Divinehover - you said "SAA pilot salaries are not where they are due to good luck. They applied a mutually aggreed apon formula based on various domestic and international carriers (yes we are an international carrier unlike the rest of you). Nationwide is also intercontinental, if thats what you mean, plenty of cross-border, hence international carriers in SA.We fly further, longer, Plenty of domestic pilots in SA would like a change and fly long-haul.in bigger, more advanced aircraft Plenty of them would take a pay cut to fly better equipment, too. And plenty would prefer staying in five-star hotels in civilised places like Paris and London rather than African hotels in Livingstone or Luanda.than the rest of the locals. We get paid more because we are the standard in this country. Our pilot group as a whole is the most experienced and professional this continent has. Plenty of locals with the required experience would do an SAA pilots job for nearly half the SAA salary. Plenty of new RDP pilots at SAA with far less experience than a lot of the local guys. As for the 'difficulty in replacing big jet pilots, break out of your SAA 15-years-to-command mindset and look north to Europe and the ME to see how easily it is done. I fly a big jet and probably have less hours than a lot of Fluffy pilots in SA.

PS. If anyone was surprised at the lack of modesty in this post.? Don't be.Not surprised at all:cool:

DJ, when you say how can there be a revised schedule if the consultants from Seabury are still busy analysing the entire operation. Additionally, my understanding is that the consultants will be presenting their report on the B744 fleet to the board on the 4th of April, so taking the above two points into consideration I don't see how you can conclusively say the fleet will be exited?? However, my gut feel is that the B744 is on its way out.

MISSED the point
 

I think the thread has gone wild!!! This is not to bash SAA or my many friends there!!!!

This is about getting a healthy long term future for the industry. SAA needs to be made profitable and privatised. Same for SAX and Mango. We need a level playing field.

Once that happens, the strongest business model will win out. There will be some pain to start with, but it will lead to more jobs and better average salaries for all, long term.

I am have to laugh at the group that think, as pilots, we are gods. That they deserve a huge tax payer subsidise salary and everybody else needs to take the cut to made SAA profitable.

Sorry guys, its gotta be cuts top to bottom. The airline will go broke whoever goes on strike, check-in staff, cabin or pilots. And my I remind u that there are loads of ppl waiting to take the jobs.

JG1 OK JG1 I will pass it on to management just PM me your details I am sure you will get a A340 command as soon as they learn you are out there, how shortsighted of SAA not to have you on the payrole, who needs a seniority list its just a pain to the company I mean why make someone like you with your obvious flying skill sit behind some old fart who has been flying around the world for the last 15 years, unfair I tell you.

DJ the consultants are probably the best thing to happen to SAA in a very long time, it seems they are here to see the implimentation of some of the ideas as well, not just recommend, and yes hard decisions will have to be made, the unions will go beserk....but if thats the way it has to be, so be it, the pilot body has been asking for this kind of thing for a long time we just want a healthy profitable SAA and a future we can look forward to, in retrospect I can see what you were saying that the fleets might shrink initially, as long as when/if we become profitable they see the obvious need to expand again, thats if we want to compete and be a global player, everyone else is expanding so best we dont miss the boat.

CJ750
 

It is amazing how this thread has wound its way through various subjects and how many airline managers we have participating. Why don't you all walk in and take over. SAA will always take flak being the airline around which South African Aviation revolves which ever way you try and look at it. Why does Fluffyfan get his back up so quickly.

I agree there are many more problems that we all pretend to know about but don't slag somebody who is offering an opinion/suggestion when you are not a manager yourself. This gives everyone especially the SAA PILOT HATERS guild a push. Are SAA pilot salaries not a cost to the airline however small/big they are.

Give the process a chance and see what comes about . Nobody likes to see pilots out of work but when you start saying airline pilots are the only professional pilots around then i start to worry. Certain contributions certainly give me the impression that SAA pilots are the only pilots that are good enough and any one else is lower than shark sh:mad:... and should not be contributing to this discussion. Everyone is free to offer an opinion but certain guys on this thread think that if you don't work for SAA then you don't have a brain.

Guys lets wait and see but unfortunately AFRICA has a reputation , and this looks like it is following suit. NEGATIVITY> See previous thread on this forum.

JGI...you are over paid for what you do because I know people that will do your job for nothing just to get experiance...does that mean you are over paid.:ugh: :ugh:

Found this on the other forum...........

CJ750 sorry to hear of your distress, but please tell me you dont suscribe to JG1's point of view, it sounds like he is advocating that we fire half the pilots at SAA because they are horribly overpaid, the solution is to hire young guys like himself who are willing to work for a third of the salary, I mean as Avi8tor said
What clever solutions, best we let British Airways/Quantas/United/Delta/American/Lufthansa/Air New Zealand/Cathay , know of the obvious way out to high pilot slaries.

I am really not going to discuss the seniority list system, but it should be fairly self explainatory why young guys are getting comands early in Europe and the middle East, not because Airlines have discovered that you dont need to wait a long time for command, but because there such an incredible shortage of pilots especialy experienced pilots over there.

JG1 you are an asset to your company VB must have a little chuckle every time he is buying a new sports car or when he is having a drink on the balcony of his mansion, he must be extreamly happy he has guys like you in the company, no labour problems, you must think the Nationwide salaries are quite adequate, how did you get in did you stand at the Nationwide HQ with a sign saying "Will Fly For Food"?

(sorry 4HP I know I am on the verge of getting the boot but could not help it)

The problem with SAA is that it has not grown like the rest of the airlines in the world. Why do you think CX EK QF etc are all buying more hardware. Cx has to expand at 7-8% per year to maintain the profit it has got used to EK is the same.

I say sack the top leadership for incompetence and get proper airline people to fix it...no Andrews please.

Come-on Frogman. Do you seriously believe that a 747 sim costs more to operate than a 737 sim? The base training might be more expensive, but hell, it only happens once.
Maybe SubsonicMortal because that is a hell of a lot of money........
Its no myth fluffy, and don't tempt me to post your scales.
Like I said before. I don't believe that anything will be solved by making SAA pilots take a paycut (except maybe wind in their collective overconfident necks;) (just joking - many mates there)). The problems at SAA goes way beyond what they pay their pilots. The one thing is true. If SAA salaries are drastically reduced, they will need to train a lot of pilots to replace their experienced crew who WILL leave for more money. That would cost a packet.
My final plea to the SAA drivers. Don't try to justify your salaries. Take your money and buy your Porsches and just keep quiet about it. It solves nothing to get into an argument about how awesome you are and how SAA recognised this from a CV and invited you to an interview. I also know that your dad/uncle/brother/SAAF mate had nothing to do with this. The guys I know in SAA are the usual mix. 99% great guys and 1% completely useless idiots - same as in my current airline.
A word of warning to the SAA doom-prophets. If SAA folded, there would suddenly be 800 highly experienced pilots on the market and you would be stuck in your current job for a long, long time.

Nicely put Nugpot - good comments. R80K per month? Thats DOUBLE what a senior Nationwide Captain earns, just for example. Nationwide being the 'low' side of the equation of course. And, when you look at it (on the domestic side at least), a Nationwide Captain does the same *kind* of work (just more of it, in older aircraft - I hear they're quite quick with the QRH :) )

It's the comments like: "They applied a mutually aggreed apon formula based on various domestic and international carriers (yes we are an international carrier unlike the rest of you). We fly further, longer, than the rest of the locals. We get paid more because we are the standard in this country. Our pilot group as a whole is the most experienced and professional this continent has." that bug me. It achieves nothing other than to piss other people off. If you've got nothing to add (other than how legendary you feel you are), then rather leave it I reckon.

Besides the salary sidetrack, and back to the topic, is there some kind of time-frame for this 'freeze'? Or is it indefinite at the moment?

I suppose as long as it takes the consultants to undertake their findings within the airline. I've heard stories that they'll be here for around 2-3 months. So with that in mind and if any form of go ahead is given to unfreeze the recruitment then that's what we'll be looking at!!!!!!!!!!!
And unfortunatley we'll always get those arrogant individuals who think that they're the only ones allowed into the hallowed halls of aviation........the word skygod springs to mind here!!! Shame!!! So be it!
Who knows maybe he calls himself Figjam..... F:mad: k I'm good, just ask me!!
:p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p
Back to the topic................................:zzz: :zzz:

Oh dear back to the salary argument, firstly let me just state that everyone at SAA was where you guys are now, many ex Nationwide, SAX, Airlink etc pilots working for SAA, and I myself was a SAA hater, Skygods, arrogant etc, the tune does change when you get in understandably so.
I simply dont see why people working for other airlines feel the need to comment on the SAA pilots salaries, I am sure it is hurting SAA management, if we were paid half the amount we are getting now it would also hurt management, thats because they cannot run the company properly, the SAA salaries are but a drop in the ocean of the airline expenses but I am sure managemnet would love to cut them and blame the pilots for all there woes, unfortunatley for them that is not the case. The salaries are part of the equation that they have to manage, you need pilots to fly aircraft, could you imagine if SAA went to Boeing and said those lease costs are ridiculous, we dont care if its what everone else pays to lease an aircraft it just ridiculous and we are cutting the lease payments by 30%.........Boeing would give SAA a fat toffee

Yes 80k per month is a whole lot of money and I wish I was getting that but I am not far enough up the seniority list yet, the salaries of pilots at SAA was not always good, not too long ago it was horrible, however it has taken lots of time and negotiation and legal expenses to get where the salaries are today, 80k a month is alot, but my neighbour who has been out of varsity for 3 years and is a SAP programmer takes home in excess of 50k per month (takes home) so he is paid approx 90k per month.... Part of the parity agreement (and we do not have parity by the way) is to consider equvalent positions outside of the airline, and its a huge complicated formula.

SAA guys are paid well, but is it too much or are the rest of the airline guys in SA paid to little? the only reason SAA salaries are where they are, is that the pilots at SAA have stood together with 100% membership to the union and demanded a fair wage. Nationwide and others are ripping there pilots off they are exploiting you because they know they can, because you do not stand together and will do nothing but maybe grumble to yourselves a little.

Thats it I will comment no more on the salaries, I am done trying to make you guys understand, as I have said in numerous posts above, most of the pilots I have spoken to would take a pay cut if it was necessary, but pilot salaries are not responsible for the woes of the company. The SAA pilots are not horrible greedy individules who all drive Porsches (I drive a Tazz by the way), we are just like the rest of you, and nugpot we dont keep mentioning our salaries, it keeps coming up and attacked, why justify our salaries......because its worth justiflying we have worked long and hard to get what we have.

Mate, 80 K a month is not enough!!! They pay more in India flying for Jet airways, and that is for a year 1 Captain.:D :D

And Yes believe it or not it does cost more to train a 400 pilot than a 737. To start the 400 sim is far come complex than the 737 and therefore costs a lot more to buy. The crew that are training the crews cost more and therefore your training as a whole costs more. Your base training will also cost more try 7-10 tones of fuel an hour for the 400 just for starters.

SAA's B747-400 simulator is a zero flight time certified sim!! Therefore no base training is required.

Look,

All you guys bashing the national carrier- jealousy does make you nasty- i would love to get into to SAA but having said that any airline will do at this stage, in SA. Do i think the salaries are fair, yes! For whichever airline you get into- you signed the contract and you knew what you were going to earn before you got into it, everyone has every right to b*&^, i do too but at the end of the day its what you make of it, and the lucky ones are making alot of it. You just gotta try your best to join them or otherwise deal with your situation and try change it for the better....

As alot of people have said, if SAA retrench that spells big problems for all of us, especially now that the SA market is in the upswing, that would ruin it for everyone again, and possibly if everyone stood together at the other airlines maybe something would/could be done.

All i've ever wanted to do since day one was be an airline pilot- the salaries are alot better than most other flying jobs out there, plus most of the conditions are cushier too, so if someone anywhere would like to give up there position for me, please feel free,I'm not saying ill work for free i expect some sort of decent renumeration because im a qualified proffesional (apparently) but at least ill be at home more than now and ill do my best to shut up for a little while, but there are never any garuantees.:ok:

You said it ALL !!
 

Skywaiter,

You have summirized it all !!! Treat closed !

BIANCHI

Dag P..s!
 

SAA pilot salaries are not where they are due to good luck. They applied a mutually aggreed apon formula based on various domestic and international carriers (yes we are an international carrier unlike the rest of you). We fly further, longer, in bigger, more advanced aircraft than the rest of the locals. We get paid more because we are the standard in this country. Our pilot group as a whole is the most experienced and professional this continent has. The pilots are one of the few things keeping SAA together. SAA pilot salaries whether high or low will not inpact on SAA's botton line. That's up to Mr Erwin and who of his friends he wants to run SAA.
PS. If anyone was surprised at the lack of modesty in this post.? Don't be.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Divinehover, look at your text. Maybe now you can understand when we taxi past you you we greet you with "Dag P..s"!
The line I fly for earns a lot less than most other lines. When I taxi past them, I give a genuine hello-there wave. But "Spoories" with their condescending, better-than-you attitude, you get the middle finger!
So you believe you have "better aviators" flying for you. Kak!
If we are sent every 6 months to the simulator we would be exactly the same!
Oh yes, your point: We do go every six months, you don't. So we are better honed. The fact is correct, certainly. But, if you were privatized, there would no longer be every 6 months etc etc......you would have to make do like the rest of us MORTALS!
You use SITA, wow! Does Uncle Alec know what that costs?.......
The HUD systems........we can land when you can't. Is that the argument? Oh, do you mind refreshing our short memories about how professional you are, the George approaches, unlocked reversers, go around next to the runway etc.
The legions of aero planes SAA have lost over the years. Oh yes, it's not your fault! Sorry!! We knew what was on board but still went! We didn't know about the flap speeds, and it was night anyway....etc etc...... But compare us to X! We do..... to the Australian NATIONAL carrier. Bench-Mark in safety, for you anyway. Sum total of accidents: when she parked the nose of the 400 in the golf course......
We get paid more because we are the standard in the country.
What can I say?
I SEE NO REASON FOR A BLOODY FLAG CARRIER! Never have either.
The sum total of government involvement in commercial aviation should only be the ATNS and CAA. Intervene to guarantee that South Africans get the correct amount of slots. Stay out of commercial aviation as such! Concern yourself with "Brown-Aero planes", and leave the commercial stuff to the entrepreneurs!

The timing for restructuring is perfect. Get them fit and in shape for the World Cup 2010. I get the feeling this is their last chance. If they don’t post huge profit in 2010 /2011 I am afraid there is no place for them in this ever increasingly global game.

Now let me go downtown and spend my profit share.
Hope to see the normal S.A.A. crowd at the Hong Kong seven’s next week and hear their take after a LOT of Heineken.

P.S. At a Fleet Forum last week the D.F.O. said he was aiming at 50 B744 freighters as they can use them like yesterday. There is a couple of ex S.A.A. 400’s flying with CX already, and they have their eye on the rest of the S.A.A. fleet. These aircraft are all well maintained and have some nice bells and whistles.
The problem? Cannot train crew fast enough!!

"FF - the SAA pilots and Cabin Crew are probably the only people who have a vested interest in the future of SAA, everyone else is just there to rape and pillage and take what they can get."

Oh please FF, this is such BS..........Your statement is so typical "SAA (cabin) crew" almost neurotic. Maybe it's because the flying crew are so isolated from the rest of the company that they truly believe everybody else in the company is going all out to "get" them.............It's not true my friend.

The “other” staff are also working very hard to keep SAA going, each and everyone fearing the "chop" coming their way.....all of them important to the future of the company. Yes you have "dead wood" in all levels believing SAA owing them a living because of what ever reason. Your pale staff believing they are going to be on the forefront of the “chop” and your darker staff believing they’re “untouchable” both attitudes not conducive to a healthy work force.
You are all in this together and should stick together, if anybody out there believes about 3000 SAA staff just sitting around without work, you are very, very wrong assuming this. The cut will come, but I doubt if it will be that high.
Yes the SAA staff compliment could be leaner and “meaner” but working in SA everybody knows that the planning on paper does not necessary reflect the actual working conditions and worker tendencies. I believe sick leave, AWOL and transport “problems” being the more serious issues facing your company. How can you “cut” your workforce to be lean while keeping transformation on track and expecting operations to continue without any delays?
Heard from a friend of a friend of a friend………..a rumour really, that the subsistence allowances will be addressed shortly, Seabury want to drastically reduce your daily subsistence allowances.

You’re in for a rough patch and I do hope all my friends at SAA will be untouched but I seriously doubt it…………

E

PS CL……….:p

What are the consultants paid?
 

Does anybody out there know what the consultants
are charging? Are they earning a commision based on what
they find or are they on a flat rate?
Cheers:ok:

We live in a country where people are on strike demanding they be paid out for sick days not taken. WTF?!:eek: The attitude of entitlement will turn this into another goatscrew with productive workers being laid off and deadwood promoted. Those who keep the show on the road with their hard work and dedication will once again get the shaft while upper management grows ever more top heavy and less in touch with reality as the gravy train fills up. They have a chance to turn things around and make it work but I'm not holding my breath. It would be nice to be pleasantly surprised for a change, though...



Cynical? Moi...?:rolleyes:

Aha, so its all a money thing then?

Too right, doesn’t matter how many heads you cut this will still be there. Most of the time these types of indiscretions go unpunished due to very effective union intervention into the disciplinary process.

At some time in the negotiation process the unions are going to recognise that they can stall and demand to see all manner of documentation- that will gladly be provided- but fundamentally they are going to loose some comrades in this struggle. To cut the number who are going to go, they are already intimating that they are willing to make concessions in terms of benefits- even certain changes to their conditions of employment. Then it will be time to talk sick leave etc.

How to save money
 

What is fairly amusing is that Khaya chose to share his plan for saving costs and restructuring SAA at the ASATA Congress in Muldersdrift this past weekend. 300 people attended, only 1 arrived in a helicopter.

:mad: Real shocker- there are all the SAA sales people waiting for the boss on Thursday morning 09h00, so one of them asks him: "So Khaya, glad to see you made it through all that traffic", Khaya: "what traffic, used the helicopter to get here!" :eek: :eek: :eek: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: and he continued: “ its because I’m off to a meeting in Pretoria soon as I’m done” no one bothered to inform his highness that the Krugersdorp freeway is very quite that time of the day!!!

This is the same guy who at the top 100 manager’s meeting was giving the “we have to cut costs- no discretionary expenditure” etc etc. Wonder who signed off his purchase request at the cash conservation office- makes the whole thing a farce.

This guy just does not live in the real world.:ugh: :mad:

Yes DJ I agree!
But why are we suprised at his foolishness?:hmm:

Why shocked or surprised ? The chopper saga never stopped, rumour has it that the chopper does the pickup & drop off runs from the ARWYP heli pad.......not in SAA Technical as usual....away from those nosy SAA worker types......

E

Famous Quotes from Fluffyfan:-

“OK JG1 .. I am sure you will get a A340 command as soon as they learn you are out there, how shortsighted of SAA not to have you on the payrole, who needs a seniority list”
Fluffyfan, it’s ok thanks, I don’t need an A340 command. I’m quite happy with mine.

“please tell me you dont suscribe to JG1's point of view, it sounds like he is advocating that we fire half the pilots at SAA because they are horribly overpaid, the solution is to hire young guys like himself who are willing to work for a third of the salary”
JG1 actually said that the SAA pilots salaries are completely out of line with the rest of the industry in South Africa and suggested that if SAA pilots weren’t happy with taking pay cuts then plenty of local pilots would be happy to take over their jobs at the new pay scales.

“JG1 you are an asset to your company VB must have a little chuckle every time he is buying a new sports car or when he is having a drink on the balcony of his mansion, he must be extreamly happy he has guys like you in the company, no labour problems, you must think the Nationwide salaries are quite adequate, how did you get in did you stand at the Nationwide HQ with a sign saying "Will Fly For Food"?”
Sorry, you are ‘extreamly’ wrong, Fluff.

“I am really not going to discuss the seniority list system”
We didn’t ask you to. We weren’t discussing it. We were discussing pay scales.

“SAA guys are paid well, but is it too much or are the rest of the airline guys in SA paid to little? the only reason SAA salaries are where they are, is that the pilots at SAA have stood together with 100% membership to the union and demanded a fair wage.”
Ever heard of market forces? Funny how all the airlines in SA except SAA pay relatively equal salaries, but SAA stands out like a sore thumb at double what all the other guys are getting. SAAPA did demand, they held the airline to ransom, and got their demands. Only because SAA is government-funded did they get their demands – in a market-driven private airline they would have been shown a toffee themselves.

“SAA (pilots) salaries are but a drop in the ocean of the airline expenses”
Sure, at about R700 million a year?

“Thats it I will comment no more on the salaries, I am done trying to make you guys understand”
Wow, gee thanks for deigning to grace us with your most enlightened teachings, master. I am sure we will miss your youthful arrogant ignorance…..not.

Its been suggested that if SAA did cut salaries then the pilots would all flock elsewhere – I can’t see that happening. Where would they go? With no EU passports, no Green Cards, their options are to come to the Middle East, go to China or India – big moves for settled family men.

The facts are that SAA is a loss-making organization and that cuts have to be made at ALL levels, including the pilot pool. And the fact is that the SAA pilot pool has a lot of fat which can be safely trimmed from their salaries. And as I said earlier, if they don't like it, then there are plenty of other guys in SA who are competent enough, in many cases fly the same aircraft, to do their jobs at the cut price. Sorry if the truth hurts:cool:

SAA considers break-up, sale
27/03/2007 12:29


Johannesburg - The head of state-owned South African Airways said on Tuesday that he wants to break up the company and slash costs to help return it to profit, and may then sell some units.
Chief Executive Khaya Ngqula told a news briefing the airline would announce a restructuring plan in April, after sliding to a loss this financial year.

He said the company expects to lose more than R650m in the year to end March.

"We want to simplify the business by splitting up the company and creating clear profit targets for every unit," Ngqula said. "Some sections of the business might be privatised."

The company, which said it spent more than R20bn a year on staff perks and other discretionary items, said it would look at ways of cutting costs to help return it to profit.

SAA posted a 90% fall in profit last year as fuel costs rocketed and said it would only consider selling shares when it had reduced its debts.

South African privatisations have stalled over the past few years, with the government opting to use state entities to ramp up spending on infrastructure and help drive economic growth.

South Africa's public enterprises minister said in January an initial public offering of SAA could be years away and that the government had no plans to bail out the struggling airline.

""What is fairly amusing is that Khaya chose to share his plan for saving costs and restructuring SAA at the ASATA Congress in Muldersdrift this past weekend. 300 people attended, only 1 arrived in a helicopter.""

Khaya's spokesperson ,Sarah Uys claims that he paid for it from his own pocket???

702 news were going to run a story on how SAA is wanting to cut costs , retrench people etc while at the same time he is flying around Gauteng in a chopper going to various meetings. His spokesperson Sarah Uys claimed that he paid for the chopper himself.
Khaya then phone the head of news at 702 to tell him that there is no story to run as he paid for the chopper himself so the story was pulled.

If Khaya paid for the chopper himself he must be on a serious
package! Now we all know that he is obviously being paid a
fortune, but does anybody know how much he is actually earning?
To charter a chopper for a work conference and pay for it
yourself, that puts you in another league :oh:

Wonder if the paper trail on that one's been verified? Dip me in syrup and call me sceptical...:hmm:


Gizajob, Khaya mate....:E :ok:

Remember that Mr. KN is not all SAA's...

It might be well possible that he does pay for the Chopper rides himself, or through one of his many other Businesses or Directorships.

Only days ago it was reported that he holds in the region of 38 Directorships (because of his "on-demand" skill) :\

I don't think he would be foolish enough to have SAA pay for these, maybe one of the others...;)

The real question here should be, that if SAA was his ONLY responsibillity, would he not be able to spend more than 3% of his time actually running the business, without having to forever swing-wing off to another appointment?

On the other hand, imagine the "damage" if he had more time to spend on/at SAA :O

Solid Rust Twotter....
 

Pardon my interuption, but sick days are also mental health days and mental health days are just mini-vacations so why not get paid for the unused vacations days? Stay healthy, get paid for it....makes sense to me. Just pass the cost off to the damn customer like those corporate perks.

Aaaaah JG1 was wondering when you would respond.
Maybe JG1, thats because SA salaries are completely out of line with the rest of the world, the SAAPA/SAA parity agreement takes a number of factors into account including the salaries of comair, Kenyan Airways, equivalent position in the market place and many many other factors, SAA is a fairly large airline flying all over the world, not a small 1 man operation with 2 767's flying to London and back, compare apples with apples my friend, or maybe you would like to compare SAA salaries with the Charter operators like Fedair?
You actually have very little idea of how things work at SAA, as I have said time and time again, SAAPA negotiates with SAA on these things, SAA is the second oldest airline in the world, the pilot group has had a long time to organise themselves and negotiate the fair wage we receive today, the only thing protecting the pilots from management in the Union. SAAPA has never held anyone to ransom, they have conducted themselves within the law of South Africa, and it has cost Millions in legal proceedings, it has all been done by the book.
You need to talk to a few of my mates flying for some of the other airlines in SA, see if they think there salaries are fair.
Oh dear what are we to do? where can highly experienced airline pilots get a job, especially nowdays. Oh and your statement "come to the Middle East" may have given you away, I hear the pilots are leaving in droves, all happy in the desert are we?
Now I am truly tired of discussing SAA salaries with you JG1, you obviously have a large chip on your shoulder and are horribly jealous........The old "I am not ok, therefore you are not ok scenario" do you do CRM at your airline/charter operation.............its enough now, you are starting to look like a tool.

Champagne Lover...
You wonder why you never get the middle finger back? Because we wouldn't waste our time with an imbicile like you!!!
As to why you are not in the national airline...your language skills were probably not sufficient to get a suitable covering letter in, nevermind a CV.
As for your irreverence for passed fellow aviators who perished in situations you have no idea, grasp or understanding of...you probaby never were taught that by your father...oops sorry sore point!
As for your simulator time or lack of it...who needs a simulator when you have to cover emergencies every day as part of the job because you are flying barely airworthy aircraft.
Your lack of breeding and jealousy is as obvious as your lack of understanding of the meaning of the title of this thread.
I hope when you need our help, you aren't too bitter and twisted to ask...because we are professional enough to help any fellow pilot who needs it, and will put our feelings of revulsion against people like you aside.
So I hope your life improves pal!

DD777
 

That was beautiful.....I love you man. (ahem...in a metaphorical kind of way).