DUNDEE
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Edinburgh
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Because it isn't needed?
Correct, the airport isn't needed. 2 half loaded Dorniers a day doesn't justify £4,500,000pa of public subsidy. Locals voted with their feet (cars) a long time ago to go over the bridge to Edinburgh for speed, frequency, price, proper aircraft and convenience, to name but 5 good reasons.
Compare fares alone: next Monday, first/last flight lowest day return fare:
BA is £105 to Gatwick, £235 to Heathrow, £302 to City, Easy is £46 to Lutton, £70 to Gatwick, FlyBe is £145 to Heathrow, £186 to City and £271 to Stanstead.
And each Stanstead seat is basically also supported by about £400 of public subsidy to make it possible.
Correct, the airport isn't needed. 2 half loaded Dorniers a day doesn't justify £4,500,000pa of public subsidy. Locals voted with their feet (cars) a long time ago to go over the bridge to Edinburgh for speed, frequency, price, proper aircraft and convenience, to name but 5 good reasons.
Compare fares alone: next Monday, first/last flight lowest day return fare:
BA is £105 to Gatwick, £235 to Heathrow, £302 to City, Easy is £46 to Lutton, £70 to Gatwick, FlyBe is £145 to Heathrow, £186 to City and £271 to Stanstead.
And each Stanstead seat is basically also supported by about £400 of public subsidy to make it possible.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Age: 61
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Hmmm, a trifle partisan on the side of Edinburgh eh V12?
Well, in the words of Samuel L Jackson, allow me to retort:
One the 5 'good reasons' you mention, only one holds any water, and that is cost - but we will come back to that.
Speed - are you telling me it takes less time to drive (or for a real laugh, take public transport) to Edinburgh, park, get through security and the wonderful shopping experience, then walk half a mile or so to the gate than it does to make your way - even by walking - from Dundee city centre to the airport? Hmmm.
Convenience - you really haven't thought this through have you? I tried recently to get from Dundee to Edinburgh Airport using public transport. Maybe it can be done in less than two or three hours and maybe it doesn't involve changing trains or getting remote park & ride buses, but I couldn't find out how.
Proper aircraft - you try landing a 737 or A320 at Dundee and then come and talk about proper aircraft. Wipe the egg off your face first though.
Frequency - if you are going to the capital for the business day, how often do you need to get up and down during that day? I would suggest 'in the morning' and 'in the evening' pretty much fits the bill, eh?
And finally we come to cost. Yes, cheaper fares can be found, and unfortunately that is what sways a lot of people. However look a bit deeper. Parking at Dundee - £5.70 a day, Edinburgh - £27.99 for comparable convenience i.e. without taking a bus to the car park. And then the cost of the two or three hour trip getting from Dundee to Edinburgh.....and back....
At the other end only London City offers significant advantages over any of the others mentioned, however changes to their charging structures have effectively forced out smaller aircraft i.e. ones capable of operating from Dundee.
So you see it's not so straightforward is it? And when it comes down to it, I can't think of anything I'd rather see taxpayers' (my) money spent on in Dundee right now!
Oh, and anything that means I get to avoid the 'wonderful customer experience' that is Edinburgh Airport is just fine by me.
Well, in the words of Samuel L Jackson, allow me to retort:
One the 5 'good reasons' you mention, only one holds any water, and that is cost - but we will come back to that.
Speed - are you telling me it takes less time to drive (or for a real laugh, take public transport) to Edinburgh, park, get through security and the wonderful shopping experience, then walk half a mile or so to the gate than it does to make your way - even by walking - from Dundee city centre to the airport? Hmmm.
Convenience - you really haven't thought this through have you? I tried recently to get from Dundee to Edinburgh Airport using public transport. Maybe it can be done in less than two or three hours and maybe it doesn't involve changing trains or getting remote park & ride buses, but I couldn't find out how.
Proper aircraft - you try landing a 737 or A320 at Dundee and then come and talk about proper aircraft. Wipe the egg off your face first though.
Frequency - if you are going to the capital for the business day, how often do you need to get up and down during that day? I would suggest 'in the morning' and 'in the evening' pretty much fits the bill, eh?
And finally we come to cost. Yes, cheaper fares can be found, and unfortunately that is what sways a lot of people. However look a bit deeper. Parking at Dundee - £5.70 a day, Edinburgh - £27.99 for comparable convenience i.e. without taking a bus to the car park. And then the cost of the two or three hour trip getting from Dundee to Edinburgh.....and back....
At the other end only London City offers significant advantages over any of the others mentioned, however changes to their charging structures have effectively forced out smaller aircraft i.e. ones capable of operating from Dundee.
So you see it's not so straightforward is it? And when it comes down to it, I can't think of anything I'd rather see taxpayers' (my) money spent on in Dundee right now!
Oh, and anything that means I get to avoid the 'wonderful customer experience' that is Edinburgh Airport is just fine by me.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Edinburgh
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DB6: the gains are at the London end: try getting from Stanstead to a meeting anywhere in Canary Wharf, the West End, or anywhere in the City other than just by Liverpool St Station, and any time you lost in the inconveniences you cite in EDI, are won back and more down South. Next, try over-running your meeting and rushing to Stanstead only to just miss the flight (add 16hr wait with hotel costs), when there are loads of later flights from the other airports. There must be 50 flights to London from Edinburgh. And the Stanstead Express is unreliable. As for aircraft I obviously wasn't thinking of big planes in Dundee, just the difference between flying on a quieter jet at altitude to London, over a prop; even a Dash 8 is better than the Dornier. Anyway you don't begin to justify why taxpayers should have to pay £4.5million so 30 people a day don't have to use Edinburgh.
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Oban, Scotland
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I'm mystified why you think it takes that long. There's a train every hour which takes 70-75 minutes to Gateway. Even allowing for waiting for the tram, it must take less than 2 hours. And you can book the tram as an add on to the train ticket.
The question is, how much of this £4.5m subsidy should be paid by the public purse and how much should be paid by the small number of passengers.
The question is, how much of this £4.5m subsidy should be paid by the public purse and how much should be paid by the small number of passengers.
Join Date: Nov 2006
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The amount of times we see STANSTEAD rather than the correct spelling of STANSTED is unbelievable not only on PPRUNE but on other websites such as Airliners.net as well as in the media, I too find it totally annoying just as some people insist on adding a P to THOMSON referring to it as THOMPSON.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Dundee, Scotland
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V12, some valid points however, while I admit to not having carried out extensive research I cannot imagine any of the London airports you mention has a significant time advantage over Stansted apart from City - don't forget of course that Stansted is North of London so you will save 10 or 20 minutes flight time before you even land and think about taxiing time and how long it takes to get out of the airport and onto public transport.
You do have a point about overrunning meetings and missing flights though, and I seem to remember reading somewhere that earlier morning and later evening flight times may be under consideration - but don't quote me on that. And while not ideal there are other flights from Stansted that will get you to e.g. Edinburgh, and of course the train. But not ideal I grant you.
As for justification, well it's highly subjective but if we cast aside for a moment that middle management disease that is financial short-term thinking, I would say it is very important for Scotland's fourth largest city to have it's own airport and air routes, especially when you have things like the V&A and the Aviation Academy in the offing, to say nothing of the waterfront development and Tay Cities Deal. Fortunately the government agrees with me on that one
.
You do have a point about overrunning meetings and missing flights though, and I seem to remember reading somewhere that earlier morning and later evening flight times may be under consideration - but don't quote me on that. And while not ideal there are other flights from Stansted that will get you to e.g. Edinburgh, and of course the train. But not ideal I grant you.
As for justification, well it's highly subjective but if we cast aside for a moment that middle management disease that is financial short-term thinking, I would say it is very important for Scotland's fourth largest city to have it's own airport and air routes, especially when you have things like the V&A and the Aviation Academy in the offing, to say nothing of the waterfront development and Tay Cities Deal. Fortunately the government agrees with me on that one
.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Edinburgh
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I realise this may affect your deployment, but one has to wonder why for every 5 passengers you fly to Stansted, 95 others elect to drive from the Tayside catchment area to EDI (source: Govt report, 2013). It's not because of the fares being unrealistically high, as we know the Govt is already heavily subsidising them; so convenience, flexibility and the disproportionately lower price must be the prime reasons.
CAA stats show that the route has fallen from a peak of 70kpa to around 20kpa in the last decade; compare that with the exponential growth ex EDI to LON.
Fact: Low cost airlines and low fares suck the traffic from regional airports to the major hubs. No s*** Sherlock. And the taxpayer is currently bearing the cost of trying (failing) to arrest the inevitable. There are no facts to suggest otherwise. Creative and/or vanity projects will bring in new money/visitors to the region, but again the Govt's own reports recognise that extra visitors will arrive in the main by surface transport along the A90, not through DND, so they can't arrest the shrinkage. To be fair, the Govt and the city council should be applauded as they have really tried everything to support it (including massive support of BE to AMS), but the locals don't want it in the increasing numbers it needs to justify these huge subsidies. The report states that breakeven for the airport is at a multiple of 20 times the current passenger throughflow.
And for DND vs EDI, you can also substitute PIK vs GLA.
Now study the history of scheduled air services ex Sheffield, or Nottingham, Teesside, Oxford, Cambridge, Carlisle, Manston…
CAA stats show that the route has fallen from a peak of 70kpa to around 20kpa in the last decade; compare that with the exponential growth ex EDI to LON.
Fact: Low cost airlines and low fares suck the traffic from regional airports to the major hubs. No s*** Sherlock. And the taxpayer is currently bearing the cost of trying (failing) to arrest the inevitable. There are no facts to suggest otherwise. Creative and/or vanity projects will bring in new money/visitors to the region, but again the Govt's own reports recognise that extra visitors will arrive in the main by surface transport along the A90, not through DND, so they can't arrest the shrinkage. To be fair, the Govt and the city council should be applauded as they have really tried everything to support it (including massive support of BE to AMS), but the locals don't want it in the increasing numbers it needs to justify these huge subsidies. The report states that breakeven for the airport is at a multiple of 20 times the current passenger throughflow.
And for DND vs EDI, you can also substitute PIK vs GLA.
Now study the history of scheduled air services ex Sheffield, or Nottingham, Teesside, Oxford, Cambridge, Carlisle, Manston…
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Midlands
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Perhaps it should have stated in the PSO T&C's a proportion of seats, lets say 50% for simple calculation should have been offered at a maximum of say £50 one-way (not scientific deliberately), as a way of stimulating the increased volumes on the route. This is the case on many UK & European PSO's.
In this way, the route should then be achieving 80%+ load factor which should arguably benefit the region a little more.
In this way, the route should then be achieving 80%+ load factor which should arguably benefit the region a little more.
Join Date: Apr 2001
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In this way, the route should then be achieving 80%+ load factor which should arguably benefit the region a little more
And if it was outbound holidaymakers on the £50 seats, how does that benefit the region?
Would £50 seats result in more inward tourists or business people that wouldn't otherwise have come to Tayside at all? I suspect the jury's gonna be out on that for a long time
Join Date: Feb 2012
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"benefit the region" is certainly an arguable proposition. Who would take the £50 seats? More Dundee business people? And how would them flying from DND instead of EDI (or train) benefit the region?
And if it was outbound holidaymakers on the £50 seats, how does that benefit the region?
Would £50 seats result in more inward tourists or business people that wouldn't otherwise have come to Tayside at all? I suspect the jury's gonna be out on that for a long time
And if it was outbound holidaymakers on the £50 seats, how does that benefit the region?
Would £50 seats result in more inward tourists or business people that wouldn't otherwise have come to Tayside at all? I suspect the jury's gonna be out on that for a long time
It isn't an "un-served" region with ABZ an hour north and EDI and hour south, and GLA little more than 90-minutes SW. All of which have vibrant commercial schedules in abundance.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scotland
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I noticed this airprox report incident about a month before the AMS cancellation and wondered if it had a partial bearing?
https://www.airproxboard.org.uk/uplo...%202016212.pdf
https://www.airproxboard.org.uk/uplo...%202016212.pdf
its interesting to see that 2 professional pilots just blunder through an active parachuting site, they could so easily have hit the parachutist. Should professional pilots not be forced to carry and look at the same 1;500,000 chart that every other airspace user is legally obliged to carry?
Join Date: Jul 2011
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The fact they kept on bussing people to EDI and back for months meant there was a demand. If it was such a weak route they would not have gone to that length or forked out the expense of keeping AMS and EDI slots nor would they have provided the transport or refreshments for the affected passengers. They would have simply cancelled the offer of DND-AMS altogether and refunded the money.