Experience and maturity
 

Toobadhowsad,

Must say, with all the experience you gained to allow you to "twiddle your thumbs", keeping your cool under pressure and measured response were deffinitely not on the list. You lost all credibility by rising to the bait and telling fellow aviators to "P@#s off".:=

Back to the topic: Does anybody have a reasonable idea when SAA will start recruiting again?:)

Sir O 'sis',

There was no intent to offer a measured response. I don't mince my words and did not feel that tact was part of the equation of getting the point across to you and your wannabees. It seems that an in-your-face approach is all that works for the SAA pilot bashers. And I was not telling my fellow aviators to p:mad:s off, just you and your mates. I have respect for my fellow aviators, including my many friends who fly for operators other than SAA!!

And back to the topic of SAA hiring, seeing as you missed that at the end of one of my previous posts, there will be no hiring for the forseeable future except for possibly those who have already received letters of appointment. SAA has not even put out the bi-annual CAT bid for the pilots because they have no idea what the fleet complement or requirements will be for July onwards. Until the Seabury consultants finalise the proposed 18 month business plan for reorganising SAA, plus the SAA board having to vote on it towards the end of the 3rd week of April, nobody at flight ops will have any idea if more pilots are needed.

Post a new thread around April 24th, 25th or thereabouts and I'll let you Pruners in on the gaff!!

Too bad
 

Chill Boet,

1. Not a wannabee. (Maybe once, not for a long time.I passed the walk on water test before you even joined your previous company. RA??)

2.I Don't begrudge you your salary. I earn more than you do and I also fly long haul a/c. including ETOPS across the North Atlantic.

3. Just an illustration that SAA need to shape up or ship out. Their kind of extravagent waste is NOT sustainable.

4. We used to have great fun together on NXX between MSU-JNB, even in the thunderstorms. (Remember when flying was FUN!) JA, I was there....

Don't take it personally, you are not responsible for the hole SAA has dug it'self.

Safe Flying

PS: I will now move to The SAA "BAS" fishing thread. :D

Seeing as this thread title is obviously code named "SAA salaries", for what it's worth...

SAA pilots are also tax payers, and do get pissed off about the R283 odd million that "slipped through the cracks" - of which I don't see the rest of the affronted tax payers on this thread taking a righteous stand about. Rumour has it that Seabury are looking at about R1.7 billion that should be around according to the in-depth examination of the financials, but apparantly seems to be awol.

And take a look at http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/ to figure out your own true worth....

Sir Osis, are your initials CR? Flying for Etihad?

Interesting reading
 

Hey Alternate Law, willflyforfood makes intersting reading.

Trust me, us tax payers want EVERYBODY's salary reviewed. Said before, this is NOT aimed at pilots only. And where ppl have had their hands in the cookie jar, sling there as:mad:s into jail!!!

Hey, I was just thinking - is it a coincidence that the SAA buildings are so close to those casino's?? :E Better check if some of those manager types are heading there on the sly..... :}

Taxpayers or Not..?
 

Having heard the tiresome "Bun Fights" about Taxpayers rights and not, I thought the detail below would put everything into perspective.

Thereafter it is up to each individual (SAA and non SAA) to make his/her own assumptions with regards to "who" pays for what at SAA.

(Note: I chose not to contribute this to the SAA Basher Thread)

SARS Income during 2006-2007 Financials (paid to date): R 493bn
PAYE Contributions to R 493bn total: R140bn (28.39%)

Company Contributors: 1 Million Companies
Self Employed Individuals: 350 000 People
PAYE Contributors: 6 Million People

Assumptions made (for Statistical purposes):
SAA Bailout at average of R 3.5bn per Financial Year
All PAYE Contributors footing an equal share of the Bailout (I know this is Theoretical)

PAYE Individual Contribution to SAA yearly Bailout: R 165.61

:E

Yes very true.:ok:

...but its not quite that simple.

PAYE Individual Contribution to SAA yearly Bailout: R 165.61

I would rather see my R165.61 build a hospital or school

R165.61 would fund about 10% of one tyre for the Porsche............

although I heard your ma se porche is a whole lot cheaper...:E

Another way to spend R1.3 billion
 

I think SAA carries around 7 mill pax, so if I gave R190 to each passenger and told them to go fly somewhere else i would be better off? That is kinda scary math.

Or gave a subsidy to the other airlines to the same value ie: Link about R160 mill. SAX nealy R200 mill. Not sure what the pax figures for the other airlines are, but man, I am sure that would drive salaries up.

Dont forget SAA got R4 bill last yr.

Avi8tor,

Stop being so negative,you make yourself very unhappy chap!!

Only 165 rand, I think we should be paying twice as much, that way I can upgrade my golf membership to include weekends...come on guys lets all join the gravy train before the money the government steals the lot.

Once the money to SAA stops flowing all you will see is no new schools and hospitals but new BMW 4x4 for the politicians.

Let me see if I got this right.
We will cut the service but keep the same price structure?
So for the same money I can fly Comair / Nationwide AND get a meal, magazine etc. (and helpful flight attendants).
Or for the same service I can fly CHEAPER ( and stil get helpful flight attendants) on One Time or Kulula…
Don’t need to pay a consultant to see where my money will go.
R.I.P. S.A.A.

What is so scary to me is that the aviation industry as a whole is going from strength to strength. All areas are just booming. Why with so much government funding is there such a contradiction at SAA? It can only mean absolute squander in all departments. A few other airlines in SA have boasted best results in highly competitive markets this last year!!! Go figure:confused:

Well said TooBadSoSad.........it all boils down to 'sour grapes'!!

Yes, that must be it - you got it in one! And incredibly, nobody else thought of that obviously completely-true-for-all-cases fact either!

{Bites tongue instead of typing out full intended reply detailing the gross failures of both logic, and indeed even eyesight, in this case}

{sigh} :rolleyes:

I suppose if you guys keep repeating that often enough, one day you'll make it true for all cases.... :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: Just a question, did you even read this thread through?

Yes, you can get a meal on Nationwide...

In fact, since the 17th January 2007 you can even get a Sandwich on a Nationwide Economy Class ticket - Just pass your R20 to the Flight Attendant and enjoy your Sandwich. :oh:

:E

Thank you for helping me there Q4NVS. Last time I flew Nationwide, about 5 years ago, they served very good meals. So how would Nationwide price compare?
I see the spin doctors got to you Hi – Flyer....
I guess no one as blind as he who don’t want to see…..:cool:

Like most of the proud North American airlines that have gone "under", we can blame SAAPA with their extravagant pay demands for a lot of SAA's problems!!! Their attitude has always been " PROBLEMS, WHAT PROBLEMS - JUST INCREASE MY FAT SALARY AND THE PROBLEMS WILL GO AWAY!!":\

Sadly
 

Sadly 'the increase my fat salary' attitude is not only a pilot problem at SAA. Tend to think that its a top to bottom problem.

Run it like a business!!!!

777Sandman, pray tell, then why did you join Emirates? Definitely not for the money right , (oh, yes, I forgot. You coudn't get into SAA because of affirmative action).

JETNUT sounds like this is a case of I got in you didnt - nananananaaaa:p

does this mean you are one of those walk on water arrangant types?
777sandman probably saw the light looong before you did. I wonder who is more nervouse about keeping his job right now.:uhoh:

what a waist of space this thread has now become, you guys sound like 5 year olds!!! You should all grow up, then you might realize that SA aviation is on the down hill, where it is booming all over the world, in SA the conditions are getting worst from one airline to the other. With the current shortage of crews world wide you should all be getting fat salaries not moaning about SAA's pay package. Frankly at the rate of pay at Nation wide, there are cabin crew at other airlines that get paid more, there are airlines in 3rd world airlines that are flying better equipment. Brand new airports in Asia that are 10 times bigger than JNB with more growth potential.

Agree on all points Frogman, and Jetnut, before going of at 777 Sandman, you did an awful lot of enquiry into QR on a previous thread. Made it no secret that you are seriously considering the option! So why the loyalty now? Maybe got knocked backed??


Tongue in cheek:
Asian eagle I agree “JETNUT sounds like this is a case of I got in you didnt – nananananaaaa” or Jetnut is female, and should wait a couple of days before posting ( would explain why she had a couple of mood swings while posting within a couple of minutes on various threads, and also why she don’t see Affirmative Action as a stumbling block )

ByAirMail...yes I've been offered many jobs all over the world, and everytime I research it further it only makes me appreciate the state of affairs we as pilots enjoy in South Africa. At the end of the day we have basic human needs and one can't only consider flying hi-tech machinery in the equation, look at the external environment as well.

Thats why it tends to irritate me when I read postings by narrow minded individuals who have no clue about the bigger picture, living their simple lives in a tiny cocoon; yet, have the audacity to attempt an opinion on matters far beyond their grasp.

If you don't like being in a certain environment/situation/country, then do something about it, remove yourself from the negativity (instead of whinging/bitching/moaning)...internal locus of control.

What happens to pilots or any other employee for that matter, in countries with inferior labour laws, makes even flying a 172 in the Kruger National park seem attractive.... (and I'm not saying that because its the middle of the month either!)

Hey J-Nut,

Not normally one to get involved, but being totally exasperated by your utter ignoramousness, I feel compelled to respond.

Let's disect your argument: "no clue about the bigger picture - living in a cocoon", or words to that effect. Would that be the same cocoon that shields you from horrific crime statistics, rampant HIV rates, corruption on a biblical scale, gross public mismanagement, political uncertainty (or political inevitability) and socialist levels of taxation (but without the social benefits)? I hope I'm not being too audacious...

You might be enjoying your cushy existance at present, but believe me, when the powers-that-be are through with you (after an expensive consultation), there is going to be much grinding of teeth and eroding of terms and conditions. You are going to give and they are going to take - it is the only hope for SAA's survival. And if you think for an instant that our flowery constitution and "labour laws" are going to protect you, you in in for a very rude awakening.

You boys are in dire straits - best you get used to working for a living. I suppose its hard to read the writing on the wall when your back is up against it...:ouch:

Khaya's pay
 

Was reading News24 this morning: http://www.news24.com/News24/South_A...091514,00.html

And that for a loss-making airline! Ouch! :} :} :}

Toobadtoosad, Can you please enlighten me on which field SAA comes in hands down with EK, and CX...time to command? Salary package? 3 crew across the pond...please let me know what you are talking about...maybe you are referring to the stuff that goes missing from your flight bag while you are having your rest.

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Frogman, it shows how sad your life is when time to command and money is all that drives you.

Time to command is only important when you want to leave your current carrier, not when you are happy with where you are. Fact is, SAAPA would prefer to have pilots leaving SAA for other airlines, but these days nobody is leaving!! Why?? Because our pay is excellent, our benefits are excellent, we fly with pilots we can relate to and socialise with and most of all, we live in South Africa, a country we love, even with all the crime and other BS.

If you are happy working for Arabs or Chinese then good for you, but I am not. Quality of life is far more important to me than dragging my family off to a desert because of an early command and big bucks. And speaking of big bucks, I just went on holiday with some ex-SAA Emirates Captains and, with your 34% inflation, I don't quite qualify your income as big bucks, as they admitted!!

Fact is, when you take leave you bugger off to a country other than your domicile.............when we take leave we either stay home or visit other parts of the country we live in. So who has the screwed up priorities???:ouch:

Answer this: Are you going to retire where you currently work or in another country? Because I am already living my retirement here right in good 'ol SA!!!

Too Bad,
It's obvious that you are very content at SAA and that's great - why leave for something inferior?

It might be worth noting however, that other airlines with extremely strong union and legislative protection such as United, Delta, American, Northwest, US Airways, Alitalia and Swiss either took deep paycuts or lost massive amounts of pension money - not to mention jobcuts as well. Ask a Quantas F/O how long it takes to upgrade these days and you'll find the subject changing very quickly.

Point is, if it can happen to these carriers, what makes SAA immune to cutbacks?

We've also all heard that old chesnut about how productive SAA flight ops is when justifying T&C's, but that's a bit like saying you were only a waiter on the Titanic and that you cannot be held responsible for hitting the iceberg. True. But that doesn't mean you're not going down with the ship...

Too Bad... before you shoot such a broad statement I think you should stop and think that not everyone sees SA through the same rose glasses. To make some facts straight, I do live where I want to retire...Australia! At 3% inflation , I'm still earning the bucks and plus I can go on holiday anywhere in Australia and not worry if my BM is going to get stolen...So yes my quality of life is better than you think, so please do not make a statement saying that SAA is the best...that is the reason why the rest of the non SAA pilots hate you guys...you come across as being very arrogant and ignorant on the other pilots conditions.
If you are happy at SAA thats great, but trust me SAA is not the best job out there by any means of the imagination, and SA is most definatly not in the top places to live!

To all the cynics, prophets of doom, individuals with perpetual chips on their shoulders and not forgetting frogman and crew.....

I reject your reality and substitute it for my own :}

A lesson in perception:

Perceptions are created from beliefs. Beliefs are formed throughout a person's life based on their education, background, and knowledge, steered by their personality traits. For example, if people in a dark room are looking at a round object lit by a beam of light, some see only a crescent, others a half-moon, some only darkness, whilst some may even see the full lit object.

When you understand the fact that the reality of life is percieved by each person differently, it's easy to think, or free your mind to accept other points of view without frustrating yourself or sounding like an utter moron.

The basic bulding blocks of perception, belief; can be changed/updated/evolved, only by education, coupled with a desire to change. That's probably why many people outside of South Africa don't understand how people with such strong cultural diversity can actually survive so successfully. The one's who have created barriers and thrive on a resistance to change will eventually leave (or have left, in a crazed effort to replicate their past). By latching on to negativity (crime, HIV, etc.), these people subconsciously create reasons to substantiate and verify their false perceptions of reality, (although, yes I agree that these are very real problems in SA, but then if we didn't have these issues, we'd be living in a Utopia). These people eventually become satisfied with the conclusions they draw, only by rejecting alternative sources of information.

History has proved that skewed realities created by perceptions based on faulty beliefs can be detrimental (slavery, holocaust, apartheid, etc, etc.)

The defence rests, your honour.

Jet nut
You should be a politician.....I have read your post and find it devoid of conviction save for the fact that you appear you to want to patronise us from a dizzy height. I don't reject everything you say because there is some merit in it but it smacks of post-modern mumbo-jumbo that's constantly being thrown at us by media etc.

I guess in the middle of what you are trying to say - you're saying that SA is a good place - a success story if you will. I agree SA is a great place from people, to climate to geography, and more importantly there are some massive achievements of the last few years particularly the economy.

But to many South African's crime is a daily reality, HIV/AIDS policy is an unmitiagted disaster. Does that make me have a false perception of reality? Or can I call a spade a spade?

I thought we were meant to be discussing SAA - my view is that a very successful blue print for SAA has already been established 20+ years ago when Lord King took over BA under the Thatcher government and it was privatised in 1987, the IPO being over-subscribed several times.

The problem we have in SA is that the govt don't want to take tough decisions and sort SAA out. They have stated policies of privatisation but because the govt contains elements of COSATU and the bloody Communists :ugh: policy in this area will be weak and watered down....hence SAA rumbles on in the same old loss making way, with leadership that has no one to hold it to account, and which is effectively underwritten by taxpayers of SA.

Because SAA has no real pressure to deliver and effectively is considered to be above "the law" finanically - there is no moral imperative for them to take the steps necessary to create a good airline. Had say a private company made a R6bn hedging mistake they would have had to bear the consequences.....SAA got away scot free. This is unhealthy.

I'm reminded of a quite by the economist Adam Smith

J-Nut,
Apart from the plagiarized Adam Savage quote and a chapter or two from your philosophy 101 textbook (how's UNISA these days?), I would agree with most of your post.

Right up until the point that you are on the receiving end of a high velocity lead package delivered by a gainfully employed illegal immigrant whilst exiting your secure complex in that shiny 3-Series Beemer.

Or am I creating a false perception? I guess we'll never know, seeing as there is a moratorium on published crime statistics. Sure, bad things happen the world over, but a least they are outraged/shamed/embarrassed enough to splash it all over their front pages and politicians/CEOs are actually held accountable for their (in)action. What a novel idea.

"my suitecase is packed"

.....wanna come with pleeeeeease !!! Will carry your suitecase for you !!!!