Airlink Accident in George 7 December '09
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No Punkah Wallahs in Africa then?
If the water treatment is true and here it is not more than a totally unproven rumour -then Emb tech manual must ask whether brake or wheel deformation had occurred and also if this might have been a contribution effect in the two Emb 135 runway accidents/incidents/crashes what you choose to call them? AFAIK the J41 does not have a MFD so perhaps that excursion is something else altogether - which it might have been.
If the water treatment is true and here it is not more than a totally unproven rumour -then Emb tech manual must ask whether brake or wheel deformation had occurred and also if this might have been a contribution effect in the two Emb 135 runway accidents/incidents/crashes what you choose to call them? AFAIK the J41 does not have a MFD so perhaps that excursion is something else altogether - which it might have been.
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Had very hot brakes in NBO on the 747-200F many moons ago. Yes, water was used, apparently no ill effects. Water truck was hooked up to potable water tank, filled to overflow, hose attached to overflow valve, hose pointed at brakes creating a mist/fog.
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Cool!
Perhaps Boeing would have approved, perhaps different materials were used for construction.
However it is a fact that Embraer Technical Support in Brazil most certainly do not approve of this technique.
Perhaps Boeing would have approved, perhaps different materials were used for construction.
However it is a fact that Embraer Technical Support in Brazil most certainly do not approve of this technique.
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"Cool" well, brake temps were high orange and rising... I suppose we could have waited a few more mins to go into the red and watch the 16 MLG go "phhhhht"
Steel brakes.
I was answering to
Don't assume.
Steel brakes.
I was answering to
I desperately hope the above post re: water on the brakes, is a joke !
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I think that there must be the assumption that in the course of an approach to a high temperature sited wet runway, subtle and gradual changes of atmospherics, temparature and humidity have taken place during the course of descent and in the round out itself?
What Embraer seem not to want is exactly the sort of shock teatment that would be involved in tipping a bucket of water or dribbling a bottle of water over over temping brakes.
As Embraer say here:
____________________________________________________________ __
'The wheel and brake system are composed by different type of material (metals and carbon ) with different thermodynamic behavior, therefore IN NOT RECOMMENDED and APPROVED any
procedure to force the brake temperature to cool down. As it can deform and change the mechanic proprieties.
The only recommended procedure is to release the parking brake (a/c on the chocks) until the brakes cool down as appropriate.'
____________________________________________________________ _____________
That seems pretty conclusive as far as the Emb 135 is concerned and it more or less coincides with what I would venture to call common sense. One must make ones own conclusions as to possible cause and effect that might be involved in this..
What Embraer seem not to want is exactly the sort of shock teatment that would be involved in tipping a bucket of water or dribbling a bottle of water over over temping brakes.
As Embraer say here:
____________________________________________________________ __
'The wheel and brake system are composed by different type of material (metals and carbon ) with different thermodynamic behavior, therefore IN NOT RECOMMENDED and APPROVED any
procedure to force the brake temperature to cool down. As it can deform and change the mechanic proprieties.
The only recommended procedure is to release the parking brake (a/c on the chocks) until the brakes cool down as appropriate.'
____________________________________________________________ _____________
That seems pretty conclusive as far as the Emb 135 is concerned and it more or less coincides with what I would venture to call common sense. One must make ones own conclusions as to possible cause and effect that might be involved in this..
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I would not wish to make speculations as to an alleged airline practice which is not approved by the manufacturer and connections with accidents. But if you read between the lines you will see that Embraer-Europe technical support do not recommend or approve of the idea and do think that there might be an adverse reaction.
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For those not familiar MFDs and brake temp indications here is a handling suggestion and some notes.
Aircraft land.
Clears runway.
After landing checks.
Depending on Ops manual. Brake page selected on MFD. If you have adouble MFD then you can have the brake page and the fuel page up. Whatever you like.
Brake temperatures may be green or orange at this stage. Numerical temperature display depends on system installed on aircraft.
Taxxiing in to stand. Brake temperature 'usually' stay fairly stable-possibly due to forward motion air flow.
On stand, on chocks, park brake off. It is at this point that on the MFD the temperatures can start rising.
In other words, on the aircraft that I have flown with MFDs, the likely time for higher than normal brake temp occurrs when the aircraft is slow and approaching dock or on stand.
The airports of specific reference here are Naples, Rome, Milan and Elba (short runway ) in summer, so not cool at all. Had the hot brake indication not rapidly reduced of own accord once parked, we would have called engineering either at station or at home base. No doubt at some stage if the problem continued, engineering would have requested guidance from manufacturer.
Aircraft land.
Clears runway.
After landing checks.
Depending on Ops manual. Brake page selected on MFD. If you have adouble MFD then you can have the brake page and the fuel page up. Whatever you like.
Brake temperatures may be green or orange at this stage. Numerical temperature display depends on system installed on aircraft.
Taxxiing in to stand. Brake temperature 'usually' stay fairly stable-possibly due to forward motion air flow.
On stand, on chocks, park brake off. It is at this point that on the MFD the temperatures can start rising.
In other words, on the aircraft that I have flown with MFDs, the likely time for higher than normal brake temp occurrs when the aircraft is slow and approaching dock or on stand.
The airports of specific reference here are Naples, Rome, Milan and Elba (short runway ) in summer, so not cool at all. Had the hot brake indication not rapidly reduced of own accord once parked, we would have called engineering either at station or at home base. No doubt at some stage if the problem continued, engineering would have requested guidance from manufacturer.
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Certainly not and I have no idea what is in the conversion course or where it is even undertaken.
The point of the post is here.
In other words, on the aircraft that I have flown with MFDs, the likely time for higher than normal brake temp occurrs when the aircraft is slow and approaching dock or on stand.
But you may with pleaseure call it a pointless post but then I am not at all sure why you replied to it.
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The only relevance was an inquiry to Embraer technical support as to whether they recommended or approved of the procedure of pouring water on the brakes to cool them. The reply from Embraer-Europe technical Support has been quoted. The rest was just discussion, exchange of information, pointless or otherwise.
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Water on brakes??
Pour water on brakes on my a/c and I am gonna run a country mile
Not the done thing. I don't know any manufacturere that recomends this procedure. (Of course I have not flown every type, so I could very well be wrong, and am ready to be corrected)
Not the done thing. I don't know any manufacturere that recomends this procedure. (Of course I have not flown every type, so I could very well be wrong, and am ready to be corrected)
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I agree fully with Sir Osis of the river!
I would not allow anyone to pour water on my brakes whilst hot! Unless the MANUFACTURER prescribes that practice! Maybe Link should consider longer turnaround times or fit thrust reversers? What is the manufaturer recommended turnaround time for this type?
I would not allow anyone to pour water on my brakes whilst hot! Unless the MANUFACTURER prescribes that practice! Maybe Link should consider longer turnaround times or fit thrust reversers? What is the manufaturer recommended turnaround time for this type?
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I am distrubed to hear that the 'water on the brakes' techneque is back. I asked a captain at the time if I could pour cold water on the hot brakes of his new BMW. He got the point. Not that I believe it had anything to do with the failure to stop in FAGG.
As for the no reverser discussion. They add about 400kg's to the empty weight, thats four pax, I can see why they were never ordered as an option.
Just a thought, what if the air/ground logic failed? No ground idle, no spoilers and I think no brakes either.
Sadly I think all these incidents/accidents are just symptomatic of problems at Airlink created by management. They have saved themselves into a string of very public events that must be costing them a fortune.
As for the no reverser discussion. They add about 400kg's to the empty weight, thats four pax, I can see why they were never ordered as an option.
Just a thought, what if the air/ground logic failed? No ground idle, no spoilers and I think no brakes either.
Sadly I think all these incidents/accidents are just symptomatic of problems at Airlink created by management. They have saved themselves into a string of very public events that must be costing them a fortune.
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"Cost" saving.....
The results of Airlink's cost saving are very apparent. J41, gone! Embraer 145 damaged to a huge degree. How does this tie in with money saved? Maybe the insurance money received was lucrative? Surely, and certainly my thoughts may well be wrong, but how can the sum total of all RF's cost saving under the authority of his very specifically selected JVJ, be more than the money he has lost through two CRASHES and a few other incidents? RF's way of making a company achieve good profits is certainly 'different'! I wonder what the big companies who have large stakes in Link think of his lackey who he appointed to hurt the pilots? Yes, he certainly does achieve much in that direction, but at what cost for that personal satisfaction?
The latest audit by the Aviation Authority yielded apparently no anomalies! A very few technical aspects of maintenence, which can in any case everywhere be improved upon with all airlines, and no wrong doings with the flying side! Wow, truly amazing! What a terrible spate of bad luck then, huh?
My contact inside (reliable and trustworthy and non-emotional) tells me, there is nothing going on inside to change anything. Management are extreemly happy with the way the company is being run and don't intend to change anything! In fact they seem to have 'battoned down the hatches' and are riding out the storm!
The Legacy of Capt S.L. will remain intact and shiny simply because he was employed to make "recommendations". This he will do, make no mistake, in the best usable detail. However, what gets done about his recommendations is entirely a different story. Do the Aviation Authorities ever get to see his recommendations? Hell No!!
How will RF act on the recommendations? Well lets see: Mmmm, this will cost extra, leave that for now. This will cost nothing or virtually nothing, certainly do that! Also, anything which will be visibly seen by the press and travelling passengers as a change, do that!
The underlying causes which affect the safety of the passengers and people on the ground will not change!
The brief will certainly include: "Remember to say nice things to your staff! This costs nothing. I want to see briefings/notices/certificates/lauded honours/public company applause to all staff", as long as it doesn't include an increase of cost. Keep the profit at a maximum for the shareholders!
Capt S.L. you can start walking away now already shacking your head thinking to youself "Why won't he listen?!" He is using you in his very accomplished strategy. Look and learn my learned friend and true champion of aviation.
Remember RF, you might despise your pilots as much as you like, but it is them who have warned you- "The big one is coming", and then you won't have just one dead pilot.
The latest audit by the Aviation Authority yielded apparently no anomalies! A very few technical aspects of maintenence, which can in any case everywhere be improved upon with all airlines, and no wrong doings with the flying side! Wow, truly amazing! What a terrible spate of bad luck then, huh?
My contact inside (reliable and trustworthy and non-emotional) tells me, there is nothing going on inside to change anything. Management are extreemly happy with the way the company is being run and don't intend to change anything! In fact they seem to have 'battoned down the hatches' and are riding out the storm!
The Legacy of Capt S.L. will remain intact and shiny simply because he was employed to make "recommendations". This he will do, make no mistake, in the best usable detail. However, what gets done about his recommendations is entirely a different story. Do the Aviation Authorities ever get to see his recommendations? Hell No!!
How will RF act on the recommendations? Well lets see: Mmmm, this will cost extra, leave that for now. This will cost nothing or virtually nothing, certainly do that! Also, anything which will be visibly seen by the press and travelling passengers as a change, do that!
The underlying causes which affect the safety of the passengers and people on the ground will not change!
The brief will certainly include: "Remember to say nice things to your staff! This costs nothing. I want to see briefings/notices/certificates/lauded honours/public company applause to all staff", as long as it doesn't include an increase of cost. Keep the profit at a maximum for the shareholders!
Capt S.L. you can start walking away now already shacking your head thinking to youself "Why won't he listen?!" He is using you in his very accomplished strategy. Look and learn my learned friend and true champion of aviation.
Remember RF, you might despise your pilots as much as you like, but it is them who have warned you- "The big one is coming", and then you won't have just one dead pilot.
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I understand that the so called "savings" is not only pilots thats effected so is all the groundstaff. The so called "increase" is in fact no increase at all , it even effects the provident fund.
They must have a labourlaw inspection as well.
No wonder there is such a huge staff turnover.
Pay peanuts....get monkeys.
Must say the staff that I dealt with , are friendly , most of them go the extra mile , but ........dont they just feel .......why must I do anything extra and the company dont look after us anyway??? Even heard ..if you don't wanna work like that or complain...you get sacked.
They must have a labourlaw inspection as well.
No wonder there is such a huge staff turnover.
Pay peanuts....get monkeys.
Must say the staff that I dealt with , are friendly , most of them go the extra mile , but ........dont they just feel .......why must I do anything extra and the company dont look after us anyway??? Even heard ..if you don't wanna work like that or complain...you get sacked.
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[QUOTE]As for the no reverser discussion. They add about 400kg's
They apparently carry 200 kg's ballast or more on all flights to get the c of g in the envelope. Apparently aircraft is nose heavy due to the galley configuration in the front.
They apparently carry 200 kg's ballast or more on all flights to get the c of g in the envelope. Apparently aircraft is nose heavy due to the galley configuration in the front.
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Instructors interviews
Posted by TOOLOWTERRAINPULLUP
[quote][I have no doubt that CAA will ask the usual questions such as what is done during training etc. instead of asking the questions that really should be asked...........]
Just heard from a friend at Link that CAA now has a requirement for the Link instructors to do psycometric tests and interview with CAA. Does anyone know if this is now going to be a standard requirement for all the airlines, or is the the result of one of their reccommendations for Link only?
[quote][I have no doubt that CAA will ask the usual questions such as what is done during training etc. instead of asking the questions that really should be asked...........]
Just heard from a friend at Link that CAA now has a requirement for the Link instructors to do psycometric tests and interview with CAA. Does anyone know if this is now going to be a standard requirement for all the airlines, or is the the result of one of their reccommendations for Link only?
Last edited by Sky Bolt; 31st Dec 2009 at 10:07.
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Leadership in Airlines
I often wonder about the position of Chief Pilot at any airline. Certainly it is a precarious position in terms of loyalty. However in the case of Scarelink I think the CP leans toward siding with the top management on all issues, if not only for pure self-preservation!
When the bean-counters start prescribing to the pilots on how to fly the airplanes you are going 'South'. These venerable sages might be quick minded, but they are not qualified pilots and never will be! (Pilots don't earn enough money for the bean-counters insatiable desire)
At link, non-flying professional persons do ask and demand and prescribe to the pilots what to do. "Why did he turn back and not just finish the leg?".
"They will use this system of navigation planning". [My buddy at so/and/so wrote this program and I need to support him......]
The Chief Training Captain came from where with what relevant experience AND management experience???
Finally how much time is required for the storm to blow over before we can resume normal Link operations?
Capt. S.L. you will still see what you are up against, just wait, not much longer now before your requested service is "done" and you are no longer required. Then the big guns who all belong to the aviation "Lodge" will be unfettered to continue.
Guys and girls.... Link will NOT change to ever become a proper airline. Get your experience and get out as RF requests you to do and get a proper AIRLINE job! There are plenty of good airline jobs outside of SA!!!
When the bean-counters start prescribing to the pilots on how to fly the airplanes you are going 'South'. These venerable sages might be quick minded, but they are not qualified pilots and never will be! (Pilots don't earn enough money for the bean-counters insatiable desire)
At link, non-flying professional persons do ask and demand and prescribe to the pilots what to do. "Why did he turn back and not just finish the leg?".
"They will use this system of navigation planning". [My buddy at so/and/so wrote this program and I need to support him......]
The Chief Training Captain came from where with what relevant experience AND management experience???
Finally how much time is required for the storm to blow over before we can resume normal Link operations?
Capt. S.L. you will still see what you are up against, just wait, not much longer now before your requested service is "done" and you are no longer required. Then the big guns who all belong to the aviation "Lodge" will be unfettered to continue.
Guys and girls.... Link will NOT change to ever become a proper airline. Get your experience and get out as RF requests you to do and get a proper AIRLINE job! There are plenty of good airline jobs outside of SA!!!
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Same ol' same ol'
My close contacts (3) at Airlink tell me that management are happy with where they are now again. Most all the dust has settled, press have been very loathe reporting anything unless it is completely false and can immediately be countered by RF.
Capt. S.L. has been very very quiet. No doubt close to the end of his task by now. They tell me he is rather frustrated. Mmmm, curious. Him coming from an environment where, when anything needs to be done correctly and is necessary, it 'gets done'! Nice environment to play in. Now it's always easy to point fingers from that protected environment isn't it? "Look at that bunch of Hooligans pilots at Link! No one can call them professional. You wouldn't see THAT here at SAA"!
Now however, the boot's on the other foot! See what the rubbish Link pilots have been up against for soooo long now, Capt?
You do seem to have a bit of a nose-bleed there old chap! NO offence meant at all, but I believe you have met your match at Link!
Two sayings are relevant here to the image of Link.
1) Talk is cheap. Money buys the whisky.
2) The proof of the pudding is in the tasting thereof.
Your legacy IS now at stake. I believe you're going to walk off thinking "This is a lost cause; let them stew in their own self-generated juice". "My sympathies to all the good crew at Link........"
Capt. S.L. has been very very quiet. No doubt close to the end of his task by now. They tell me he is rather frustrated. Mmmm, curious. Him coming from an environment where, when anything needs to be done correctly and is necessary, it 'gets done'! Nice environment to play in. Now it's always easy to point fingers from that protected environment isn't it? "Look at that bunch of Hooligans pilots at Link! No one can call them professional. You wouldn't see THAT here at SAA"!
Now however, the boot's on the other foot! See what the rubbish Link pilots have been up against for soooo long now, Capt?
You do seem to have a bit of a nose-bleed there old chap! NO offence meant at all, but I believe you have met your match at Link!
Two sayings are relevant here to the image of Link.
1) Talk is cheap. Money buys the whisky.
2) The proof of the pudding is in the tasting thereof.
Your legacy IS now at stake. I believe you're going to walk off thinking "This is a lost cause; let them stew in their own self-generated juice". "My sympathies to all the good crew at Link........"