Media report on SA pilot exodus
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777Contrail
Well 777 seeing as SAA is one of the oldest Airlines in the world I think they do have a right to exist, and had things been done correctly we would be a world leader.
Make no maistake 777 and AV if you think Emirates is not subsidised you are horribly mistaken, it must be easy to run an airline with free oil.....I am looking forward to the day that the oil wells run dry and you guys have to survive like the rest of us, maybe then you can go to the middle east forum and bitch about your woes instead of finding us here on the African forum and trying to justify your move to the desert
Their present employer has no right to exist, not to mention compete with the rest of the world's remuneration.
Make no maistake 777 and AV if you think Emirates is not subsidised you are horribly mistaken, it must be easy to run an airline with free oil.....I am looking forward to the day that the oil wells run dry and you guys have to survive like the rest of us, maybe then you can go to the middle east forum and bitch about your woes instead of finding us here on the African forum and trying to justify your move to the desert
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I fail to understand Avi8tor's issues with the SAA pilots- why do you blame us for the "so called" over-payment for our services. These were negotiated over time with a lot of blood, sweat and tears from SAAPA and the negotiating teams -Management was present you know? but I am sure that you know the history?
Your issues must be surely with the bad management that has run SAA into the ground, not once but 3 times (counting post 94) Also your blogs should go to the ANC run goverment that continually interfered with the operation of this airline. Just because we stayed strong and negotiated good deals amongst these good promises and bad executions by management/goverment should not now be held over our heads?- we are being paid what is market related! no more or less! and this was acieved by good negotiation skills and unity between the pilot group.
Hey, maybe you are one of "THEM"? from the goverment/management?- yup -that must be it judging by your obsession with these SAA/SA -pilots forums. You are obviously posted by "THEM" to try and salvage some concessions that "THEY" can't negotiate themselves in the normal negotiating forums. Bring everyone down to the lowest common demominator if you can't compete on the higher lever?
Your cover is blown Avi8tor- your location is probably in Pretoria or Kemptonpark. Were you MK trained or was it by the communists in Cuba? Anyway comrade Avi8tor, viva saa pilots viva!!!
Your issues must be surely with the bad management that has run SAA into the ground, not once but 3 times (counting post 94) Also your blogs should go to the ANC run goverment that continually interfered with the operation of this airline. Just because we stayed strong and negotiated good deals amongst these good promises and bad executions by management/goverment should not now be held over our heads?- we are being paid what is market related! no more or less! and this was acieved by good negotiation skills and unity between the pilot group.
Hey, maybe you are one of "THEM"? from the goverment/management?- yup -that must be it judging by your obsession with these SAA/SA -pilots forums. You are obviously posted by "THEM" to try and salvage some concessions that "THEY" can't negotiate themselves in the normal negotiating forums. Bring everyone down to the lowest common demominator if you can't compete on the higher lever?
Your cover is blown Avi8tor- your location is probably in Pretoria or Kemptonpark. Were you MK trained or was it by the communists in Cuba? Anyway comrade Avi8tor, viva saa pilots viva!!!
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The way I see it Av and 777 is that I pay nearly half of my "over Inflated" salary to the tax man, at least I contribute to the society I live in, you guys live there tax free contibuting nothing to anyone but yourselves and you have the cheek to wave the flag for the tax payer....yes call me cynical but seems to me the only selfish Bastards (there does not seem to be a moderator these days) out there are the guys living abroad tax free
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the middle east forum and bitch about your woes instead of finding us here on the African forum and trying to justify your move to the desert
Were you MK trained or was it by the communists in Cuba? Anyway comrade Avi8tor, viva saa pilots viva
SAA is one of the oldest Airlines in the world I think they do have a right to exist, and had things been done correctly we would be a world leader
I say again, get the industry on a level playing field. If SAA doesn't make it, so be it. Open the door for somebody that can. We, as pilots, will be better off.
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Fluffyfan,
The age of an entity does not give it a right to exist.
In nature, the older you are, the closer to death you get.
It's the old thing about addapt or die. SAA has shown over the last 15 years that they cannot addapt. The bussiness is a dinosour and if it doesn't change, and I mean drastically, it must go extinct.
If you read my posts again you'll see, I think the SAA pilots are compensated rightly. If you take the environment they live and work into acount, I'll even say they're underpaid.
BUT. SAA cannot pay those sallaries.
SAA a world leader?!! Don't make me laugh! If they are well run they can at best be a good regional airline. SA isn't located geographically to be a through-hub like Dubai, and the population is too small for the country to be a major central-hub.
Talking about Emirates.
They isue a far more complete set of results every year (on time mind you), than any SAA ever cooked up.
Even though they are privately owned and do not have to isue ANY results.
Go have a look here: http://www.ekgroup.com/AnnualReports/Index.asp
The age of an entity does not give it a right to exist.
In nature, the older you are, the closer to death you get.
It's the old thing about addapt or die. SAA has shown over the last 15 years that they cannot addapt. The bussiness is a dinosour and if it doesn't change, and I mean drastically, it must go extinct.
If you read my posts again you'll see, I think the SAA pilots are compensated rightly. If you take the environment they live and work into acount, I'll even say they're underpaid.
BUT. SAA cannot pay those sallaries.
SAA a world leader?!! Don't make me laugh! If they are well run they can at best be a good regional airline. SA isn't located geographically to be a through-hub like Dubai, and the population is too small for the country to be a major central-hub.
Talking about Emirates.
They isue a far more complete set of results every year (on time mind you), than any SAA ever cooked up.
Even though they are privately owned and do not have to isue ANY results.
Go have a look here: http://www.ekgroup.com/AnnualReports/Index.asp
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thincatblue. deal with it, it's payback time. Viva ANC viva.
Av. enjoy reading your posts, and agree to some extent with some of what you say. Doesn't it bug you that no one gets it. maybe the lobotomy thing is correct.
When you join SAA, they tell you on the orientation week. " You guys must have doubled your salaries just by being here. then you go on a night stop and they throw more money at you. You cant even spend it all. "
So maybe its time to throw some of that money back at the company so they can survive.
Av. enjoy reading your posts, and agree to some extent with some of what you say. Doesn't it bug you that no one gets it. maybe the lobotomy thing is correct.
When you join SAA, they tell you on the orientation week. " You guys must have doubled your salaries just by being here. then you go on a night stop and they throw more money at you. You cant even spend it all. "
So maybe its time to throw some of that money back at the company so they can survive.
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Oom
Same here, no matter what we say nobody seems to get it, we seem to be going around in circles.
I am bored of this
As I said 777 its easy to make money, build Islands, huge buildings etc when you drill a hole and oil flows out the ground for free, just enjoy the desert while you are there, seems you have problems too 30% inflation, traffic problems and a stengthening Rand, hope you enjoy it, I will take my chances here, if the restructuring works SAA can only go up.
Who is talking about SA being a Hub? we are a destination, in fact the SA economy makes more money on tourism than it does through Gold production.....so although its all gloom and doom at the moment and who is surprised it happens to every airline that goes through restructuring...there is hope
Doesn't it bug you that no one gets it. maybe the lobotomy thing is correct.
I am bored of this
As I said 777 its easy to make money, build Islands, huge buildings etc when you drill a hole and oil flows out the ground for free, just enjoy the desert while you are there, seems you have problems too 30% inflation, traffic problems and a stengthening Rand, hope you enjoy it, I will take my chances here, if the restructuring works SAA can only go up.
SA isn't located geographically to be a through-hub like Dubai, and the population is too small for the country to be a major central-hub.
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Fluf I agree with you. this is now boring. lets start a Comair bashing thread, Maybe everyone will leave SAA alone for a short while. very much doubt it though.
Oof to sim again
Oof to sim again
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Tax Free ?
FluffyFan (guess your name refers to your wifes little white poodle) because you aint got 'Attitude' as a boeing man would
My comment is rather you leave the tax free subject alone. I suspect you have very little or no knowledge at all on what you are talking about. What do you do with your forex that you dont use? yeah thought as much so rather shut up about being an upstanding member of the S.African community doing the right thing by the tax man.
I wonder how PRO SAA you would continue to be if they dumped your ass right outa there?
Hay, ever thought one day you might be waving goodbye to the wife and kids on your way to the desert (sorry and fluffy)
My comment is rather you leave the tax free subject alone. I suspect you have very little or no knowledge at all on what you are talking about. What do you do with your forex that you dont use? yeah thought as much so rather shut up about being an upstanding member of the S.African community doing the right thing by the tax man.
I wonder how PRO SAA you would continue to be if they dumped your ass right outa there?
Hay, ever thought one day you might be waving goodbye to the wife and kids on your way to the desert (sorry and fluffy)
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SAA
Following all these various threads about the future of SAA and its crews brings out a common thread. Those who are worried about their jobs(SAA crews) and those who obviously are not SAA employers.
What I find difficult to comprehend is the attitude of those who are clearly trying to defend their positions, and SAA, in these interesting times.
Having never worked there -or applied to join them, I get the feeling that they are a greedy bunch who are not prepared to negotiate their highly inflated salaries-in the South African context, that is.
When a company is bankrupt and only surviving due to it being a national carrier, with government support(and plenty of it), its irrelevant how hard they fought for their current package etc etc-times are tough. Face the reality of it-stop blaming management and negotiate a realistic salary package or move on.
If their salaries were not so drastically out of kilter with the rest of SA, it would be a different story.
I find it difficult to sympathise, given the hard facts. We all have friends working there and we all know how much you earn-give or take a thousand or two.
I see BA announced profits today of 580 million pounds odd....interesting.
Havent ever seen figures like that from SAA except when Coleman sold the 737-200's to Safair and leased them back.
I'm not trying to nail SAA pilots but their predicament is pretty obvious to everyone except themselves.
What I find difficult to comprehend is the attitude of those who are clearly trying to defend their positions, and SAA, in these interesting times.
Having never worked there -or applied to join them, I get the feeling that they are a greedy bunch who are not prepared to negotiate their highly inflated salaries-in the South African context, that is.
When a company is bankrupt and only surviving due to it being a national carrier, with government support(and plenty of it), its irrelevant how hard they fought for their current package etc etc-times are tough. Face the reality of it-stop blaming management and negotiate a realistic salary package or move on.
If their salaries were not so drastically out of kilter with the rest of SA, it would be a different story.
I find it difficult to sympathise, given the hard facts. We all have friends working there and we all know how much you earn-give or take a thousand or two.
I see BA announced profits today of 580 million pounds odd....interesting.
Havent ever seen figures like that from SAA except when Coleman sold the 737-200's to Safair and leased them back.
I'm not trying to nail SAA pilots but their predicament is pretty obvious to everyone except themselves.
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Fluffyfan,
I've given you the link to go and check for yourself how the Emirates Airline and the Emirates group is run, but you obviously decided to ignore that and continue with your ignorance.
For your info, Dubai never had much oil and what they had is all but used already. But unlike Africa the ruling family decided to use what they've got and build something more.
Emirates started 22 years ago with 2 leased aircraft and US$30mil.
(So you'll say they're not old enough to count)
For the 30mil investment the "family" received US$2,1Bil back.
The main difference between Emirates and other airlines are:
1. Aircraft utilisation. 25% Saving
2. Tax free work force. 30%+ Saving
This makes them the second best airline when comparing cash cost per seat/airmile. Only Ryanair is lower cost based.
Up to now I tried to stay with the topic but you insisted on straying into the sand all the time.
The guys that's still with SAA are the last ones to MENTION state funding.
Now back to the topic.
There's a war of atrition coming worldwide. Some shots have been fired already and in SA the blood will flow.
It's al about the last airline left to operate (have enough pilots).
I feel Comair have the will and setup to win out.
They will just have to start looking after their crew.
Show them the money!
I've given you the link to go and check for yourself how the Emirates Airline and the Emirates group is run, but you obviously decided to ignore that and continue with your ignorance.
For your info, Dubai never had much oil and what they had is all but used already. But unlike Africa the ruling family decided to use what they've got and build something more.
Emirates started 22 years ago with 2 leased aircraft and US$30mil.
(So you'll say they're not old enough to count)
For the 30mil investment the "family" received US$2,1Bil back.
The main difference between Emirates and other airlines are:
1. Aircraft utilisation. 25% Saving
2. Tax free work force. 30%+ Saving
This makes them the second best airline when comparing cash cost per seat/airmile. Only Ryanair is lower cost based.
Up to now I tried to stay with the topic but you insisted on straying into the sand all the time.
The guys that's still with SAA are the last ones to MENTION state funding.
Now back to the topic.
There's a war of atrition coming worldwide. Some shots have been fired already and in SA the blood will flow.
It's al about the last airline left to operate (have enough pilots).
I feel Comair have the will and setup to win out.
They will just have to start looking after their crew.
Show them the money!
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Guys, were off the topic. If I live in Jumeira or Waterkloof at present, who cares. South Africa is where most of our hearts are.
South Africa needs a HEALTHY strong airline industry. The guts of it is we need to level the playing field. Let the airline/airlines with the best business model win out. BA has announced awesome profits, they fly out of JNB, so do Virgin.
It says that SAA is going something very wrong. As I said in the previous post, SAA has awesome loads and market yields, so that leaves costs to tackle.
"....never in the field of human endeavor, have so many done so little for so much".
The golden rule in airlines is that you never have more staff than u have seats in your aircraft. I did the exercise pax'ing to CT, when I was there on holiday last, and around 9500 seats.
Once you have the numbers right, get the salaries inline with what people in SOUTH AFRICA will work for. The government says the unemployment number is like 25%, but I would guess closer to 40%.
Once SAA stops looking like a basket case, PRIVATISE!!! Then the shareholders will throw out piss poor management. You maximise profits by growing the airline. Then SAA can step up to the plate and get a chance to bat against EK, VS, BA etc.
South Africa needs a HEALTHY strong airline industry. The guts of it is we need to level the playing field. Let the airline/airlines with the best business model win out. BA has announced awesome profits, they fly out of JNB, so do Virgin.
It says that SAA is going something very wrong. As I said in the previous post, SAA has awesome loads and market yields, so that leaves costs to tackle.
"....never in the field of human endeavor, have so many done so little for so much".
The golden rule in airlines is that you never have more staff than u have seats in your aircraft. I did the exercise pax'ing to CT, when I was there on holiday last, and around 9500 seats.
Once you have the numbers right, get the salaries inline with what people in SOUTH AFRICA will work for. The government says the unemployment number is like 25%, but I would guess closer to 40%.
Once SAA stops looking like a basket case, PRIVATISE!!! Then the shareholders will throw out piss poor management. You maximise profits by growing the airline. Then SAA can step up to the plate and get a chance to bat against EK, VS, BA etc.
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mikemal
Afrikaans Sunday paper Rapport reports today on the whole SAA issue and in the article it is mentioned that Mike Malherbe has resigned to join an Oz airline as chief training captain. What a loss for SAA!
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I agree, a sad loss. MM is one of the brightest people I know. But he and C have been out of SAA before. The world didn't come crashing down. It will give somebody else a chance to shine. Lets NOT be scared of movement in the industry.
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World hunts SA pilots
World hunts SA pilots
Nov 05 2007 08:01 AM
Nellie Brand - Sake24 and Lizel Steenkamp - Rapport
Cape Town - South African Airways (SAA) is prepared to lose a third of its pilots to restructuring - well knowing that there is a big shortage of trained pilots worldwide and that it will not be able to replace the highly skilled group.SAA itself had described the possible retrenchment of 224 pilots as "a nightmare scenario", but the good news was that talks with the unions had progressed so well that the move could possibly be averted.
But Robyn Chalmers, head of SAA Corporate Affairs, added that should the talks "lead to absolutely no savings, SAA would consider retrenching (the pilots)".
Fin24's sister publication Rapport said role-players in the industry were dumbstruck by SAA's plans to retrench up to 225 of its 783 pilots, while 12 000 posts were being advertised worldwide.
The proposed retrenchments were part of SAA's restructuring plans to cut its labour costs by R638m.
Captain Jimmy Conroy, chairperson of SAA Pilots' Association (Saapa), said since SAA's restructuring plans became public, foreign airlines pounced on South Africa for its pilots.
The Dubai airline Emirates, looking for 450 pilots, had already held five promotional tours in South Africa.
Cathay Pacific of Hong Kong needs 200 pilots and also they came to recruit in South Africa.
Bhabhalazi Bulunga, SAA Manager: Human Resources, confirmed that nine pilots had already resigned and that another eleven had accepted retrenchment packages.
Conroy said pilots - with an average 23 years' experience - were uncertain of their future with SAA.
"If they go, the country will be losing highly trained people who are very difficult to replace," said Conroy.
To train one pilot costs at least R700 000 and it takes about 13 years for a pilot to be promoted to captain.
Conroy said although SAA could save money in the short term, there would be dire consequences in the long term.
"If our own pilots leave because they don't see a long-term future for themselves here, we'll have to go and recruit on the international market. Firstly, you don't know what you are getting, and secondly you have to pay them in euros or dollars."
- Sake24/Rapport
Nov 05 2007 08:01 AM
Nellie Brand - Sake24 and Lizel Steenkamp - Rapport
Cape Town - South African Airways (SAA) is prepared to lose a third of its pilots to restructuring - well knowing that there is a big shortage of trained pilots worldwide and that it will not be able to replace the highly skilled group.SAA itself had described the possible retrenchment of 224 pilots as "a nightmare scenario", but the good news was that talks with the unions had progressed so well that the move could possibly be averted.
But Robyn Chalmers, head of SAA Corporate Affairs, added that should the talks "lead to absolutely no savings, SAA would consider retrenching (the pilots)".
Fin24's sister publication Rapport said role-players in the industry were dumbstruck by SAA's plans to retrench up to 225 of its 783 pilots, while 12 000 posts were being advertised worldwide.
The proposed retrenchments were part of SAA's restructuring plans to cut its labour costs by R638m.
Captain Jimmy Conroy, chairperson of SAA Pilots' Association (Saapa), said since SAA's restructuring plans became public, foreign airlines pounced on South Africa for its pilots.
The Dubai airline Emirates, looking for 450 pilots, had already held five promotional tours in South Africa.
Cathay Pacific of Hong Kong needs 200 pilots and also they came to recruit in South Africa.
Bhabhalazi Bulunga, SAA Manager: Human Resources, confirmed that nine pilots had already resigned and that another eleven had accepted retrenchment packages.
Conroy said pilots - with an average 23 years' experience - were uncertain of their future with SAA.
"If they go, the country will be losing highly trained people who are very difficult to replace," said Conroy.
To train one pilot costs at least R700 000 and it takes about 13 years for a pilot to be promoted to captain.
Conroy said although SAA could save money in the short term, there would be dire consequences in the long term.
"If our own pilots leave because they don't see a long-term future for themselves here, we'll have to go and recruit on the international market. Firstly, you don't know what you are getting, and secondly you have to pay them in euros or dollars."
- Sake24/Rapport
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To train one pilot costs at least R700 000 and it takes about 13 years for a pilot to be promoted to captain
No shortage of pilots in SA, ask all the guys stuck on contract.