I don't even think there is any necessity to cost the exchequer by subsidising such routes via PSO status...I honestly believe that if the slots were held aside for domestic/regional operations only, then the likes of BA, flyBe, Loganair, Air Southwest etc etc could and would operate them profitably.
Most other EU states have this protection in place.
I, for one, would like to see that once a third runway is laid at LHR, a certain number of slots would be so ringfenced for regional UK operations. I don't even think there is any necessity to cost the exchequer by subsidising such routes via PSO status...I honestly believe that if the slots were held aside for domestic/regional operations only, then the likes of BA, flyBe, Loganair, Air Southwest etc etc could and would operate them profitably.
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I wholehertedly agree. Let's allow Inverness, Jersey, Guernsey, Ronaldsway, Leeds, Teesside et al access to the benefits of the UK world hub.
It's possible that a *proper* fast train from Leeds and Teesside might be more appropriate for those but regional access to Heathrow is a MUST.
It's possible that a *proper* fast train from Leeds and Teesside might be more appropriate for those but regional access to Heathrow is a MUST.
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Yes the timings were poor but surely there was a reason behind that? I mean would you give MME the best timings or would you give the better timings to a more profitable route, say EDI or GLA? I know what I would do... 
As for a replacement, I wonder whether AF/KL might be interested in an LCY route using VLM? Unlikely I guess as they would probably have started NCL-LCY by now if so. I would have to question those stating Flybe are looking at LGW as surely this would take away from their own NCL-LGW route?
As for a replacement, I wonder whether AF/KL might be interested in an LCY route using VLM? Unlikely I guess as they would probably have started NCL-LCY by now if so. I would have to question those stating Flybe are looking at LGW as surely this would take away from their own NCL-LGW route?
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mmeteesside
You really need to stop fantasising you are sounding more like a Reggie with every post ! Get real ! Any service provider has to deal with appropriate timings / slots & available aircraft which without any other routes & base operations is twice as hard to organise. Start up costs are likely to be high & really there is likely to be little motivation to set up a stand alone london route. What you need to hope for is that you may in time get a loco who could combine a london route to say STN/LGW/LTN with some other sunshine routes ie effectively a small base operation...... but then that may be some time off.
I wonder whether AF/KL might be interested in an LCY route using VLM?
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BBC Look North are reporting that tourism traffic to the North East from Europe is booming, due mainly to the favourable pound/euro. Trouble is, punters are arriving on cheap cruise ships from Holland and not by air. Passenger figures are up 20% just for this year so far.
On the Northern Echo's website:
Show your support for the campaign and 'Keep The Region Flying'
12:22pm Friday 20th February 2009
The Northern Echo is urging the Government to step in to maintain the region's air links with London following the departure of bmi from Durham Tees Valley Airport.
We want to know your thoughts on the termination of the bmi link to the capital and the wider issue of the North-East being squeezed out of London airports.
12:22pm Friday 20th February 2009
The Northern Echo is urging the Government to step in to maintain the region's air links with London following the departure of bmi from Durham Tees Valley Airport.
We want to know your thoughts on the termination of the bmi link to the capital and the wider issue of the North-East being squeezed out of London airports.
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LHR
Domestic routes to LHR and London from the regions are in decline and this will continue.
If passengers are going to London the train is avaiable.
The future for the regional airports is connections into euro hubs ie. AMS and FRA and this is what should be pushed for. The connections are often easier and better.
The important think is to keep the transit passengers departing but not via London
In the long run it could be a blessing.
Centre cities
If passengers are going to London the train is avaiable.
The future for the regional airports is connections into euro hubs ie. AMS and FRA and this is what should be pushed for. The connections are often easier and better.
The important think is to keep the transit passengers departing but not via London
In the long run it could be a blessing.
Centre cities
DTV Revenue
At the end of the day,it will come down to how much money the airport is actually making for Peel. You have got to say,at the moment,not very much?
Its going to be a very difficult year for all airports and airlines.There will be many casualties along the way and sorry to say but DTV could be one of them?
An airport this size cant survive on 4 Jetstreams to aberdeen and 3 Fokker 70's to Amsterdam per day,can it? The small revenue stream earned by taking the freight/mail flights from newcastle is coming to an end this week,nearly 2 months earlier than predicted.Hope the budget hasnt included those figures.
The MOD contract seems to be a very sparse operation.
According to this thread Ryanair are actually cutting back on the amount of flights they had last year and the summer IT's are a joke.
If it wasnt for the contract with FRA then the revenue stream would dry up almost completely.It was also reported that this could be doubtful in the future?
None will take over the LHR flights and its very unlikely as pointed out above ,no one will introduce any new destinations.
As always a downbeat thread(sorry Blahblahblah),but really where do we go from here??? Suggestions welcome.
Its going to be a very difficult year for all airports and airlines.There will be many casualties along the way and sorry to say but DTV could be one of them?
An airport this size cant survive on 4 Jetstreams to aberdeen and 3 Fokker 70's to Amsterdam per day,can it? The small revenue stream earned by taking the freight/mail flights from newcastle is coming to an end this week,nearly 2 months earlier than predicted.Hope the budget hasnt included those figures.
The MOD contract seems to be a very sparse operation.
According to this thread Ryanair are actually cutting back on the amount of flights they had last year and the summer IT's are a joke.
If it wasnt for the contract with FRA then the revenue stream would dry up almost completely.It was also reported that this could be doubtful in the future?
None will take over the LHR flights and its very unlikely as pointed out above ,no one will introduce any new destinations.
As always a downbeat thread(sorry Blahblahblah),but really where do we go from here??? Suggestions welcome.