DHL rejects Belgian demand for less noisy planes (Merged)
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DHL rejects Belgian demand for less noisy planes
DHL rejects Belgian demand for less noisy planes
Reuters English News Service 10/19/04
(C) Reuters Limited 2004.
BRUSSELS, Oct 19 (Reuters) - Global courier DHL's [DHL.UL] stand-off with Belgium again came to a head on Tuesday when it rejected a government request to curb the use of noisy planes as part of its plans to expand at Brussels airport.
DHL's plans to increase flights at Brussels' Zaventem airport hit a roadblock this month when squabbling national and regional governments closed ranks to demand that the company reduce the use of noisy intercontinental planes.
But DHL insisted on Tuesday it needed to boost the number of intercontinental flights using the disputed MD-11 plane if it wanted to stick to its plans to transform Zaventem airport into an intercontinental hub.
"An intercontinental hub needs intercontinental flights. We can organise ourselves until 2011 with 4 intercontinental flight movements," Roland Steisel, the director of legal and regulatory affairs at DHL, told VRT radio.
"But, as from 2011 -- the start of the new hub -- we would need at least 16 movements using the MD-11. Our businessplan is based on that," he added.
Belgium earlier wrote to DHL asking it to replace the MD-11 plane -- a derivative of the three-engined DC-10 airliner and the last long-range widebodied aircraft to be made by McDonnell Douglas -- with less noisy aircraft as soon as possible.
The government asked DHL to start using what it says are newer, quieter planes such as Boeing's (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) B777 from 2011 to operate additional intercontinental flights.
But Steisel said the MD-11 was currently the most efficient airplane destined for intercontinental flights in terms of noise and that there was currently no alternative.
DHL, a unit of Deutsche Post (DPWGn.DE: Quote, Profile, Research) , has made veiled threats to leave the country and take thousands of jobs with it if the global courier does not get its way.
"If setting up an intercontinental hub is not possible in Brussels, then, in 2008, we have to set it up elsewhere. At that time the current hub would have to be transformed into a regional hub," Steisel said.
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I think I smell an MD-11 Hushkit opportunity..............
Reuters English News Service 10/19/04
(C) Reuters Limited 2004.
BRUSSELS, Oct 19 (Reuters) - Global courier DHL's [DHL.UL] stand-off with Belgium again came to a head on Tuesday when it rejected a government request to curb the use of noisy planes as part of its plans to expand at Brussels airport.
DHL's plans to increase flights at Brussels' Zaventem airport hit a roadblock this month when squabbling national and regional governments closed ranks to demand that the company reduce the use of noisy intercontinental planes.
But DHL insisted on Tuesday it needed to boost the number of intercontinental flights using the disputed MD-11 plane if it wanted to stick to its plans to transform Zaventem airport into an intercontinental hub.
"An intercontinental hub needs intercontinental flights. We can organise ourselves until 2011 with 4 intercontinental flight movements," Roland Steisel, the director of legal and regulatory affairs at DHL, told VRT radio.
"But, as from 2011 -- the start of the new hub -- we would need at least 16 movements using the MD-11. Our businessplan is based on that," he added.
Belgium earlier wrote to DHL asking it to replace the MD-11 plane -- a derivative of the three-engined DC-10 airliner and the last long-range widebodied aircraft to be made by McDonnell Douglas -- with less noisy aircraft as soon as possible.
The government asked DHL to start using what it says are newer, quieter planes such as Boeing's (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) B777 from 2011 to operate additional intercontinental flights.
But Steisel said the MD-11 was currently the most efficient airplane destined for intercontinental flights in terms of noise and that there was currently no alternative.
DHL, a unit of Deutsche Post (DPWGn.DE: Quote, Profile, Research) , has made veiled threats to leave the country and take thousands of jobs with it if the global courier does not get its way.
"If setting up an intercontinental hub is not possible in Brussels, then, in 2008, we have to set it up elsewhere. At that time the current hub would have to be transformed into a regional hub," Steisel said.
***************************************************
I think I smell an MD-11 Hushkit opportunity..............
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tgdxb,
Things are much clearer now:
You're one of those 'not in my backyard' guys,
with a grudge against Flemish people because you couldn't get a job at SN...which - with hind sight- wasn't too bad as they went bankrupt...
Remember that it was the government - again - who dropped Sabena at the worst time, just after september 11...
SN was indeed a company losing millions, because there was no real management !!!
only politicians were appointent to the board !!
A few things to set straight:
--One morning I counted 20 T.O. between 6:45 and 7:45..-
Again your ignorance makes you blame DHL aircraft,
which NEVER operate at this time
--I believe the solution is, build a new one. Jacques Delors' solution to European unemployment was major construction works... linked to transportation. Just check out Dubai.--
Wasn't that Hitler's theory as well ??
Pls tell me where in Belgium you want to build this airport,
as everybody would like to find this place in this densely populated banana republic !!
Maybe you can built one in the sea (Price 5 billion dollars)
...but then people like you at the Belgain coast will complain.......
Remember the airport has been in BRU since 1941, it is only because people kept building houses closer and closer to the
airport, that it became a populated area....
-my real estate has lost 20% of its value-
Pls tell me where you live, as everywhere i look to buy a house around BRU they have gone up !! Prices near the airport have gone up 8 % the last 10 years, in the Oostrand even 10% (official figures from the notaries)(my guess is you live their, as a lot of French speaking intollerant people moved out of Brussels centre toward Flemish communeties..... because of intollerance towards immigrants)
I have to agree with flip flop, we really don't deserve such companies, as the Flemish part of our country doesn't understand
we need them, although the bloody Walloons are begging for us to come over there...this should ring a bell doesn't it :-)
Can't imagine seeing this discussion over TNT @ LGG,
would like to see the Flemish region oppose their expansion or night flts, like the French bastards in the BRussels region are doing now !!
Can't say i'am proud to be Flemish, seeing how all the money and jobs are sucked out of Flanders... towards the Walloons
But you can't blame the Walloons for being smarter than us
Why all the fuss about the MD11's ?? We flew f*cking 20 727's a night for over 10 years and made a billion dollar investment to replace them by 757's.
The 3 governments couldn't agree regarding the expansion plans,
so they agreed to blame the failure on DHL, thus lowering the QC and making any expansion impossible.....unless DHL buys 777's at about 200 million a peace.
If you compare this to the threatment their getting in LEJ,
their decision has been made much easier now
Things are much clearer now:
You're one of those 'not in my backyard' guys,
with a grudge against Flemish people because you couldn't get a job at SN...which - with hind sight- wasn't too bad as they went bankrupt...
Remember that it was the government - again - who dropped Sabena at the worst time, just after september 11...
SN was indeed a company losing millions, because there was no real management !!!
only politicians were appointent to the board !!
A few things to set straight:
--One morning I counted 20 T.O. between 6:45 and 7:45..-
Again your ignorance makes you blame DHL aircraft,
which NEVER operate at this time
--I believe the solution is, build a new one. Jacques Delors' solution to European unemployment was major construction works... linked to transportation. Just check out Dubai.--
Wasn't that Hitler's theory as well ??
Pls tell me where in Belgium you want to build this airport,
as everybody would like to find this place in this densely populated banana republic !!
Maybe you can built one in the sea (Price 5 billion dollars)
...but then people like you at the Belgain coast will complain.......
Remember the airport has been in BRU since 1941, it is only because people kept building houses closer and closer to the
airport, that it became a populated area....
-my real estate has lost 20% of its value-
Pls tell me where you live, as everywhere i look to buy a house around BRU they have gone up !! Prices near the airport have gone up 8 % the last 10 years, in the Oostrand even 10% (official figures from the notaries)(my guess is you live their, as a lot of French speaking intollerant people moved out of Brussels centre toward Flemish communeties..... because of intollerance towards immigrants)
I have to agree with flip flop, we really don't deserve such companies, as the Flemish part of our country doesn't understand
we need them, although the bloody Walloons are begging for us to come over there...this should ring a bell doesn't it :-)
Can't imagine seeing this discussion over TNT @ LGG,
would like to see the Flemish region oppose their expansion or night flts, like the French bastards in the BRussels region are doing now !!
Can't say i'am proud to be Flemish, seeing how all the money and jobs are sucked out of Flanders... towards the Walloons
But you can't blame the Walloons for being smarter than us
Why all the fuss about the MD11's ?? We flew f*cking 20 727's a night for over 10 years and made a billion dollar investment to replace them by 757's.
The 3 governments couldn't agree regarding the expansion plans,
so they agreed to blame the failure on DHL, thus lowering the QC and making any expansion impossible.....unless DHL buys 777's at about 200 million a peace.
If you compare this to the threatment their getting in LEJ,
their decision has been made much easier now
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Did some research,and this site shows the ICAO figures for a range of aircraft.
http://www.adv-net.org/eng/drv/um_la...10183414B6.php
It shows that the MD-11 is MARGINALLY noisier than the B777.
What's all the fuss about?
http://www.adv-net.org/eng/drv/um_la...10183414B6.php
It shows that the MD-11 is MARGINALLY noisier than the B777.
What's all the fuss about?
What's all the fuss about?
The actual situation is irrelevant
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All three versions of the MD-11 engine options (P&W, GE + R.R) are all stage 3 certified. The B777's engine options are also stage 3 with future modificatons brining it up to stage 4. So, this A/C complies with the actual noise restrictions at BRU,must be a political issue (again). I just hope that the pressure the Beluim's are putting pressure on DHL, does not end up in another fiasco for the airline industry in that country...they seem to be good at messing things up in the airline industry!!!!
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interesting postings!
while politics is part of the problem, the other serious problem is noise disturbance due to airport's proximity to town centre and neighbouring suburbs, particularly at night. Whatever noise & hushkit level, a plane is noisy at night.
Plus, it is about a private corporation dictating to Belgians what to do.
I think a company like DHL should not be operating off BRU, at least not at night.
while politics is part of the problem, the other serious problem is noise disturbance due to airport's proximity to town centre and neighbouring suburbs, particularly at night. Whatever noise & hushkit level, a plane is noisy at night.
Plus, it is about a private corporation dictating to Belgians what to do.
I think a company like DHL should not be operating off BRU, at least not at night.
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Flip Flop Flyer,
what a temper!
although I believe you are mixing up quite a few things about Belgium, I tend to agree that the political setup is 'not appropriate' to say the least.
I can hardly agree with your overall assessment of the situation and your comments on my points but I have to respect your position.
I'll just tell you that it would be interesting to walk over the whole of the 'Brussels International Airport' and count the number of French speaking employees there.
I was told at school that sleep is damned important to people's health and I am not the happy one who can sleep w/ DHL & charter night T.O. from 20. Sorry about my genes! Plus, I keep thinking that these overflights are dangerous and I am not the only one, far from that. It wasn't like that when I moved in in 1986 nor was there any study forecasting this sort of evolution. Else I wouldn't have bought there. Any major airport is much further away from the city it serves. Finding another location for a new airport is impossible as long as reasonable people don't want to try.
And a last comment because I do not want to enter a long argument - why is all this decided unilaterally? It would have been better to involve all stakeholders at time of decision to prevent later infightings. It seems like some smart people have decided it wasn't necessary. I would ask again, what would Londoners say if the whole LHR inbound/outbound traffic were dispersed all over London? Hmmmmm...
ps. I live in Wezembeek but you should have been able to guess this from previous postings.
what a temper!
although I believe you are mixing up quite a few things about Belgium, I tend to agree that the political setup is 'not appropriate' to say the least.
I can hardly agree with your overall assessment of the situation and your comments on my points but I have to respect your position.
I'll just tell you that it would be interesting to walk over the whole of the 'Brussels International Airport' and count the number of French speaking employees there.
I was told at school that sleep is damned important to people's health and I am not the happy one who can sleep w/ DHL & charter night T.O. from 20. Sorry about my genes! Plus, I keep thinking that these overflights are dangerous and I am not the only one, far from that. It wasn't like that when I moved in in 1986 nor was there any study forecasting this sort of evolution. Else I wouldn't have bought there. Any major airport is much further away from the city it serves. Finding another location for a new airport is impossible as long as reasonable people don't want to try.
And a last comment because I do not want to enter a long argument - why is all this decided unilaterally? It would have been better to involve all stakeholders at time of decision to prevent later infightings. It seems like some smart people have decided it wasn't necessary. I would ask again, what would Londoners say if the whole LHR inbound/outbound traffic were dispersed all over London? Hmmmmm...
ps. I live in Wezembeek but you should have been able to guess this from previous postings.
Irrespective of what ruddy aircraft the used, they never seemed to get my film packages from ACE to LGW in anything approaching the specified time. When they upgraded their services, it only got worse. To my mind they are a lousy company whatever they fly.
tgdxb , here you are again talking absolute tosh. Do you understand DHL's business concept? The answer is most obviously a resounding "NO"! You are most certainly anti and not pro aviation. And don't lecture me about noise. I lived for several years right under the extended centerline (2.5 miles) of the main runway of an airport served by 1st generation jet airliners and heavy turboprops. 
Loved it!!!
Loved it!!!
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The MD-11 in many places is the most noisy airplane in evidence, and a weapon in the hands of the enemies of civil aviation. ------ 
suppose DHL is just looking for a good pretext to shift everything over to Leipzig !
Oshkosh; I do NOT know about the SCIENTIFIC noise levels of MD-11 and B777, BUT I sometimes have both types less than 500 meters right in front of me (in the office) and the MD-11 is twice as noisy then the B777. In case of the B777 at start-up I can continue with a phone-conversation while I in case of the MD-11 have to stop for quite a moment.
Avman; you remind me of the time when I helped to search for a new apartment for a friend. People in charge upon enquiry told me that all the important rooms looked AWAY from the airport and that only the toilet was on the airport-side -- and were totally shocked when I told them that THEN their lodgings were out of the question ! And in the end, I had people on the phone who apologized and said that, well, the apartment was open towards the airport-approach (unfortunately) and possibly was NOT what we might be looking for --- and almost burst into laughters when I told them that THIS was exactly what my friend was looking for. He now has his computer at the window and can watch the landing approach from his seat. He can change to the terrace and do the same. And he even can photograph larger aircraft while being to land !
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suppose DHL is just looking for a good pretext to shift everything over to Leipzig !Oshkosh; I do NOT know about the SCIENTIFIC noise levels of MD-11 and B777, BUT I sometimes have both types less than 500 meters right in front of me (in the office) and the MD-11 is twice as noisy then the B777. In case of the B777 at start-up I can continue with a phone-conversation while I in case of the MD-11 have to stop for quite a moment.
Avman; you remind me of the time when I helped to search for a new apartment for a friend. People in charge upon enquiry told me that all the important rooms looked AWAY from the airport and that only the toilet was on the airport-side -- and were totally shocked when I told them that THEN their lodgings were out of the question ! And in the end, I had people on the phone who apologized and said that, well, the apartment was open towards the airport-approach (unfortunately) and possibly was NOT what we might be looking for --- and almost burst into laughters when I told them that THIS was exactly what my friend was looking for. He now has his computer at the window and can watch the landing approach from his seat. He can change to the terrace and do the same. And he even can photograph larger aircraft while being to land !
-
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Oshkosh,
The site you refer to is a useful resource, although I wish there were a few more aircraft on it - there are big differences for example between different models of 737, and it would be nice to see the Q400 and the project readings for the A380, 7E7 etc on this scale too.
Remember that the DB scale is logarithmic - so taking an approach rating of 103,8DB (MD-11) against 99,4DB (777-200) would show quite a difference - I believe the MD11 would appear to be about 2.7 times as loud, but can anyone confirm the maths - its too late at night for me to want to get my head round this any more).
The site you refer to is a useful resource, although I wish there were a few more aircraft on it - there are big differences for example between different models of 737, and it would be nice to see the Q400 and the project readings for the A380, 7E7 etc on this scale too.
Remember that the DB scale is logarithmic - so taking an approach rating of 103,8DB (MD-11) against 99,4DB (777-200) would show quite a difference - I believe the MD11 would appear to be about 2.7 times as loud, but can anyone confirm the maths - its too late at night for me to want to get my head round this any more).
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I do appreciate the reasonable comments of AnwarAmir & would appreciate some other people to be a bit more courteous. Everyone has got the right of his opinion, including me.
Bottom line - I just would like to sleep at night!
Problem is people like Avman - and a few others posting - are stubbornly sticking to one concept of BRU and are not even thinking 'out of the box' to find solutions. The airport industry has acknowledged this sort of problems for a long while, even LHR and their T5 plans.
We are living in a democracy and decisions should be made this way. DHL have completely failed with communications management. It is not right imposing one's views or appearing to be doing so.
I am working in aviation and don't mind whether you believe it or not.
I love aviation and don't mind whether you believe it or not.
I hate noise at night whether you like it or not and even if you are lucky enough not to be disturbed by it.
Bottom line - I just would like to sleep at night!
Problem is people like Avman - and a few others posting - are stubbornly sticking to one concept of BRU and are not even thinking 'out of the box' to find solutions. The airport industry has acknowledged this sort of problems for a long while, even LHR and their T5 plans.
We are living in a democracy and decisions should be made this way. DHL have completely failed with communications management. It is not right imposing one's views or appearing to be doing so.
I am working in aviation and don't mind whether you believe it or not.
I love aviation and don't mind whether you believe it or not.
I hate noise at night whether you like it or not and even if you are lucky enough not to be disturbed by it.
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DHL has a large contract with Lufthansa for joint use of LH Cargo MD-11s on a number of routes worldwide as well as transatlantic MD-11 lift from Gemini. (plus others on an ad-hoc basis.)
tgdxb,
When flying around in Belgium, noise abatement is a serious issue and we try to respect it in every way. We hardly have any "standard" procedures anymore. The story is not as simple as you describe it here. Aviation has always been looking for solutions for the noise problem.
How can you claim that "DHL have failed in communications management"? They are very aware of the noise problem. When Sabena was forced to renew it's fleet, it ended up banckrupt. Why? Politics. DHL did the same thing, it replaced a full 727 fleet with 757 because of the noise problem. And it's still a profiteable company, creating necessary, stable employment.
SID's changed because of noise-abatement. You can't blame DHL for the plan that was constructed by the politicians, a plan that hit innocent people indeed. I agree.
It's DHL's choice which planes it wants to use. No matter what aircraft you choose, it will make noise. I doubt if 90% of the people complaining about "no sleep" will be able to tell the difference between a departing 777, or a departing MD11, standing blindfolded near the airport. You'll wake up at night hearing a 777 as well. I wake up at night when our neighbour's dog is barking all around. I can sometimes not even sleep if the bread machine at the other side of the road starts rumbling. Not being able to sleep is also psychology...
And in the end, everybody talks about the MD11, blaims DHL and forgets the plans of DHL with the noisy A300.
The story is a lot more complex than you describe. The whole MD11 issue is simply a way for the government not to blame herself.
When flying around in Belgium, noise abatement is a serious issue and we try to respect it in every way. We hardly have any "standard" procedures anymore. The story is not as simple as you describe it here. Aviation has always been looking for solutions for the noise problem.
How can you claim that "DHL have failed in communications management"? They are very aware of the noise problem. When Sabena was forced to renew it's fleet, it ended up banckrupt. Why? Politics. DHL did the same thing, it replaced a full 727 fleet with 757 because of the noise problem. And it's still a profiteable company, creating necessary, stable employment.
SID's changed because of noise-abatement. You can't blame DHL for the plan that was constructed by the politicians, a plan that hit innocent people indeed. I agree.
It's DHL's choice which planes it wants to use. No matter what aircraft you choose, it will make noise. I doubt if 90% of the people complaining about "no sleep" will be able to tell the difference between a departing 777, or a departing MD11, standing blindfolded near the airport. You'll wake up at night hearing a 777 as well. I wake up at night when our neighbour's dog is barking all around. I can sometimes not even sleep if the bread machine at the other side of the road starts rumbling. Not being able to sleep is also psychology...
And in the end, everybody talks about the MD11, blaims DHL and forgets the plans of DHL with the noisy A300.
The story is a lot more complex than you describe. The whole MD11 issue is simply a way for the government not to blame herself.