HEATHROW
Join Date: Aug 2007
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It's actually got to do with spacing of aircraft by ATC. Sequencing of aircraft is difficult at the best of times but when the winds are blowing like they were today, it throws up all sorts of chaos. Difficult to understand for the SLF but I wouldn't say the wool was being pulled over your eyes. Causes many delays on a daily basis. Had a three hour slot imposed on my aircraft only last week for the same reason. It's not so much the wind on the ground thats the problem. The wind at say 6000ft can be three or four times what it is on the ground and that has an impact on aircraft groundspeeds. For example an aircraft can be downwind to land at an indicated speed of 220 knots but with a 60 knot tailwind can have a ground speed of 280 knots. At busy periods in the London Area, and not necessary just arriving at LHR (busiest airspace in the world) it is difficult to control numerous aircraft arriving at the same time.
Hope it may clear up some of the confusion. I have had this argument with ATC myself on numerous occasions and this is the very reasonable reason given.
Hope it may clear up some of the confusion. I have had this argument with ATC myself on numerous occasions and this is the very reasonable reason given.
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Lardy
If you think Heathrow is the busiest airspace in the world, I suggest you are not very well travelled
Heathrow oft touts itself as the busiest international airport in the world, possibly still true, but that is only because a high proportion of flights are international due to the nature of island Britain! People construe that to mean it is the busiest airport in the world - far from true.
As to airspace and trafiic levels, I suggest you look west towards NYC, Chicago, Atlanta, Los Angeles etc etc all with many IFR approaches to multiple airports within sometimes very constrained airspace due to terrain. Heathrow may maximise the runways it has, but is relatively simple compared to some of the above.
That is not to doubt that high winds, especially down the runway axis have dramatic effects at LHR where the runways operate at 98% capacity.
If you think Heathrow is the busiest airspace in the world, I suggest you are not very well travelled
Heathrow oft touts itself as the busiest international airport in the world, possibly still true, but that is only because a high proportion of flights are international due to the nature of island Britain! People construe that to mean it is the busiest airport in the world - far from true.
As to airspace and trafiic levels, I suggest you look west towards NYC, Chicago, Atlanta, Los Angeles etc etc all with many IFR approaches to multiple airports within sometimes very constrained airspace due to terrain. Heathrow may maximise the runways it has, but is relatively simple compared to some of the above.
That is not to doubt that high winds, especially down the runway axis have dramatic effects at LHR where the runways operate at 98% capacity.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Don't want to hijack the thread but I said London airspace not Heathrow airspace was the busiest. As for being well travelled, as someone who has been around the block I'm not going to get into mine's bigger than yours argument. 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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As some one who works in Operations near LGW, I was keeping an eye of the delays into Heathrow all day, by Lunchtime, 95% of BA's flights had ATC slot delays of over 45 minutes, most over the delays where 60-90 minutes and the longest I saw was 158 minutes!
Once aircraft get these kind of slots, there will be cancellations, there will be conjestion, departing aircraft also get delayed by high winds, which means aircraft get stuck on stands.
This situation is well outside BA's control, at least you got to London, not everyone was so lucky!
Once aircraft get these kind of slots, there will be cancellations, there will be conjestion, departing aircraft also get delayed by high winds, which means aircraft get stuck on stands.
This situation is well outside BA's control, at least you got to London, not everyone was so lucky!
I certainly appreciate the issue of airspace restrictions around London and ofcourse what weather can do especially to a two runway operation which is operating at capacity more often than not. What annoyed me was that it was obvious a delay of two hours was known to the flight deck yet operations - or perhaps even Dusseldorf airport authorities (?) decided it was in the best interests of someone - but certainly not the pax to load the aircraft with bodies and then keep them there. Its not as if though the departure area around the B gates at DUS were busy! Initially our flight crew advised we would be even towed to a remote stand as slot improvement would not happen. This did not happen as it became apparant that early checker ins for the next flight to LHR could fill the few empty seats on our BA941. Some ofcourse were given the remainder of club seats - not that that matters.
Yes, maybe lucky to get to LHR - albeit late -
Nivsy
Yes, maybe lucky to get to LHR - albeit late -
Nivsy
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Nivsy, I'm certainly no apologist for BA either but I do see the logic in boarding you on the aircraft despite the slot. All airlines would do the same. Improvements in slots are very common and in a lot of cases are actually lifted if you are in a position to tell ATC that you are fully boarded with doors closed and ready to go. There are days however when this dosen't happen and you obviously were in that situation yesterday.
If it's any consolation, it dosen't make our job any easier having you on board an aircraft for two hours either. Tempers can fray and whilst we are protected from it all in the flight deck it's normally the cabin crew who bear the brunt of it. What you have to remember is that it also means I'll be home to my family two or three hours late also, and this is certainly not something one would expect to set out to do at the start of a day.
If it's any consolation, it dosen't make our job any easier having you on board an aircraft for two hours either. Tempers can fray and whilst we are protected from it all in the flight deck it's normally the cabin crew who bear the brunt of it. What you have to remember is that it also means I'll be home to my family two or three hours late also, and this is certainly not something one would expect to set out to do at the start of a day.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: London Under EGLL(LHR) 27R ILS
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Heathrow Strikes
If this is in the wrong place Then shoot it to the correct one, firstly i found this on www.heathrowairport.com
What is going on stike and do planes even fly on X-mas day or near, I have never looked even though i have lived under the 27R ILS all my life
What do they mean?
Robbie
What is going on stike and do planes even fly on X-mas day or near, I have never looked even though i have lived under the 27R ILS all my life
Potential strike action
We regret that the threat of industrial action over the Christmas period is creating uncertainty for our passengers and their families. We're working hard to resolve this issue with the unions involved and are meeting again very soon. Our priority is to ensure that there is no disruption to our passengers and their travel plans.
We regret that the threat of industrial action over the Christmas period is creating uncertainty for our passengers and their families. We're working hard to resolve this issue with the unions involved and are meeting again very soon. Our priority is to ensure that there is no disruption to our passengers and their travel plans.
Robbie
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Heathrow Airport
Yes there are quite a lot of flights on Christmas day, mainly long haul
I can`t speak for Heathrow as I live near Manchester which has somewhere in the region of 100+ movement on 25th Dec and I`m sure Heathrow has a lot more than that
Ian
Yes there are quite a lot of flights on Christmas day, mainly long haul
I can`t speak for Heathrow as I live near Manchester which has somewhere in the region of 100+ movement on 25th Dec and I`m sure Heathrow has a lot more than that
Ian
Join Date: Mar 2002
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If they don't operate the longhaul stuff on Christmas day then the aircraft are in the wrong place and cannot operate the first "normal" schedule back, post Christmas. From memory Heathrow will do about 600? Can anybody correct that?
.4
.4
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Virgin boss attacks 'horrible' Heathrow
Heathrow Airport is ruining the experience of air travel, according to Steve Ridgway, Virgin Atlantic's chief executive. His remarks came a fortnight after the Civil Aviation Authority proposed a 15.6% rise in landing charges at the airport next year and 7.5% above inflation for the next four years after that.
Mr Ridgway stepped up the airline's war of words against Europe's busiest airport at the Aviation Club lunch, a gathering of influential industry figures. He accused the CAA of 'rewarding poor performance' and demanded the regulator get tough with Spanish-owned BAA over Heathrow.
He warned that Heathrow was damaging the British economy as a whole, saying: 'It's position as a pre-eminent airport is being challenged as never before. Heathrow is a horrible experience; it is ruining air travel. How frustrating is it, for example, for a crew who work hard on overnight flights from other parts of the world to find our passengers having to queue for two hours at immigration.'
Mr Ridgway also warned of the environmental challenge faced by aviation. But he ridiculed those who called for Heathrow's expansion to be blocked because of climate change. He said: 'If Heathrow is not allowed to expand, a passenger from Scotland flying to Shanghai would fly from Amsterdam instead. Where is the environmental benefit in that?'
However, he supported plans for an EU-wide trading emissions scheme, saying: 'For airlines, being green is no longer an optional extra.'
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Any comments? When will BAA finally realise that they run airports and not shopping centres!
Mr Ridgway stepped up the airline's war of words against Europe's busiest airport at the Aviation Club lunch, a gathering of influential industry figures. He accused the CAA of 'rewarding poor performance' and demanded the regulator get tough with Spanish-owned BAA over Heathrow.
He warned that Heathrow was damaging the British economy as a whole, saying: 'It's position as a pre-eminent airport is being challenged as never before. Heathrow is a horrible experience; it is ruining air travel. How frustrating is it, for example, for a crew who work hard on overnight flights from other parts of the world to find our passengers having to queue for two hours at immigration.'
Mr Ridgway also warned of the environmental challenge faced by aviation. But he ridiculed those who called for Heathrow's expansion to be blocked because of climate change. He said: 'If Heathrow is not allowed to expand, a passenger from Scotland flying to Shanghai would fly from Amsterdam instead. Where is the environmental benefit in that?'
However, he supported plans for an EU-wide trading emissions scheme, saying: 'For airlines, being green is no longer an optional extra.'
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Any comments? When will BAA finally realise that they run airports and not shopping centres!
As I now understand it (from the Beeb) the BAA staff strike ballot results are not in until 20 December and a statutory 7 day notice of a strike will put 27 Dec as the earliest day for labour to be withdrawn.
When I couldn't find this out a month or two ago (see my post #342 above), I booked my LHR - ORD for 15 December and decided to have an extra week in the USA for Christmas.
When I couldn't find this out a month or two ago (see my post #342 above), I booked my LHR - ORD for 15 December and decided to have an extra week in the USA for Christmas.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Computer crash at lhr?
Afternoon all
Has anyone heard of a problem affecting LHR this afternoon with regards to no aircraft being able to get slots etc. I have a colleague stuck in ZRH at present. Just wondered if anyone had some news I could pass on.
TIA.
Has anyone heard of a problem affecting LHR this afternoon with regards to no aircraft being able to get slots etc. I have a colleague stuck in ZRH at present. Just wondered if anyone had some news I could pass on.
TIA.
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From CFMU...
HIGH DELAYS AT EGLL A/D
Valid from 07 Dec 2007 to 07 Dec 2007 (released 07 Dec 2007 at 13:59:37)
FMD INFORMATION MESSAGE
=======================
.
SUBJECT: HIGH DELAYS AT EGLL A/D
.
OPERATORS AND ATC UNITS ARE ADVISED THAT
THERE ARE HIGH DELAYS FOR ALL TRAFFIC DEST LONDON EGLL A/D.
.
DELAYS ARE CAUSED BY STAND ALLOCATION SYSTEM PROBLEMS.
IT IS FORESEEN THE PROBLEM WILL LAST TILL 1600Z.
.
DELAYS ARE UPTO 150 MINUTES
.
ANY IMPROVEMENTS WILL BE PASSED ON IMMEDIATELY.
IN THE MEANTIME OPERATORS ARE STRONGLY REQUESTED NOT TO TELEPHONE
FMD HELPDESK ABOUT DELAYS WHICH ARE TYPICAL/AVERAGE.
.
CFMU OPERATIONS DIVISION - BRUSSELS
And also this...
HIGH DELAYS TFC DEST EGLL
Valid from 07 Dec 2007 to 07 Dec 2007 (released 07 Dec 2007 at 08:24:56)
HIGH DELAY INFORMATION MESSAGE
================================
.
REGULATION: EGLLA07M
.
VALID UNTIL 2000 UTC
.
OPERATORS AND ATC UNITS ARE ADVISED THAT
THERE ARE HIGH DELAYS FOR ALL TRAFFIC DEST LONDON HEATHROW
.
DELAYS CAUSED BY REDUCED CAPACITY DUE TO STRONG WINDS
.
PEAK AVERAGE DELAY IS 120 MINUTES (1600UTC)
CURRENT AVERAGE DELAY IS 60 MINUTES
AIR HOLDING IS CURRENTLY AT 12 MINUTES
.
ANY IMPROVEMENTS WILL BE PASSED ON IMMEDIATELY.
IN THE MEANTIME OPERATORS ARE STRONGLY REQUESTED NOT
TO PHONE FMD HELPDESK ABOUT DELAYS MENTIONED FOR THE
ABOVE REGULATION
.
FMD BRUSSELS
HIGH DELAYS AT EGLL A/D
Valid from 07 Dec 2007 to 07 Dec 2007 (released 07 Dec 2007 at 13:59:37)
FMD INFORMATION MESSAGE
=======================
.
SUBJECT: HIGH DELAYS AT EGLL A/D
.
OPERATORS AND ATC UNITS ARE ADVISED THAT
THERE ARE HIGH DELAYS FOR ALL TRAFFIC DEST LONDON EGLL A/D.
.
DELAYS ARE CAUSED BY STAND ALLOCATION SYSTEM PROBLEMS.
IT IS FORESEEN THE PROBLEM WILL LAST TILL 1600Z.
.
DELAYS ARE UPTO 150 MINUTES
.
ANY IMPROVEMENTS WILL BE PASSED ON IMMEDIATELY.
IN THE MEANTIME OPERATORS ARE STRONGLY REQUESTED NOT TO TELEPHONE
FMD HELPDESK ABOUT DELAYS WHICH ARE TYPICAL/AVERAGE.
.
CFMU OPERATIONS DIVISION - BRUSSELS
And also this...
HIGH DELAYS TFC DEST EGLL
Valid from 07 Dec 2007 to 07 Dec 2007 (released 07 Dec 2007 at 08:24:56)
HIGH DELAY INFORMATION MESSAGE
================================
.
REGULATION: EGLLA07M
.
VALID UNTIL 2000 UTC
.
OPERATORS AND ATC UNITS ARE ADVISED THAT
THERE ARE HIGH DELAYS FOR ALL TRAFFIC DEST LONDON HEATHROW
.
DELAYS CAUSED BY REDUCED CAPACITY DUE TO STRONG WINDS
.
PEAK AVERAGE DELAY IS 120 MINUTES (1600UTC)
CURRENT AVERAGE DELAY IS 60 MINUTES
AIR HOLDING IS CURRENTLY AT 12 MINUTES
.
ANY IMPROVEMENTS WILL BE PASSED ON IMMEDIATELY.
IN THE MEANTIME OPERATORS ARE STRONGLY REQUESTED NOT
TO PHONE FMD HELPDESK ABOUT DELAYS MENTIONED FOR THE
ABOVE REGULATION
.
FMD BRUSSELS
Join Date: Sep 2007
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It still amazes me that so many airlines still see Heathrow as the centre of the aviation universe despite the 'horrible' experience they admit it to be for many of its users; passengers and crews alike. Surely a passenger from Scotland flying to Shanghai would rather fly direct from say Glasgow or Edinburgh than travel to London or Amsterdam.
It seems to me that the whole point of higher charges is to help fulfil the Governments stated ambition of encouraging more direct services from regional airports to ease the burden on the overcrowded South-East, and to try to convince airlines that there is money to be made outside the South-East, as successful services from MAN, BHX, NCL and BRS have proved, although sadly foreign airlines seem to be quicker to see the potential of the regionals than the likes of Virgin and BA.
R5
It seems to me that the whole point of higher charges is to help fulfil the Governments stated ambition of encouraging more direct services from regional airports to ease the burden on the overcrowded South-East, and to try to convince airlines that there is money to be made outside the South-East, as successful services from MAN, BHX, NCL and BRS have proved, although sadly foreign airlines seem to be quicker to see the potential of the regionals than the likes of Virgin and BA.
R5
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Readabilty...
With respect I think you missed the point, to get to Shanghai or many other long haul destinations from EDI or GLA will always involve hubbing, there is not enough volume to merit direct, and indeed may of the regional long hauls don't last very long. However the traditional LHR hub is such a nightmare that folk in the regions will have a far better passenger experience hubbing at AMS, but why should they if LHR was run efficently?
With respect I think you missed the point, to get to Shanghai or many other long haul destinations from EDI or GLA will always involve hubbing, there is not enough volume to merit direct, and indeed may of the regional long hauls don't last very long. However the traditional LHR hub is such a nightmare that folk in the regions will have a far better passenger experience hubbing at AMS, but why should they if LHR was run efficently?