Airlink Accident in George 7 December '09
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Wonder what the surface texture depth is at George.
ICAO recommend > 1.0mm -grease patch test.
Some factors which affect aquaplaing are tyre condition and pressure.
The critical speed for dynamic hydroplaing increases with the square root of the tyre inflation pressure. So-if you are the taddy bit fast and your tyres are a little over filled.......testing the boundaries perhaps?
The dropping out of anti skid or maxaret at low speeds is not, I think, a fuinction of speed but more one of the wheel spool down-but that may change from one aircraft to the other.
ICAO recommend > 1.0mm -grease patch test.
Some factors which affect aquaplaing are tyre condition and pressure.
The critical speed for dynamic hydroplaing increases with the square root of the tyre inflation pressure. So-if you are the taddy bit fast and your tyres are a little over filled.......testing the boundaries perhaps?
The dropping out of anti skid or maxaret at low speeds is not, I think, a fuinction of speed but more one of the wheel spool down-but that may change from one aircraft to the other.
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Cover Up
Reading all the stuff above about the 'incident' at George is very interesting....but one issue which, although probably a small thing, still baffles me.
The initial press release issued by the AIRLINK identified the aircraft involved as being ZS-SJX....which it clearly wasn't as can be seen by a plethora of photographs which quickly appeared everywhere, before someone obliterated the registration marks (as seen on the picture spread across front page of the Cape Times a day after the event)
Now WHY would this be done? What purpose is served by hiding the aircraft's registration when this is bound to become known sooner rather than later. Should I smell a rat? I know there has been the odd case where airline names et al have been painted over at a crash scene (to obviously minimise bad publicity) but by obliterating the registration marks in this case (even though the official AIRLINK press release actually quoted a registration mark, albeit an incorrect one) makes me wonder.
In today's Sunday Times there is a postage stamp sized picture of what the aircraft (ZS-SJW!)looks like after its removal from the road....Are there better pictures around anywhere?
The initial press release issued by the AIRLINK identified the aircraft involved as being ZS-SJX....which it clearly wasn't as can be seen by a plethora of photographs which quickly appeared everywhere, before someone obliterated the registration marks (as seen on the picture spread across front page of the Cape Times a day after the event)
Now WHY would this be done? What purpose is served by hiding the aircraft's registration when this is bound to become known sooner rather than later. Should I smell a rat? I know there has been the odd case where airline names et al have been painted over at a crash scene (to obviously minimise bad publicity) but by obliterating the registration marks in this case (even though the official AIRLINK press release actually quoted a registration mark, albeit an incorrect one) makes me wonder.
In today's Sunday Times there is a postage stamp sized picture of what the aircraft (ZS-SJW!)looks like after its removal from the road....Are there better pictures around anywhere?
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Rumoured to have happened with the Titanic and her sister ship. Hull fraud springs to mind. Of course, not the same here.
Sure, aquaplanning can occur at low speeds. It happens especially on take off run, well below V1 as the weight starts to comeoff the nosewheel and directional control is lost.
Also there is reverted rubber skidding. It is like viscous skidding and happens with a thin film of water and a smooth runway. It is usually a continuation of dynamic or viscous hydroplaning where the wheels are already locked. Enough heat is generated to vaporise the underlying water film and this forms a cushion of steam and so, no tyre to runway contact.This (RRS) will continue right down to very low speeds and there will be no steering either.
You can check for if RRS happens by white marks in runway surface or also reverted rubber (so the name of it) on the tyre.
Hum Ho! Anyone done a runway inspection at George lately?
Sure, aquaplanning can occur at low speeds. It happens especially on take off run, well below V1 as the weight starts to comeoff the nosewheel and directional control is lost.
Also there is reverted rubber skidding. It is like viscous skidding and happens with a thin film of water and a smooth runway. It is usually a continuation of dynamic or viscous hydroplaning where the wheels are already locked. Enough heat is generated to vaporise the underlying water film and this forms a cushion of steam and so, no tyre to runway contact.This (RRS) will continue right down to very low speeds and there will be no steering either.
You can check for if RRS happens by white marks in runway surface or also reverted rubber (so the name of it) on the tyre.
Hum Ho! Anyone done a runway inspection at George lately?
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Dealing with Airlink delinquent pilots
Knowing someone who previously had to deal with them in past years, I can assure you the following will apply:
1) Sit tight and don't give an inch or concede to anything
2) If the chances are good to not be caught out, lie whenever necessary
3) While they are down, apply further gentle pressure to the throat. Just do it in a subtle manner
4) Grease works very well in this industry, especially when confronted with any authorities, normally applied to the palm.
5) When the public are howling for your blood, blame the pilots directly!
6) Remember at all times: Never give any recognition to the pilot's value, ever! This will cost you dearly if you do.
This whole past few months debacle will be glossed over shortly and will go away on its own. Whenever new changes have to be implemented to increase profit, there will always be a few logistical problems to be dealt with, like currently the press etc. Simply deny and accuse them in return of being ill informed and not understanding the detail.
Never ever allow the pilots to be heard and listened to by the authorities. Make sure you always have a brown-mouth lackey ready to answer their questions in detail.
It certainly is imperative to have all paperwork (as prescribed in detail) in order. This way you can face any challenge by saying "Look, all is in order as is required"! We are not at fault. Here is the proof. Etc.
Remember, safety can be used to make huge profits if you just ensure you have not done anything which can be shown to be in contravention of the law. You do not have to have a safe-at-any-cost enterprise, but no fingers must be able to be pointed at you. Understand how to stretch the rules without breaking them; this is where most of your money lies.
At all times aggressively use the maxim: "If you don't like it here, leave". This has almost a 100% certainty of making them feel guilty and not resisting your profiteering.
As in all politics, using a heavy hand usually douses any thoughts of resistance.
When deemed necessary, employ an axe-man to implement distasteful policies. The reputation of one JVJ (he must chuckle every time his name comes up in the reference of pilots) is laudable.
1) Sit tight and don't give an inch or concede to anything
2) If the chances are good to not be caught out, lie whenever necessary
3) While they are down, apply further gentle pressure to the throat. Just do it in a subtle manner
4) Grease works very well in this industry, especially when confronted with any authorities, normally applied to the palm.
5) When the public are howling for your blood, blame the pilots directly!
6) Remember at all times: Never give any recognition to the pilot's value, ever! This will cost you dearly if you do.
This whole past few months debacle will be glossed over shortly and will go away on its own. Whenever new changes have to be implemented to increase profit, there will always be a few logistical problems to be dealt with, like currently the press etc. Simply deny and accuse them in return of being ill informed and not understanding the detail.
Never ever allow the pilots to be heard and listened to by the authorities. Make sure you always have a brown-mouth lackey ready to answer their questions in detail.
It certainly is imperative to have all paperwork (as prescribed in detail) in order. This way you can face any challenge by saying "Look, all is in order as is required"! We are not at fault. Here is the proof. Etc.
Remember, safety can be used to make huge profits if you just ensure you have not done anything which can be shown to be in contravention of the law. You do not have to have a safe-at-any-cost enterprise, but no fingers must be able to be pointed at you. Understand how to stretch the rules without breaking them; this is where most of your money lies.
At all times aggressively use the maxim: "If you don't like it here, leave". This has almost a 100% certainty of making them feel guilty and not resisting your profiteering.
As in all politics, using a heavy hand usually douses any thoughts of resistance.
When deemed necessary, employ an axe-man to implement distasteful policies. The reputation of one JVJ (he must chuckle every time his name comes up in the reference of pilots) is laudable.
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Any news to what caused the crash at George. Saw Airlink pilot's pouring water onto their brakes the other day at Nelspruit. Apparently it helps to cool the brakes for rapid turn-arounds.
Is that a normal Embraer procedure?
Is that a normal Embraer procedure?
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Pouring water onto hot brakes, at least on a car, is an act of utter stupidity as it is likely to cause warping and cracking of the discs or drums.
I would guess, and it is only a guess, that aircraft brakes are the same, but I could be wrong.
I would guess, and it is only a guess, that aircraft brakes are the same, but I could be wrong.
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If it is written in the Emb 135 checklist that the drill for a brake overheat is to chuck a lot of water over the wheels, then it must be fine.
Best drop Embraer a line and ask them for technical support in that regard?
Embraer Commercial Jets
Best drop Embraer a line and ask them for technical support in that regard?
Embraer Commercial Jets
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Blaming management because you over ran the runway is like blaming your parents when you are a 50 year old loser. There is only one person to blame, the captain allowed the aircraft to over run. Nobody else. RF didn't do it, JVJ didn't do it. Nobody else.
If I was a passenger on that aircraft the last thing I would have done before I got off would have been to give him a PK. Hope someone does.
I wish pilots would stand up and take some responsibility. Pprune is ruled by whinging twits wanting to blame the management of the operator and bitching about how hard life is. Grow up, its pathetic.
If I was a passenger on that aircraft the last thing I would have done before I got off would have been to give him a PK. Hope someone does.
I wish pilots would stand up and take some responsibility. Pprune is ruled by whinging twits wanting to blame the management of the operator and bitching about how hard life is. Grow up, its pathetic.
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Hearty second here for Fuzzy Lager!
The last three Airlink accidents have, from what we as airline pilots might deduce quite possibly and conjecturably been due to pilot error in one form or another. I do not know much about the Ndola incident but runway over runs tend to raise an eyebrow, same machine type as at George?
But how much vitriol will be thrown upon the pilot who writes on these pages that another pilot is possibly at fault and thus calls another's airmanship in to question? We may yet see!
Let us not forget the concepts Primacy/Recency and Threat/Error. The firts of which lies within the remit of an airline training separtment.
If all three or four crashes/accidents are the fault of pilot error within a small airline, then there is definitely a reason to look at the training section and the chief training captain and any other training captains or line trainers whch the company might have as well as their recruitment and rostering policy. So if you blame the flight crew, you extend the envelope of potential culpability. So far so good or so horrendous!.
It is silly to compare, as some papers have done, aircraft with trains and taxis. The general public transport system is not subject to the same regulation as the aircraft industry. If you want it to be so, then write to your member of parliament or perhaps you'd rather reduce the standards of the aviation industry to that of the wandering taxi? That is all a ridiculous red herring.
From what I have read on these pages, I don't think that Link will do anything except continue to duck and dive, as well they might and why not? It would be is a disgrace though to aviaton in SA if have not been pulled up sharp and hard. Its not a run of bad luck. Its two crashes and two accidents in six months? The only 'luck' is that passengers or more people on the ground were not killed. Have there been satisfactory explanations either from Link or the Department of Transport. Also, I have to wonder to what conclusions, if any, Embraer and BAES have arrived at.
Not that anyone is probably required to explain anything but then the public is entitled to draw its own conclusions from any silences. Sorry, if I take off the cap with the oak leaves and clusters around the brim I unofficiallyy, privately and on a totally personal basis see no reason to suspect anything but multiple negligences and a tub of white wash - and no, I don't fly for an Airlink competitor. Airlink probably have no competitive equal in civil aviation anywhere in the world for the number of accidents or crashes in the shortest period of time?
The last three Airlink accidents have, from what we as airline pilots might deduce quite possibly and conjecturably been due to pilot error in one form or another. I do not know much about the Ndola incident but runway over runs tend to raise an eyebrow, same machine type as at George?
But how much vitriol will be thrown upon the pilot who writes on these pages that another pilot is possibly at fault and thus calls another's airmanship in to question? We may yet see!
Let us not forget the concepts Primacy/Recency and Threat/Error. The firts of which lies within the remit of an airline training separtment.
If all three or four crashes/accidents are the fault of pilot error within a small airline, then there is definitely a reason to look at the training section and the chief training captain and any other training captains or line trainers whch the company might have as well as their recruitment and rostering policy. So if you blame the flight crew, you extend the envelope of potential culpability. So far so good or so horrendous!.
It is silly to compare, as some papers have done, aircraft with trains and taxis. The general public transport system is not subject to the same regulation as the aircraft industry. If you want it to be so, then write to your member of parliament or perhaps you'd rather reduce the standards of the aviation industry to that of the wandering taxi? That is all a ridiculous red herring.
From what I have read on these pages, I don't think that Link will do anything except continue to duck and dive, as well they might and why not? It would be is a disgrace though to aviaton in SA if have not been pulled up sharp and hard. Its not a run of bad luck. Its two crashes and two accidents in six months? The only 'luck' is that passengers or more people on the ground were not killed. Have there been satisfactory explanations either from Link or the Department of Transport. Also, I have to wonder to what conclusions, if any, Embraer and BAES have arrived at.
Not that anyone is probably required to explain anything but then the public is entitled to draw its own conclusions from any silences. Sorry, if I take off the cap with the oak leaves and clusters around the brim I unofficiallyy, privately and on a totally personal basis see no reason to suspect anything but multiple negligences and a tub of white wash - and no, I don't fly for an Airlink competitor. Airlink probably have no competitive equal in civil aviation anywhere in the world for the number of accidents or crashes in the shortest period of time?
Last edited by Der absolute Hammer; 15th Dec 2009 at 06:00.
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Not quite sure here if anyone really knows which government agency is responsbile for which function. Anyway, the taxis have nothing to do with it.
I do not see why one has to work for a company or for anyone close to them in order to be able to form an unbiased opinion based upon the information generally available. In the fact of the matter, I would have thought that someone with absolutely no connection with the company concerned might be more impartial than someone whose opinions are often coloured with prejudice and insult.
I do not see why one has to work for a company or for anyone close to them in order to be able to form an unbiased opinion based upon the information generally available. In the fact of the matter, I would have thought that someone with absolutely no connection with the company concerned might be more impartial than someone whose opinions are often coloured with prejudice and insult.
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hi guys, girls, captains, generals, whatever..! Having perused through the thread, and a few key points on "Airlink crash" would be nice to have some facts on:
- has anyone on the forum been able to confirm either with the crew or via FDR data (if any of us were that lucky to see it), WHAT the DIRECT CAUSE (i.e. the physical reason/cause of the accident) of the accident was...? Any FACTS please....?
- As for the DOT/Minister and the CAA as to whom takes responsibility, it is the ministry that does via DOT and only then CAA. Remember, SACAA is an extention of the DOT which is governed by the Minister (under the DOT) so the minister acted wisely in this which can be supported. It is A great day in aviation that real caution is used before just "grounding an airline" by the minister....
- in a time like this, as "difficult" as it is, we have to work on the evidence/facts of the accident. Without assuming anything, it is interesting to see that 12+ maintenance related issues were found that needed to be corrected. how sure are we that pilot "error" was to blame for this accident. If it was, then it is of utmost importance that the pilot/crew in question needs to share their experience with us so we can learn (hopefully) from it.
Anyway, food for thought and let's see some fact/evidence related comments.
Apollo20
- has anyone on the forum been able to confirm either with the crew or via FDR data (if any of us were that lucky to see it), WHAT the DIRECT CAUSE (i.e. the physical reason/cause of the accident) of the accident was...? Any FACTS please....?
- As for the DOT/Minister and the CAA as to whom takes responsibility, it is the ministry that does via DOT and only then CAA. Remember, SACAA is an extention of the DOT which is governed by the Minister (under the DOT) so the minister acted wisely in this which can be supported. It is A great day in aviation that real caution is used before just "grounding an airline" by the minister....
- in a time like this, as "difficult" as it is, we have to work on the evidence/facts of the accident. Without assuming anything, it is interesting to see that 12+ maintenance related issues were found that needed to be corrected. how sure are we that pilot "error" was to blame for this accident. If it was, then it is of utmost importance that the pilot/crew in question needs to share their experience with us so we can learn (hopefully) from it.
Anyway, food for thought and let's see some fact/evidence related comments.
Apollo20
Apparently that is normal practice according to one of my mates at Link.. Even the Chief Pilot does it..
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Such a procedure is neither recommended nor approved as it could change and deform the mechanic properties.
The only recommended drill for a brake over temperature is to release the park brake, with the aircraft on chocks, and wait until the brakes cool down, presumably as indicated on the MFD.
The only recommended drill for a brake over temperature is to release the park brake, with the aircraft on chocks, and wait until the brakes cool down, presumably as indicated on the MFD.
Last edited by Der absolute Hammer; 16th Dec 2009 at 16:43.