BA Franchise
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BA is not an airline but a business whose sole aim is to maximise profit. At the moment it choses to do this through flying people and cargo from A to B. Whether it will continue to do this only time will tell.
I would suggest some excellent reading in any good library business section on the history of organisations. You may find that those with longevity have switched "core functions" (Yes I do speak fluent BA).
We shall see what we shall see, every BA employee is expendable. I do not have a crystal ball but by the same token I am aware of the precarious nature of commerce.
BA might be deemed safer for flight crew than other operations but that does not offer complete protection. RE's greatest regret of his tenure is that he was unable to merge BA with a larger organisation. I wonder what that would mean for the seniority list!
Harry, (MBA, Master of British Airways)
I would suggest some excellent reading in any good library business section on the history of organisations. You may find that those with longevity have switched "core functions" (Yes I do speak fluent BA).
We shall see what we shall see, every BA employee is expendable. I do not have a crystal ball but by the same token I am aware of the precarious nature of commerce.
BA might be deemed safer for flight crew than other operations but that does not offer complete protection. RE's greatest regret of his tenure is that he was unable to merge BA with a larger organisation. I wonder what that would mean for the seniority list!
Harry, (MBA, Master of British Airways)
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You'll find equally as many if not more remain reasonably faithful to their original core function. Banking? Petrochemicals? BA may be a business, but it's business is air transport. What feasible switch of core function do you see BA able to undertake? Finance? Not with the state of ours. Aircraft leasing? Beaten to it by GECAP and ILFC. Marketing? Were good at it but it won't generate anything like enough profit. Travel agent? Insufficient profit once again. Virtual airline? Ayling experimented with it and Rods been rolling it back ever since.
Whilst a fundamental core function switch is hypothetically possible, the fact remains that BA has such vast investment in airframes, infrastructure, operations and personnel that any significant switch in the next 20 years is little more than a pipedream. The board is beginning to make noises about long haul fleet replacement. That does not sound to me like the planning of people who want to get out of the air transport business.
Whilst a fundamental core function switch is hypothetically possible, the fact remains that BA has such vast investment in airframes, infrastructure, operations and personnel that any significant switch in the next 20 years is little more than a pipedream. The board is beginning to make noises about long haul fleet replacement. That does not sound to me like the planning of people who want to get out of the air transport business.
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I suspect that both Carnage and Harry are right in differing ways. BA will go on being an airline and won’t contract-out engineering or flight ops, (just look what happens when catering is out-sourced, and not a core function). But BA will eradicate most of the current terms and conditions of the pilots contract to the point where I predict that a lot of very experienced people will be looking for an early way out of BA.
This is, of course, a very desirable outcome for BA as these long-term employees have accrued annoying employment rights and expensive pension rights in our defined benefit (as opposed to contribution) final salary pension scheme.
WW’s shopping list from the pilots -
Take the following, with BA’s probable view or response added afterwards in quotes:
1) Bidline: a system where pilots have some input into the work allocation process
“No other UK airline has this – it is a cost. We must eliminate it.”
2) Heavy crew in longhaul:
“Where possible this will be eliminated as an unnecessary cost”
3) More than legal minimum rest down route:
““Where possible this will be eliminated as an unnecessary cost”
4) Bunk rest for longhaul crews:
“Few other UK airline have this – it is a cost. We must eliminate it.”
5) Flight crew achieving less than 900 hours per rolling year as per CPA 371 absolute limits
“Anything less is an inefficiency – we must attain a roster program that gets as close as possible to this figure for all flightcrew, long and shorthaul”
6) Crew food.
“Recent events have demonstrated we can manage on a much reduced level of provision for flightcrew – this must become the norm from now on”
7) Rights to “bid” for aircraft type.
“Few if any other UK airline allows this - it is a cost. We must eliminate it.”
8) Loss of license insurance.
“Fewer and fewer UK airlines provide this – why do we? Eliminate it”
9) A final salary-related pension scheme.
“Fewer and fewer UK airlines provide this – why do we? Eliminate it”
Now I realise the scheme will have to be funded to meet its current accrued obligations to date of closure for this to be legal, but watch first for a demand for increased contributions to maintain the same level of benefits first, then closure when funding allows.
10) One pay scale.
“Other airlines have a multitude of contracts, (see Ryanair), why are we so naïve as to provide one scale?”
Of course, we don’t now because new-starters in BA are on a D scale compared to the rest of us as they join on about the worst defined contribution scheme of any UK major carrier, making them about a third cheaper than the rest of us. Look what THAT tells you about where the final salary scheme is going!
11) A seniority list and bidding and command rights tied to this.
“This hands ludicrous levels of control over our employees to the Union and denies us the chance to contain dissent by selective promotion – it WILL be eliminated”
I could go on, but that’s a pretty good flavour of what’s going to be eliminated, but gradually so there is never quite enough unified dissent to provoke a strike.
There are, of course, very good reasons why these elements of the contract arose in the first place, but these will cut no ice with WW and his new team.
Remember this phrase– “One man’s contractual entitlement is another man’s Spanish Practise”
Now many will argue that BALPA will never allow this to happen.
Err, no, BALPA is powerless and BA knows it. In the near strike of ’96 when the Danair integration (itself a picture perfect piece of pure injustice) took place there was a ballot over the creation of a B scale at LGW. This was overwhelmingly in favour of strike action – but as the deadline loomed phones at BALPA HQ rang off the wall with people saying a ballot was one thing but actually striking another. BA meanwhile had threatened to use heavyweight lawyers to sue individual pilots for loss of revenue from services they would have operated but did not due to taking strike action. And BA would have used them.
Not only that but, it can be alleged, BALPA’s top membership of the Company Council is too easy to “nobble”. Look at the last Chairman of the BACC – he quit to take up a management role!
Current incumbents were probably told before the recent non-ballot-but-questionnaire about pensions for new starters that if the result led to a strike they could kiss their own pensions goodbye. I guess they listened as most of the value is in the final few years. Result? A gobbledegook questionnaire and no defence of the final salary principle for new starters at BA.
But, crucially, the BACC KNOW that there will never be stomach for a strike at BA.
This fact encourages our flight ops management, many of whom openly hold the pilot workforce in contempt, to go on tweaking the “environmental push factors” designed to get rid of as many of us old folks with our pesky accrued employment and pension rights as possible.
Top amongst these factors has to be the Attendance Management Process, or AMP.
For the rest of BA this is a multi-stage process centred on support in returning to work. For the flightcrew scum (and yes, folks at Waterworld where such acts of genius as one-source catering supply is dreamed-up do think of us in precisely those terms – I’ve overheard them) it’s a four step tango where step one is a FORMAL interview and step FOUR is a P45.
Needless to say, our cabin crews do not participate at all and, arguably, the enforcement of the scheme as currently applied to flightcrew on them would, I predict, create an all-out strike.
The BACC chair’s assurance that the first person unjustly sacked by the AMP will lead to a ballot is, in the light of the above, one can allege, tissue thin. As for the Director of Flight Ops assuring us that this is just an administrative process – how laughable! Its like a fox announcing to the chicken shed that he’s turned vegetarian.
BA has a clear-cut policy in dealing with BALPA. It is to demonstrate to its BA pilot members that BALPA is neutered in the industrial arena. It might as well become a mutual society providing legal assistance and financial advice to members and confine itself to that for all the good it can do otherwise.
Look at all the examples where BA succeeds and BALPA fails.
Bunked rest for the B777 fleet – err, no.
Bus routes on the back to backs – err no.
Preservation of one contract for BA flightcrew – err, no the LGW guys get Carmen rostering, the Regions give concessions to “fund” the introduction of new aircraft, and BA still outsource it, (how management must have laughed – “Suckerrrrs”!), then proceed to screw the out-sourced company to the ground, (familiar huh? Gate Gourmet please note!).
Preservation of a broadly common pay scale – err, no. New starters get a lousy deal on a DC scheme, BA say they may negotiate and BALPA puts up with a promise, as usual! COME-ON GUYS! You’ve been had -AGAIN!!
A fair AMP for all in the company – err, no: Flightcrew get a shortcut to redundancy, cabin crew get nothing imposed at all and the rest of BA indulges in a multi-stage tea and biscuits care group.
And so on and on and Ariston. BA has a self-proclaimed policy to be the meanest player on the block and it WILL get there, sooner than we think.
This is, of course, a very desirable outcome for BA as these long-term employees have accrued annoying employment rights and expensive pension rights in our defined benefit (as opposed to contribution) final salary pension scheme.
WW’s shopping list from the pilots -
Take the following, with BA’s probable view or response added afterwards in quotes:
1) Bidline: a system where pilots have some input into the work allocation process
“No other UK airline has this – it is a cost. We must eliminate it.”
2) Heavy crew in longhaul:
“Where possible this will be eliminated as an unnecessary cost”
3) More than legal minimum rest down route:
““Where possible this will be eliminated as an unnecessary cost”
4) Bunk rest for longhaul crews:
“Few other UK airline have this – it is a cost. We must eliminate it.”
5) Flight crew achieving less than 900 hours per rolling year as per CPA 371 absolute limits
“Anything less is an inefficiency – we must attain a roster program that gets as close as possible to this figure for all flightcrew, long and shorthaul”
6) Crew food.
“Recent events have demonstrated we can manage on a much reduced level of provision for flightcrew – this must become the norm from now on”
7) Rights to “bid” for aircraft type.
“Few if any other UK airline allows this - it is a cost. We must eliminate it.”
8) Loss of license insurance.
“Fewer and fewer UK airlines provide this – why do we? Eliminate it”
9) A final salary-related pension scheme.
“Fewer and fewer UK airlines provide this – why do we? Eliminate it”
Now I realise the scheme will have to be funded to meet its current accrued obligations to date of closure for this to be legal, but watch first for a demand for increased contributions to maintain the same level of benefits first, then closure when funding allows.
10) One pay scale.
“Other airlines have a multitude of contracts, (see Ryanair), why are we so naïve as to provide one scale?”
Of course, we don’t now because new-starters in BA are on a D scale compared to the rest of us as they join on about the worst defined contribution scheme of any UK major carrier, making them about a third cheaper than the rest of us. Look what THAT tells you about where the final salary scheme is going!
11) A seniority list and bidding and command rights tied to this.
“This hands ludicrous levels of control over our employees to the Union and denies us the chance to contain dissent by selective promotion – it WILL be eliminated”
I could go on, but that’s a pretty good flavour of what’s going to be eliminated, but gradually so there is never quite enough unified dissent to provoke a strike.
There are, of course, very good reasons why these elements of the contract arose in the first place, but these will cut no ice with WW and his new team.
Remember this phrase– “One man’s contractual entitlement is another man’s Spanish Practise”
Now many will argue that BALPA will never allow this to happen.
Err, no, BALPA is powerless and BA knows it. In the near strike of ’96 when the Danair integration (itself a picture perfect piece of pure injustice) took place there was a ballot over the creation of a B scale at LGW. This was overwhelmingly in favour of strike action – but as the deadline loomed phones at BALPA HQ rang off the wall with people saying a ballot was one thing but actually striking another. BA meanwhile had threatened to use heavyweight lawyers to sue individual pilots for loss of revenue from services they would have operated but did not due to taking strike action. And BA would have used them.
Not only that but, it can be alleged, BALPA’s top membership of the Company Council is too easy to “nobble”. Look at the last Chairman of the BACC – he quit to take up a management role!
Current incumbents were probably told before the recent non-ballot-but-questionnaire about pensions for new starters that if the result led to a strike they could kiss their own pensions goodbye. I guess they listened as most of the value is in the final few years. Result? A gobbledegook questionnaire and no defence of the final salary principle for new starters at BA.
But, crucially, the BACC KNOW that there will never be stomach for a strike at BA.
This fact encourages our flight ops management, many of whom openly hold the pilot workforce in contempt, to go on tweaking the “environmental push factors” designed to get rid of as many of us old folks with our pesky accrued employment and pension rights as possible.
Top amongst these factors has to be the Attendance Management Process, or AMP.
For the rest of BA this is a multi-stage process centred on support in returning to work. For the flightcrew scum (and yes, folks at Waterworld where such acts of genius as one-source catering supply is dreamed-up do think of us in precisely those terms – I’ve overheard them) it’s a four step tango where step one is a FORMAL interview and step FOUR is a P45.
Needless to say, our cabin crews do not participate at all and, arguably, the enforcement of the scheme as currently applied to flightcrew on them would, I predict, create an all-out strike.
The BACC chair’s assurance that the first person unjustly sacked by the AMP will lead to a ballot is, in the light of the above, one can allege, tissue thin. As for the Director of Flight Ops assuring us that this is just an administrative process – how laughable! Its like a fox announcing to the chicken shed that he’s turned vegetarian.
BA has a clear-cut policy in dealing with BALPA. It is to demonstrate to its BA pilot members that BALPA is neutered in the industrial arena. It might as well become a mutual society providing legal assistance and financial advice to members and confine itself to that for all the good it can do otherwise.
Look at all the examples where BA succeeds and BALPA fails.
Bunked rest for the B777 fleet – err, no.
Bus routes on the back to backs – err no.
Preservation of one contract for BA flightcrew – err, no the LGW guys get Carmen rostering, the Regions give concessions to “fund” the introduction of new aircraft, and BA still outsource it, (how management must have laughed – “Suckerrrrs”!), then proceed to screw the out-sourced company to the ground, (familiar huh? Gate Gourmet please note!).
Preservation of a broadly common pay scale – err, no. New starters get a lousy deal on a DC scheme, BA say they may negotiate and BALPA puts up with a promise, as usual! COME-ON GUYS! You’ve been had -AGAIN!!
A fair AMP for all in the company – err, no: Flightcrew get a shortcut to redundancy, cabin crew get nothing imposed at all and the rest of BA indulges in a multi-stage tea and biscuits care group.
And so on and on and Ariston. BA has a self-proclaimed policy to be the meanest player on the block and it WILL get there, sooner than we think.
Last edited by ShortfinalFred; 1st Sep 2005 at 11:18.
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crucially, the BACC KNOW that there will never be stomach for a strike at BA.
I think there is something of a tendency to be inward looking here, particularly as this is a pilots forum. Sure there are savings to be made in those proposals, but consider the size of the savings compared to the cost of the industrial unrest. Flight Ops is a minnow in BA, with a small budget in comparison to the behemoth departments in Mike Streets empire. BA could save vastly more with less unrest by simply making small economies in those departments. Why would they choose to seek confrontation by attempting to tear up the agreements of the pilots when there are much, much easier savings to be made?
[quote]but as the deadline loomed phones at BALPA HQ rang off the wall with people saying a ballot was one thing but actually striking another. BA meanwhile had threatened to use heavyweight lawyers to sue individual pilots for loss of revenue from services they would have operated but did not due to taking strike action. And BA would have used them.[./quote]
But they can't use them now. Employment law has changed. Legal industrial action now affords more protection to employees.
For the flightcrew scum (and yes, folks at Waterworld....... do think of us in precisely those terms – I’ve overheard them)
I predict that a lot of very experienced people will be looking for an early way out of BA.
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I hope so Carnage, I really do, but I've seen little evidence of it yet. BALPA are forever on the back foot, valiant efforts notwithstanding, and I think BA know this.
The savings BA can make from us are still substantial and I perceive that we will be targetted for them as a relatively easy nut to crack.
Opinions in Waterworld about us vary, but I have heard plenty, (from in flight services I admit), of the derogatory variety.
In my humble opinion the levels of productivity being given since the new pay deal, (rumoured recent boast of flight manager - "we've seen a 12% increase in productivity for next to nothing on our part"), are nearly unsustainable in the long term.
People need a life at home away from work, and perhaps the recent Virgin 750 hour a year deal acknowledges that.
Of all UK airlines BA has perhaps the most consistent very high levels of time away from home, and at these work levels a toll is being extracted on human relationships that can't be sustained in the longer term.
I predict that before long BALPA will be pushed by its membership into seeking substantial work level reductions, even at the cost of lower pay.
You cant spend money in a graveyard, and divorce tends to be expensive both emotionally and financially.
However high some areas of Waterworld's perceptions of us are, (and I'd love concrete evidence of this), the fact remains that flight ops mangement hold us in near open contempt, and the result is a new level of brazen dissent on such as the BALPA forum. There is a level of antipathy I have never seen before.
We shall see, but I predict grim times ahead for us, and I still doubt the combined resolve of the BA pilot workforce and so, at heart, does the BACC, I suspect.
I'll be staying and fighting until the battle is demonstrably lost, fwiw.
The savings BA can make from us are still substantial and I perceive that we will be targetted for them as a relatively easy nut to crack.
Opinions in Waterworld about us vary, but I have heard plenty, (from in flight services I admit), of the derogatory variety.
In my humble opinion the levels of productivity being given since the new pay deal, (rumoured recent boast of flight manager - "we've seen a 12% increase in productivity for next to nothing on our part"), are nearly unsustainable in the long term.
People need a life at home away from work, and perhaps the recent Virgin 750 hour a year deal acknowledges that.
Of all UK airlines BA has perhaps the most consistent very high levels of time away from home, and at these work levels a toll is being extracted on human relationships that can't be sustained in the longer term.
I predict that before long BALPA will be pushed by its membership into seeking substantial work level reductions, even at the cost of lower pay.
You cant spend money in a graveyard, and divorce tends to be expensive both emotionally and financially.
However high some areas of Waterworld's perceptions of us are, (and I'd love concrete evidence of this), the fact remains that flight ops mangement hold us in near open contempt, and the result is a new level of brazen dissent on such as the BALPA forum. There is a level of antipathy I have never seen before.
We shall see, but I predict grim times ahead for us, and I still doubt the combined resolve of the BA pilot workforce and so, at heart, does the BACC, I suspect.
I'll be staying and fighting until the battle is demonstrably lost, fwiw.
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GB Airways will not take over the Shorthaul Routes out of LGW , it doesnt have the resources and the crew wont allow it to happen. BMED may get some new routes as well as GB , but you never know with BA and WW has an ALL NEW AGENDA of his own so watch this space ...
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You bet he has, and I have outlined just a part of what it will be for the current BA LHR crew. The regions and LGW have borne the brunt already, with more to come one suspects, LHR now, and a new cack-handed "initiative" to be rolled out, too.
We've had years of this garbage - it would be better to concentrate on getting the basics sorted before embarking on some wild re-branding exercise.
Good luck to the long suffering and decent folk of BACX and all its predecessors if BA RED is the future for you. Ditto LGW and everywhere else its planned.
WW will tear flightcrew contracts back to below bare bones basics. I predict people leaving in dispair, especially in the regions, BACX and LGW, at which point our "leadership team" will order triples on the house and conclude that they've finally got it "about right".
What a crock.
We've had years of this garbage - it would be better to concentrate on getting the basics sorted before embarking on some wild re-branding exercise.
Good luck to the long suffering and decent folk of BACX and all its predecessors if BA RED is the future for you. Ditto LGW and everywhere else its planned.
WW will tear flightcrew contracts back to below bare bones basics. I predict people leaving in dispair, especially in the regions, BACX and LGW, at which point our "leadership team" will order triples on the house and conclude that they've finally got it "about right".
What a crock.
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Just a small point from ground staff; Seeing all those customs and practices FC do or have enjoyed it is little wonder that ground staff at BA are revolting. Couple this with CC and it paints a depressing picture. Ground Staff as you probably are aware enjoy similiar scams and WW has a huge task. I feel that with the fast approach of T5 he does not have the time left to make many changes. If it is like T4 it will be a terrible cock-up initially and the last think BA will need is industrial problems before, during or after.
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Have to agree that WW will focus on the working agreements BA have and will indeed rip them apart -- just look what happended to the Lingus guys when he took over -- he's a pilot and knows a bit about pilots than Skippy.
What is interesting is Carnage Matey's reply -- A typical Nigel attitude -- unwillingly to accept any changes for the good of the company -- Very narrow minded !
What is interesting is Carnage Matey's reply -- A typical Nigel attitude -- unwillingly to accept any changes for the good of the company -- Very narrow minded !
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Seeing all those customs and practices FC do or have enjoyed it is little wonder that ground staff at BA are revolting
What is interesting is Carnage Matey's reply -- A typical Nigel attitude -- unwillingly to accept any changes for the good of the company
Is it just me or do the last two posts reek of petty jealousies?
Last edited by Carnage Matey!; 3rd Sep 2005 at 10:51.
/This is going to make me unpopular/
Airline Pilots are well paid. In the larger carriers, they are perhaps overpaid. Although not aware of the details, I guess Captain Nigel has a final salary pension scheme (that the company has been unable to fully fund), well over the average 30 days holiday accorded to senior Directors in business, access to free hotac and food whilst on duty or away from base, in decent quality hotels (you would be surprised how many directors are expected to stay at budget hotels these days), life insurance, sick pay, loss of licence insurance, free parking at work, travel expenses, other travel benefits, low working hours, etc.
Now put a proper value on that lot - my guess it comes out well in excess of £100k. Then look at equivalent earners elsewhere. At the very least they will work longer hours and have less job security.
So please don't complain too much.
/Still unpopular/
Airline Pilots are well paid. In the larger carriers, they are perhaps overpaid. Although not aware of the details, I guess Captain Nigel has a final salary pension scheme (that the company has been unable to fully fund), well over the average 30 days holiday accorded to senior Directors in business, access to free hotac and food whilst on duty or away from base, in decent quality hotels (you would be surprised how many directors are expected to stay at budget hotels these days), life insurance, sick pay, loss of licence insurance, free parking at work, travel expenses, other travel benefits, low working hours, etc.
Now put a proper value on that lot - my guess it comes out well in excess of £100k. Then look at equivalent earners elsewhere. At the very least they will work longer hours and have less job security.
So please don't complain too much.
/Still unpopular/
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Airline Pilots are well paid
Some are some aren't. Go look at the Jet2 thread.
In the larger carriers, they are perhaps overpaid.
Do you have any evidence to support this, or is it just your personal opinion?
Although not aware of the details
Quite evidently from what you subsequently post
Captain Nigel has a final salary pension scheme (that the company has been unable to fully fund
Just like 34000 other BA employees. Would you like to show me a fully funded final salary pension scheme in the UK?
well over the average 30 days holiday accorded to senior Directors in business
No. 30 days holiday exactly if you discount weekends, and no public holidays either.
access to free hotac and food whilst on duty or away from base
You expect any airlines crew to pay for hotac whilst downroute? I think i must have missed the Aga on board to prepare my own meals as well. As for free food away from base? Not a chance.
in decent quality hotels
You know of a good 3 star budget hotel in Mumbai that complies with western standards of safety? How about Lagos? Can you get food there at 00:30 local time before your 1:30am pick up?
you would be surprised how many directors are expected to stay at budget hotels these days
Yes. Very very few. Even the middle and low level managers I know at major firms stay in decent hotels. If the company want them to travel then thats the price they pay.
life insurance
Fairly standard in the UK.
sick pay
Ditto
loss of licence insurance
Underwritten by BA, but with a personal reqjuirement to top it up from our own pockets due to the precarious nature of the beast.
free parking at work
Now you're showing you're metrocentric background. I'm guessing you've never worked outside a city where parking is free?
travel expenses
No.
other travel benefits
Alongside all other airline staff and travel agents. I estimate staff travel saved me about £400 last year.
low working hours,
Remind of that when its 4 am on a 13.5 hour sector and I'll have been awake for 24 hours when I land the aircraft. Are you awake for 24 hours on a regular basis?
Now put a proper value on that lot - my guess it comes out well in excess of £100k
And it really would be a guess because you've put an awful lot of value on those intangibles. Still as Captain Nigel it would only take me about 12+ years plus a minimum of a couple of years training to get there, not like my investment manager chums who are now earning in excess of £100K less than a decade after graduating.
I do. Many of my contemporaries do earn more and indeed they do work longer hours and have less job security. I've discussed it with them many times. However none of them have ever genuinely been frightened or feared for their lives at work. None of them have responsibility for countless lives at any stage. None are required to make instant decisions that could cost a 9 figure sum. None of them could lose their career for ever, overnight, due to a medical condition (I'd trade job security for career security anyday). If it all goes badly wrong at the office and things get just too difficult, they can walk away, and have done. It's hard to do that when things go wrong at 39000 feet.
Some are some aren't. Go look at the Jet2 thread.
In the larger carriers, they are perhaps overpaid.
Do you have any evidence to support this, or is it just your personal opinion?
Although not aware of the details
Quite evidently from what you subsequently post
Captain Nigel has a final salary pension scheme (that the company has been unable to fully fund
Just like 34000 other BA employees. Would you like to show me a fully funded final salary pension scheme in the UK?
well over the average 30 days holiday accorded to senior Directors in business
No. 30 days holiday exactly if you discount weekends, and no public holidays either.
access to free hotac and food whilst on duty or away from base
You expect any airlines crew to pay for hotac whilst downroute? I think i must have missed the Aga on board to prepare my own meals as well. As for free food away from base? Not a chance.
in decent quality hotels
You know of a good 3 star budget hotel in Mumbai that complies with western standards of safety? How about Lagos? Can you get food there at 00:30 local time before your 1:30am pick up?
you would be surprised how many directors are expected to stay at budget hotels these days
Yes. Very very few. Even the middle and low level managers I know at major firms stay in decent hotels. If the company want them to travel then thats the price they pay.
life insurance
Fairly standard in the UK.
sick pay
Ditto
loss of licence insurance
Underwritten by BA, but with a personal reqjuirement to top it up from our own pockets due to the precarious nature of the beast.
free parking at work
Now you're showing you're metrocentric background. I'm guessing you've never worked outside a city where parking is free?
travel expenses
No.
other travel benefits
Alongside all other airline staff and travel agents. I estimate staff travel saved me about £400 last year.
low working hours,
Remind of that when its 4 am on a 13.5 hour sector and I'll have been awake for 24 hours when I land the aircraft. Are you awake for 24 hours on a regular basis?
Now put a proper value on that lot - my guess it comes out well in excess of £100k
And it really would be a guess because you've put an awful lot of value on those intangibles. Still as Captain Nigel it would only take me about 12+ years plus a minimum of a couple of years training to get there, not like my investment manager chums who are now earning in excess of £100K less than a decade after graduating.
Then look at equivalent earners elsewhere. At the very least they will work longer hours and have less job security.
Last edited by Carnage Matey!; 3rd Sep 2005 at 11:32.
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Well HZ123 does it again, with total disregard for what is actually happening............. got out of your windowless building in brain crank recently??
Let’s look at Spanish practices amongst our colleagues who see fit to just down tools and walk out on an illegal strike (sack the scum that’s what I would do)
Bus drivers who do 4 trips a day to T4 and back for £32000 pa plus overtime, of course the trick is to make sure you get back to Compass with less than 1 hour of your shift to go, this can be achieved by: waiting at the aircraft until its been pushed back claiming you were looking after the bags, or sitting in a lay bye reading the paper.
Or let’s look at our illustrious check in staff who down tools (illegally again) the minute it gets to tough...................... you know just like the time they had to swipe in and out........... Just like all the other staff who works for large PLC's.( This issue is still not sorted out)
Of course we could look at Cabin Crew and their disruption agreement, kindly put in place recently because of the illegal strike (see above) hosed down with money yet again even though they had quite literally nothing to do for 14 days(try 2 shifts of 4 hours rest on an SFO)
Pilots, well most of the silly industrial stuff we had has gone........... Read my lips gone! That’s why flight ops management are constantly seen harping about how they have got 12% increase in productivity at nil cost, how the director flight ops boast the fact that he is achieving now with 3000 pilots what he was with 3500 pilots only a couple of years ago. Still wouldn’t expect anyone who drives a desk to be Sharpe enough to sort that one out.
Let’s look at Spanish practices amongst our colleagues who see fit to just down tools and walk out on an illegal strike (sack the scum that’s what I would do)
Bus drivers who do 4 trips a day to T4 and back for £32000 pa plus overtime, of course the trick is to make sure you get back to Compass with less than 1 hour of your shift to go, this can be achieved by: waiting at the aircraft until its been pushed back claiming you were looking after the bags, or sitting in a lay bye reading the paper.
Or let’s look at our illustrious check in staff who down tools (illegally again) the minute it gets to tough...................... you know just like the time they had to swipe in and out........... Just like all the other staff who works for large PLC's.( This issue is still not sorted out)
Of course we could look at Cabin Crew and their disruption agreement, kindly put in place recently because of the illegal strike (see above) hosed down with money yet again even though they had quite literally nothing to do for 14 days(try 2 shifts of 4 hours rest on an SFO)
Pilots, well most of the silly industrial stuff we had has gone........... Read my lips gone! That’s why flight ops management are constantly seen harping about how they have got 12% increase in productivity at nil cost, how the director flight ops boast the fact that he is achieving now with 3000 pilots what he was with 3500 pilots only a couple of years ago. Still wouldn’t expect anyone who drives a desk to be Sharpe enough to sort that one out.
Join Date: Nov 2004
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I'm right back with Carnage on this one now.
LGS6753, whoever you are mate, you are not current flightcrew for sure and are pushing the "lets screw flightcrew again agenda".
Might not be such a hot plan.
A little bird says that five would-be direct entry pilots to BA longhaul from BMI just refused en-bloc and went to Virgin instead.
Why would they do that, I wonder?
Err, better DC pension scheme, (if thats what has to pertain these days), better rostering (750 hours a year - a chance for a life at home, not 900 on a rolling calendar year like most of our longhaul guys and girls now), better relations with cabin crew down route, none of the mind-blowing deceits that our groundstaff now practise (and dont you dare call bidline a spanish practise - this airline spends more time away from home than any other in the UK - a very small input into when that time is rostered is not a deceit on BA - unlike bus drivers hiding in laybyes, time theft, etc etc) and so on.
I guess thats why all the ex-forces guys are looking to go to Virgin too.
Hey, guess what! Some of our junior established P2's on longhaul are looking at their options too. They dont think NAPS will last, know BA flight ops managament have turned into a bunch of hypocritical bullies by and large and dispair of the sour atmosphere generated by so many CSD's with the cabin crew (honourable exceptions though) down route, and see the promotion pipeline corroding to stagnation in BA. Suddenly Virgin and others look more attractive by the day.
Well done flight ops "leadership team" (poor joke) you've got the remuneration package 'about right' and the AMP just seals the deal, doesn't it PoD!?
LGS6753, whoever you are mate, you are not current flightcrew for sure and are pushing the "lets screw flightcrew again agenda".
Might not be such a hot plan.
A little bird says that five would-be direct entry pilots to BA longhaul from BMI just refused en-bloc and went to Virgin instead.
Why would they do that, I wonder?
Err, better DC pension scheme, (if thats what has to pertain these days), better rostering (750 hours a year - a chance for a life at home, not 900 on a rolling calendar year like most of our longhaul guys and girls now), better relations with cabin crew down route, none of the mind-blowing deceits that our groundstaff now practise (and dont you dare call bidline a spanish practise - this airline spends more time away from home than any other in the UK - a very small input into when that time is rostered is not a deceit on BA - unlike bus drivers hiding in laybyes, time theft, etc etc) and so on.
I guess thats why all the ex-forces guys are looking to go to Virgin too.
Hey, guess what! Some of our junior established P2's on longhaul are looking at their options too. They dont think NAPS will last, know BA flight ops managament have turned into a bunch of hypocritical bullies by and large and dispair of the sour atmosphere generated by so many CSD's with the cabin crew (honourable exceptions though) down route, and see the promotion pipeline corroding to stagnation in BA. Suddenly Virgin and others look more attractive by the day.
Well done flight ops "leadership team" (poor joke) you've got the remuneration package 'about right' and the AMP just seals the deal, doesn't it PoD!?
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Fred,
Believe it or not, even the former Brymon MP scheme (now the BACX scheme) has higher contribution rates than the new BA MP scheme and they are based on full salary too.
Maybe these people heading for Virgin are hearing just how much some of our very long serving senior trainers wil be retiring on. I would guess at between 5 and 10% of pod's likely pot and considerably less than than a GG workers salary.
Start on flying insructor salary, finish on flying instructor salary.
At least theres a chance of a senior citizen job at B+Q.
Believe it or not, even the former Brymon MP scheme (now the BACX scheme) has higher contribution rates than the new BA MP scheme and they are based on full salary too.
Maybe these people heading for Virgin are hearing just how much some of our very long serving senior trainers wil be retiring on. I would guess at between 5 and 10% of pod's likely pot and considerably less than than a GG workers salary.
Start on flying insructor salary, finish on flying instructor salary.
At least theres a chance of a senior citizen job at B+Q.
