HEATHROW
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1. In most of the cases where this has happened the "old" airport has remained open: ORY/CDG, LGA/JFK, CIA/FCO, SVO/DME, SHA/PVG, GMP/ICN, HND/NRT, DMK/BKK, YUL/YMQ, etc., are just a few examples of many.
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Singapore adding a fourth SIN-LHR service from ~ Sep.
SQ306 will see the return of the B777-300ER onto the route after the route recently was upgauged to triple daily A388.
SQ306 will see the return of the B777-300ER onto the route after the route recently was upgauged to triple daily A388.
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Quote: "Shareholders may get to vote at the BAA AGM, but that doesn't mean they get to formulate government airport policy."
Government policy does not always prevail, for example, it is government policy for bonuses not to be paid for bankers and top CEOs who fail. How well is that one enforced?
Quote: "I don't suppose they were thrilled about the enforced sale of Gatwick, Stansted and Edinburgh either, but they didn't have any choice."
Don't remember those airports being closed down. STN hasn't been sold, yet. Interesting, isn't it, how the monopoloies commission appears to be turning a BAA monopoly into a BAA/GIP duopoly! Ho hum.
Quote: "Except that in the case of Montreal, one of the airports DID eventually close - YMQ!"
Indeed, the new "replacement" site, Mirabel YMQ, was eventually closed to pax, and all traffic reverted to the original airport, Dorval YUL, which remained opened throughout. AFAIK, YMQ is now just a cargo airport.
Government policy does not always prevail, for example, it is government policy for bonuses not to be paid for bankers and top CEOs who fail. How well is that one enforced?
Quote: "I don't suppose they were thrilled about the enforced sale of Gatwick, Stansted and Edinburgh either, but they didn't have any choice."
Don't remember those airports being closed down. STN hasn't been sold, yet. Interesting, isn't it, how the monopoloies commission appears to be turning a BAA monopoly into a BAA/GIP duopoly! Ho hum.
Quote: "Except that in the case of Montreal, one of the airports DID eventually close - YMQ!"
Indeed, the new "replacement" site, Mirabel YMQ, was eventually closed to pax, and all traffic reverted to the original airport, Dorval YUL, which remained opened throughout. AFAIK, YMQ is now just a cargo airport.
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Quote: "SAA will cancel CPT-LHR from 15th August"
Another example of a carrier unable to make money operating longhaul routes that do not start or end at it's hub?
One for the BHX thread?
Another example of a carrier unable to make money operating longhaul routes that do not start or end at it's hub?
One for the BHX thread?
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 9th Jun 2012 at 21:53.
FairDeal - I accept that Cape Town is not a major hub for SAA but with about 9 short haul routes on SAA from CPT it's not exactly a remote spoke either. Presumably SAA was helped partly by bmi Star feed until sold by Lufthansa.
However the point remains - when does a station with characteristics of a focus city become able to support long haul (ie a true hub) or when does a small hub cease to be able to support long haul ?
The world is grey (not black and white) amd I'm curious as to what the answer is - apologies for thread drift
However the point remains - when does a station with characteristics of a focus city become able to support long haul (ie a true hub) or when does a small hub cease to be able to support long haul ?
The world is grey (not black and white) amd I'm curious as to what the answer is - apologies for thread drift
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 9th Jun 2012 at 22:38.
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Quote: "FairDeal - I accept that Cape Town is not a major hub for SAA but with about 9 short haul routes on SAA from CPT it's not exactly a remote spoke either."
In fairness, davidjohnson6, did specifically mention longhaul in my post!
Quote: "Presumably SAA was helped partly by bmi Star feed until sold by Lufthansa."
Makes sense, maybe there wasn't as much O&D and VFR traffic as would be expected. Wasn't SA at MAN back in the day?
Quote: "However the point remains - when does a station with characteristics of a focus city become able to support long haul (ie a true hub) or when does a small hub cease to be able to support long haul ?"
The world is grey (not black and white) amd I'm curious as to what the answer is - apologies for thread drift "
It's a good question, only mentioned SA LHR-CPT because it illustrates that this isn't purely a European situation. To date we've only had examples of the UK, France and Germany.
On the other hand, for example, JJ hubs at GRU but makes its focus city GIG work very well with longhaul to several longhaul cities.
In fairness, davidjohnson6, did specifically mention longhaul in my post!
Quote: "Presumably SAA was helped partly by bmi Star feed until sold by Lufthansa."
Makes sense, maybe there wasn't as much O&D and VFR traffic as would be expected. Wasn't SA at MAN back in the day?
Quote: "However the point remains - when does a station with characteristics of a focus city become able to support long haul (ie a true hub) or when does a small hub cease to be able to support long haul ?"
The world is grey (not black and white) amd I'm curious as to what the answer is - apologies for thread drift "
It's a good question, only mentioned SA LHR-CPT because it illustrates that this isn't purely a European situation. To date we've only had examples of the UK, France and Germany.
On the other hand, for example, JJ hubs at GRU but makes its focus city GIG work very well with longhaul to several longhaul cities.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 9th Jun 2012 at 23:19.
Paxing All Over The World
SAA will cancel CPT-LHR from 15th August
Anyone that knows the LHR~JNB/CPT route knows that the preference for Bix paz to travel overnight and for holiday pax not to take an entire day in travelling, means that the a/c has to sit on the ground for 12, even 14 hours when down route. Sometimes there is a daylight leg but mostly they are night.
For SA that means both the JNB and CPT machines having to be towed off stand to be parked up and then towed back after a day of earning no money. That's expensive.
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Quote: "For SA that means both the JNB and CPT machines having to be towed off stand to be parked up and then towed back after a day of earning no money. That's expensive."
True enough, good point!
True enough, good point!
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 10th Jun 2012 at 20:12.
If you take 12 hours for a north-south sector a daylight flight leaving at say 8 am and arriving at 8 pm is not viable because you lose good connection opportunities at both ends, at one the first inbounds have not come in at say 6.30 am, and at the other end the last outbounds are all gone by say 9.30 pm. So you can only really do this where you have heavy O&D. The UK to South Africa market is not like this so overnights both ways is the only way to go. Or not at all if you don't get the loads.
BMI was good LHR feed for Star carriers at Heathrow (this was, of course, one reason why they lost so much money, just getting a small share of long distance passengers' revenue) and so I can't see it being the last such reduction. Some of Air Canada's services to smaller Canadian points not served through Frankfurt are probably in a similar position, for example.
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Surely the demand is there for CPT, after all fares on this route are usually much more than equivalent sector lengths.
What is the overall effect on operating costs of having such a long down period - after all the plane might not be earning money during this time, but it isn't burning fuel either?
I recall Flyglobespan had a pop at CPT from MAN, not sure if the route ever actually started? If it did, it was only for a short season. Downtime must have been one of the reasons why Oasis didn't last long.
VS only operate CPT seasonally - so will BA be taking advantage of the reduced competition, or is it just a chance to increase yields still further?
What is the overall effect on operating costs of having such a long down period - after all the plane might not be earning money during this time, but it isn't burning fuel either?
I recall Flyglobespan had a pop at CPT from MAN, not sure if the route ever actually started? If it did, it was only for a short season. Downtime must have been one of the reasons why Oasis didn't last long.
VS only operate CPT seasonally - so will BA be taking advantage of the reduced competition, or is it just a chance to increase yields still further?
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Good analysis of LHR-CPT here, including some yield figures. Given that SAA's yield on LHR-CPT is half the yield on CPT-PER, you can understand why they are not so keen on it. Note also (as pointed out here): they are continuing to serve the LHR-CPT market, just not non-stop - they will offer connecting flights via JNB. Given the (obvious) price-sensitivity of the market, that seems a reasonable way to go.
C.
C.
Paxing All Over The World
Agreed WHBM, it is a real problem. Both BA and VS have to be parked up during the day too. Both of them have tried the immediate turn with a daylight return (or daylight out) but it is not liked for the obvious reasons.
When visiting either JNB or CPT, you can see all the big European birds lined up in the sun for the day.
The route has ALWAYS been expensive. Not just the fact of having the machine sit for 12 hours but the high demand and tight restrictions by SA govt, keep the route a cash cow.
Thread drift ...
Some of the old European carriers used to do the immediate turn, SABENA and others and I did enjoy the daylight. I recall doing a daylight from JNB when I was a teenager with my parents in a Super VC-10 and arriving at LHR to go into an hotel. My parents found it good - I could hardly sleep for excitement!
I did a daylight outbound with BA in August 2009 to JNB and the flight was only about 50%. My records show that, the last time I did a daylight return with VS was from CPT in Nov 2000.
I see that BA are currently running BA0034 as a daylight return from JNB in August on three days of the week but this seems to be for Southern Winter Season only.
Thanks for the link Cyrano.
When visiting either JNB or CPT, you can see all the big European birds lined up in the sun for the day.
The route has ALWAYS been expensive. Not just the fact of having the machine sit for 12 hours but the high demand and tight restrictions by SA govt, keep the route a cash cow.
Thread drift ...
Some of the old European carriers used to do the immediate turn, SABENA and others and I did enjoy the daylight. I recall doing a daylight from JNB when I was a teenager with my parents in a Super VC-10 and arriving at LHR to go into an hotel. My parents found it good - I could hardly sleep for excitement!
I did a daylight outbound with BA in August 2009 to JNB and the flight was only about 50%. My records show that, the last time I did a daylight return with VS was from CPT in Nov 2000.
I see that BA are currently running BA0034 as a daylight return from JNB in August on three days of the week but this seems to be for Southern Winter Season only.
Thanks for the link Cyrano.
Last edited by PAXboy; 12th Jun 2012 at 02:02.
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Interestingly, at Prime Ministers Questions today, Zac Goldsmith (Con, Richmond Park) asked the first question. Predictably, he enquired if the government was back-tracking on its opposition to LHR expansion. Tellingly, Call-Me-Dave did not rule it out. As his his wont, he didn't answer the question directly "yes" or "no", but left the door wide open.
Many in the government, at least on the Conservative side (the Libdems will never see sense on this one) appear to have "woken up and smelt the coffee" and want to do the U-turn on LHR expansion. Having done so many U-turns already, the government ought to find it easy! Maybe it's time for Call-Me-Dave to "grow a pair" and stop allowing Clegg to bully him.
Many in the government, at least on the Conservative side (the Libdems will never see sense on this one) appear to have "woken up and smelt the coffee" and want to do the U-turn on LHR expansion. Having done so many U-turns already, the government ought to find it easy! Maybe it's time for Call-Me-Dave to "grow a pair" and stop allowing Clegg to bully him.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 13th Jun 2012 at 20:56.
Something I noticed yesterday when I was at LHR was that mixed mode operations were being trialled again.
Got to say it was a lot more peaceful around the boundary areas than usual. And of course, as the operator can squeeze more flights in and out, surely its a no brainer?
Got to say it was a lot more peaceful around the boundary areas than usual. And of course, as the operator can squeeze more flights in and out, surely its a no brainer?
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Etihad will introduce B77W (8 First, 40 Business, 282 Economy) on all its LHR flights until next summer. The replacement of A346 (286 seats) means an increase of 132 seats per day.
from 1st July EY011/012 will see the B77W
from 1st January to 31st January B77W will replace A346 on EY017/018
from 1st February EY019/020 operates with 777-300ER
from 31st March all 3 flights operated by B77W
from 1st July EY011/012 will see the B77W
from 1st January to 31st January B77W will replace A346 on EY017/018
from 1st February EY019/020 operates with 777-300ER
from 31st March all 3 flights operated by B77W
Last edited by Seljuk22; 17th Jun 2012 at 11:24.
Something I noticed yesterday when I was at LHR was that mixed mode operations were being trialled again.
Got to say it was a lot more peaceful around the boundary areas than usual. And of course, as the operator can squeeze more flights in and out, surely its a no brainer?
Got to say it was a lot more peaceful around the boundary areas than usual. And of course, as the operator can squeeze more flights in and out, surely its a no brainer?
There certainly aren't supposed to be any mixed-mode trials in progress at the moment, although they restart at the beginning of next month.
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Presumably TEAM (under the "old" triggers) could be invoked if delays built up sufficiently........
I'm still awaiting the monthly report for the trials in February. Wonder if it will appear before the next one starts........
For the next round of trials, does anyone know what "aircraft will MOSTLY be routed within existing noise protection routes means" ? Is it likely to be 1 in a 100 planes will do something completely off the wall ? Or half the planes on a track will do an excursion outside the NPR over X to the north of the zone and the other half will do an excursion over Y to the south ?
I'm still awaiting the monthly report for the trials in February. Wonder if it will appear before the next one starts........
For the next round of trials, does anyone know what "aircraft will MOSTLY be routed within existing noise protection routes means" ? Is it likely to be 1 in a 100 planes will do something completely off the wall ? Or half the planes on a track will do an excursion outside the NPR over X to the north of the zone and the other half will do an excursion over Y to the south ?
My eyes (hopefully!) don't deceive me, but around 0830 yesterday morning there were arrivals on both 27L and 27R, alternating fairly evenly. And continued throughout the day, although it seemed like there were more arrivals on 27L.