GATWICK

[Bearpit]

Norwegian @ LGW

Norwegian seem to be expanding all over the place at present. Does anyone know how many aircraft are due in Gatwick this summer?

[LNIDA]

Bearpit

based aircraft is only part of the story, but i think there are four based aircraft, as in they night stop there.

Norwegian now have a 10% share of passenger numbers at LGW

[adfly]

For this coming summer I think it will be 6x 738's and 1x 788. I would also think it will be likely that Norwegian will launch LGW-BKK for W14, especially considering the CEO's comments about London being where they would like to grow longhaul as 'everybody wants to visit London'.

[LN-KGL]

I think we need a small correction to both the two last replies.

Norwegian’s market shares for international passengers at LGW in 2013 were:

Quarter 2013 | Share of international passengers | Passenger growth
1st | 6% | +21,000 passengers
2nd | 7% | +176,000 passengers
3rd | 6% | +243,000 passengers
4th | 10% | +221,000 passengers

In the third quarter this year LGW had 921,786 domestic passengers and rest (6.9 million) were international passengers. From this then around 690,000 of the passengers either were arriving to - or departing from LGW on board a Norwegian aircraft. We can also calculate Norwegian’s Q4 growth at LGW to be around 47%. 13% of Norwegian’s passengers during Q4 had one end of a flight at LGW.

Now let’s move to the Dreamliner flights starting in July from LGW. Gatwick will not be a Dreamliner base (BKK, FLL and JFK will for now be their crew bases), but Norwegian Air International will offer transfer tickets via LGW – in other words there will be a small hub operation at LGW.

Here is the timetable for the Dreamliner operation at LGW from July:

Weekday | Inbound from | Outbound to | Time on ground
Monday | LAX 13:35 | FLL 15:55 | 02:20
Tuesday | FLL 11:55 | JFK 17:10 | 05:15
Wednesday | JFK 09:00 | LAX 15:35 | 06:35
Thursday | LAX 15:00 | JFK 17:10 | 02:10
Friday | JFK 09:00 | FLL 15:55 | 06:55
Saturday | FLL 11:55 | JFK 17:10 | 05:15
Sunday | JFK 09:00 | LAX 13:45 | 04:45

At most outbound destinations from LGW, this Dreamliner will not be the only Norwegian Dreamliner arriving around the same time and a swap will be possible.

[fjencl]

Small Planet

Anybody know what routes the small planet A320 is operating out of LGW this year, and for what travel companies.

Just wondered.

Thanks

[wallp]

Norwegian

LN-KGL an interesting post. There does seem to be quite a lot of time on the ground for the Dreamliner at Gatwick. I wonder if that might change should another plane be added in due course, giving greater operational flexibility?

Does anyone know how the Norwegian US routes are selling & whether it's likely that these routes could see improved frequencies in time?

[LNIDA]

Sale in accordance to plan is what the company line is, as you would expect !but as LN-KGL says transfer passengers are adding to the sales volumes and you have to look at the flights from the US back to OSL,CPH,ARN as well as LGW to see the bigger picture, if your catching a connecting flight, it makes no difference whether you do that at LGW or OSL if its on Norwegians network

For example you can fly between JFK & NCE every day of the week from July, leaving JFK at 21:30 and arrive at NCE at 14:35 (+1) with a 2:35 stop in London on the days there are no London flights you will go by way other the other hubs

Norwegian don't just point to point and thats the point, visit their website and click on flights, select any of the US points and look at all flights.

There are 75 destinations from JFK alone and all flights are on Norwegian flights

You need to think of Norwegian as a low cost schedule airline rather than a LoCo or Ultra LoCo...it is only then that you see what LGW will become

[Skipness One Echo]

You need to think of Norwegian as a low cost schedule airline rather than a LoCo or Ultra LoCo...it is only then that you see what LGW will become

I think many of us have seen this before, and if you really want to advertise your employer's routes and offerings, can you please just buy and advert and pay the money to PPRuNe?
Transfer passengers need overheads, it seems to me, Norwegian is heading for all the overheads of a legacy, but just paying thier employees peanuts to keep the cost base down. Shiny new 737s, 787s, super duper cheapo fares and connections. Of course, there is no catch and this is the Holy Grail.
Where are the flight deck crew based again? Is it still Bangkok? Hell of a commute to be fresh to fly....

[LNIDA]

I have edited the alleged advertising so just calm down !!

Many poster have alluded to your aggressive/arrogant respond to the views of others, you have previously put this down to a trait picked up from your school teachers, other's have blamed your geographical birth place, not my place to comment....

LGW is an international airport, it simply does not matter where the airlines come from, its all about route choice and pricing and a level of service that people find acceptable, be that BA, Emirates, Virgin or indeed Norwegian, in a few months, subject to the not insignificant issue of DOT route licences, then DY will commence transatlantic services from LGW using multinational crew including American, Thai, European nationals, Norwegian will succeed or fail on the strength of it product and pricing, it does have a premium class, they will carry belly cargo, they will carry transfer passengers, in fact they have been doing all of this for over 6 months now from their Scandinavian bases, LGW is no different, there is a huge market, an already satisfied customer base and growing brand awareness.

Looking back on what has and hasn't worked in the past is as you rightly say very important and you clearly have vast knowledge in this area, far, far more than I and i repeat that, but I think your own view blinds you at time's, its like blinkers in that you see Legacy =BA or low-cost = easyJet, my observation is that the market place has become much more fragmented over the past 24 months, but it was you who said back in May 2013 words to the effect of "let's revisit this in 12 months time" and that time is soon upon us, BA haven't launched a spoiler thus far and there is no indication that they will, these route will grow the market and if successful they will not be last.

Peanuts ??? lost me there I'm afraid

[Skipness One Echo]

other's have blamed your geographical birth place,

Are you seriously using my ethnic background in an argument? There's a word for that sort of silliness.

LGW is an international airport, it simply does not matter where the airlines come from, its all about route choice and pricing and a level of service that people find acceptable,

Raise your game, that's not sensible. Gatwick has a particular demographic of which you can push the boundaries, however if you step outside that, you will fail. I point you in the direction of every single previous operator of LGW-NYC, a route both Adam Thomson and SRB both admitted was only sustainable from LHR. The key point here is that to be competitive on some routes out of LGW on long haul you, er your employer is going to need Ryanair levels of a cost base as LGW is price led in a lot of markets. By all means have great fares, but you're going to struggle to make any money.

Peanuts ??? lost me there I'm afraid

It's an English expression, it means if you pay peanuts, well let's just say you won't be employing the highest calibre of people will you? *THIS* is they key difference Norwegian is bringing. Thomson and BA both fly the B787, however the crewing is a little more traditional. Norwegian may do well as will the consumer but my key point here is that at some point, this bending rules and getting around regulations by off-shoring is rightly going to bite them.

May I request you remove the remark on my background, we play the ball and not the man, where I was born has nothing to do with this and you really ought to know better than to mention it at all.

It just seems that you have one message on here which is how great Norwegain Air Shuttle is and to be honest, having watched what they're up to, they're doing exactly what Ryanair do, forcing down wages by off shoring in a rather extreme way. btw you didn't answer me, are they crewing Gatwick long haul from Bangkok? I understand they're Thai and American being regulated by Ireland and flying out of London.

You need to think of Norwegian as a low cost schedule airline rather than a LoCo

LoCo is a low cost scheduled airline, unless easyJet are terribly confused about their own business model.

[davidjohnson6]

this bending rules and getting around regulations by off-shoring is rightly going to bite them

Skipness - why do you make this assertion ?
The normal approach taken in offshoring, is to try to offshore more and more of your staff until customers start protesting in a big way, at which point you put out a press release saying "We're listening to the customer and lessons are being learned". You then move a few critical functions back onshore while moving other bits that you hadn't yet thought of offshore.

I don't like offshoring, but in many cases it's difficult to argue with the economic logic.

[Skipness One Echo]

I don't like offshoring, but in many cases it's difficult to argue with the economic logic.

It's not all about economics, unless you strike a balance you end up with some people getting much richer and the rest being left behind. Think of Mrs Thatcher's reforms which rightly cast aside old industry but neglected to do anything about the decimated communities left behind. They remain endemically damaged with young people with no experience of the job market whilst we import young enthusiastic foreigners and still pay for the original workforce to remain idle generation after generation. This is what IDS is struggling valiantly to fix.
In terms of aviation, Norwegian have set up a separate AOC for long haul, based it on paper in Ireland, crewed it with Thai and US nationals, lots of non EU flight deck and are looking to build a base out of London (still in the EU, for now. My key point is that these super fares are coming at the expense of downward pressure on terms and conditions of staff currently working in the industry and a worrying loosening of regulatory oversight. Someone will do very well out of this of course, some people will get a cheap flight, at the price of someone else's worth in the job market. Globalisation needs some balance and a degree of regulation

[davidjohnson6]

Skipness - I agree with offshoring leading to a hollowing out of the middle classes and all the social ills that it causes, but to keep the discussion roughly on topic, why will Norwegian using cheap Thai labour cause problems to *Norwegian* later ? If there's a really abysmal reaction by passengers, then Norwegian can think about improved training, but Ryanair seem to do OK with their cheap eastern / southern Europe cabin crew.

There's an endless pool of cheap labour who can speak basic English out there in the world - increased availability of cheap labour lowers Norwegians's costs and helps improve their profits. What happens to the overall attractiveness of being cabin crew as a career to the average UK school leaver is not really Norwegian's problem - or at least that's the way Norwegian senior management are likely to see it !

[Skipness One Echo]

Nothing, it will make some people very rich as the business grows. It does have an downward impact om EU based staff's terms and conditions, and I understand the Flight Deck are also partly based in Thailand. Much cheapness down the front end is not what's needed when things, as they inevitably will do one day, go wrong.

[LNIDA]

Skipness one echo

I have made no comment about about your background or birth place, i know nothing of you I was simply referring to the many previous post where others refer to your aggressive and often arrogant response to people who's views differ to that of yours that is a product of your birth place

Here is another English word "chip on shoulder" doesn't apply to you though, you're too balanced for that

Back to thread now please.

I think Norwegian have made a good job of what they have done so far at LGW

With regards to low wages for cabin crew, how much do Virgin cabin crew earn, when compared to BA?

Your suggestion that Norwegian employes monkeys is ridiculous, you may think they are mugs, but having met quite a few they seem descent sorts of chaps

I understand that JFK will be a crew base.

Lets leave it there shall we please

[crewmeal]

Looks like a new player in the ball game

Ryanair to offer flights to New York for £8 (or £145 after hidden charges) | Mail Online

Believe it when it happens, though me thinks not from LGW.

[Fairdealfrank]

Skipness - I agree with offshoring leading to a hollowing out of the middle classes and all the social ills that it causes, but to keep the discussion roughly on topic, why will Norwegian using cheap Thai labour cause problems to *Norwegian* later ? If there's a really abysmal reaction by passengers, then Norwegian can think about improved training, but Ryanair seem to do OK with their cheap eastern / southern Europe cabin crew.

A very important point that, davidjohnson6, the "hollowing out of the middle classes", is a more significant comment than perhaps intended.

A country with a shrinking middle class, or a "squeezed middle" to use politicians' jargon, is a country in decline. It is no so-incidence that the up-and-coming countries that we need to trade with have rapidly growing middle classes.

The middle classes have the discretionary expenditure, so an industry such as aviation, particularly the no-frills sector, depends to a large
extent on a prosperous middle class. The poor can't afford to fly, the rich get about in business/private jets.


By the way, Skipness One Echo, apologies for being nosey, but where were you born?

[davidjohnson6]

Can we move general discussion of offshoring of labour (ie not specific to Gatwick) to a different thread please ? It's certainly worthy of discussion - but a thread about Gatwick is not the place for that discussion

[LN-KGL]

I agree davidjohnson6, espesially as long as it's few facts in what we read. To round this off, here are a couple links for the fact finders:
Pilot Job: B787 Non Type Rated Captain Norwegian B787 Captains Norwegian Long Haul A/S - Rishworth Aviation

You Tube

[Skipness One Echo]

Actually let's not "leave it there." Are you able to justify accusing my racial or ethnic background in any way shape or form to having a "chip on my shoulder"?
Why mention this? What's it relevant to? Grow up and leave the mud slinging in the playground.
Why has Norwegian Air Shuttle created a shell company registered in Ireland? How many UK based pilots have been hired?
Why does an Irish registered EU based company have it's base in NEW YORK?
Is a Thai cabin crew base driving down ts and cs for EU based crew?

Go on, have a a go at answering.

By the way, Skipness One Echo, apologies for being nosey, but where were you born?

?????? You should know better, I am British through and through, however LN-KGL seems to think we're arrogant and chippy. Not good marketing for a PR man tbh