DHL rejects Belgian demand for less noisy planes (Merged)
Oops pardon me
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DHL Brussels hub future in the balance
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Quote:
Neighborhood committees around Zaventem international airport on the northern edge of Brussels claim the noise from more night flights would balloon the state's medical bill by euro250 million (US$304 million) annually and lead to hundreds of deaths through depression and heart disease.
Unquote.
Hundreds of deads through depression? And heart disease? Yes, quite. And pigs really can fly too!
Back to reality.
DHL will establish a superhub in LEJ; that is not even a "if". Vatry is a smokecover. DHL is owned by a German company. The German government will go to great lenghts to create more jobs in the east. The EU will offer support for development in Eastern Germany under the developing regions programme. The German government will foot the bill for a second runway in LEJ (with EU support of course), as well as road and rail links. It is even rumoured that the German government will pay the re-location costs. It is as close to a no-brainer as possible.
The question is whether BRU will remain as the DHL headquaters, and whether BRU or CGN hub will be either closed or scaled down. LEJ will be conviently placed for the biggest potential growth market in Europe, namely the new EU countries. BRU and CGN are only 200 km apart, and with a true superhub in continental Europe, both will not be needed to cover for each other in times of operational difficulty (i.e. when the BRU workers go on strike).
My guess is, that if the Belgian government don't send a positive answer right soon, DHL is gone. However, if DHL management goes on record saying something like "political decisions have made future expansion impossible and we are therefore forced to review or options" then all hell breaks loose with the unions and strikes are inevitable. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Someday they'll have to take the figth, my guess is that they'll hold it off as long as possible and ideally (from their point of view) not before LEJ has opened.
I would not be surprised if, back in the post tower in Bonn, there is a project going under the title of "LEJ 2010".
By the way, DHL and UPS have a commitment from CGN airport that no night curfews will be introduced before 2015. See the picture?
Neighborhood committees around Zaventem international airport on the northern edge of Brussels claim the noise from more night flights would balloon the state's medical bill by euro250 million (US$304 million) annually and lead to hundreds of deaths through depression and heart disease.
Unquote.
Hundreds of deads through depression? And heart disease? Yes, quite. And pigs really can fly too!
Back to reality.
DHL will establish a superhub in LEJ; that is not even a "if". Vatry is a smokecover. DHL is owned by a German company. The German government will go to great lenghts to create more jobs in the east. The EU will offer support for development in Eastern Germany under the developing regions programme. The German government will foot the bill for a second runway in LEJ (with EU support of course), as well as road and rail links. It is even rumoured that the German government will pay the re-location costs. It is as close to a no-brainer as possible.
The question is whether BRU will remain as the DHL headquaters, and whether BRU or CGN hub will be either closed or scaled down. LEJ will be conviently placed for the biggest potential growth market in Europe, namely the new EU countries. BRU and CGN are only 200 km apart, and with a true superhub in continental Europe, both will not be needed to cover for each other in times of operational difficulty (i.e. when the BRU workers go on strike).
My guess is, that if the Belgian government don't send a positive answer right soon, DHL is gone. However, if DHL management goes on record saying something like "political decisions have made future expansion impossible and we are therefore forced to review or options" then all hell breaks loose with the unions and strikes are inevitable. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Someday they'll have to take the figth, my guess is that they'll hold it off as long as possible and ideally (from their point of view) not before LEJ has opened.
I would not be surprised if, back in the post tower in Bonn, there is a project going under the title of "LEJ 2010".
By the way, DHL and UPS have a commitment from CGN airport that no night curfews will be introduced before 2015. See the picture?
Still Trampin' the Ramp
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FFF,
Wouldn't put all your money on LEJ! Just because your German is better than your French, don't go wishful thinking.
RT
tsk tsk
Wouldn't put all your money on LEJ! Just because your German is better than your French, don't go wishful thinking.
RT
tsk tsk
Last edited by CR2; 24th Sep 2004 at 13:04.
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I'd like to get the opinion of the flying guys.
I am living in a suburb of Brussels which is overflown by DHL at night and I'll tell ya, this is a p... in the a.. You wouldn't want to live here. I came here before them BTW. Plus, all the experts say it is damned crazy and insane to let planes take off from runway 20. It looks like they all need an air crash on this densely populated area before they start thinking. Just can't understand how the flying crews can accept ATC instructions forcing them to use this rwy.
ps. I wanted to be one of you but life decided otherwise. So I am taking any professional opportunity to be involved with aviation.
I am living in a suburb of Brussels which is overflown by DHL at night and I'll tell ya, this is a p... in the a.. You wouldn't want to live here. I came here before them BTW. Plus, all the experts say it is damned crazy and insane to let planes take off from runway 20. It looks like they all need an air crash on this densely populated area before they start thinking. Just can't understand how the flying crews can accept ATC instructions forcing them to use this rwy.
ps. I wanted to be one of you but life decided otherwise. So I am taking any professional opportunity to be involved with aviation.
Moon Walker
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I have used Runway 20 a lot over the years ,so i must be crazy!!
Cant see whats wrong with the runway ,but experts are never wrong!!!!
All i can say is ,Leipzig here we come!
Neil
Cant see whats wrong with the runway ,but experts are never wrong!!!!
All i can say is ,Leipzig here we come!
Neil
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Yup we'll take our 18000 jobs and the billion euros a year every year we will be putting into the Belgian economy by 2012 and nob off to Leipzig. I'm sure the german chancelor will find a use for the 200 million or so euros we pay in tax each year.
Perhaps the Pain in your A*** could be cured by one of the many hospital beds funded out of the tax we pay. Or alternatively you could drive out to a leisure centre on one of the well lit motorways paid for out of the tax we pay.
Take a walk in one of Brussels many parks paid for ....wait for it, by the tax we and other companies and individuals pay. Life is a balance. If you want ammenities and the jobs, schools , roads, sewers that modern living demands then you have got to make sacrifices.
Tough call?
I dont think so.
We have spent well over a billion euros buying newer quieter aircraft over the last 3 years mainly to satisfy BRU residents. Now due to political infighting in the Belgian govt you want more. Get a grip. Aircraft noise overall in the industry is down something like 75% in the last 20 years as older types are phased out. We are meeting our side of the bargin.
Perhaps the Pain in your A*** could be cured by one of the many hospital beds funded out of the tax we pay. Or alternatively you could drive out to a leisure centre on one of the well lit motorways paid for out of the tax we pay.
Take a walk in one of Brussels many parks paid for ....wait for it, by the tax we and other companies and individuals pay. Life is a balance. If you want ammenities and the jobs, schools , roads, sewers that modern living demands then you have got to make sacrifices.
Tough call?
I dont think so.
We have spent well over a billion euros buying newer quieter aircraft over the last 3 years mainly to satisfy BRU residents. Now due to political infighting in the Belgian govt you want more. Get a grip. Aircraft noise overall in the industry is down something like 75% in the last 20 years as older types are phased out. We are meeting our side of the bargin.
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I just can't repeat enough, pls do go to Leipzig.
If you are writing from UK Midlands, you don't understand the situation on the ground. Just as an example, the part of BRU I am living in is ONLY getting the trouble of your night flights, not even a... single... job.
On another of your points, you claim using less noisy acft? Well, DHL required 16 mvts for the MD-11, which is up 500% and this is one of the noisiest acft flying today. And I'll tell you - at night (4AM) every acft is noisy. Just come and experience by yourself.
I'll stop here but pls do not hesitate to go to Lepizig. At least we'll be able to enjoy our nights and the greenery not spoiled by taking off acft.
If you are writing from UK Midlands, you don't understand the situation on the ground. Just as an example, the part of BRU I am living in is ONLY getting the trouble of your night flights, not even a... single... job.
On another of your points, you claim using less noisy acft? Well, DHL required 16 mvts for the MD-11, which is up 500% and this is one of the noisiest acft flying today. And I'll tell you - at night (4AM) every acft is noisy. Just come and experience by yourself.
I'll stop here but pls do not hesitate to go to Lepizig. At least we'll be able to enjoy our nights and the greenery not spoiled by taking off acft.
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ONLY getting the trouble of your night flights, not even a... single... job
As for your posts on Airports and routes
DHL have been at BRU for over 15 years. When i started 6 years ago we were using 20 at night for take offs. Since then we have phased out the 727 which is a very very noisy aeroplane . We have reduced the number of A300 movements by 15%. The only reason the MD-11 is
one of the noisiest acft flying today
Even then noise levels are likely to come down by a further 40% over the next 15 years throughout Europe as older marginaly stage 3 aircraft (thats the A300-B4 to you) and hushkitted types reach the end of their service life and are replaced by more modern aircraft.
You really should not listen to everything politicians tell you.
DHL Brussels future
I am all with Daysleeper on that and some more. DHL creates much needed jobs for Brussels Region Capital and the Flemish Region.
tgdxb Daysleeper is right in regards to jobs creating jobs. Maybe you would love European Institutions to flee Brussels as to get rid of the traffic and the trouble they give you.
I would seriously suggest the residents that are annoyed about the operation to spent some time realizing how important is this operation for the two regions, how it keeps a lot of people out of the dole... Furthermore instead of spending euros on buying Stella I would recommend try put some soundproofing in your home.
I wish we have a DHL or UPS European hub in our large and empty local airport....
Rwy in Sight
I love aircraft noise
tgdxb Daysleeper is right in regards to jobs creating jobs. Maybe you would love European Institutions to flee Brussels as to get rid of the traffic and the trouble they give you.
I would seriously suggest the residents that are annoyed about the operation to spent some time realizing how important is this operation for the two regions, how it keeps a lot of people out of the dole... Furthermore instead of spending euros on buying Stella I would recommend try put some soundproofing in your home.
I wish we have a DHL or UPS European hub in our large and empty local airport....
Rwy in Sight
I love aircraft noise
Moon Walker
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and this is one of the noisiest acft flying today
There are not many a/c on the market at the moment who can carry the same cargo as this a/c!
The 747-400 can ,but makes more noise!
But dont worry tgdxb ,Vlaanderen has been suporting the Wallonië economy for years ,and yall dont have to worry the way the goverment works the money will keep on comming your way!!
Neil
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in my view quite a few mistakes & misunderstandings in the different postings:
- DHL is veyr much Flemish oriented. Therefore I would say, those benefitting most from it should bear the annoyance.
- Why not go to Leipzig? I am sure the very ecological German gvt will welcome it.
- I do not think we need DHL at Brussels airport
- We do not need the sort of jobs offered by DHL are good for the quality of family life of its (night shift) employees
- I have been living here for 18 years and I have not been suffering from DHL's night flights before. So something must have changed.
I could go forever but would simply add: thks for your open comments which is why I value such a forum. It is clear however that those dependent on DHL for a living could not agree with me.
But look at what the large European airports do and you will see that Brussels is not doing it the right way, at least not when you are so close to the city.
- DHL is veyr much Flemish oriented. Therefore I would say, those benefitting most from it should bear the annoyance.
- Why not go to Leipzig? I am sure the very ecological German gvt will welcome it.
- I do not think we need DHL at Brussels airport
- We do not need the sort of jobs offered by DHL are good for the quality of family life of its (night shift) employees
- I have been living here for 18 years and I have not been suffering from DHL's night flights before. So something must have changed.
I could go forever but would simply add: thks for your open comments which is why I value such a forum. It is clear however that those dependent on DHL for a living could not agree with me.
But look at what the large European airports do and you will see that Brussels is not doing it the right way, at least not when you are so close to the city.
But look at what the large European airports do and you will see that Brussels is not doing it the right way, at least not when you are so close to the city.
Rwy in Sight
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tgdxb,
Just to respond to your comments in order to give a balance -
'- DHL is veyr much Flemish oriented.'
The company is based in a Flemish commune & is no more language orientated that any other company in Flanders or Walonia.
'- Why not go to Leipzig? I am sure the very ecological German gvt will welcome it.'
Actually they do as they see the employment potential.
'- I do not think we need DHL at Brussels airport'
Maybe you don't but the 2000 direct and up to 5000 indirect jobholders might disagree with you. Don't forget that DHL pays for the facilities at BRU as does any other operator and if their contributions were withdrawn, then the airport would, to a certain extent, stagnate, thereby reducing the service levels for all other operators and passengers. The other alternative would be to raise fees and make flying even more expensive when you want to go on holiday.
'- We do not need the sort of jobs offered by DHL are good for the quality of family life of its (night shift) employees'
Actually, a lot of the employees like working night shift and do it through choice.
'- I have been living here for 18 years and I have not been suffering from DHL's night flights before. So something must have changed.'
As has been quoted in earlier posts, DHL has spent a lot of money in replacing it's fleet with quieter aircraft. The only thing that has changed are the government imposed departure procedures.
RT
Just to respond to your comments in order to give a balance -
'- DHL is veyr much Flemish oriented.'
The company is based in a Flemish commune & is no more language orientated that any other company in Flanders or Walonia.
'- Why not go to Leipzig? I am sure the very ecological German gvt will welcome it.'
Actually they do as they see the employment potential.
'- I do not think we need DHL at Brussels airport'
Maybe you don't but the 2000 direct and up to 5000 indirect jobholders might disagree with you. Don't forget that DHL pays for the facilities at BRU as does any other operator and if their contributions were withdrawn, then the airport would, to a certain extent, stagnate, thereby reducing the service levels for all other operators and passengers. The other alternative would be to raise fees and make flying even more expensive when you want to go on holiday.
'- We do not need the sort of jobs offered by DHL are good for the quality of family life of its (night shift) employees'
Actually, a lot of the employees like working night shift and do it through choice.
'- I have been living here for 18 years and I have not been suffering from DHL's night flights before. So something must have changed.'
As has been quoted in earlier posts, DHL has spent a lot of money in replacing it's fleet with quieter aircraft. The only thing that has changed are the government imposed departure procedures.
RT
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tgdxb,
you made it very clear by your comments that you are
one of the French speaking persons who don't give a d*mn about the 3000+ Flemish jobs at stake.
I hope you never get your job robbed by an intolerant person !!
I have lived close to the Airport (5km and under 25r take-off path) for 28 years, never woke up once !!!
I now live close to a railroad, where i couldn't sleep the first 3 weeks, then got used to it ....and sleep like a baby now
Do you think I should have started a protest ???
Or stood on the tracks when the freight trains pass at night ???
People want everything: a villa, two cars, two kids and - of course - two jobs to pay for all of this !
This means their stressed out of their mind with loans, work, traffic jams, getting kids to school...that's the reason why people are irritated and why they lay awake worried at night .
Some of them like to blame the night flights for their problem
But people like you complain about everything:
Airplanes, motorways, trains, bars, ambulances, other people
sitting in their garden talking on a summer night....
Just buy any Belgian newspaper and you'll find examples of the above ..daily !!
There are still places in Belgium where it's green and there's no noise, BUT it takes you 2 hours to get to work or 1 hour to get to the nearest shop......YOU CAN'T HAVE IT ALL MATE !!!
PEOPLE SHOULD BECOME LESS INTOLERANT,
THEN WE CAN ALL KEEP OUR JOBS AND LIVE IN PEACE :-)
'- I do not think we need DHL at Brussels airport'
Did you know that 50% of the cargo revenue and 50%
of BIAC's profit is generated by DHL, so DHL is actually
-indirectly - paying for the brand new A-pier that was built.
DHL has been paying high landing taxes on nightflts,
money that was supposed to go to a isolation fund....
what the f*ck happened with those millions ????????
BRU DOES NEED DHL, or do you think small companies like SNBrussels and Virgin our going to save the airport ???
If people like you get their way, you should also be able to live with the fact that you'll have to catch a train or drive up to CGN, AMS or CDG to get on a aircraft, cause BRU airport doesn't stand a chance to survive the competion with these airports, NOT without a major cargo operator paying half the airport's operation
'- I have been living here for 18 years and I have not been suffering from DHL's night flights before. So something must have changed.'
Yes, they have been spread around by polliticians who know nottting about aviation !! They don't take in account winds, destination....just a mathematical spreading
This hasen't solved anything, things only got worse,
we used to have 200 people in one place complaining,
NOW we have 10 people each complaining in 20 places :-)
you made it very clear by your comments that you are
one of the French speaking persons who don't give a d*mn about the 3000+ Flemish jobs at stake.
I hope you never get your job robbed by an intolerant person !!
I have lived close to the Airport (5km and under 25r take-off path) for 28 years, never woke up once !!!
I now live close to a railroad, where i couldn't sleep the first 3 weeks, then got used to it ....and sleep like a baby now
Do you think I should have started a protest ???
Or stood on the tracks when the freight trains pass at night ???
People want everything: a villa, two cars, two kids and - of course - two jobs to pay for all of this !
This means their stressed out of their mind with loans, work, traffic jams, getting kids to school...that's the reason why people are irritated and why they lay awake worried at night .
Some of them like to blame the night flights for their problem
But people like you complain about everything:
Airplanes, motorways, trains, bars, ambulances, other people
sitting in their garden talking on a summer night....
Just buy any Belgian newspaper and you'll find examples of the above ..daily !!
There are still places in Belgium where it's green and there's no noise, BUT it takes you 2 hours to get to work or 1 hour to get to the nearest shop......YOU CAN'T HAVE IT ALL MATE !!!
PEOPLE SHOULD BECOME LESS INTOLERANT,
THEN WE CAN ALL KEEP OUR JOBS AND LIVE IN PEACE :-)
'- I do not think we need DHL at Brussels airport'
Did you know that 50% of the cargo revenue and 50%
of BIAC's profit is generated by DHL, so DHL is actually
-indirectly - paying for the brand new A-pier that was built.
DHL has been paying high landing taxes on nightflts,
money that was supposed to go to a isolation fund....
what the f*ck happened with those millions ????????
BRU DOES NEED DHL, or do you think small companies like SNBrussels and Virgin our going to save the airport ???
If people like you get their way, you should also be able to live with the fact that you'll have to catch a train or drive up to CGN, AMS or CDG to get on a aircraft, cause BRU airport doesn't stand a chance to survive the competion with these airports, NOT without a major cargo operator paying half the airport's operation
'- I have been living here for 18 years and I have not been suffering from DHL's night flights before. So something must have changed.'
Yes, they have been spread around by polliticians who know nottting about aviation !! They don't take in account winds, destination....just a mathematical spreading
This hasen't solved anything, things only got worse,
we used to have 200 people in one place complaining,
NOW we have 10 people each complaining in 20 places :-)
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red-on-yello,
you told it, politicians! And this is all my point. Before the politicians got involved 20 was not used, at least not as far as I can remember. And I have been here for 18 years.
I gladly accepted the noise of landing a/c because I knew it and it was my responsible decision. Night T.O. are not, nor 20 usage.
I am sad to say but BRU lost its window of opportunity. Can you believe what this airport is sitting at the core of Europe? Now dependent on cargo & charter traffic, i.e. all the worst traffic one can expect. And this only 8 km off Brussels Market Square?!
I believe the solution is, build a new one. Jacques Delors' solution to European unemployment was major construction works... linked to transportation. Just check out Dubai.
ps. I am not complaining about motorways (I live less than 1 mile from one) nor train nor noisy neighbours because it is not continuous. Just take an example: we get T.O. on Sundays SYSTEMATICALLY between 5:12 & 17:00. One morning I counted 20 T.O. between 6:45 and 7:45. This is supposed on one of these days we are supposed to rest.
I repeat, BRU is the wrong place to set it up this way.
One last one - as a french speaking person I was denied a job at SN because there were not enough Flemish speaking employees. Well, now would be the time to open up employment for French speaking people at BRU. This would be a fair position rather than imposing additional noise on people who are only bearing the annoyance with no compensations. I wanted to leave here but my real estate has lost 20% of its value, as nobody wants to come & live here.
you told it, politicians! And this is all my point. Before the politicians got involved 20 was not used, at least not as far as I can remember. And I have been here for 18 years.
I gladly accepted the noise of landing a/c because I knew it and it was my responsible decision. Night T.O. are not, nor 20 usage.
I am sad to say but BRU lost its window of opportunity. Can you believe what this airport is sitting at the core of Europe? Now dependent on cargo & charter traffic, i.e. all the worst traffic one can expect. And this only 8 km off Brussels Market Square?!
I believe the solution is, build a new one. Jacques Delors' solution to European unemployment was major construction works... linked to transportation. Just check out Dubai.
ps. I am not complaining about motorways (I live less than 1 mile from one) nor train nor noisy neighbours because it is not continuous. Just take an example: we get T.O. on Sundays SYSTEMATICALLY between 5:12 & 17:00. One morning I counted 20 T.O. between 6:45 and 7:45. This is supposed on one of these days we are supposed to rest.
I repeat, BRU is the wrong place to set it up this way.
One last one - as a french speaking person I was denied a job at SN because there were not enough Flemish speaking employees. Well, now would be the time to open up employment for French speaking people at BRU. This would be a fair position rather than imposing additional noise on people who are only bearing the annoyance with no compensations. I wanted to leave here but my real estate has lost 20% of its value, as nobody wants to come & live here.
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Tgdxb
Let me see if I get this right: You're backing down from your claims that 20 is dangerous for take-offs. You'd still rather 25R is used, as that will disturb someone else than you. You'd like DHL to go away, and BRU to be closed, unless someone gives you a job that is. You claim that BRU airport and DHL has never done anything for you, in the process neglecting the billions of Euro's DHL has pumped into the Belgian economy over the years. You couldn't give a toss if several thousand of your country men lost their jobs, 'cause they speak a different language. You claim that the MD-11 is overtly noisy, but how you reached that conclusion is not clear. Pray tell, do you run out of your house in the middle of the night, and can you honestly tell me that you can spot the darkened out aeroplane going overhead as a MD-11 vs anything else? Me thinks you're being spoon fed a hatred towards the MD by ignorant politicians, and that's what got you on your soapbox.
Honestly, you are the living proof that Belgium is not a real country but rather a political decision, and a bad one at that. Noone seems interested in the common good, only what will benefit them personally. For this reason, I suppose, the place is infested with enough publicly elected officials to populate several regular democracies, that that's without counting the EU-crats. And each and every politician are seeking their own, locally driven, agenda to the general detriment of the country as such. So presently we've got the Federal government battling it out with the Flemmish and Wallon ditto, and with the local Brussels government thrown in for good measure, who's got some sort of veto right y the way, over the future of several thousand jobs in a "country" where unemployment is already a problem. The Flemmish seems to be non-plussed about DHL and the Brussels government want them out. The Wallon's would like them to stay, but only if they move to their part of the "country". The Federal government is caught somewhere in between all this, flapping in the political breeze. The unions, in the best of Belgian tradition, is talking strikes. True Belgian logic; your employeer is being forced to think about moving abroad because political infighting puts their future in jeopardy, so in response let's tell our employeer we really understand them - by going on strike! It's a mess. And if DHL leaves, hundreds of other jobs in the airport is also in jeopardy as DHL is also the largest cargo costumer here. But all that's irrelevant to you, 'cause you do not personally benefit from any of it, so screw the Flemmish.
Frankly, you don't deserve DHL to be resident here.
PS
I've been living for around 3 years in Zaventem and sleep splendidly at night - and always with an open window. Aircraft don't make noise - it's the sound of freedom.
Honestly, you are the living proof that Belgium is not a real country but rather a political decision, and a bad one at that. Noone seems interested in the common good, only what will benefit them personally. For this reason, I suppose, the place is infested with enough publicly elected officials to populate several regular democracies, that that's without counting the EU-crats. And each and every politician are seeking their own, locally driven, agenda to the general detriment of the country as such. So presently we've got the Federal government battling it out with the Flemmish and Wallon ditto, and with the local Brussels government thrown in for good measure, who's got some sort of veto right y the way, over the future of several thousand jobs in a "country" where unemployment is already a problem. The Flemmish seems to be non-plussed about DHL and the Brussels government want them out. The Wallon's would like them to stay, but only if they move to their part of the "country". The Federal government is caught somewhere in between all this, flapping in the political breeze. The unions, in the best of Belgian tradition, is talking strikes. True Belgian logic; your employeer is being forced to think about moving abroad because political infighting puts their future in jeopardy, so in response let's tell our employeer we really understand them - by going on strike! It's a mess. And if DHL leaves, hundreds of other jobs in the airport is also in jeopardy as DHL is also the largest cargo costumer here. But all that's irrelevant to you, 'cause you do not personally benefit from any of it, so screw the Flemmish.
Frankly, you don't deserve DHL to be resident here.
PS
I've been living for around 3 years in Zaventem and sleep splendidly at night - and always with an open window. Aircraft don't make noise - it's the sound of freedom.