All recruitment at SAA on hold (The world according to JetNut thread)
 

Hear from one of the cadets that ALL hiring at SAA has stopped. The consultants have arrived and thought that losing R3MILL A DAY was a tad much. Looks like they are gonna ditch the loss making routes.

Wonder if i am FINALLY gonna stop wasting my taxes on the national carrier? Sadly i think its gonna be like all the rest, the 'fix' for SAA is gonna be so unpalettable that they all just go home after a yr, with a fat cheque.

Maybe Comair will throw a party for SAA when it finally makes a profit too

Yep this is true for now, unless you have a letter of appointment then everything remains as is. SAA needs to trim the work force by about 3000 people it seems, and although the airline is currently short of crew it can hardly be seen to "try" and retrench 3000 employees and at the same time hire 80 or so pilots. So in the meanwhile recruitment has been put on hold.
As for loss making routes...????? Didn't know there was any...but as any consultants do when auditing or consulting for a company, everything is put on hold until such time as a plan is brought forward to try and stem some of the bleeding...........!!!!
Hopefully this time it won't...........but it wouldn't be surprising in the least!!!!!

Yes indeed, the hatchet men are in town. The Seabury team have been here for the last 2 weeks. Every department in the airline has been grilled on what they spend money on. Seabury will then cut where they feel is appropriate. Having seen this operation first hand -its ruthless and Im very sure they will come up with the required. reduction in expenditure both in SA and overseas. This is the first step in the restructure- once the results are quantified, the staff compliment will be looked at- already a great deal of duplication has been identified and will be addressed by moving the staff to departments that require manpower in the short term. Then its off to the unions….honestly Im glad I don’t have that job- with all the shenanigans the top dogs have pulled over the last few years they are doing to have a hard time negotiating!

At the same time a separate team is overhauling the sales and distribution function of the airline- specifically targeting distribution cost- again major improvements have been achieved- and will lead to serious cost reduction on an ongoing basis.

Some of the long-haul routes are not making money- the reasons vary by route, but are mostly redeemable- provided fundamental corrective action is taken immediately. Steps to address this are being presented to the board in early April and if the board agrees no-one is going to be very happy with the outcome but it will deliver the cost savings and improve route profitability.

A bit of trimming?
 

Sorry guys, to stop R3 bar a day, u need to do more that trim off a little fat.

SAA has to decide which routes it can sustain, ditch the rest, and get down to the right size with the right cost structure. Sadly SAA cost structure is so way out of line with the industry in SA. Top to btm is way over paid and way under worked. And that is flight deck as well.

Just dont see them telling everybody to take a 30% pay cut and getting rid of 1/3 of the staff. If they did, they would be on the next plane with that big cheque.

And remember not only do they have to stop bleeding over a Billion a yr, they have to made a REAL profit. Prob requires a turn around of R3 bill. In the last couple of yrs the tax payer has had to 'recapitalise' to the tune of R4 bill a yr.

This is not a fat trimming exercise, DPE are not that stupid and would not be duped by that. When its all over this will become evident- size wize, SAA will definitely be a smaller airline than when this process started- that is route wise as well as fleet.

Once again Deskjockey is 100% accurate:

Alec Irwin has made it very clear (at the last meeting between SAA and his department) that the recent capital bailout was the last. His words were to the effect that the SA taxpayer will tolerate no more.

SAA will certainly end up as a more productive, streamline and competitive airline than the one we know now. I suspect that much of the domestic market currently served by SAA will end up being operated by either Mango or SAX (the money ends up in the same coffer after all).

Interesting times ahead for sure.

Business Process Re-Engineering

That's what it used to be called when paying Consultants millions to do very little except write damning reports.

Now I've seen a number of these before, but there is one key issue that has determined the failure of most of them.

All reports/recommendations made by such consultants at one point or another make it very clear how poor an Organisation and therefore the Individuals-in-Charge are performing.

Thus, once the Executive Summary is delivered by the Consultants, they are usually thanked and paid, but their recommendations shelved...:zzz:

It takes a very special brand of person/s in the Executive of any company to stand up and implement the tough decisions proposed. If these are not "pushed" from someone/somewhere who will not be directly affected, it might not happen at all.

Hope in this case, the tough decisions will be made "outside" the SAA Executive Boardroom. :ouch:

:oh:

Halve the salaries of the SAA pilots. Why should their salaries be so way out of line with the rest of the industry in South Africa? The rest of South Africa's pilots will chuckle as they file past the SAAPA picket lines for interviews:D

Just remember that the trickle down effect is going to work faster when salaries are cut than when they're increased. If Spoories gets a pay cut you can be sure damned near everyone else will follow within a day or two.:(

DJ Yes that makes sense, cut some of the revenue, thats sure to help, maybe they should stop flying loss making routes like Accra and fly to guaranteed profit making routes like Lisbon, Madrid, back to Bangkok, Miami, Sydney.
They need to cut the fat and up the revenue, that means right seat configurations, right aircraft.
I will take your quote with a pinch of salt DJ, after your prediction of Mango taking more of SAA's 800's fell flat, it seems you are not 100% correct all the time.
JG1..........:= I wont even go there, but I can see how you never got into SAA......no wait let me guess you never wanted to get into SAA?
DJ sorry to digress from the original post but while on the topic of Mango, please enlighten me on the status of the Mango /SAA relationship, it seems the SAA aircraft regularly fly excess Mango baggage, Mango use SITA flight plans, now which low cost airline in there right mind would use SITA (ie the costs involved), all the flight planning, load sheets all done courtesy of SAA, when a Mango aircraft breaks down SAA aircraft and crew are used, Mango leases there aircraft from SAA at a "market related rate" (less that SAA are paying for them), Mango uses the same company equity for busses, stairs, PAU's etc, companies that are in the know know that Equity charge ridiculous fees just ask the nationwide boss thats why he has bought his own, I am sure its easy to make a profit when big brother gives you all the services for free no doubt, Mango simply passes there costs to SAA and then claims they are making a profit....smoke and mirrors and it wont be long before the likes of Comair exposes this and take SAA to the competitions board again and again SAA will get a new hole torn into it. I hope the consultants see what is happening and advise SAA that they cut Mango loose.

JG1


Why don't you come and work for us (SAA)? Then you won't be so bitter and twisted !! I don't think you should assume that 1/2 of the other airlines pilot force would rejoice if SAA actually apply a salary cut, because the average pilot I know(that includes pilots flying for airlines other than SAA),don't enjoy seeing any airline going down,furlough,or apply salary cuts and neither do I. We are all the same ,just working for a different brand.Good luck with your career !!!!!!

Just my "3''çents worth !!

Well said Bianchi, I wonder how they would feel if their employer was going through a tough time. I can tell you that I've been around long enough to know that if SAA cuts the salaries, the rest of you guys will be paid in mango's as they will not have to maintain competitive salaries to stop the mangos from leaving for better paid jobs, or at least pilot jobs where you get to wear a white shirt!!!:=

I don't have any wish to see any salary cuts, but I think that the SAA guys overstate the importance of their packages for the general level of pay in SA.

Our company has made it quite clear that SAA packages have zero influence at negotiations and that we can stop bringing it up. This is obviously minuted and the reverse will be true if SAA did take pay cuts.

I hope that my fellow pilots at SAA can weather this exercise and that no retrenchments/furloughs are in the offing.

Seconded. Once again it seems that SAA pilots seriously believe that their fantasy salaries are of any relevance out there in the real world.
Guys - you could be paid R1 Mil per month, or R1 - it makes no difference to anybody else. Others get paid what the market dictates, based on actual profit and loss. It would be relevant if SAA actually hired people at a higher rate - but they don't. Just take a look at the title of this thread again.

I also hope that nobody gets chucked out - more pilots on the market don't help anybody. THAT would cause salaries to change for the worse.

If it was not such a big issue then why keep bringing it up? you guys negotiate your salary and we will negotiate ours, I really could not give a rats :mad: what the other airline crew get paid.
But why has it come to salaries again? SAA's troubles do not stem from pilot salaries of that I assure you, management would love to blame the pilots because then it would be a bunch of whiging whitey's to blame not the friends of the ANC club, the whole system at SAA is top heavy, with massive corruption and contracts for buddies, SAA just needs to decide if they want to be the great Social experiment gravy train to 1000's.... employer of all of SA's PD people, flag waving to useless nothing countries and executive taxi to every government employee, or if they want to run a business.
Why pay R450 for a printer cartridge when you can pay R200? why pay R50 for a blank disk when they actually cost R5, why keep using companies like Equity who are very expensive and there staff steal stuff from the passengers bagage, why keep using Airchef's who produce misserable meals at twice the price of the competition, why use Equity crew busses which cost R800 000 a month when you could go and buy yourself a few crew busses? ....why......because your BEE buddies are suppling these things and we must spread the wealth and pay our buddies well.
Stop with the salary thing, its got very little to do with SAA's troubles, if you are unhappy with your present salary then move, do what other people do and better yourself.
Quote from Alec Irwin "SAA is a strategic asset, and will remain a strategic asset"

I would have no problem in taking a pay cut, they must just fix the root cause of the real trouble first before they come to the pilots and ask for help, the SAA pilots and Cabin Crew are probably the only people who have a vested interest in the future of SAA, everyone else is just there to rape and pillage and take what they can get.

Fluffy, your comment "I really could not give a rats what the other airline crew get paid" is the reason why they will be chuckling as they walk past the SAAPA picket lines for interviews.

If SAA is to be run as a profit-making business it can't continue to bleed by paying pie-in-the-sky salaries to anyone, pilots included.

JGI You have no idea of what you are talking about. Do you know what percentage of costs is attributed to Pilot Salaries versus Fuel, maintenance etc. It is not that SAA pilots are over paid but that you are under paid for what you are doing. Now do not get me wrong here mate , I do not work for SAA but I'm getting a bit fed up with people like you that are always looking at what others are getting paid and then bitch when you do not get the same, but at the same time will take a lower paying package or even pay for your own rating...bollocks mate

Back to the point
 

Well said Frogman1484. More SA crew need to stop the comparisons and decide to stand up for what they think is their value! (not too many of these where I work :mad:).

Back to the thread - at the very least we have another angle to the SAA debacle. Unless I'm mistaken these fellas sorted out Air Canada? Nothing is gonna change unless we get a semi-level playing field for the rest of the operators. Anyone know how long these processes take?

Salaries at SAA
 

My initial post said that everybody at SAA is overpaid in comparison to the industry. I have no idea how the flight deck can ever justify their salaries. However, I am not saying they are the only ones.

I have every right to comment on what SAA earns, I am its only share holder. This is not an attack on my many friends at SAA. But -

I AM THE TAX PAYER, ALL SAA WORKS FOR ME.

If SAA were a private or a listed company, that would be different. But as its only share holder, I want a profit. And sadly, labour is supply and demand. Last time i looked, there are plenty of guys earning peanuts flying rubber dog do around. Also plenty of people queueing to be check- in staff , COE's etc.

I want my taxes to be spent on fixing roads, providing electricity and stopping crime.

:rolleyes: ok well good luck with that one.

let me ask you Avi8tor what do SAA pilots earn? do you know or do you think you know? what should they earn? same as Nationwide, same as Comair? would you then be happy, what is the story surrounding SAA pilots salaries, what is parity? how is it worked out? who worked it out? do SAA pilots even have Parity? if you can answer these questions you will come to your own conclusion, there is a big myth out there that SAA pilots earn huge salaries, its simply not the case, just get the facts.

I am also a tax payer mate, but I have a lot more riding on SAA's future than you do more, I have not met one pilot who would not agree to having his salary cut if that meant SAA would survive, however as I have said that is really not the problem, the problems are way deeper and they need to fix those problems first as the pilot group has been saying for decades.

Strange that the slanging match has to revert to SAA pilots salaries.:ugh: As previous posters have stated, nothing to do with why recruitment at SAA has been put on hold. So guys get over it!!! Realistically the airline is overstaffed, more personnel per aircraft than probably any other airline in the world, this ranges from check in staff right up to senior managers! This is where the trimming has to start....will it be done?.....ummmm anyones guess! But to state that SAA crew get overpaid, it's more a case of certain others under pay their pilots. So be it!
....hey me too. But who the :mad: bloody hell cares. It's one of those things we unfortunately have to bare. Take it or leave it...I suppose. And it ain't going to change!
SAA has got to sort out its mess within the year, and try and get on an even keel. Sort out all the outdated contracts,(which amount to R273 million odd) bring managers in line and generally clean out the cobwebs that have been around many a year.
Unforunately it won't be an easy task, unions will be jumping up and down, certain peepol will be toy toying in the streets, strikes, fights and other things.
- I've heard the same, amongst other airlines. So maybe a slight glimmer of hope here!:D

SAA pilot salaries are not where they are due to good luck. They applied a mutually aggreed apon formula based on various domestic and international carriers (yes we are an international carrier unlike the rest of you). We fly further, longer, in bigger, more advanced aircraft than the rest of the locals. We get paid more because we are the standard in this country. Our pilot group as a whole is the most experienced and professional this continent has. The pilots are one of the few things keeping SAA together. SAA pilot salaries whether high or low will not inpact on SAA's botton line. That's up to Mr Erwin and who of his friends he wants to run SAA.

PS. If anyone was surprised at the lack of modesty in this post.? Don't be.

And Nationwide don't fly long-haul, advanced aircraft on international routes? I thought not...but of course when working for SAA why think about anything else except your own little world?

Pprune members...........request!!!!
Just a question since we are all "professional" pilots here, why is it that everyone tends to slag off SAA pilots? C'mon guys what is it? Professional jealousy? Fancy equipment, fancy salaries? I know this is off topic but when we're all discussing SAA recruitment and the slagging starts man it makes me ashamed to be amongst the so called professional individuals on this forum.
I get to hear it every day in fact....listen to that SAA guy on the radio....:mad: :mad: ....ag..bloody tax payer this tax payer that!! What for? I dunno 'cos it's kinda childish don't you think!

The whale is bleeding so hopefully our national carrier and "our" colleagues can come out of this turmoil in one piece! Leave the SAA pilot/salary slagging to another day.
Kinda boring............:zzz: :zzz: :zzz: yawn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok back to the post.

Yes all new recruitments are on hold, not cancelled just on hold, unlike DJ suggests I think SAA is going into a phase of expansion, more aircraft and hence more aircrew required.

SAA is 70-80 (figures vary) pilots short already, now with a little luck the over 60's agreement will fall away soon due to a number of reasons, which I will not go into here due to it being a very sensitive subject, so SAA will be short of crew, I am sure the consultants will see this and make appropropriate suggestions.

JG1 dont bother applying as you obviously have no interest in flying for SAA

I'm not usually one to contribute to threads but JG1's constant hacking at overpaid SAA pilots is starting to really p!$$ me off. SAA pilots are well paid and so they should be. Most of the pilot body have been with the copany for over a couple decades which equates to a fair amount of experience. Airline pilots are professionals, in the same likes as surgeons, engineers and other field specialists of various other professions. Why should a 30-year service captain be happy with taking R80K home a month? Look at what other major international arilines are paying their crew and then stop whinging about the fact that you could never make it to the interview.

Drop the salaries and you will see pilots starting to leave for higher paid jobs elsewhere. The crisis-management solution will be to hire contracted guys from Parc and the like who will obviouly not have the best interest for the company at heart. 10 SAA pilot's alone could save the company more money in reduced fuel burn than the 3000 excess workers who sit at their desk, picking their noses while trying to figure out what solitair is all about. Eisshhhh...

Oh and BTW, I am not an SAA jockey. I was once a wannabe but thanks to the fair BEE system, am forced to fly for an airline north of the Limpopo. I still get excited like a little boy when flying accross the Indian ocean on a dark night and in the distance can hear "Springbok" calling Bombay HF. I look at my captain and say, "isn't that an awesome callsign, It's from my national carrier." :ok:

Fluffy. You might not like what I have to say and that’s fine- reality is that SAA is up the creek and the paddle is floating away. Why we are where we are is a function of a number of things- and no Im not one who subscribes to getting the pilots-or anyone else for that matter …well maybe Khaya - to take a pay cut because that’s not where the problem really lies. The issues are fundamental and if not addressed this business will continue to burn cash at the rate its been doing. Capital reserves have been wiped out, decisions are taken by the wrong people on the basis of flawed strategy- this needs to change.

Right now the priority is to stem the flow of cash out the business- this encompasses recruitment, contracts (including leases) etc. Your answer to everything is to grow- fly more places, get more aircraft. Problem is what’s the point if your business is not in a position to leverage that growth? Size has no relation to profitability. If the submission to the board on the fleet is approved then there will be a reduction the number of aircraft operated- yes this means there are one or two routes that now hang in the balance, however the effects will be minimized by increasing utilization on the remaining aircraft to a point. No crew will be out of work as the increased utilization on the remaining fleet will absorb them.

Once we move the business out of the ICU unit and prove to DPE that the balance sheet is looking better AND the performance is sustainable- then they will provide the 4bil recap. If the DPE’s conditions are not met then no money and no SAA. Simple.

So many questions on Mango, which clearly you believe to be the root of all evil. Despite your feelings, SAA still owns Mango- the relationship the two companies have is in no way anti competitive- if it were I can assure you messers Novick, Orsmond, Bricknell would be bleating about it already. Why does Mango use Equity- well why does 1Time use them? why does Mango use SAT- well why does Comair use them for their 737’s? etc etc

As things stand right now Mango’s future seems pretty well set- can the same be said for SAA right now? It will be if we get this right- there is no choice.

That's a pretty dumb comment. Lots of pilots left Nationwide because of the poor salaries. SAA pilots are rational beings, one would hope, and not insensitive to the plight of others - maybe if you were in that situation, you would donate half your earnings to your underpaid colleagues............

I'm a taxpayer too
 

Avi8tor,

Your taxes also pay for government administration from the president down. How are they doing with infrastructure and crime fighting these days? At least the SAA pilots get you to where you want to go, can't say the same about the governments efforts.

DJ,
Wouldn't it be a good idea to offer the man at the top, who seems to have no clue anyway, some sort of incentive scheme. Hold the carrot in one hand and demand something from the other. After all we are dealing with someone who makes eternal excuses for his spendthrift attitude. Make it work or you can find another bed to lie around in, should be the motto.....I know it's not that easy but I'm afraid someone needs to be made accountable for such losses. Don't you think? Makes me wonder what Maria Ramos was thinking when appointing said CEO....job for the boys maybe?
I think it's finally about time we saw some movin and shakin!
Subsonicmortal have to agree with your post entirely.......!!! Well put! :ok:
Just a question DJ, with the expense of the 747-400's and the impending arrival of the A340's back from lease, could we see a quicker exit of the 74's. I believe the lease agreements are costing a bomb! What of the article on the A340-500's from Thai...any truth in the rumour?
Well lets hope the consultants come up with a lifesaver and ol' Khaya and his logic comes to the party.........finally!
Talking of party...have Mango management taken up Kululas' offer yet?

JG1, PM me your real name and I will go and see if your CV is sitting on the top shelf in the flight deck crew recruitment room. Chances are it is!! By the way, that shelf is labelled something like "Not suitable - Do not interview again".

And DJ, what's the real story about the B744 fleet being parked? How do you park a fleet on which you are making lease payments of around $1 million per a/c per month? I do agree with you that SAA will shrink in the short term. Hopefully less one KN and NM as well. My opinion is that senior government appointed management has really stuffed up the airline!!

DJ I agree completely, the source of the problem must be fixed, and the source is just plain simple bad management, the government needs to decide if SAA is a BEE social employment agency or a business, it seems they would like it to be a business they have made it quite clear thats what they want, so they must then cut the :mad: and run it like a business.

There really is no alternate than for SAA to exist, what are the options? lots of sabre rattling by government but contemplate the alternatives.

I do not have anything against Mango, I am glad its there to give the competition a run for there money but lets be honest the Mango balance sheet is not telling the true story and I am concerned that the true story might just be a nett loss, it helps nobody to hide the true operating costs, we will never know if its a success or not.

Maybe the reason why it's not being brought out in the open, is that SAA could be/trying to fund the loss, maybe, and then scared that if truth prevails the anti competition board will be set alight with Comair and NTW trying to strike the first match.
This again would cost SAA more money and so the viscous circle continues.
DJ, I can see you're a Mango fan, so maybe shed just a little light and stop the rumour mongers......!!!! Just a thought!
Who knows....thing is we'll probably never know!

Reading through all of this I am strangely (being no lover of SAA) moved to say what I notice here. Instead of bashing SAA (which I too love)'s pilot salaries, we should be bashing the other local airlines to up the ante and pay competitive salaries. Unless everybody is paid their worth, there will always be someone who feels hard done by.

Must say that spoories drivers are a little quick to gloat, always dragging the whole employment envy out of the closet. Remember that guys at the other carriers didnt chose their salaries and type of hardware they operate, they are just trying to make an existance, like you. Albeit in a slightly less cushy environment.

Airline pilots should be standing together to raise the level of what is on offer here in SA, instead of the tiresome verbal masturbation contest we witness here daily.:ok:

On the 345's that's total BS, we would like to go in another direction. Thai is trying to offload theirs and are trying to spice up the market a little.

744's...the proposal is going to be to park the whole lot- obviously there is an effort on the go to get rid of them but its probably safe to say we wont be able to offload all of them and so what doesn’t go will wined up looking at the fence in the technical area. The numbers are really against these machines, the revised schedule- without them in it, but still including their lease costs- saves us a few hundred million a year, its hard to justify keeping them on in the face of that. Its going to be a really sad day if the board agree’s…which they probably will, money is money.

To answer the question on Mango…..they are well ahead of their projections and are trading in the black. What’s interesting to note here is if a comparison is done on SAA’s domestic passenger numbers for February 06 vs Feb 07,there about a 4% growth- given the fact that Feb 06 also included GRJ which is not the case in Feb 07 this figure is all the more interesting. So if Mango is not hurting SAA then where are these pax coming from?

Here is another angle about why pilots that are flying heavy metal get paid more. What does it cost in training to replace an FO or a Capt, in comparison to the salary , it is far more important to maintain a steady workforce than to have to retrain a new one every week...by the way we are talking about big jets not fluffies.

Gee whiz....park the queen of the skies! Yikes that will be a sad day indeed!
Hopefully someone out there needs a few -400's as I and am sure a few others don't want to see them rot in the sunshine!
I know Oasis in HK is looking for a few......at a good price! But suppose that's another story!
So no A340-500's then. Wonder how that story came to light? Well lets hope the direction is a good one then...... like Boeing buying all of SAA's Airbuses and equipping the fleet with 777's and 787's :ok: ......even Virgin is going away from the 4 engines 4 longhaul! Yeeha......bring it on!
Now back to the recruitment on hold and slagging off the pilots' salaries bit...now where were we???????????

Yes, heard that too, something for the future perhaps.

I tend to agree- not on the Boeings, but the 2 versus 4 debate......seems a long way off at this point...:hmm:

madherb, I was not referring to the salary situation between Nationwide and SAA. As was pointed in an earlier post pilots cannot afford to be picky or choosy over airline jobs in this country. The point I was trying to make is that SAA is not the only international carrier in this country (as Divinehover seems to think)

I have got nothing against SAA whatsoever, and like most pilots in this country (whether or not they will admit it) it's the company I'd ultimately like to fly for.

Nonetheless, thats my 2c, will now go back to being an observer ;)