Could'nt agree more !!!
 

DD777

I could'nt agree more with Fat Reggies comment"that was beautifull" !!! Our dear champagne lover has clearly got a couple of minnor un re-solved childhood issues in his life,because for any FELLOW pilot( does'nt matter for which brand you are driving for, WE ARE ALL ONE) to make such nasty comments I think is just not acceptable. And to greet you "DAG P..S,that is just simply poor !!!!!!! Shame on you Champagne Lover is this really who you are ???
And yes I do fly for SAA, and just for the record I have flown for each and every other carrier in this country eccept Comair(and for some that has closed down aswell)and I have only came across-deal with bladdy good people.

Sorry!!OFF this thread topic-plse pardon me !!

To get back to the topic - it has been mentioned - those with letters of appointment are on track to join, and if my sim roster is anything to go by, training is pretty much flat out for the forseeable future.

Not even the hatchet chaps of Seabury can stop those A343's from all coming home before July this year...

And please b#gger off about salaries - go fight on another thread.

You hit the"nail"right on the"head"by saying: ''B#gger the salaries"and get back to the topic of this thread.
This is not a mud sligging contest about what a SAA pilot earns versas what they should earn according to the"non SAA-pilots" !!!

The issue of pilot Pay cannot be left out when referring to the financial viability of SAA. How does this company that consistently make a loss afford to pay such exorbitant salaries. I understand they vary from over 300k for a boy pilot, to well over a million bucks for a senior Captain.

It's certainly good for the pilots and they should not be bashed for that, WHo does not want to be there? However from a business perspective it certainly does not make sense.

If you look at the 2006 financials you will see that staff costs were R3bn, Pilots who make up 7% of the staff complement got away with R900 million (excluding benefits) which amounts to close to 30%

In the broader sense the total operating costs were around R19 Billion, and therefore pilot salaries were around 5% which is not an area that can be overlooked in a business sense.

The issue of parity is highly debatable. Can we as South Africans afford to compare our earnings with the first world and their stronger currencies??? If anyone can get it right, it's SAAPA. Congratulations SAAPA.

In any event that is a national airline for a country that's about to host the soccer world cup and we can expect some substantial Capital Injection from the Government soon.

What part of get back to thread and b#gger the talk of salaries do you not understand?

A rumuor that is going around is that SAA's demise is intentional, Khaya, who is a prominent business person has been tasked to get SAA to the point that the government will have no option but to sell it at a ridiculous price. The likely bidders? One of them is Bidvest and khaya apparently is one of the BEE partners there.

Makes you wonder, why would a prominent businessman, who was estimated to be worth around R50 million during the time of his divorce take up a civil servant position.

738's
 

I heard that the lease on the 738's was up halfway through the world cup and they have done nothing to renew them despite a firm nudge from the boys at Boeing to remeind them...Anyone heard that as well?

JG1 - sour grapes? :rolleyes:

Just out of interest and keeping to the thread topic!!!!

Did anyone hear from SAA yesterday or does anyone know of any guys/girls called yesterday???

Seems like they mean what they say then about the recruitment situation.

I'm sorry but are the SAA guys attacking you or are you guys attacking the SAA guys.
:mad: They get paid what is in their contracts ...leave it at that. You get paid what you have signed for , you fly a different type of operation to the SAA guys, accept that you get paid more for flying to remote corners of the world...that is the way it works in the industry world wide...now stop bitching on what others are getting paid it is their pay NOT YOURS!!!!:= := :=

Personally, SAA pilot salaries (and indeed all of SAA's expenses of course) are of direct interest to me as a taxpayer actually. But I'm not going to attack anyone about that.

I'd rather pay less than more if it's all the same to you, taxwise that is. I don't get that much to start with, and seeing just under 30% disappear to tax is quite crippling. Any reduction on this sort of state expediture is good, and if it means seeing salaries at SAA reduced, you won't see me getting upset. It's nothing personal, I just don't enjoy paying tax unnecessarily.

About the tax...crap mate!!! If it was about the tax you would be going on about the pay of the ministers that do nothing all day , the government corruption, the underpaid policeman and the lack of security that your tax should be paying...Mate I do not buy that this is about your tax dollar...what minute percentage of the government tax income is going towards the SAA pay ( the square root of f all). :ugh: :ugh:

Not having a go at you mate but even if SAA went private tomorrow do you think you are going to get a tax cut...I'm sure you know the answer to that

BRAVO
 

Anyone read any of CJ750's many replies? Just read some of them. Almost 75% of them have something negative about SAA in them...although I think there was one that asked something about if they were hiring this year! Me thinks you shouldn't apply though...you don't want to get any anyway hey? "Mate";)
I'm sure KN would love to have you at SAA...you seem to fit the profile of all the goodfellas up in the management who know exactly what they are doing and doing such a good job at that! Go get it "mate"
Good for a laugh though!

Keep to the thread?

Attitude
 

Champagne Lover, after reading DD777's last comment, maybe you arn't too far wrong.:ok:

I would have a go at the politicians if this was an appropriate forum for it, but it's about aviation. And ultimately, any wasted tax money adds up. Sure, we wouldn't see an immediate tax cut if SAA was profitable - but that would be the aforementioned silly politicians at work, wouldn't it? And like I said, it all adds up...to claim that it's irrelevant just because it's just a drop in the bucket defeats the point.

Quoted from the other site:

TA Flame Lily!

Now I am beginning to understand the big picture.

ps: all you lot whinging about the SAA pilots pay, they deserve
it. Why? Because they negotiated it, too bad and sorry for you
if you are being paid 1/10 what they are. You signed your contracts
and agreed on the T's and C's.
Now get over it and let life go on. :ouch:

I would have a go at the politicians if this was an appropriate forum for it, but it's about aviation. And ultimately, any wasted tax money adds up. Sure, we wouldn't see an immediate tax cut if SAA was profitable - but that would be the aforementioned silly politicians at work, wouldn't it? And like I said, it all adds up...to claim that it's irrelevant just because it's just a drop in the bucket defeats the point.

Let me understand you would have a go at politicians if this was an appropriate site so instead you are having a go at where the politicians are spending your tax money. Last I looked this is an Aviation site!

Saa's package is bellow international standards for airline pilots flying that equipment internationally...end of story, so what if they are higher than Nation wide or Sax etc. Compare Apples with Apples!!

The problem is not their salary but the management of the airline. Sure privatize the beast and see if it floats, but that is a different story.

Perhaps you're misunderstanding me - your point seemed to be that SAA salaries are none of my business. I maintain that as a taxpayer, SAA's non-profitability is of interest to me. If salaries are looked at (eventually, obviously there are more pressing concerns) to return it to profitability, I would consider that logical. That is all. You also seemed to argue that because the billions of Rands of support given to SAA was a small amount when compared to the total expenditure of government, that it was irrrelevant. I disagree with that. Nonetheless, while I won't say that there's something so special about SAA pilots that they deserve such notably higher salaries than anybody else in the local industry (there have been one or two rather arrogant posts about that in this thread), that is what they have negotiated for, and what's in their contract, so I have no personal 'fairness' issues' with that. Like you say, we all signed our own contracts.

Shrike200 If you take the political issues out of the equation, because a lot of people are using the tax thing as a quick scape goat to have a go at a Salary that is higher than his.

What a lot of people do not take into account is that flying internationally around the world does bring on more challenges and different issues than flying around South Africa where your infrastructure is to 1st world standards and fairly easy.

For years pilots operating in deep dark Africa were getting paid more due to the danger of flying there, so it also right that SAA pilots get paid more for the type of operations they are doing?

Type of operations? You mean being chauffeured in an airconditioned bus from your 5 star hotel to the airport to fly your airborne cinema to international first world airports with full facilities? Gotta be rough, that:{
Compared to the guys flying in darkest Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan etc its a bit tame. Keep a balanced perspective.

Firstly which schedule operator is currently flying in Iraq Afghanistan?

Secondly when was the last time you de iced or did a Cat 3B approach, fly in to an airport like JFK, Heathrow, operated on a contaminated runway. When was the last time you were 1000nm from a suitable diversion field? When did you do a landing in a Typhoon?
When did you sit on board for 10-12 hours and then do a landing on the back of the clock?
I bet you don't even know what equipment you need to do RVSM! What about a GPS approach?

Please do not tell me that flying around SA is the same as flying to all corners of the world.

Yeah, last time I sat in the back as SLF during de-icing, I really got scared - dammit another 5mins of extra Sudoku time just added...:}

When was the last time you did a Non-Precision Approach in terrential rains with a 300 Hr Co-Pilot?

When was the last time you landed on a runway which has a "new" pothole on every arrival?

This whole "Mine is bigger/tougher than Yours" is getting a bit boring now!

Thought the original thread was about Recruitment at SAA..

:eek:

Ladies and Gents,

The last time I flew with a 300 hour co-pilot in a war-torn third world country with de-mining units working next to the Apron in Angola or using an unofficial "company" GPS let-down through a sand storm in Afghanistan was about 10 years ago. Not to mention dodging huge Charlie Bravos between Maseru and JIA in a B1900C for Air Lesotho (No guessing who I worked for??) with no autopilot or flight director and with the occasional approach directly through an area of torrential downpour!!

Now I am working for SAA and feel that I am worth every cent I'm paid - and why? Because what I gained operating for the military, UN, Red Cross, charter operators and commuter airlines before SAA hired me, together with my three years of long range P3 flying and 4 years of short range P2 flying and now 3 years of long range P2 flying at SAA, has collectively given me a wealth of experience that allows me to sit and twiddle my thumbs for 6 or 7 or 8 hours on every long range flight because the day the sh:mad:t hits the fan, all that experience will come into play and allow me to make the best possible decision and react in the best possible way that all that previous experience has collectively primed me for.

So I sympathise with those, including many of my own friends, who fly for operators who do not pay as much as SAA does, but we all make our choices in life and if you are not working for SAA then that was either your choice or your destiny, but don't keep bashing away at SAA pilots when most of us have come from your ranks!
And sure times are changing at SAA - In fact, the SAA pilots union has, for over three years, offered management a reduction in entry level salaries because the union feels that the salaries are too high and the pay scales too flat, as well as due to the reduced entry level requirements for certain designated groups of pilots, but SAA management has yet to act on this for whatever reason they may have.

Now going back to the topic, there will be no hiring at SAA for the forseeable future. All pilots with letters of employment will still be taken but everyone else is on hold!! Unfortunately, it looks like SAA will have to shrink a bit, consolidate, and then possibly start expanding again.

Post of the Week Award:ok: - I'm not taking sides (honest) but this is the kind of bloke that this site is meant to serve. Now quit the whinging, get your head down (I don't care what colour you are) and get where he is. It doesn't mean you need to work for SAA - we all have our place in the sky and in the current qualification shortage we can all get where we're going.

Well done 2BSS - you made it. The rest of us are right behind you. 4HP

I believe that collective agreements MUST be protected, so I have no wish for SAA pilots to be forced into paycuts.

That said:

TooBadSoSad said:
Don't talk twaddle. You are the reciprient of many years of collective bargaining at SAA. You had nothing to do with your current fortunate salary, because
You are obviously still a first officer and will not really be taking those enormous decisions. Still, you earn as SFO10 more than any other captain in the country (outside SAA).

I have perused SAAPA's MOP agreement. It is a wonderful example of years of collective bargaining experience, but unfortunately does not take the realities of living in SA into account.

Like I said before in this thread. Don't let Seabury and SAA management take away what you have managed to collect over the decades, but don't try to justify your salaries to other pilots in this country. You can't. Especially not as an FO.

My contempories in SAA are now short range captains. They sacrificed and ate up years of cr@p as FO's and are now well-off. I took a different route in life and am very happy where I am now, so don't try to dismiss me as a wannabe.

Nugpot, your comments show that you are either a single pilot operator or else have no idea what CRM is - when the sh:mad:t hits the fan in a multi crew environment then both crew members contribute to the successful resolution of the situation, not just the Captain!!

I also know of a few situations, both in SAA and outside, where the experienced first officers actions possibly saved the day, and in some cases definitely did.

As for
I see you are quick to jump to conclusions when you know nothing about the author!!

and
if I had joined any other airline in the country I would have been a senior Captain at any one of them, so stop feeling sorry for yourself and get on with your life. Why do you even bother reading this thread if all you can do is take swipes at any SAA pilot who responds to it??

And don't even try to insinuate that you have any idea about the MOP formulation - otherwise we'd be very interested to get your take on PPP, POM, NDI and market movement methodology, not to mention where you see yourself benchmarked in the commercial sector using the HAY unit methodology?? :hmm:

I am sure it is your obvious inferiority complex that saw your application to SAA land up in the "do not hire" file!!

I'll obviously have to draw pictures.
I agree, but you said:
You don't make the decisions - you might take part in them.

You said you have only been there 10 years. Most of these agreements go WAY back.

Au contrare. I was only taking a swipe at you.

Now you are guilty of not knowing the author. I happen to be well informed on all your agreements and can also throw around abbreviations and terms. Not that that would make me look clued up, for that I would need some sound arguments.......

Must have been. ;)

Well said Nugs
 

Toobadhowsad,

I have to agree with Nugs on this one. I personally think the Kempton park flying club pays it's pilots too much and this is surely a burden on the company, (note the company, not the tax-payer). However, the unions have worked for many, many years to achieve these salaries and they will have to decided if it is in their interest to reduce them in order to save the company from a untimely demise, (al-a Swissair, Sabena, Varig to name but a few) or to force the company to go hat in hand to the government, (Read TAXPAYER), for yet ANOTHER bailout. Because it is the taxpayer who provides the bailout!!

I notice you said that the union has offered to reduce entry level salaries. What would this achieve when they are not hiring?? (No body at the entry level, nothing to reduce:hmm: .Surely trimming a little fat from the upper echelons would serve more purpose. This would have to apply to the oxygen thieves and jam stealers as well as airframe drivers.

Should SAA ever truly become a private, profit driven organisation,(;) I think there will be many unhappy campers in the pilot ranks. F/o and Cpts.

Strange! I know of one person who has been called to an interview and a sim ride in April

[QUOTE][/
Strange! I know of one person who has been called to an interview and a sim ride in April
QUOTE]



Like always at SAA..."THE INTERVIEW PROCESS CONTINUES"

GormanInkarnati, if you are glad not to be at SAA is that maybe because you happen to fly for a wholly owned subsidiary of SAA?? And don't worry about the SAA pilots - Government just injected R4 billion into SAA which should keep the airline afloat for at least 4 years based on the current loss situation, including being able to pay us SAA pilots our huge salaries which are totally undeserved!!

SAA and what it is.
 

Think people have lost the plot some what.

SAA is a state controlled loss maker in a devolping african country.

Think the salaries should be comparied accordingly? Air Zim/Air Bots/Air Malawi etc

If the shareholders of United/Delta/American/Continental feel that their pilots and staff need to take a 40%, yes 40%, pay cut to stop the their airlines going broke, maybe time for the only shareholder of SAA, yes thats me the taxpayer, to do the same.

Time to cut the coat to fit the cloth friends. We gotta build roads, schools, hospital and get more police. Every cent wasted on keeping SAA in the air is money that is not spent on what the country, as a whole, needs.

Shape up or ship out. When SAA makes a REAL profit, the staff can think again.

Which shareholders of the 4 US airlines you mentioned? Are you totally ignorant or do you not realise that all 4 of those US airlines have recently been through a chapter 11 reorganisation, a legal option not available to SA companies where the US company gets to return aircraft and renegotiate leases, cancel pension plans and layoff employees almost at will, but subject to court approval.

Why does every half wit underpaid pilot in SA think that it is the SAA pilots who are the cause of the financial debacle at SAA. The cause is due to two related government dictates, EE and BEE!! EE has resulted in incompetent government officials putting incompetent management in place to run the airline (both white and non-white incompetent managers) who have absolutely no clue what a budget is or what good corporate governance is. They make major decisions on whims, not fact, and when they screw up they get shifted to other departments (ever seen that before?? ANC??).

Want examples: Try the SAA marketing department going about R100 bar over budget last year, not to mention sponsoring every useless sports team they could think of as well as any major sports event that Khaya and his cronies felt obligated to attend.

Then there is the MD11 freighter which was contracted by the total idiots running SAA cargo and which has lost about as much as the overspend in marketing.

Then there are the real geniuses who decided that SAA's passengers needed a first class experience in business class so they took out all the business class seats and replaced them with lie-flat first class type seats, but at the same time could only fit one of the new seats in business class for every two original business class seats they had removed, so there went just under half of SAA's business class revenue. That alone equates to almost R1 billion a year out the window.

Then you have BEE whereby every outsourced contract has to have ....??? - That's right!!....BEE components, so SAA lands up paying 30% more for everything and gets half the quality. Ask any SAA pilot when they were last issued with a uniform........some have not had a uniform issue in three years!

So if you really think that knocking R200 million off the SAA pilot wage bill is going to make any difference to SAA being profitable or a loss maker, think again.

Now all of you piss off and go and start a thread titled "I'm not an SAA pilot and I'm extremely jealous of their salaries and benefits so I'm going to give you my half-brained opinion as to why they should be paid less money"!! :{

Well Said TooBadSoSad.....

Nice one Brother
 

Gotta Love that response from TooBadSoSad :} :} :}

SAA will come right!
 

I’d like to offer my opinion to all the SAA salary bashers who have taken the trouble to voice their heartfelt emotions on this thread. Perhaps I can provide a positive angle on a rather negative subject. SAA has set the salary benchmark for airline pilots in this country for the past few years, and everyone else down the line will follow – good or bad! SAA is the number 1 choice for any pilot in South Africa. Why - because the pilots are the best paid, and fly the latest equipment. There are only a certain number of positions available and, as in any competitive environment, only the top performers are selected. Even the guys/gals who fall into their respective population groups are the top performers respectfully. Unfortunately, this means not everyone can be selected. To those who managed to get in to SAA, fantastic, well done! If you’re a white male and you got into the company, you’re the very best of what the market has to offer. If you didn’t get into SAA, there is enough room in our industry to accommodate the overflow, yes a very definite second choice for anyone honest enough to admit it, but sadly for less money, and on older equipment. That’s just the way life works, and no amount of winging is going to change that. Please stop badgering us because of your own misfortunes, and be proactive about your own careers if you’re not happy. If you’re a senior captain in a competitor airline, negotiate parity with us, after all you do the job just as well as we do. If you’re a youngster with ambitions to get into SAA, start by not listening to all the negativities around race and colour, and focus on achieving your objective. With a bit of self-belief you’ll surprise yourself. These are turbulent times we are facing at SAA, but I have no doubt that once the dust has settled, expansion will be on the cards. To my disgruntled colleagues in the South African industry, I wish you all the best in the careers you have chosen. To the contented others, enjoy this wonderful career which has chosen you. Happy landings.:ok:

Missing the point, again
 

SAA doesnt need bankruptcy protection as in Chatper 11, cause I just give it more money. I wonder what the response here would be if at the end of the month SAA didnt have money to pay salaries?

Having been in both union and management, I can tell that most airlines DO NOT look at SAA pay scales as a benchmark, they are simply considered absurd as a comparison.

Face facts, the airline is approaching broke!!! The silly part is COMAIR etc pays company tax to keep SAA afloat. And rememmber COMAIR a public company.

It shocks me that the response to the fact that SAA is a great big hole that I throw money into, is that its about jealousy!! Kinda childish response guys. We are all here to make money and a better life for all.

I am amazed that some people seem to think that 'cause they work for the state that there is no reason to make a profit. In fact to the point they seem to think they have some god given right. SAA has never been profitable, so to blame BEE for the current mess is silly. In fact most of SAA management has been white.

SAA has burned over R12 billion in the last few yrs. This has come out of my pocket.

Remember the fat salaries paid to the mostly under worked staff at SAA cost EVERYBODY in South Africa. Please note, this is not only aimed at the flight deck. Know a few people that work in other sections of SAA, the money is crazy by any standards.

I have repeatedly said the pay cuts and retrenchments must apply to all the staff. SAA needs to right size itself. If it cant, go broke.

Take the pain now, privatise the state controlled airlines and let the market play out. Sure there will be pain for all short term, but at the end, we will all end up with a healthy industry.

Having sat and once more read through this whole thread, a glaring truth stands out way above the rest as a point of concern.

First remember that I am not an airline pilot, therefore falling into the sub-human category. SO - I have no vested interest in any side of this thread.

The underlying truth of the matter here is that it seems SAA drivers consider themselves as being 'better' than other drivers. A 10000 hour commander, whether it be SAA,Comair, Nationwide doesnt matter. You are a 10000 hour commander. You are not better because you work for SAA, you just got the opportunity when the company needed to hire pilots.

The biggest problem here is the perception that earning more money than the guy next to you, makes you a better pilot/person. Codswallop. You remain a mortal being, who will fail to get it up one day, who will too, forget his children's names and end up dead and buried in the same soil as your counterparts, and decomposed with the help of the same organisms. you are not earning what the company feels is your personal worth, you are being paid the company standard. Working for a large company, earning a large salary, is no reflection on you as an individual. The guy next to you is being paid the same, regardless of his colour, creed, or "good piloting skills".

The sooner a man values others for their personal worth, that cannot be meanured by bank balances, sports cars or which decade your equipment was manufacured, the sooner little bickering matches like this can be solved without having to resort to petty name calling, panty wetting and general unfound arrogance.

When you are lying there in the ground, I promise you that the worms are not going to choose an SAA corpse over any other. We are all just humans, that might work for different entities, but trust me here, the employer dont make the man.